How many more reasons has Smyth left for not winning games ?

It would be easier for all if he would just say that the opposition team was better than the Sixers on the day.

Smyth said in The Advertiser that because they had Copes out, the Sixers lost.

A smart move. Things can't get any worse than what they already are so whatever changes are made must be for the better. Even if they continue to lose games with Timmons signed, that's exactly what they are doing now so nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I think this is a solid move, despite his age Timmons will still be able to get a much better return for the team than what we have at present.

So will Marcus start in the 5 or will we have him on the bench

If the teams goal is to play as little defence as possible (which certainly seems the case in some games), then they have just improved out of sight with the signing of Timmons.

I think he'll start at SF or come off the bench for Majstrovich early in the piece. Depends on his form.

Like Boti's Good/Bad/Ugly article, this could be another player to fit that - is talented, has done well in the past, put up decent stats for Sandringham, but is considered a bit of a spanner in the gears by at least one past team, may be soft on defense, etc.

He arrives in Adelaide today.

Smacks of desperation. Play the young guys now and build for the future. Funny how he wasn't the right fit before but suddenly is now. The injury to Copes is just a convenient excuse to get him in. Public sentiment was against this move before and Smyth knew it that's why it wasn't done. Now that there is a real chance thaey will miss out on the finals they are gonna pull the trigger on it. Desperate, and if it doesn't work out( make the 8) it will make them look very foolish.

So you would not think of having DMac play here then?

Kent, D-Mac is the exception, not the rule. The guy is extraordinary. The reason why D-Mac is seen as so amazing is that guys his age should not be doing what he is doing.

I think Copes has had a wonderful season, bar one or two early games. But, the injury does not surprise me. He is an old guy playing like a 21 year old. Credit to him for being fearless but the fact remains that signing guys like him, Wheeler and now Timmons leaves the team at a higher risk of injury.

Fair enough Doc but what i am saying is that Copes pulled a hammy which anyone at any time can do (Sutton) just because of his age does not mean he should not be given the opportunity. If he can get it done, which he has been then he could get a gig again next year.

Same with Timmons if he is able to give us 15 and 8 a game i dont care how old he is.

Look at the AFL and how long St Kilda have been "rebuilding" still no titles for a long time.

Winning is about here and now not the future.

Hmmm, 3 hammies in a season. Bit unusual don't you think. Maybe the new fitness guy needs to take a look at what he's doing?

Kent, thanks for confirming what I have been trying to say for a long time. We need a championship today, not in 10 years. Juniors will need to progressively get to NBL level by starting off training with an NBL team. He should then be given a few minutes for experience and then progressively increase the court time until professional status is reached. Don't immediately send a boy to do a man's job. You start at the bottome and work your way up the ladder. He may be fit and healthy, but not experienced.

EC, that's what we would have done with Newley then if we'd got him. Looks a little silly in retro spect, don't it. Season is a write off, fact is the old crew didn't get it done.Blood the young guys for extended minutes in meaningful moments and see what else we can uncover.

Newley and Ingles are special cases.

Much more than what Oscar and Jake brought originally, they have been in the league years and i would say neither have set the world on fire like Newls and Jingles.

They are competent players but are examples of how talent can be nurtured along to make solid NBL contributors

Out of the box debate will only decide how much impact they would have had under Phil.

Anon that is what i am saying, rebuilding does not mean titles so why the need to blood young players? Name me one team that rebuilt through youth and won tiltes...doubt anyone can do it. Maybe Sydney but the bulk of their minutes was still played by experinced ball players.

We are playing here and now and need to get the results here and now, not lets carry some kids for a few years and see what happens.

Did that with Oscar and Jake and they ended up walking any way.

The cricket is on at the moment and reminds me that SA recruited one D Bradman to play for them. Talent can be bought it does not necessarliy have to be home grown.

anon
what are you on about? this is a discussion about old guys v new guys isn't it?

Lets not go over the Newley / Ingles thing....it is a lot more involved than what people realise at first and most has been coverd off here before.

The buck never, ever finishes with Phil.

'we would've won those two games if Copes played' puh-lease!

We would've won three titles in a row and sold out every game if we had've signed Newley, Rogers, Forman, Holmes, Ingles.

I wish I could live in Phil's Fantasy world.

Kent
You also need to think about the fans. Each year I re-evaluate my season tickets.I for one would like to see what a Jordan Dodman can do in a game, not just warmups. I want to see how he thinks on the floor, what areas he is good at and deficient in, is he a competitor etc. Sure, he's not going to win the game for us but it is a small glimpse of what the future could be. Ain't gonna see any of this when he's anchored to the bench whilst the old guys drop another one. If I can see a future I'll renew my season ticket, if all I get is a band aid approach which is what it is now I won't. I go to watch good basketball, if a championship comes along that's just a bonus. At the moment it's crap.

You could always go to an ABL game and watch him play 30+ mins too.

I understand what you are saying but if the team is winning then the fans will come.

Are you telling me that you would enjoy winning games or even a title less beacuse players are over a ceratin age?

Also what would happen if the sixers brought in Mee and Cat...is age a factor there?

This site was largely up in arms that Phil did not try to get in touch with Bradtke...that has proven to be wise as he is now injured again.

Izzy, I pay $5.00 per game to watch ABA and see the likes of Jordan Dodman. I buy my season ticket to see top quality NBL grade games and have a team I can cheer and get passionate about. I know this year's 36ers is doing little to satisfy that, but this was to be expected considering the activities of the off season. This is a disrupted season which hopefully a lot can be learnt from and appropriate changes made for the next season. With Mal Hemmerling behind the helm, I have every confidence that it will happen next year. If you are thinking about the fans, then you should know that fans won't pay $20+ for a ticket to see junior players.

Sense of ownership plays a part. There is a reason that Hemmerling is looking to build a team with a South Australian focus for next year. Which players did we have this year that fans considered locals? Maher, Hill, Ng. Sutton came later, Hill is out, and Ng's been missing recently. You can't count Wheels for this. Pretty slim pickings.

It is not just about winning IMO. It is about winning, effort, sense of ownership, entertainment.

How would the report card look for this team on those four points? Would average out to a C+ at best on any of them, if you're lucky. I think the club are doing exceptionally well considering the results of the team.

The team can switch between a D and an A on effort, entertainment and winning in a single game (see the Pigs game at the Dome as an example).

True Isaac but how many South Aussies on the 98 / 99 and 2001 teams?

Maher with benchwarmers like Bauer, Holmes and Forman????

People still have fond memories of those teams because they were winners not because 1 or 2 were born in the same state that the team is from.

Even D-Mac is showing his age. He averages 5plus assists with 3plus Turnovers. He in a great team with so many options so those numbers aren't mind blowing. Not when you got Anstey, Tucker, Thomas and Co. running the lanes with you. Leads League in steals but can he still guard the quick guards such as Groves still?

I enjoyed watching Holmes/Forman/Illman in 2002. All three had seen reasonable minutes (for rookies) during the season. Maher was in his prime too and played 30 games. Plus Williams for good measure.

That was Stiff's fourth year with Adelaide and Rees' fifth and both were regular contributors. Sapwell was in his 6th year as a 36er. Who wouldn't consider Rees and Sapwell South Australians now?

Besides the local rookies, Farley and Garrison as imports, and Nash (in his second year in Adelaide) were pretty much the only new faces with the team at the time.

Compare that to this season: Copes, Majstro, Wheeler, Cooper, now Timmons. Different situation.

I think there are different sorts of fans who go to games for different reasons. Alienating any group can damage crowds, etc.

EC
I don't buy this 'disrupted season due to change in owmership' excuse which gets trotted out more and more lately. Smyth put this team together and I question how hard he fought to keep Oscar and Jacob and even Dusty. He put this team on the floor and it is failing. He is responsible....period. I too can go watch ABA but that is exactly the point. What are these young players like in the cauldron of the NBL? I don't really care what the age of the players are as long as they are committed and doing their best. I don't think this group is, they are of veteran age with no chemistry, move over and give a younger player a go. Bringing in another vet for a season in mothballs just seems to me to be counter productive in the long run.You only need to look at Sutton to see what a bit of fire and desire can do. Lose fighting all the way and I'll applaud you....lose with a half assed effort.....

EC knows they didn't really try to retain Dusty.

Its quite coincidental that you should mention this right now Isaac as I was just going through some of the box scores for Dusty's games this season and realised just how valid my missing him is.

How so? He was replaced with Horvath who has hardly been a disappointment.

Izzy the point of ABL if you take a look is that you get to see great players who never get a shot in the NBL.

Jason Dix, Billy Fikes, Ben Osborne, Darren Ng scoring 50+ etc etc...all great players that NBL only fans have never seen play.

Izzy, the purse strings were being controlled by the government and Smyth had a shoestring budget to work with. He picked up a lot of talent for a little amount of money. To some extent it was still unforseeable that so many injuries would occur given the ages of the new recruits. They have not had a good run with getting used to each other as a team as more often than not, one or two players are out with injury. The injuries are also occuring in both age groups. Lets face it, the injuries are sports related, not age related. If they suffered dementia and forgot what to do with the ball, then I would say they are too old.

I would also guess that Smyth's "lack of committment" is not directly blamed on the team but administration for the choices he was forced to make pre season.

Kent, the problem with your argument is that you say recruiting old guys is OK as long as we are winning.

We are getting thumped. We were lucky to beat West Sydney here and lucky to beat Woolongong earlier in the season. We could be 3 and 14, but we are instead a dreadful 5 and 12.

Argument for blooding young guys now is that the season is lost (in terms of winning the whole thing) and if that can't be done, look to next year and beyond. Get the young guys minutes now so they are more of an asset to the club next year when additions can be made to the squad to put a legit contender on the floor.

I agree that it doesn't matter how old a team is, as long as they are getting it done. Unfortunately that is not the case with the Sixers this year. Nothing will change with Timmons coming in. Even if he does give 15 and 8, my money is that it will be in a losing side.

Isaac, Horvath has been hot and luke warm this season. Overall his stats may be pretty good, but what I see is a player who is not that compatible with the rest of the team (this may be something that will develop later). He may be good enough personally but at what expense to the rest of the team?

With Horvath, you cannot say exactly what you are going to get from him each game, Rychart was far more predictable.

We would've won three titles in a row and sold out every game if we had've signed Newley, Rogers, Forman, Holmes, Ingles.



Who said this?

I'm glad Holmes is gone!
Rogers is having an ok season so far this year but last year he had a stinker.

so doc who do you elevate and blood then?

Sutton yes, now injured....so who?

Timmons is a ready made answer to fix a problem.

Copeland has been as good as any sixer this year so he hardly deserves to be knocked for his age.

Timmons has not even pulled on the singlet and people are pissed

I recall an near 40 year old Leroy dismantling every part of Darnell's game at the dome, age got nothing to do with it.

Proven players over inexperience in this situation for me.

EC, maybe they haven't 'forgot' what to do with the ball but they have certainly 'forgotten' how to play defence. The lack of committment is atrocious. Is this age related? Just maybe.

Obviously they haven't forgotten how to play defence but maybe with age the desire to dive on the loose ball, take the charge, deny the ball etc. has waned. In the game against the pigs Sutton worked his arse off playing full court 'd', nobody else did. Why?

EC.. are you serious ?
Horvath is far more predictible than Dusty was. I rate both players as being able to turn a game- but Dusty did not do it for us consistently, Horvath can.

The only reason he goes quiet in games is because he doesnt get the bloody ball enough !!
The guys usually has 10-12points/5-6 rebs by half time and they forget him in the 3rd qtr.

I would be interested to know how many points / 1st half Horvath is averaging. Then compare his 3rd qtr output/mins played to his 2nd half entirely.

EC, what "shoestring budget" are you talking about? They spent the cap like a number of other teams (most of which are above them on the ladder).

They offered Dusty less because (I assume) of Farley's second year of his deal and needing to preserve funds for negotiations with Holmes and Forman. Remember as well, the cap has been increasing, not decreasing.

EC
Smyth picked this team thinking it would be better than last years. He didn't believe they could progress any further with that group and sublety moved players aside under the cover of 'woe is us' so not to look like a prick. What we have now is a planned roster which has gone pear shaped. The full cap was spent so why the 'ownership' excuse keeps getting a run I'm f'd if I know. Fact is he got it wrong.

I've said this before and I will say it 20 times more if I have to, but how many good players were rushing over to Smyth to get signed here in Adelaide? There was much instability in the off season. If they spent the full cap, then it wasn't enough for players to risk an unstable situation here. Were we really that confident that we had a team for this season? It more likely explains why older players were signed. Perhaps players like Copeland are not looking beyond 12 months.

Smyth had very little to choose from. I don't doubt that Smyth wanted to make changes from the previous roster, but I also doubt he had much to choose from with budget contraints.

There were many free agents after last season and no doubt many of them are playing for no more than what Adelaide could have offered. Why did they choose not to come here?

All the more reason for them to sign their own free agents during the season, surely?

What happened to your comment about the purse strings? No follow up on that?

EC , maybe it is even simpler....Most good players are just like the supports - they want to be associated with a team that can win.

Isaac, anything that is not above the salary cap in this league is a purse string, especially if you can't sign the players you want on this budget. You seem to harp on this fact, is it because you agree that no one wanted to come here?

Signing their own free agents would not have been a change to the team. I don't know that so much change was necessary, but something had to change. Just replacing Rees may have been enough. This also emphasises my point about players wanting to play for Adelaide.

EC , maybe it is even simpler....Most good players are just like the supporters - they want to be associated with a team that can win.

No supporters don't want to be associated with a team that wins, they want to be associated with their own state team and want them to win. Have you done a survey on how many 36ers fans have jumped ship this season? You can start with me, I definitely have not.

EC
Why did they choose not to come here?
Maybe they wanted to develop their games....;)

I dispute your suggestion that a club cannot compete in this league without busting the cap. Perth, Wollongong, NZ - have a look at where they are on the ladder. None are top dog, but none of those teams are relying on beating the bottom half of the ladder to accrue their wins.

Before the season, I didn't rate Perth at all, but they are playing well as a team, defending well, and getting it done - they can win on the road (5 wins so far) and they are solid at home (6-1).

Now back to Adelaide - knowing full well that the club were heading into a sale situation and all the off-season trouble, they allowed their free agents to walk - not just one of their forwards, but three. They let them become free agents and receive offers from rival clubs. Not just an incremental change to go from first-round-exit to contenders, a frontcourt clean out leaving Nash and Cooper.

It's easier and cheaper to keep someone where they are than relocate someone new, but that's the path they took. I can't speak for Dusty and Jake, but in Oscar's circumstances, the gap between what they offered and what would've had him sign was not very much at all, but they didn't go for it.

So, you know they elected to let Dusty go (or try their luck with a low offer) and they didn't exactly pursue the other two with crunch-time offers - from that, I think you can say that the club/coaches at the time thought that, despite the sale situation, they could do just fine.

Horvath for Dusty - fine.
Copes for Oscar - aside from the youth/ownership thing, not a bad trade. Dare say Copes is playing for cheaper than Oscar asked anyway.
Majstro and Wheeler for Holmes and Rees (can't compare then 1-for-1 given salary issues as well), but on paper, not a horrible swap by any stretch.

At the beginning of the year, no one was writing this roster off. There were jokes about age and so on, but Boti liked the look and many fans agreed. Smyth and Breheny were comparing Majstro to Cattalini and saying he'd surprise people. Boti said Farley was looking in top shape, leaner than ever. The coaches headed abroad and brought back Horvath, confident that he'd added an outside shot.

Now that they're 5-12, you can't cite off-season club issues or purse-strings IMO. You can cite injury (though Bullets haven't had luck with Bradtke; Kings have been without imports, lost Smith and Worthington for patches, just lost Barlow for the season), but you can't shift the blame around to suit the scenario.

The problems are there even when the team is at full strength.

Someone (who'll stay nameless) summed it up really well saying to me something like: "They weren't far off the pace, but I've just come to realise that they're just not very good."

You don't know what you're going to get: (1) Everyone firing and the squad overrunning the opposition, or coming back for an awesome road finish? (2) Or is it going to be passionless, lacking defense, destroyed-on-the-road, humbled-at-home stuff?

Oh, and to keep this on topic, Timmons has not been signed. He has been approached by the club but the contract is not yet approved by the league.

Obviously there are issues with trying to fit a naturalised import into a team that already has ten signed players and the two current injuries we do have are short-term.

Mastro has surprised me, as he has mastered the art of becoming invisible. I had been defending him to my father and others for the first 10 games or so but I just can't justifiably do it anymore. Nash is worse. I believe that there is little to no way that Timmons can give Adelaide LESS than Mastro and Nash, so it is a worthwhile move signing him. Copeland and Sutton's injuries hurt, if for no other reason that Brett Maher's already significant minutes will have to increase, and this has lead to an spate of injuries in the past few seasons. As I see it Eric Burdon will have to stay in the mix until one or more of Sutton, Copeland, and Ng return. Wheeler's play and numbers have been improving, and I got to thinking that his 21 points and 17 rebounds (or whatever it was) for the Sunshine swing wasn't too bad. Then I remembered the $100K + they are paying him!

And as far as Smyth's comment "if we hadn't lost Copes, we could have had those two games", if West Sydney had had Liam Rush and Clint Reed for the game here a couple of weeks ago they WOULD have beaten us!

Well said Isaac...

Isaac - back to your "identity of ownership" comments about players that people identify with.

You mentioned, quite rightly, players like Rees and STiffy who a lot of 6ers fans would regard as "Adelaide's Own" (to coin a phrase).

Surely Farley & Nash (we wont get into discussion about Nash's form that has been done to death) would have to figure into that group as well then.

As to the comments about blooding the development players, I beleive (and could be wrong) that if a development player is signed to a contract, they MUST be paid rookie minimum at least, which is a per season contract and does not allow for the fact they may not have played for half the season.

Timmons, or someone like him, can be brought in on a short term or per game contract, his wages are absorbed by placing other contracted players on injury waivers, therefore having minimal impact on the cap.

I watched Channel 10 sport, 9&7 sport and they said that Timmons training with the Sixers. However, the NBL have to let Timmons replace Copeland even though he is 7 and Copes is 3.

NBL has a chance to screw the Sixers again.

Unless Groves helps us...

When will people get off the "minimum" thing??

The year it was offered to Newley, the previous CEO was making ALL financial deals and offers personally.

I was told this out of the horses mouth and even still have the tape recording it was on.

Isaac in regards to your comment "knowing full well that the club were heading into a sale situation and all the off-season trouble, they allowed their free agents to walk". The decision was made by the individuals, not the club as they were free agents and not obligated to stay with the club. They may have been enticed to stay by offering them more money. This is what I mean by the salary cap being insufficient for Adelaide as they have to pay more to get the players they want. If Perth, NZ & Wollongong are keeping within the salary cap, that is because players will play for these teams within the salary cap. How many of their newly signed members would have preferred to play for Adelaide? Its not about how much you spend, its about how much is needed to get what you want. With the instability in the off season, only offering addtional money would have been an enticement to recruiting players, what else was Adelaide offering?

With Hemmerling and Groves in control, I hope players will feel more secure in coming here next season and hopefully there can be some offers made on the side to either help boost income or provide future career development.

Yea i thought Adelaide was only up to 53, not 100% sure but im pretty sure it was something around that when i added it up based on the figures given on the NBL site, which leaves thema round 10-15 points available, so there for they should be able to sign anyone they like within the points cap.
I personally like the Timmons signing as even if he isnt in top form id dare say he will be a upgrade on Nash or Majstrovich, and i think his role should basically be play hard defence, crash the boards and hit the open shot, and if he can do that he will help the team alot. I have no idea bout his personallity and how he fits into teams but i remember Lindsay Gaze saying he is the type of player who fits in and makes others around him better, which is what the 36ers need,even though its a while ago, he did it successfully with Melbourne and Perth, and Gaze and Smyth are reasoably similar in coaching style as apposed to a Molloy who cut him from Cairns, so i hope we do manage to get him in and he can play well and help us just win a few games this season.

EC, incorrect. The players only became free agents at the conclusion of the season. The club had opportunities to secure them before any other club was even allowed to talk to them, and they ignored it. The agent of two of these players approached the club to facilitate this and the offer was declined.

If the club does not keep players contracted, what impression does that give them as to how important a role they have in the future of the club?

If Oscar and Jacob were signed during the season, Jacob might never have heard of the concept of a "signing bonus" and Oscar would have not known what another team was willing to offer.

The Breakers aren't even to the half-way mark of their season and the club has already approached Oscar 18 months before he is out of contract to talk about extending his time there. That gives him an enormous amount of confidence as to his role with the team - he speaks positively about that sort of thing all the time.

Yogee, the "minimum" comment relates to Ingles, not Newley. Remember when they offered Ingles under the minimum for a fully-contracted player and then responded to the fan questions on this site (Smyth and Daws) saying that they'd offered him the maximum rookie salary?

I'd say that's what they're referencing.

Boti lists Copeland as a 3, not a 6.

Isn't it time we all moved on from the players we could have had? Hindsight just ain't going to bring this season back. Isn't the real issue here - the players that really wanted to be 36ers? I don't beleive for one minute that if a player was dead keen to play in Adelaide that they would not have let someone know this.
As for - where to from here - invite every player at ABA level between 18 - 25 out for a training session at the Dome - nothing to lose, they might just find that they have some overlooked talent out there.

I agree its now time to focus on the future. Of course this is a open forum, and everyone has the right to say what they wish. But I'm more concerned about the future prospects. Hopefully the 36ers have learned from their mistakes and the next Newley/Ingles is a Sixer!

Phil doesn't learn from mistakes, he lost Newley and then he lost Ingles.

Smyth hand picked this team and we are sitting at 5 - 12.

Other teams have injuries and are in a far better postion than the Sixers.

It has to stop with only one person - Phil Smyth

Haven't you all learnt it isn't ever Phil's fault.

It is the admin
It is the new owners
It is the referees
It is the travel
It is the injuries

We've waited 6 weeks for the team to gel and the only gel i've seen is hair gel (obviously not on Phil)

Hell will freeze over before Phil Smyth ever stands up and becomes accountable for the team failure.

Even if you take he "might" have been hamstrung by change of ownership he still has to take ownership of the teams performance - but he won't.

I'm not sticking up for Smyth but when you talk about 6 weeks to gel, I would imagine it to be 6 weeks after a whole team has played together. Has there been anytime whatsoever so far this season when everyone was fit and well and played 1 game together let alone 6 weeks worth? Every game I've been to I recall atleast one player benched due to injury.

All were suited and played in game one over in Singapore. Same against the Hawks in game two, though Hill was a DNP-CD. Full squad (bar Hill, absent) played in game three against the Kings too. Oh, and the full ten played in Perth in game four as well.

Key words Isaac "Every game I've been to". From your arguments it still doesn't satisfy my claim that they have not played 6 weeks as a full squad.

Oh yeah, I should've read the fine print on that press conference... seriously!

Remember the new guy they adjusted the offence for who was the big change this year? Well, he's played in every game. We're now 17 games into this season...