yes - now an auto unsportsmanlike - it was before - any deliberate hack is an unsportsmanlike.

The new rule just create an "awareness"

It should be unsportsmanlike, you can't do that. It's like soccer, if a man is open with the ball, if you foul him from behind it's an automatic red card.


But, What you do there, is just run up and stand in front of him, getting a blocking foul, thus not 'deliberate' thus not an unsportsmanlike.

oh please!

There are too many rules already why add flopping rules. The fast break foul is simply a smart play, and hardly unsportsmanlike conduct surely unless of coarse they are reckless. While some would call it intentional this does not make it unsportsmanlike

It is basically to stop awkward fouls and player injuries.

While it is part of the game to try and stop the fast break, they just want to stop the hard and excessive contact which can occur.

The rule book states an usportsmanlike foul is if:
" A player, in an effort to play the ball, causes excessive contact (hard foul) then the contact will be judged to be unsportsmanlike." (Art 36)

Still, I won't be looking forward to calling my first one next season, it will be interesting to see how players and coaches react.

Is this an unsportsmanlike foul.

LA Lakers have the ball, the opposition needs to foul to stop the clock. The nearest player to Shaq gives him a big bear hug to foul him whether or not he has the ball as it is in their best interest to send him to the foul line.

This happens all the time and I think it is worse than a fast break foul.

Anon,

I agree, but don't you think it's unsportsmanlike??

Remember the hack a Bowen tactics that were used in the finals last year....it is a normal foul unless there is less than 2 minutes to go were the NBA ruls is for Flagrant....one shot and possesion.

Thanks

AHH! whats the difference between a flop and a charge. If a player is running straight at you, wouldnt it be smarter to simply at the last second fall over, than to take the full brunt of the charge. By flopping you are evading injury not only of yourself but often the offensive player! surely you cannot get a tech for this! If the umpire deems it to be an obivous flop, eg no contact whatso ever..how bout a no call?

Im not really sure what the point of these rules really are...why change them when they arent that big a problem...if a player flops after no or little contact i thought it was just a no call and the game just continues, making it a tech foul puts pressure on the ref to have to call a tech...if a player flops twice do they get ejected?

Wasn't the ruling if a player is on a fast break with no one in front and the defender fouls from behind then that's an unsportsmanlike???
Grabbing an arm or the body should definitely be unsportsmanlike but attempting to swipe the ball or going to block the shot and fouling shouldn't be unsportsmanlike!

Panther,

The way I understand it, if you are going for the block, and get the ball you will be fine.

If you foul on the arm in attempt to block the shot, I believe that it would be considered a normal foul ( I will check that one with the rules interpreter before the season starts)

It is the "Hard foul", eg, putting the player to the floor, giving them a shove in the back into the basket support etc that would be considered unsportsmanlike.

Players & coaches

If you go here:

http://www.basketball.net.au/FS_extra.asp?id=648&OrgID=1

It is all the FIBA rules and regulations for the 2004 season.

If you click on "2004 interpretations" it will give you changes to the rules and some examples of how the referees are directed to call things.

Splinter,
An exact example of how people read a rule and misinterpret it, just like the 3 second rule. With the new rules you are disqualifyed when you receive two UNSPORTSMANLIKE fouls not technical.

I think to some level if a player flops and makes a big song and dance then they are showing the referee a level of disrespect and should be given a technical foul. Having said that I think it is going to be a very contentious rule.

So your a flopper schmee, theres a hint for the referee's that read this for when they ref you ;)

Until kids are taught not to flop...it will continue...no matter what the rules are...they have them in soccer and they quite obviously dont work there and they wont work in basketball.

hey, im a charge magnet alf. I averaged 3 charges a game in the last fnals series :d. yeah i dont think i should have wrote my last post, as in my recent social game, smiley didnt seem to be too impressed by my floppage...

Unsportsmanlike fouls come down to the spirit of the game. Are you just getting a cheap shot in? Are you playing the ball like you would any other time of the game?

Refs should be smart enough to not fall for the flop, nor need to penalise you for cleaning the floor. A smart ref would just ping you for a block if you cause a disadvantage to the player with the ball.

So your not a 'smart ref' if you follow the rules?

Whilst I feel that their has ben a number of very good points made on this sight reguarding the importance of referee education as well as imporving the relationship between referee's, coaches and players I would like to ask this question to all referee's out their.

If a small player hits a very big player while they are taking a shot or making a move. Is this a foul or is it not a foul because the big player is not disadvantaged because they should be able to beal with the contact due to their extra size?

I guess I'm talking about a level that you don't referee Jirachi. I would be more concerned for the game flow than to get everything technically correct.

Nathan for someone of your caliber, who a lot of younger refs look up to I don't think that that is such a wise thing to say.

So if someone travels do u not call it cuz it will stop game flow???

If it puts the guy to a disadvantage it's a foul. No matter how big or small you are.

At what point to you think it is a disadvantage?

Very true Alf, my bad. Sorry folks.

Different levels require me to referee in different ways.

A travel in juniors needs to get called because they are still learning their trade.

An ABA game however, a travel which puts the defender to a disadvantage needs to be called. A score from a travel needs to be called.

Don't forget a good referee would point and laugh at someone who flops as well as call the block (or is that just me?). I agree with game flow being the number 1 important aspect in senior basketball. For those of you that have played, coached, and/or refereed in any Basketball Australia national tournament, you would know how important game flow is.

Difficult to answer in writing Big Aristotle. Next time you see me in person ask me the same question. If you can't do what you want to do because of illegal contact then it should be called a foul.

What I am asking is if a big kid takes a hit on the shoulder from a small kid and makes the basket, is it a foul. Or if a small kid bounces of a big kid who has made a good attempt at position and misses a shot is this a foul.

I think it depends on the situation Alf, and the game being played.

There are two trains of thought on how to ref say, U10s. One is that you call the travel, citing the fact that if you never call it, the kids will never learn it's wrong. The other is that you let it go, as to not frustrate the children by stopping them every time they do something incorrect.

Personally, I would lean a little closer to the latter, but in some situations leniency may be the best way to deal with it.

Considering we're talking about Nathan Wieland here (don't forget that Alf) naturally the games he's refereeing are a little different to U10s.

If the travel effects the game (IE - the player gains an advantage by travelling) then of course you're going to call it. If someone talk an extra half-step in the back court under no pressure, then no, I'd say it wouldn't be called.

I get the feeling your post was not soley directed at the travelling violation. But, since that's what you mentioned, I figured I'd focus on that. Apply similar logic to most rules, and I think you'll find a happy balance.

With regards to the flopping thing : the rule is there, the refs have to enforce it. Regardless of whether you like the rule or not, it's there, and the refs are there to enforce it. I'd suggest that if they do enforce it, we will see it out of the game rather quickly.

My point was that even though it is Nathan they're are a kids learning that want to be like him and look up to him that may take what he says and apply it to their games.

However, I think Nathan just cleared that up for those people.

Not that this has anything to do with UFs anymore...

This all depends on the level you're talking about Big. ABA if you can get the ball in the hoop without our help then it's all good. Juniors though, sometimes you have to call all contact because they're still learning.

"good attempt at position" tells me that he didn't make the position and should be a foul.

We look at who caused the contact and then what effect it has had.

Nathan and Nathan

Dont you think that if at the begining of the season you told all the clubs in writing that you will be calling the game tight. That then if you called the first quarter tight and when they complained you told them that they need to adjust to the refereeing, do you think that the game would be played better.

So does that mean that you would let the big player take 20 hits if he made 20 shots.

I am a little confused with the discussion re not upsetting the flow of the game and the need to determine whether an advantage was unfairly gained by way of commiting a violation.

Do you view this different depending on whether or not it is a foul v a simplke side ball violation (eg travelling). I would have thought a foul should be called at any time as there is a potential impact on the player causing the foul (may eventually get fouled out) or on the team (enetual foul shots)

Advantage in footy is clear as there is immediate feedback on whether an advantage exists or not however in bball this advantage may not materialise for some time later.

Are we saying don't call fouls if an immediate advantage occurs?

I learnt that I was very lenient when it came to calling the game as compared to my interstate counterparts at the ABA National Finals.

You bring up and interesting questions Commendant Lassard, one that has been playing on my mind a lot. Should I referee just like my counterparts did at that event or should I readjust back to the way that I did to get there? Some teams gain unfair advantages from games being played in a more physical way. Vice versa some teams gain similar advantages by the game being called tighter.

The question is Nathan, is it the team that is breaking the rules getting the advantage if you don't call the fouls. And will they adjust if you do call the fouls. IYO

I think we'd (refs & players) both adjust. If the refs show you early on in the game what is and what isn't allowed you should be able to adjust. Then later on in the match you should be able to play with a lot less intervention.