Dana,

it will never happen....

Come and say hi to me at a game some time, would love to put a face to the name...

Can't we all just get along? ;-)

Yeah, you kids play nice.

Yogee & Dana now there is a match made in heaven

Let's all get-together for a big hug and sing some Xmas Carols.
I'll bet I know who Dana's favourite ref is.
Peace on Earth

That's if you could ever pry him away from the score table.

Once again my point proven...people on this forum cannot have an intelligent debate without delving into personal attacks...thanks for proving my point...


At sturty6ers, you could at least get your facts right if you want to have a go at me, I have NEVER worked on a score bench!

IMO I think it's a little wrong in calling people out in a thread title. I'm all for expressing your opinion Dana, but calling someone out is just looking for trouble.

Maybe this issue needs to be sorted by a shoot-out (and I don't mean my work type of shoot-out) between Dana and thedoctor at the next game during half time.

At least let thedoctor have his reply before this rubbish is locked.

Oh and just for the sake of debate, I'm in the thedoctors corner on this one.

Seems you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't in this forum.
After reading comments about the thread about Erin Phillips going off topic, I tried to keep this one on topic.
Obviously I was wrong.
Oh shit! Did I actually say I was wrong??
Oh my God!!! Apparently I would never say that?
I think gangin up against people who happen to have the courage to express a different point of view is not all that far from becoming cyber bullying. And I reckon this place has the potential to let that kind of behaviour happen.
It's a shame that so many people who post on here think that it's OK to send anonymous 'barbs' at others.
Luckily, people who actually have some credibility happen to have supported me.

"Isn't it wonderful that we're all unique individuals?"

Seriously, everyone has a different take on this supporter thing. Everyone wants and takes something different from sport, whether they're fanatics, analysts, customers or a mixture of all of these things.

Interestingly, Nino (who you'll see post here) is one of the biggest fanatics I know, but also one of the strongest analysts. Everyone's different.

And the differences are always going to be there. Fanatics will call the analysts "fairweather fans" if they dare put forward criticism. Analysts will respond that fanatics are blindly accepting mediocrity when change or improvement might be needed. Customers will just walk away silently if they don't like the product or have to prioritise other expenses.

No club is going to prosper with one group alone. Perhaps the solution is just to recognise that these loose categories exist and keep that in mind in all discussions?

I don't have a favourite ref HR and it's interesting that you think you know who it is, cos I sure as hell don't.
But I guess I'm not as clever as you.

If only that were true Isaac.

What do I do??

Well ike Dana, a lot of people on this forum seem to think they know me inside out, especially my own thoughts, so I guess I'll let them.

As far as if your asking my occupation, when you post your correct full name and occupation, then I might think about it.

If your asking what I do at the basketball, well...gee where I sit is pretty obvious when I'm there.

If only what were true? Please read my full post (which was updated after the first line).

Dana, one of your original posts spoke of not taking things personally and not letting posts be a reason to get worked up? Uve gone to the trouble of writing an in depth story of your basketball life and called out a fellow poster via a link featuring his alias in the heading! Hate to see your reaction when your worked up and taking something personally!


And for the record thedoc would work Dana in a 3 point shoot out using the Chief's Hook Shot alone!

"The one thing that is guaranteed is that one team wins and the other one loses."

Its called a draw Dana, a draw.

... and after draws on consecutive nights, I can vouch for that VC !

Maybe worm you could assist by helping me work out which personal comments I shouldn't take personally?

never thought a forum would have me in tears....bloody hell.

If this forum has you in tears then maybe it's time to re-evaluate if it's beneficial to stay.

At the end of the day it's a debate which isn't even face-to-face, and to be honest, it's not that confrontational. I've seen far far worse on Ozhoops, and 100 times worse on realgm, and 1000 times worse on the streets.

In todays society people are never going to agree, some people are conservative and don't rant and rave, some just rant and rave, some are diplomatic in how they express themselves, some just punch you in the face cause your opinion differs from them, it's all of this that makes life interesting.

If a little debate and possibly some critisism or someone questioning your rationale behind things reduces someone to tears that maybe a step back needs to be taken.

Yogee, I tend to disagree with (#109884). There has been heaps of great intelligent debates on this site, and yes, sometimes a good debate will bring passion to people's post, but at the end of the day, unless you know that person in-depth do you really care what some random poster posts??

Dana, it is beyond ridiculous that you are in tears and I'm sorry if that's the case, but this is a debate as to whether a true supporter (whatever that means):

a) always cheers the team, never says anything negative, doesn't place blame etc etc - this is how I see you Dana

b) is critical when criticism is due, analyses the players/coaches/recruiting/advertising/everything and engages in discussion about it, calling it as they see it - this is how I see myself and many others

I believe either example can be a "true" supporter. What got up my nose in the Erin Phillips thread was the way Jimmy and yourself dismissed the idea that Erin may not be signed and that other teams may be pursuing, and that any person willing to believe otherwise was posting gossip and shit-stirring or whatever, when Isaac showed that she was indeed not signed. Your posting history suggests (note I say suggests) that you don't like the Sixers or Phil being criticised and will defend them to the end. I do read Jonno's summaries and this week there is a good example of this where you comment that Phil is being unfairly criticised for losses, as we have had injuries. So have Sydney and Melbourne and they are doing OK. You even commented that we had won 3 out of the last 10 and Jonno's summary portrayed it as is you thought this wasn't too bad. Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but 3/10? That's terrible!

And Dana, I never made any personal comments about you and did not pretend to know what's going on inside your head or Yogee's (I call this place Super-fun Happy Land) and you don't want to know what's going on inside mine - it involves a unicorn and two midget eskimos.

back on point - the only time I got remotely close to summarising your views was:

" Both you and Jimmy show an amazing ability to see the best in every situation and interpret everything in favour of Phil/Players/Club."

And you responded with

" Both you and Jimmy show an amazing ability to see the best in every situation and interpret everything in favour of Phil/Players/Club."
Hear hear!!!...there are plenty of us who think the same. And thank goodness there are.

So what's the problem?

One more thing Dana, you said:

"If being a supporter without voicing my concerns in a 'they're all hopeless' way means I have my head in the sand then so be it."

Well, what are your concerns? Not being sarcastic or anything else, just interested.

Lighten up, Yogee.

It would help a lot if everyone's comments were respected as their own personal views and not turned into a mud slinging fest aimed at individual posters. The Erin Phillips thread went way off track in that direction.

2 midget eskimos and a unicorn doc????

Now that is a happy place!

3 championships in 10 years is pretty damn good.

so was mark price in the NBA.....

Some concerns I have off the top of my head:
The fact that the team was in turmoil between seasons and the effect this had on ability to retain players such as Dusty & Jacob for example. Listening to Paul Bell, I got the impression that things were very much up in the air in Adelaide (which was still without an owner) and they weren't in a position to offer him more than a 1 year contract so he opted for longer term security with the Bullets, as anyone with a short term sporting career would do.
I see the body language displayed by Phil (even though it may often be quite justified) re some of the refereeing decisions. I have been heard to say, 'Sit down Phil before you get a tech foul'. I have raised this issue on the radio too. I remember when he first started coaching, he used to look relaxed and smiling on the bench. As some people on here have commented, his smiling face during timeouts more recently doesn't appear to match his body language. I call that 'incongruence' whereas some people would call it 'false'. My language is different.
I have concerns about players such as Cooper who seems to do very well on occasions with blocking shots, but for a big guy, he doesn't take anywhere near enough shots, even when he's open.
I have concerns about inconsistency in defence.
One of my big peeves is how badly so many NBL and NBA players shoot foul shots. They could definitely learn a thing or two from the WNBL players in this regard.
It concerns me when I see people walking out of the games when there is less than a minute left 'to get out of the car park'. As if 30 seconds will make a difference?
Sure when the 36ers lose, I fell disappointed, but I will still clap for them because they are 'my team'. My cheering at these times is to try to 'lift their spirits'. They obviously feel bad enough themselves as anyone can see.
My idea is to encourage them, not to shoot them down in flames.
I don't object to criticism, but I do object to the 'extreme' criticism as I sometimes see it as 'kicking a dog when it's down.'

Dana I don't think you will find many that are unhappy with the 3 premierships.

But many like me question the way the club has been allowed to be run down.

You have your view, I have mine.

If you were a great mother for 3 years out of 10 years of your kids lives wouldn't they have a right to question why there wasn't more effort etc in the other 7.

To debate it further is IMO pointless there are clearly divided lines.

Sorry Dana, I thought you meant 3 wins from the last 10 games.

Thanks doc...
Just goes to show how what we mean can so easily be misunderstood when all we get is the words on the screen.
Cheers!

Can't really see how being a parent compares with winning a basketball championship.

3 championships in 10 years is pretty good when you consider that Adelaide is not the only team in the league. All teams try to analyse the championship winning team and learn from it for next season. When a championship is not won, that is the time when all clubs look to make improvements for the following season. We have some great teams in the league this season and in the last 5 years. The competition is tough. I do not pretend to be an expert on what other clubs spend on getting the right players, but there has been many suggestions that some of them go over the salary cap. The ones that are suspected of being over the cap are the ones that are performing the best at present.

The fact that the 36ers are currently having the worst start to a season has not been properly analysed. There is issues regarding the off season, issues with injuries, issues with players failing to gel etc. The fact that the players feel bad about their performance suggests frustration and trying to work out where the exact problem is because I don't doubt for a minute that they want to fix it. A quote from Lanard Copeland;

"The way we've been playing, it's not fair to our fans, it's not fair to us and it's not fair to the city. We know we have the talent and now we have the urgency."

This does not sound to me like a team without heart.

Like Dana, I too don't pretend that everything is rosy at present. I walk away from a home game with much disappointment like everyone else when we lose. This disappointment is not anger at the way the team played, its sympathy towards them for not being able to get that much need win that would lift their spirits. Do people think the team is deliberately playing crap? They want to play well and win games just as much as the fans do if not more.

So as a hypothetical for those "supporters", if we continue to play the way we are and miss out on finals, what changes if any would you like to see next season???
If it's just been an "unlucky" season for us, would you want to keep the same team and coaching staff???
I would like to see maybe 2 or 3 players come back, some because of their play, some due to their contracts.
I think we lack some aggression and passion to the point of almost having none at all!

Well EC their body language and desire for the ball, their desire to play consistent defence, to chase the ball when they lose it. To stand up for teammates aka the "Hill" incident etc makes me feel they don't hurt as much as we'd like them to hurt.

Dana ok try this scenario then I'm employed by a company for ten years for three years I make them a six million dollar profit. For the other seven I lose money making a loss on every year with the losses mounting each year to a point where the company may no longer trade in the new year. Do I deserve to keep my job? Do I deserve not to be critised for my poor performance over seven years or do I point to my three good years and don't care that the company will go bankrupt?

I'd like to see some of the 'leaner' players build up some muscles so they're not just flicked aside. It might help lift their defensive intensity of they were stronger and could stand their ground a bit more than what they do.
Tony, that scenario might work if the 36ers hadn't made the finals every year. Also, what if the losses were down to things outside of the workers control, like paying back a loan to the government that was received before you even started working there?

Changes for the better are always made to the roster. There are players in this current team who will be sacrificed for a replacement. The fact that the team is failing to gel also means that while they are great individuals, they are not a great team together. A change for the better would be selecting a group of players that compliment each other and able to play together to achieve the best results.

Before this season began, a lot of people thought we have a better roster than we had in the last 3 years (minimal changes). This is the worst season so far in recent years. Much debate over whether you would take Horvath over Rychart, Forman and Holmes over Copeland and Majstrovich. Its not just an individual player who is better than another, its how they play together. The team of the last 3 years needed very little change to bring it into championship contention. The changes made this season are too great and resulted in backward steps being made.

Leaner players??? Who can I ask you are referring to? With a team where the average age is 35, I don't really think you'll see many of those body shapes changing! You may see some of the younger blokes put on a little bit but not much, not unless Darren Ng is going to prescribe them "suplements" if you get my drift! (insert Barry Bonds hitting another home run!)

Championship contention???

We have over achieved the last 2 seasons at least!

Very little change may have helped us get into the second round of the playoffs, but there is no way we would have beaten the top tier teams a la Melbourne/Brisbane/Perth....

If a lot of people thought we had a better roster this season, I and a lot of other people think that they were wrong!!!!

Dana if making a final eight in a 12 team comp makes you feel like your team has been a finalist for the past few years - whatever floats your boat.

Personally I think top 8 is a farce and we exited the finals in the first round each time was probably a just reward for the season.

EC, who do you consider accountable then for putting the current team on the floor? Are you not saying that an opportunity was missed last year to retain a very good core group (Forman, Holmes, Rychart) and add to it?

Yes, I would think Oscar and Jacob would be pissing themselves laughing at the moment.

Exactly panther. I do mean the youger guys.

And Dana, agree that we need players who can handle the physical game. That is the style endorsed by the league at every position but the ball handler - a current NBL ref was talking to me about this today.

The point is the league issues directives on how the games are to be reffed and the coaches are aware of this. Players should be recruited accordingly. No current player is going to stack on the muscle during the season, in fact I don't think it's really the size of the player anyway - more so the manner in which they play.

Someone like Dench, Boucher fit the mould. For us Horvath is tough and Wheeler likes to bang bodies but really no one else. Jacob is a tough inside player - could have used him this year.

I think we lost out big time in keeping both Oscar and Jacob at the club. These guys would have a very low points rating while they stayed with us which would have helped recruit higher profile players.
How about this for an example of a line up...

Starting 5
Mee
Maher
Powell/Roberts
Horvath
Wheeler

Bench
Copeland
Hill
Matt Knight
Damian Martin
Chris Molitor

Now don't jump up and down, this is only a suggestion.
It fits under the points rating from what I can see and with a creative accountant should fit under the salary cap, (again without really knowing exactly what these guys are paid it makes it hard).
Now that's a team with youth, experience and a bit of fire in the belly!!!

Younger even..Doh!
It makes me think about the likes of Erin Philips who has built up her strength so much so that she has a huge jump on her and manages to win the battle of many other players who are a fair bit taller than her.
I guess I would put Dusty in that class too. He's built up his strentgh so that he doesn't get pushed around.
I remember seeing the Lithuanian basketball team several years ago, full of younger players like Songaila, Macijauskas, etc who were really very 'lean' when they were here playing against the boomers.
Over recent years Songaila 'bulked up' and played significanlty better in the NBA until recent injury.
So what I am hoping is that there is some room for building strength in the Gym. Cooper could also do with some weights work.

Just remembered another thing..
The mere presence of Reesy in the keyway had a benefifial effect as far as defence goes. he wasn't young, but had real value in the team. Look at the Bear. He's not young and certainly intimidates others purely because of his physcial presence. It will be interesting to see how Timmons will effect this issue tonight?

I'd try this if Horvath gets the naturalisation through:

Groves/Sutton
Maher/Copeland
Newley/?
Horvath/college recruit (e.g., Knight)
Import/Cooper

I reckon you could get that under the cap.

Dana you have spoken about players needing to bulk up and get stronger well isnt this the responsibility of the coaching staff to say to a kid like Darren Ng
"mate I think you need to spend the off season in the gym". Set him a program and the right legal suppliments and change that body shape. Do the Sixers do this that is the big issue the majority of supporters have. Are the Sixers developing the kids they have in every possible way. That is physically and mentally to make them the best basketballer they possible can?

As far as Phil and his body language goes a few years ago we were winning so he should be happy but this year some of these blokes if not all just need a rocket. He should be so animated this year because he should be coaching harder this eason than he ever has before because his team is flat out struggling like never before.

And obviously you have never coached before because parenting and coaching ain't that far apart. Both you are moulding and devolping your "family" into the best individual thay can possibly be by teaching and arming them with the skills they need to be successful in a larger society.

And Dana I dont think you have been personally attacked at all. Your opinion and outlook have but questioned and discussed. Heading a post with another person as the title is getting close to it though.

thedoctor, the players we lost were going to leave regardless for reasons other than the club not strongly pursuing them. If anything I feel Smyth was being kind to them in letting them go as the situation in Adelaide was not good at the end of last season and he could see that their opportunities were going to be better elsewhere. Smyth is not God, I would not expect him to know which selection of players are going to gel before they even start training together. It takes years to get a good team together gradually making minor changes to address the issues of the previous season.

I would hope that the 3 players that left would not be laughing. Instead they would be greatful for the opportunities received in Adelaide and preparing them for the greater NBL. They were all sought after. Who do you attribute thanks to?

You come up with some very funny posts EC. That bit about the club being kind to players and choosing to let them go is one of your best ever lines.

Players were not going to leave regardless. They left because they weren't signed, became free agents, and received offers. Sign them before that and no club can legally approach them to tempt them across.

Sturty6ers...you chose to have a go at me, I am entitled to at least respond...especially when you dont get your facts right!

I agree with you EC on the point about 'who to attribute thanks to.'
when players such as Cat, Dusty & Mee have gone to other clubs and have thrived after doing very well here.

EC,isn't the point of developing young players to prepare them for the greater NBL with YOUR club not somewhere else! Id say the Sixers should be happy to prepare THEIR players for the greater BOOMERS not the Dragons or Breakers! (Yeah yeah I know thats the Kings job but it seems looking at the bright side is the theme of the week!)Why dont we just become the Adelaide Institute of Sport and concentrate on being the feeder NBL club for the rest of the league. Have the good young players for the first years of their careers when they are inconsistent and learning the game and let them prosper somewhere else as they mature and grow as players.

"It takes years to get a good team together gradually making minor changes to address the issues of the previous season." EC (2006).

It had taken years for Forman and Holmes to get to the stages they are at in their careers right now. Thanks gets assigned to the Adelaide 36ers from both the South Dragons and New Zealand Breakers.

The Worm, 110 percent spot on mate.

doc (#110017) "No current player is going to stack on the muscle during the season"

re the above quote..my response was to panthers #110018
"what changes if any would you like to see next season???"

oops #110047 I mean. Sheesh!!

In Sydney's 3 consecutive Championships they just about had a new team every year. It doesn't take that long to get a team to gel at NBL level.

I think the skinny physiques of sixer players over the years should never be confused with lean and athletic .
Something has been hugely lacking in the education and execution of dietary needs , conditioning programmes and training routines.
Times have changed and if you want to be a successful athlete you need the knowledge of your body and the passion the push it .
We have had so many flimsy bodies in sixer uniforms for many years and if the players are not giong to do the work on their own then someone should be there pushing them .
And by work i mean smart weight training for anaerobic power and super aerobic conditioning and capacity .

Appropriate protein and supplement intake :

Mix - egg white protein , MF ion exghange whey and hydrolysed casein , choice of milk , flax seed oil , berries , frozen yoghurt , BANG !

L-Glutamine w zinc and vitamin C.

Multi mineral + vitamin = Tresos B are great .

Probiotic washed down with yakult .

+ most importantly excellent diet .

Oscar had a light frame in which he has slowly built into a reasonably strong yet very athletic lean body .

Illman same story built himself up and worked damn hard doin it .

Jason Williams on the other hand slight frame , shithouse body management , end of career .

IMO , Rogers when here , Nash , Holmes and now Cooper and Mastro = sloppy , definitely not at optimum .

Mee and Brooks were that good they could do without the weights , don't know about Cat and Maher but i imagine Brett would be the consumate pro .

Point is if there are definite ways in having your body run at its optimum level and by looking at the recent 36er teams i would say most are not .

oh poo Dana did i get offtopic .

Not at all buff dog.
That's pretty much backed up what I was saying.

Although when I think about it, this thread 'evolved' into a different direction after #110018.
Uh Oh... ;)

They have a new fitness guy this season so I would hope they are more professional in this area as it was a joke in the past. I do question 3 hamstrings in one season though...very unusual. Strength imbalance between quads and hammies?

The Worm, I respect your opinion but I have a different opinion regarding South Australian junior's priority with the 36ers. AT NBL level you are talking about the top level Basketball in Australia. It doesn't matter which state the players developed in. Each club needs to pick up the best they can from wherever in the country. Why do you think we have 2 imports per team. They have developed their game as far away as you can get from our home.

You mentioned Forman and Holmes development as juniors and then losing them somewhere else. This is the strongest argument I can think of to support my opinion about how unimportant it is to pick up South Australian juniors or any juniors for that matter. After spending years developing these players, there's go guarantee that they will stay with you.

Outside of basketball and in the everyday world, how many young people leave their homes for jobs interstate or overseas? As an individual you go where the opportunities are, as a club you pick up the best you can.

thedoctor, I already answered your question in saying that the 3 players that left would have left regardless. At the end of last season, any other team in the league had more stability than Adelaide did. I don't know how everyone else felt but when I read headlines like entire BASA board sacked and government takes control, it left me feeling quite uneasy about the future of the club.

EC, I don't think they would have left regardless. I think it was clear to them that Smyth and co. weren't that fussed either way. They saw it as a 'if you stay we'll get you real cheap' as that's all we're offering or (what they really wanted) which was a cleanout as they thought they could bring in better. That has backfired. Always, always try and develop your locals first as if they pan out you have a much better chance of keeping them long term. This however requires that you coach on an individual level. Something Smyth does not do. In fact I would call that lazy and abuse of position. You only need to look at the level of committment that Lemanis is bringing to his group and the rewards that brings.

EC - read Isaac's post about uncontracted players? Isaac pointed out for the millionth time that had they been signed before going out of contract, no other team could approach. Simple as that.

I agree with you that last season's team with a couple of good pick ups was championship quality - we failed to retain a core group, and it is just incorrect that no matter what the club did those players were gone.

Why didn't the club sign the players early last season as NZ have done (or are in the process of doing) with Oscar now some 18 months before he comes out of contract?

You seem to think there is no value in developing youngsters at all because they might leave - why do they leave? Because the Club is not offering an environment attractive enough to stay. People leave their home town only when the grass is greener. My point is the Sixers used to have the greenest grass. Now not even David Bailey and Rashard Tucker are interested in it.

In saying that there is no benefit in developing youngsters and SA youngsters in particular - have you considered the points reduction benefits available to long serving players? This is how you build a championship team. Retain youngsters who started with low ratings who are now far better than their rating suggests because they have received discounts by being at the one club. That is why the loss of Oscar and Jacob is so significant.

And Phil being nice by "letting them go"? WTF? They were uncontracted and can go wherever they please.

EC, where did I say I was against recruiting the best young talent from around Australia? U interpreting my thoughts - watch out Dana will be after you! I would love to see the Sixers recruit the best young talent - fullstop! From Australia, New Zealand and even Afganastan cos if the kid can play who cares.

I was talking about once we get good young players we have to be proactive in developing and keeping these kids in our program. Enlighten me on what better opportunities you believe Holmes and Forman are getting at another club. More minutes? Dont think so because I think both would be getting a whole lot here in Adelaide. Maher is on his last legs and over the next decade Oscar and Jacob would be our Aussie Franchise players. Our starters this year could of been Maher, Farley, Forman, Holmes & Horvath.

Maybe they are getting better opportunities at their respective clubs such as more thorough coaching system with development programs in place for them I dont know. But if that is the case then isn't that a look at what the Sixers should have in place for the players?

Instead of being upset and dissappointed in the club for not being as proffessional in its training methods and recruitment and retainment as our rival clubs your theory is if we all cheer as loud as we can and encourage the players things will be just dandy. We are shite and the majority of our players are mid to late 30's! Not a good combo for mine.

Come out of fantasy land and poke your head in reality and you might just see what the majority of Sixers fans are seeing.

I go to games and cheer the boys on but I also see the problems that are their and I will voice my opinion in the hope that things change. It is called caring and wanting the best for your team and not excepting mediocre performances from players or management because they are an embarrasment to the greats who have done the Adelaide 36ers proud and made us the club we used to be!

thedoctor, also ask Isaac how Oscar felt when he signed with NZ. Then tell me he would have signed with Adelaide before exploring other options.

EC, I've told you: he would've signed with Adelaide if they spoke with him during the season and offered the right amount. Remember, he has his house, family, friends, pets(!), here. Even when he came out of contract, the difference between what he asked and what they offered was $5,000 - not much when you consider that he'd taken a big paycut for the club in the past, was local, was capped at five points for his career here, and is a team player.

To explore "other options" players have to come out of contract and risk finding out that there aren't as many opportunities out there that they thought. In Oscar's case, many clubs were looking at Jacob as a priority too.

Isaac , everything that i have seen this year and read and posted regarding the sixers it really saddens me as this surely would have been a huge year for the big O .
An oppurtunity for the club to reward loyalty and commitment and a massive chance for Oscar to show what he is capable of in 30 mins a game court time . I am sure if he did not produce given extended minutes then maybe both parties could review , however
IMO - 16 pts , 6.5 reb , 2 ass , with almost a blk and stl per game at good percentages was realistic.
Add in the benefit of spreading the floor on offence which Adelaide need and there ya go .