Isaac
Years ago

LeBron vs Oscar Robertson, adjusted stats

Thought these couple of paragraphs in ESPN's Daily Dime today were interesting:

And for as much as we hear about the great Oscar Robertson's triple-double season of 1961-62, LeBron's current numbers dwarf the Big O's when adjusted for pace of play. Back when Oscar got his 3D, teams averaged 118 points and 71 rebounds per game. Today, they average just 99 points and 41 boards.

Back in March, when ESPN's brainiacs in the Stats & Information department compared LeBron's stats to Oscar's, they told me LeBron would average 40 points, nearly 15 rebounds and 9.6 assists in the up-tempo, shot-happy game of 1961-62. Oscar, on the other hand, would average 21.7 points, 8.4 assists and 6 rebounds today.
Daily Dime #1: LeBron Taking His Game Even Higher

Records are one of the reasons I don't love the idea of the NBL's possible shift to 40 minute games. Teams will quickly beat the 'Lowest team score' record, but when will anyone be able to top 40 points, 20 boards, 10 assists, etc? How much harder will it be for a player to beat various records for made baskets, threes and free throws?

The other week, Ben Fitz dropped me an email about a great statline from Jason Kidd and I bet there's similar talk generated by great numbers in the recent NBL too ("Luke had 20+ boards, you should've been there!"). I just can't imagine the same amount of word spreading when getting 7 boards is quite good, or breaking 20 points is pretty decent, or 6 assists is the game high.

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Pirie Panthers  
Years ago

When we've had the teams come to port Pirie to play with 12 minute quarters & clock stoppages on everything, it creates a MASSIVE following of the statistics.

I always run commentary throughout the game and when Scott Arnold came home with what we dubbed his All-Stars team, he hit 40 points & 4 dunks - There was a mini hysteria & it gave everyone the opportunity to see a great spectacle which was talked about for ages.

If we had played the standard game he may have reached 25 at best...

Also to add it's an expensive trip to travel from Pirie to Adelaide to watch one 36ers game lasting approx an hour and a half. I doubt I'll be able to make the extra effort on a 40 minute game, it's too expensive.

Leave it at 12mins per quarter plus full championship games & have a pre-game!

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LA Boy  
Years ago

words are 40min is set unfortunately.

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TR  
Years ago

Like hell I'm travelling to Woollongong from Canberra to watch 40 minutes of basketball..

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playtime  
Years ago

yes - that proves what I always says - today's modern players are much better then the old timers .. is not far on Big O to be compared to a megastar like the great LeBron

Even the so called "greats" of yesterdays would only be average player today. Gusy like Doc J, Bird, Magic - maybe they would be at T-Macs or Dirk's level if they played today

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Quagmire  
Years ago

I don't think it will be a problem actually.

It will be an adjustment for sure, but could we see a shift towards the european style of supporter, the one who cheers for the players who make the big plays, not the guys who perhaps dominate the stats?

I remember reading a report from Childress in Europe where he received aclaim for rotating quickly in D which forced the other teams best shooter to kick it around to the next guy, a poorer shooter who missed the open look. Childress's team won the game and he was heralded even though he scored a modest point total.

With the stat factor diminished will we see more fans taking note of who is making the plays that win games?

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Isaac  
Years ago

How big are the crowds at Euro games?

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Quagmire  
Years ago

Well thats the big question.

I just don't think it will be too hard for the fans of the game now to adjust.

The only fear i have is that the fringe fans will be turned off saying things like- 'the oz league is so weak they can't even play full games...'

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LA Boy  
Years ago

playtime- that same thought came across my mind many times over the last few years, but to put Magic and Dr J down to T-Mac and Dirk level? I think you missed a bit there (while I've always thought Bird's overated).

I think many stars back then will not flourish in the league today but the superstars will have no difference.

eg. Magic still played up against MJ before retirement, MJ still dropped a 50+pt game coming out of 2nd retirement.

Something else worth considering is the level of play is higher as a direct result of better training knowledge and technology etc. if the players back then was to live and play today, theoretically they would also raise their level of play? this is an interesting argument that'll probably end up nowhere...

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Young Gun  
Years ago

On old v new players, I read a quote from Lindsay Gaze saying that he watched some Olympic game tape from USA v Russia in the early 70's & he said that you wouldn't even consider those players for an NBL team.

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playtime  
Years ago

a dominant centre like Superman Howard would do Wilt like numbers if he played back then !!

Imagine what the greatets Kobe would do? - probably win 11 titles like that Russell guy (who may be as good as Boozer in today NBA)

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LA Boy  
Years ago

but the question is: given the same "basketball education" and physical preparation, would those older players be as good as the modern era players?

It's just like in swimming, the new swim suits start to make records irrelevant

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Beantown  
Years ago

Hey playtime, you are overplaying your argument to say guys like Magic, Dr J, Bird, etc would be average players today.

If they were so average, why did it take Jordan seven years to even make the NBA finals, let alone win? If Bird and Magic were able to dominate an 80s league when guys like Jordan and Dominique couldn't, they must have been able to play just a little bit don't you think?

There are so many problems with comparing different eras. Imagine the difference proper diets, strength and conditioning training, and modern medical and surgical procedures could have made to the ability of Oscar, Magic, Bird, McHale, etc?

Another guy who excelled in the 90s, but only got past the Lakers once in the 80s was Olajuwan. And guess who rolled him in the '86 finals?

You think Jordan and Olajuwan wouldn't dominate in todays league? I'd take them ahead of Kobe and Duncan everytime.

Oh yeah, and just to stay on topic: I hope it isn't true that they are going to 40 min NBL games. It will be too short for spectators. I still prefer 48 min games.

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Quagmire  
Years ago

Question- does changing the length of the game alter how many minutes the starters play?

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LA Boy  
Years ago

Quagmire- how would it not alter the length of time the starter plays. Sad thing is most NBL starters aren't playing enough time as it is.

Beantown- I'd second your call taking Olajuwan and MJ over Kobe and Duncan.

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Imagine what the greatets Kobe would do? - probably win 11 titles like that Russell guy (who may be as good as Boozer in today NBA)

wow

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hustle  
Years ago

I undestand how impressive LeBrons adjusted statline looks - 40ppg, 15rpg & 9.6apg - but technically it still isnt a triple-double average is it? Nit picking perhaps, but true.

I wonder what the adjusted statlines of other players would be, like Howard and Wade? Or Kobe's 35ppg season a few years back?

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BigTimePlayer  
Years ago

Hustler, Playtime and everyone else that is doubting the legends of the game, put this into consideration. NBA players today train much more than what the legends did back in the day, compaired to them.

Stats don't mean everything when there is more technology in trainings and all the training procedures.

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mr clutch  
Years ago

I'd like to see the numbers of todays players if the refs allowed the physicality of the 60s/70s. That's why decent pg's are looking like hall of famers since the changing of the handcheck rule. Honesty how does that little Barea wanker even crack a rotation much less be a difference maker in playoff game.

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Id like to see Dwight howard go against Wilt chamberlain, who was stronger taller and quicker than he is, and then see how good he would have been

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speedy  
Years ago

todays NBA players are wimps compared to yesterdays players - nowadays they cry off with a light sprain and the game is no longer physical with all those soft fouls and no hand checking - imagine Wade trying to lay up in the Bad Boys Detroit era that Jordan had to go up against - no pitty pat fouls like he had with Dallas that's for sure !!

I've watched the game through the years and it defintely is not the same game now - I realy hate those soft calls especially in playoffs - the only good thing they've done is allow the zone which enters the NBA into the international way

But the Jordan era of the 90s were something else - so many great players from MJ, Magic, Bird, Stockton, Malone, Dominiqe, Hakeem, Ewing, Isiah, Barkely, Worthy etc etc - not to mention the 2nd tier of Dumars, Price, Kevin Johnson, Mourning - we were so spoilt

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speedy  
Years ago

Besides its not just the physical attributes and training that make a great player - it's mental toughness and intrinsic feel for the game - neither Bird or Magic were the most athletic guys (even back then) but their mental toughess and "feel" for the game were uncomparable - MJ had BOTH the physical athleticsm and competative drive which made him the best ever

Now today's best players - Kobe breaks down when the going gets tough (last game of last year's finals)- Shaq looks for other teams in the middle of the season instead of trying to make his teams better

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Sebastian  
Years ago

Kobe isnt even the best player in the League this season!!!! How the hell can he be the greatest of all time. As stated previously, he is a selfish player who makes none of his team mates better.

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Quagmire  
Years ago

The thing about Kobe that people so quickly forget, is that if you add up his accomplishments minus the Shaq factor- he is left wanting.

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mr clutch  
Years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paex9-VxPbA&feature=PlayList&p=7C84680EE7C27E8B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=49

obviously the best ever

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