Anonymous
Years ago
14 and 16 girls seems to be a two or three horse race with it being only marginally more challenging in 18 girls where they have perhaps 4 teams around the mark. It's difficult to see how these girls can get the competition they need to improve enough in a home and away season to compete at nationals.
OH no another promotion/relegation thread coming up
No Im not suggesting pro/rel at all, more let the stronger clubs field 2 Div 1 teams or let the two top teams after summer season in each Division play an age group up.
I strongly believe this would strengthen them and I don't believe the argument that they would get massacred or lose self-esteem, they would improve.
Magpie
Years ago
Great idea. It has been suggested before. I am sure that a proposal was put before BASA from one of the clubs to allow clubs that had enough quality kids to field 2 Div one teams.
After a vote on this it was knocked back by a club that was not fielding a Div 1 team in that particular age group!!!
It would benifit the kids no end.
Isnt that what it is all about?
Just because clubs have a div 1 team,it does not mean they are Div 1 standard. Lets raise the standard of the comp by giving more quality kids a go.
Just openly allowing clubs to field two Div 1 teams will not work. It wasn't that long ago that BASA did allow it and from my understanding a certain club abused the privilege.
Stephen D
Years ago
Why is everyone so against a promotion / relegation system.
Most thriving sporting organisations all around the world work on this system.
Are we performing so well, that we can justify not using a proven system that promotes a game.
Is it fair that the weker clubs can rely on the fact that they will remain a Div 1 club irrespective of how they perform.
Maybe, with an introduction of a promotion / relegation system, the weaker clubs will need to take a look at their set up and perform.
The competition would improve, and over time, you will still end up having most the clubs represented in Div 1.
I find it so hard to understand that this sporting body keeps its head in the sand, and wont do what is good for the sport.
Basketball in SA needs to re invent itself, and this would be a start.
Clubs like Torrens Valley, if they are good enough, should be in Div 1.
Promotion / relegation works.
I'd suggest most people in juniors are well aware #103679 of the standard of the comp and most new b4 the season started where the strengths lay.
This is not a put down thread, its a debate thread.
I'm not suggesting every club has the right to 2 Div 1's more that if you're a top 4 club and your Div 2 sides' finished top 2 , you'd have a case for 2 Div 1 sides for winter etc.
Not many could argue against Sturt & Forestville in most age groups fielding a second side except clubs with self interest at heart.
I feel it would strengthen our base no end allowing them to field second Div 1 sides where they have strength.
And #103667 no ones relagated they remain at year level. Playing up an age level surely is promotion but playing at age is not relagation.
If we are to be competitive in this decade changes need to be made domestically and being proactive is not a crime.
If Sturt and Forestville had been able to field 2 Div 1's in 14 girls and 16 girls, the second teams may have struggled to beat both clubs' first teams but would have won more than their share of the rest as many of our clubs are fielding Div 2 quality sides as Div 1's.
Melbourne teams field two div 1 teams if strong enough eg Nunawading
"And #103667 no ones relagated they remain at year level. Playing up an age level surely is promotion but playing at age is not relagation."
WTF??
Dribbler
Years ago
I have been involved with a club that a few years ago was weak in 2 age groups. Because of this, the majority of parents of children entering these agegroups wanted the club to enter these teams in div2, so they would be reasonably competitive. However, players who were going into their 2nd year,(and who had played div 1 previously) threatened to leave the club if they had to play div 2.
IMO, if a relegation system were adopted, good players in a weaker club would leave to play div 1 in another club. Hence, weaker clubs would become weaker, and they would not be attractive to new players. All the references to situations in Melbourne and other sporting pursuits, are misguided when compared to basketball in SA because of the small amount of teams & players we have . We should look first at ways of keeping junior players aligned to the club in their area, as player movement almost always hurts the smaller clubs.
Also, BSA would have to change its regulations because all member clubs are supposed to field div 1 teams.
odin
Years ago
I think we need to do the oppposite limit all clubs to one team per division per age group.
4 divisions only means 8 teams per age group (4 boys 4 girls)
7->10 per team based on club wants/needs. the rest either change clubs or dont play district basketball.
If a group of player is in the third strongest group for a club they are div 3 not a second div 2 team. Each club should compete to win all 4 divisions, make the whole competion stronger not make accomodations for stonger/weaker clubs.
make every player earn there position on a distruict team (any district team any level) by being better than the competition not by having the right amount of subs. maybe this way we will improve basketball by forcing competition not by making allowances.
would this mean sturt /forestville will take out all divisions ina age group probably, but at least the competions is real..
to be really mean I'd also ban teams from entering a div 3 team until div 1 and div two are filled etc ... makes it easier for players to move without the risk of playing in lower divs.
non associated teams could then only fill in the empty spots where the clubs couldnt/didnt field teams.
in fairness once they get that spot they should keep it through to the next age group until the players are to old to play junior basketball.
this will make th eidea of not fielding teams very expensive for the clubs.
Anyway I ramble....
just some thoughts and I realize that some of the ideas wont be popular, but this is just a debate
I have great idea.
Let Sturt & Forestville field 2 Div 1 sides and then they can play one with all Country kids and one with all metro kids.
Problem solved.
Zoning both metro and country areas would help but there are issues with this too.
In the negative columm, Proactive clubs that recruit well and widely are disadvantaged and Im not sure that dictating where juniors can play is overall a good idea.
For it, the areas are clearly defined where kids can play and be recruited from and players are tied to an area.
Dribbler,
You couldn't be more wrong. Under promotion relegation you would not be allowed to move from a club that has a team qualify in div 2 to a team that qualifies in div 1. You can move clubs but only into a team in div 2.
And you wouldn't need too move, to improve as a player. You would be playing at a level where if you play bad you lose, if yuou play well you win. This thinking is just another common misconception from the current guarenteed div 1 position. And the reason you club is in the situation is due to the current system. By placing the team in div 1 and getting thrashed every week players are leaving your club in droves!
Under promotion relegation, it would be up to the team to qualify, not be nominated, therefore taking away the responsibility of the club and putting it back onto the team, ie the families.
And why would a club with a div 1 team take your players under promotion relegation? What about the kid who now misses out and is moved into div 2 when they qualified for div 1? Do you think that they would stay at the club who they qualified and then dumped them?
and anon #103717
Your right, we should discriminate against a kid becasue of some line drawn in the sand. I am glade that you are not a my club.
Clubs need to discuss these issues with a view to whats best for basketball in South Australia and take us to the next levelbeyond club rivalry.
We all seem lost in the 'win the flag'stuff at season's end which blinds us to what might make us truly competitive nation wide.
The more open constructive debate we have , the more likely one day somebody is going to come up with a system we can all compromise on and the sooner the better.
Stephen D
Years ago
Why do we not have a bigger Div 1 comp , so that teams like Sturt & Forestville can have 2 teams in Div 1. Increase Div 1 comp to 14 teams.
That way everyone can be happy.
Dribbler
Years ago
103470, Please enlighten me as to how you would stop players moving from a "second grade" club to a div 1 club. If a player was better than one you had in your squad, tell me you wouldn't accept them. Under BSA rules, the maximum time you can withold a clearance for a junior is 4 weeks. As I said in my post, pro/reg will only work where you have a large no. of teams, and that is not here in SA.
Dribbler,
The exact same thing is happening now. Except players are moving from a club where they are playing div 1 into a club to play div 2. How do you explain that.
Stephen D
Said before, people are quiting because they are getting beaten by large margins. A bigger div 1 comp will onyl mean that more teams are getting beaten by large margins. Although Sturt and Forestville's div 2's might win some games, they would get thrashed as well by their div 1 club mates. And we would risk losing them to the sport, like we do with the kids who are getting killed each week now.
Promorion/relegation.
Dribbler
Years ago
103470/104191, You havn't answered my query re. how you would stop the player movement I described.
In reply to your 104191 post, I only know of 2 instances where that has happened. Both were players transfering to a club that does not have div 1 teams. One because their existing club did not have enough players to field a team; the other one cannot be open information at this stage.
Dribbler,
Under Pro/rel rules, any player moving club wuold be ineligible to play a grade higher if they transfer during the season. ie If your teams is in div 2 and you move. You can play for any club you want but only in their div 2 team.
If you were able to name players moving from div 1 into div 2 I could name at least 10. Who many cna you name that have moved from a div 2 team to play div 1? Probalby half! People need to understand that it doesn't happen.
Look at the Melbourne U16 Boys comp. The best team is from an association callewd Sandringham. How many other Div 1 teams do you think they have. By your theory, they would have all moved to Dandenong and Nunawading becasue they are the bigger and stronger clubs.
Plus. Now go and do some research on how many kids leave the sport becasue they are getting pounded each week. This is the biggest concern. For every 5 that move clubs to play div 1. 10 Move to receive a better serevice. You probably have 20 that leave the sport altogeter.
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