Perhaps you could go to the smaller club and you/your child could help develop that club around them. IE grow with the club.

WHen did it change? When did clubs have more than 1 team in Div 1? This has only occured a couple of times over the past 30 yrs.

I remember Norwood had two teams in U16 boys div 1 - and both were VERY competitive ie top and about 5th - then their own club went and voted out the second team. Wonder how many happy members were in the team that were "relegated".....

I would say that the movement rate is 80 - 20.

80% of players leave a club to go to a club which is bigger to get better coaching.

While 20% of players leave bigger clubs to play Div 1 in smaller clubs.

The players moving from smaller clubs are usually their best players. With the players moving from the bigger clubs are not able to make it into Div 1 therefore being the second tier players.

Unfortunately, the smaller clubs believe that a div 1 position is the big carrot. When infact history tells us that it is better coaching that parents use as a deciding factor in where their kids play.

loackstock,

If you re-read my post it starts with 'I would say'. NOt here are the facts!

And I would say, as somebody who has been greatly involved in the process for the last 10 years!

I think I have a fair more understanding than a South reserves player anyway!

(#90773) - you are a no-one. You don't even have the audacity to use a common name.

No wonder they couldn't wait to get rid of you in '04.

"Nine months too long" was what most people had to say about you.

Well Doc Damage, i know full well that you are a coach and that certain players have left clubs because of YOU and not @ the request of the parents!

anon #90774,

People who read the forum might know who I am without me needing a username, like yourself I might add. And no, frmom your post I am probably not who you think I am. I ahve a certain sytle that is fairly easily recognisable.

And you should have written "you have the audacity to not uise a common name" You have written a double negative which of course makes it a positive.

I thought 10 years experience would give me much more credibility then you? But if you know who I am let us know who you are!

Dr Damage,

Looking at your club, you have a number of players above U14's who have moved to your club from Div 1 at another club, and are playing div 2. Can't think of too many who have gone the other way?

Norwood

The Awnser/brad.

Just becasue somebody on this forum accuses Dr Damage of causing kids too leave does not mean that it is true. Could just be a disgruntled parent who cannot accept that when Dr Damage was coaching their little "johnny", that they weren't good enough for div 1. Or a player who thought they were better than div 2.

It would be like us all listening to your opinion and taking it for fact.

Just cause the sun is shinning, doesn't mean it's summer.

Its not necessarily the "small" clubs who think that Div 1 is the be-all and end-all of basketball.

Its mostly the inexperienced and/or average clubs, parents and players who think that.

Parents will not look elsewhere if their kids are happy.

Rabbit Stuffer,

All coaches are biased. They are biased to the kids who worked the hardest, listen the best and cause the least trouble.

90879,

I would seek out to find out the coaches experience. What level did they play at? Where did they learn the game? What level of success have they had as a player and coach? What are their qualifications? What is their level of coaching experience and how long have they been doing it for?

Also find out about the Junior Development Officers they have in place.

A lot of people say that the bigger clubs have the best coaches. That is certainly not always the case. Do your research and ask questions. Often a change for the sake of change ends up in a worse or same situation.

why not play div 1 at a smaller club. If you are that good why not go and play against the best.

Good opportunity to make the comp even across the board. and even when it comes to Nationals be a stronger more even team. Just a thought.....

Why not play at a smaller club?

Because the level of coaching means that you will not improve.

Because you will not get the chance to go and play at the classics.

Because you will not get the chance to play in finals.

Because after losing most weeks by 30+ or more, your team mates will quit leaving your team worse then when you started.

Because you are only paying for the clubs ABA team and they don't put any resources back into the juniors.

Is that enough reasons.

#90978

Any player who is motivated will improve anywhere.
The classics....so what if you dont get to play there is their career over......NO
Never playing in finals......once again while this is desirable is your basketball career over....NO
And some one has to lose each game played, but each new game outcome is not known at the beginning, despite what some tell you. Until its finished anything is achievable.
ANY coach(good or bad)can coach talented players.
But not all coaches can coach the less talented kids.That takes very special skills and these people should be supported more by the basketball comunity instead of the arrogance that flows towards them.
In essence how many players from SA make a living from basketball.
Very limited, so for all those wonderful coaches out there at larger clubs who think they develop players, crap...you just manage talented kids and only if they happen to be on the same page as you.

Anon above, quite a humourous response. No their career isn't over if they don't play at Classics or finals. But neither is it over if they have to play some div 2 - and train every week against (at the time "maybe") better players.
Your apparent distress shown at the "arrogance" shown by the bigger clubs is also interesting. The coaches at the big clubs that only "manage" talented players and not develop them - how do these clubs come by these "talented" players? Do they walk in the door at U10 or U12 as ready-made players? No - these clubs develop them (in turn with a hell of a lot of work by the players).

And what does making a living from basketball have to do with anything in this topic? Nothing - but that's right, your not interested int talking about the subject, but rather just whining about the ease of big clubs to produce good players and the arrogance they display whilst doing it.....

Ah, it's Janx, in to protect all things Centrals....:)

Actually Janx, I agree with you - to a certain degree. I think there are some excellent coaches at the "smaller" or less successfull clubs who do brilliant jobs with what they have. The problem as I see it, is they don't have the depth of coaching talent - the ability to provide quality coaches year in year out in all age groups. Some of the coaches you've named may be/have been excellent players - doesn't mean they are good coaches.

Finally, I do hope you coach again next year - you have a lot to offer Centrals and the boys program up there. I also wish Toddy the best of luck - a better Centrals can only make the overall competition stronger.

As for you debating with 90978 further, (if it's who I think it is) you two have had many sessions already on this forum - let's just say you'll agree to disagree!! :)

Any player who is motivated will improve anywhere.

But what about RATE of improvement. Which environment will enable the player to improve faster and increase his chance at playing higher level basketball?

The classics....so what if you dont get to play there is their career over......NO
Never playing in finals......once again while this is desirable is your basketball career over....NO

No it's not over - but by missing Classics you miss the chance to compete against (often) the best players for your age in the country. To see where you are at at an elite level. If it inspires a player to work harder to thrive in that environment they can only get better. It's hard to see how the best players are if you don't go there though... finals - ditto. You get another oppurtunity to play against the best teams.

each new game outcome is not known at the beginning, despite what some tell you

Laughable. With the current competition structured as it is - this is not true. Which is unfortunate for both the top end and bottom end players.

Janx,

Agreed that on paper those people have a good level of basketball knowledge.

But what you are saying does not make sence. Are you saying that every person that played under Orlick and Spencer would be a good coaching director? If so, why doesn't every club just find those people who did and give them a job.

Same for all coaches. Which of the coaches on your coaching staff was Scott Butler a better players than. I would say none. Right now he may be the best coach in the country in junior basketbll. So are you saying that becasue these guys can play that they are good junior coaches? Poeple are good coaches becasue they are good coaches! Again, to me, your argument of them being good players makes no sence.

Finally look at the results.

10 Boys - No team at all. And you want to be taken seriously.
12 Boys - last in div 2. Who is coaching that team, they must be doing a good job. (insert sarcasm here)
14 Boys - 2nd last, still not very good
16 Boys - 2nd last, ditto
18 Boys - 3rd last, your team is the best of the group.
20 Boys - Once Clausen (a North junior) leaves, they would probably miss out on finals. Currently they are doing well in a comp were not too many clubs care. Except for State Champs.

So for all that coaching nous, please explain the results. Adn before you give the other clubs have more, please consider.

1/ All clubs start each year with U/10's, not having any players.

2/ All clubs have the same number of kids near their stadium.

3/ Parents new to the sport dont actually know which clubs are bigger or better before they start playing.

It all comes down to resource allocation. Your clubs puts all it's time and effort into winning seniors.

janx,

Then how do yuo explain the lack of success, both as a team as well as that of developing players. Again Clausen learned most of his skills at north. Then grew into a player while at Centrals.

I would say level of playing has a minimal impact on coaching ability.

Results say that they are not good coaches. For the last couple of years, you have been touting the virtues of the coaching at your club. When are these good coaches going produce some results?

You could have played and learned the game from the best as an assistant coach or player. But that does not mean that you can coach yourself.

janx,

Again, what time frame are you talking. You have been ringing the same bell for the last couple of years. When will the "things we are putting into place" bear fruit. My opinion is that before any good comes of it, the club will choose to try and buy another ABA championhip and put the club back into debt. WIll lose any player with ability to another club because they "want better coaching" and will continue to put teams into div 1 that would not be able to win the div 2 comp, thus draggifn down the level of competition in this state. Becasue this is exactly what has happened for the last 25 years that I have been involved in SA Basketball. Promise after promise have lead the club back to exactly where you are now, making promises.

And yes, I do get annoyed at clubs like yours that continually erode the competition. That your club is unwilling to play in a competitive enviroment is everything that is wrong with basketball in this state. It is why we have slipped on a National standing as a state. And it is why we struggle to produce elite level players.

And your club has been spoken too regarding competition change. They were totally unable to understand that it is their lack of direction that leads country playerse to "drive straight past our doors". And that having teams in grades where they are gettign thumped makes players leave for other clubs.

Finally, producing a good U/12 team takes 2 or 3 years only! Do you think other clubs have ready produced U/10's or U/12's?

How about this, if in 3 years you have not produced a top 4 team in either the boys of the girls U/10's or U/12. You accept that things are not changing and agree to promotion/relegation!

These are not mutaully exclusive idea's. The reason these teams are not impoving is a culture of participation rather than excellence. Why is it 1 club has been consistantly dominant over the past 5 years? Why has the "cyclical nature" not effected one club?

In my opinon it is because they imbrase competition rather than hide behind a guarenteed div 1 position.

Again, in your opinion, how long before the results of these coaches will be seen? What time frame are you looking at? How many of these coaches have any results at juniors level for you to qualify them as good coaches? Do you disagree that it takes only 2 years to produce a top U/12 team?

Becasue in my opinon, they are not good coaches. Becasue they do not get results. They have not produced players or won anything. You continually come back to the level somebody played at as a qualifiaction of their coaching ability. I would say out of 100, the level of playing counts for about 5. And considering the level of basketball that Richard Orlich and Steve Spencer played at your argument does not stand up. Neither were high level players. But great coaches. Get good coaches not good player to coach.

(#91411). You are a clown.

What is the length of a cycle?
How long is a piece of string?

if you're way is sooooo good, why isn't everyone doing it? exactly, all clubs took a vote, and it didn't get through, stop having a whinge about it, and do something about it!

Everyone isn't doing it because they believe that by guarentee themselves a spot in div 1, and resticting other clubs div 1 position, the better div 2 players from a strong club will move to a weaker club. When in fact, the last 10 years has shown the exact opposite has happened.

Other clubs also think that it is easier to spend money on their senior program and win. Than it is to put in place a junior program that is succesful, becasue it takes more work and resources.

So my argument is that some people are like your good self, and do not have the required information and understanding, nor a care for the long term of basketball when making decisions.

so what you are saying is that all the other Club presidents, except your own, don't care about basketball, have information about basketball or have long-term vision.

What a bold statement!

the only person that does not want a div 1 with ten teams from the same club?

An excellent point Anon - and thus to ensure it doesn't happen the onus would be on YOUR club to ensure that they improve their junior development to compete with and beat said Sturt teams. Instead of be happy with the status quo. The big winner would be those clubs willing to put in the work to develop juniors - with all of SA basketball being rewarded, not just Sturt (or North who also voted for it).

Anon,

Are you conceeding that Sturt has the ability to develop 8 teams in any age group better than evrey other club in the State?

And #91420, Yes. How many club presidents have long term, elite level basketball experience? And how many would be there if their kids didn't play for that club? And how many clubs would vote for something that they think would be good for basketball but make their club need to work harder at devloping juniors?

#91425: We're working on it.

Good to hear. But would you be working even harder if you had to EARN that div 1 spot? And if you really are working on it, why would you be afraid to have to compete with teams (not clubs) being graded based on merit of performance? Tho, if as you say one club dominates, perhaps you are not working as hard/smart as you think you are.

I'm not with janx's mob either - though I wish him every success with his efforts.

Agreed.

Anon,

So you do think that Sturt would be capable of producing 8 teams better than all the other clubs?

If this was the ultimate result under pro/rel, why hasn't it happened in Victoria or NSW. How did Dandenong go from a fledgling club to one of the biggest in Auistralia.

But I guess that Sturt guage their performance in a different way than you do. We measure succes at the Classics and Nationals. ie How do we compare against the rest of Australia.

PS Our club has constantly offered to assist other clubs with coaching. In fact we had a Southern representative out to midweek trainings and they may adopt some of our principles in improving their club. The probelm is that when we offer this we often get accused by people like yourslef of throwing it in people's faces and they turn the offer down.

yawn.

i'm sure a 10 court stadium had a little to do with Dandy's success...

I beleive they are already trying to implament these policys at Southern.

Dandenog starter with a 3 court stadium. Through effort they added the another 3. It only turned into a 10 court stadium about 10 years ago. Well and truly after they had become a powerhouse in Victorian basketball. The increase in stadium size was a response to their efforts in developing the asport. Not the ther way around.

AND A GOVERNMENT THAT WAS SPENDING ON INFRASTRUCTURE OVER THAT TIME.

SA (RANN GOV) WILL NOT SPEND ON GRASS ROOTS SPORT.
HEALTH AND EDUCATION/HEALTH AND EDUCATION/HEALTH AND EDUCATION/HEALTH AND EDUCATION/HEALTH AND EDUCATION/HEALTH AND EDUCATION.

SPIN AND MORE SPIN.
I WILL SAY NOW , I CANT SEE A NEW STADIUM IN ADELAIDE BEFORE 2020.
CANT EVEN GET THE STORM WATER PROBLEM FIXED IN THIS STATE.