Yes Bootney the 10 little Presidents have done it again another idea that will set the Central Conference even further behind the others

No idea. I don't get The Advertiser delivered and only check the sports section online which (as some will know) doesn't post all items.

Got any more info about it for those who haven't read the article?

Actually, just got a call from a reliable source indicating that clubs were unhappy with the costs of players and transfers, and wanted to either scrap player payments (meaning that they played for the love of the game, and there was no financial incentive to transfer to another team) or dump transfer payments. North Adelaide weren't happy with that and have, as I understand it, retained the concept of transfer payments for players going in or out of North's ABL teams.

North were also against the cap, saying that if a club could raise the money through sponsorship, they should be able to spend whatever they want.

But as it stands, to come in next year is the cap of $25k, not including the silly season (which is generally for blooding younger players) and probably not including coaches or on-the-side payments. Each club is contributing a few hundred dollars to get the books opened and audited to more or less police the matter.

I think the article stated that either the women's or men's program cannot have more than 60% of the cap. So, one club might spend 60% on its mens team and 40% on the women, while another might do vice versa. No team can spend, say, 75% on their men, and leave 25% for the women.

Personally, I wonder if the added expense and hassle detracts from other efforts the clubs could be making to market the sport and games. The current situation is hardly a problem. Forestville "bought" two big names, but those guys were replacing two other decent contributors. All of the other teams are fairly even at full strength, save Central. I remember a couple of years back when Sturt were dominant. We've just seen Woodville go down to Norwood, so things aren't too far off the mark this year.

Any opinions from people directly involved in the ABL competition or the clubs themselves?

The Presidents, again, take it into their own book to screw up basketball for the rest of us in South Australia...

The article also mentioned a draft for the Sixers players.

I think Sixer players would be a little disappointed with the news. They are professional & should be able to play where they want & for the best dollar. They might not like the idea of having to play for a club they didn't grow up playing with(i.e Oscar, Ng). Players might just say stuff it & play in N.Z or the SEABL in the off season.

The last 10 years the finals were decided half way thru the year, making for an average competition. This has been probably the most even of comps for many years.

The clubs that have traditionally been cellar dwellers are looked upon by BASA as a festering sore at senior level.

What BASA should be doing is getting the SASI coaches to do a helluva lot more work with these clubs, they need to do the work at the grass roots.
The gravy train is only stopping at a few stations at the moment, poor old Centrals is still on bread & dripping.

Whilst i agree with Issac that Forestville have recruited well to replace guys already making big contributions, some might see this change as a type of 'Forestville Clause'. I know there are a few F/ville posters on the forum, how do they feel about this?

Further explanation must be sought. It was my understanding that imports (such as E. Bradley) were paid somewhere in the minimum of 25K? Have i been mislead?

To my knowledge, for them to get a working VISA to be here, they need to be remunerated in the vicinity of $540 per week + Accommodation. So I guess if Woodville employed Eric for a full year, they'd be up for around $27k. However, I have no doubt they'd only be employing him for the playing season. So let's say around 26 weeks total (he was here before the Summer season GF) so you're looking at maybe $13k-$14k. He is living with the Pascoe family. (Mod: sentence removed).

Post 521 did not have a name but raised a relevant point however the answer is what type of senior competition does he/she want for their Club if you don't want a senior competition easy get to your Club's AGM and move that way if you do want a senior team from your Club what type do you want Centrals woman or a Woodville men's type your choice

It's not hard to type your name in for a start.....

Juniors are the benchmark of every and any club, I can say in my time that I do not think my club has neglected its junior program, and rather its senior program in the effort to gain the rewards of promoting good juniors to the senior program (read - no money issues).

However, I'm also in the position that I think that clubs should be doing their all to promote basketball in this state, and if that means that because they have worked hard to present a good sponsorship package to the right companies, then they have the right to spend what they earn. If this means playing imports or paying a wage to keep the best SA players in the ABL during Winter, so be it.

Infact, if it keeps ANY players in basketball at all, so be it. The big dropout rate of kids and seniors alike is because the enthusiasm that the sport once had back 10 years ago has disappeared...

Liberine,

I dont know what Club you purport to represent but I suggest you catch up with your Treasurer for the real world account.

Try your AGM or even better catch up with the BASA AGM to see how our Association is travelling.

The drop out rate is connected with the cost and committment to this game of ours.

My name is Yosemite Sam, and thanks for the pointer of how to include my name

Libertine,

how do you get the underline under your name? Regards Helped before

If you have an email address associated with your post, your name will link to your email address. Some people use anonymous accounts (with Hotmail or Yahoo), others just don't post any email address. You can just put a space or x or something in the field if you want the underline, but it kinda defeats the purpose.

Thanks Isaac,

and once again this is a brilliant website....I have told my friends and associates and expect a rapid take up on the opportunity to have a say.

All healthy stuff....love a relevant chat and good for the sport.

I leave the secret to who I am between you and I for a while or I could make a bogus email address like Libertine

Regards
Yosemite Sam

Been there, seen the bottom line, read many Management meeting notes and club account reports. I know where it's at!

And Yosemite Sam...Daffy Duck is sooooooo much more superior.

An ABL salary cap will hopefully go some way towards forcing clubs to allocate more funds to their junior programs. The standard of our junior club teams is falling behind that of those interstate (as the recent Classics results have shown), and our coaches are being asked to compete with interstate programs that fund full time junior coaching directors.

Any money that a club pays its senior players is money that is not being spent developing juniors. If we continue down this track, we won't have a competitive senior competition, because we won't have any juniors progressing into it.

If an ABL salary cap encourages clubs to put long-term development ahead of short-term gain, I'm all for it.

I think there is more value with kids going out and watching top ABL players play. The way to keep the top ABL players is to pay them well.

I think having NBL players, overseas players etc. playing ABL and doing the odd clinic for juniors this is more valuable than highly paid junior coaching directors.

Lets bring back the Kelvin Hendersons etc. and the days when even the 6er starters played ABL.

As ISaac said in the post - the competition is VERY even this year with every club been competitive so what is a salary cap really going to achieve?

Yes it sounds good, sounds like there will be more money for juniors but what is the end result really going to be?

Firstly, just want to say how ridiculous the salary cap is. How are we going to get big name players into our league when we can't pay them. Some SEABLE teams are spending $20,000 plus on one player let alone two teams. We were just getting to a stage where our teams are easyily competitive with the SEABLE teams, and now they go and ruin it. The competition couldn't get more even if it tried, and has been that way for years. The last 2-3 places for the playoffs are always decided by the last couple of games od the minor round. Apart from centrals and the old southern suns, all teams have played finals recently (mens)or have gotten close to(south hasn't lately but they should have). I can't see why because some teams can't raise the money to pay for big names due to their lack of ability to run a sporting club others should suffer.
Do you really think Brad Newley will ever play in our conference now!
For the record, I heard from a reliable source that imports had to be paid minimum of $15k. Which means if anyone has an import next year.....their cheating. Also what are the mavs going to do........don't think we will see Holmes there next year!
What a disgrace......Presidents should be ashamed of themselves.

Unfortunately clubs are run by volunteers. I totally agree with Vincent that all Junior Coaching Directors or someone along those lines should be full time. From memory Paul Mesecke was pretty much working for Sturt Full time and I'm sure it was no coincidence that Sturt had the best EVER points total at a State Championships near the end of Paul's Sturt days.

You Tiger people still think you made the right decision?

Anyway, firstly some clubs need a more professional approach to running their clubs, all clubs need to spend more time developing individual players not just teams and things like full-time staff, coaching clinics, domestic leagues are all not that far out of clubs reach. It will only take one club to do it and the rest will be forced to follow.

Or introduce a salary cap for Junior Development payments so the lesser clubs can compete. ;-)

I guess the idea is that players like Newley who grew up playing for the club will end up playing for it for free...did alot for Jacob.

(Mod: This post is not available.)

Vincent and Vega... you are both spot on.

Junior Program, Volunteers and people who give back to the game - are the success to this game of ours...they could even be Senior Players too!

The Senior Program must be balanced with the ability of the Club to recognise that there can not be an open cheque book approach in regard to securing the services of Senior players.

It is linked to your size and ability to manage your affairs.

Clubs cannot afford to use outdated methods to ensure they bring home the championship flag

There are many business people on Club Committees these days...volunteers with real jobs.

The glory days have cost this Assocation plenty!!!

Focus on your Junior Program and the rest will follow.

This aside, I think you find that the decision on the salary cap is far from signed, sealed and
delivered. There has to be a consensus...what did happen at the last President's Meeting on this matter...ask your Clubs.

Give the Presidents Group the credit to recognise that they have (not only at law) a responsibility to ensure that their Club pays the bills.

Somewhere in between there is the common ground...nothing too silly, nothing too quick. Slow and gradual with a foucs on your Juniors.

It's called credibility.

PS I am not a President; AND
Libertine, Daffy Duck always got his beak shot off!!!

Has anyone heard anymore on the salary cap?

Is the $25,000 salary cap the cost of both the men's & women's team combined or is it $25,000 per team?

The 60/40 formula might not get thru the players association.
If the cost for the mens team this year is $20,000 & the womens only $5,000 does that mean next year to keep the same mens team on the floor the club has to increase the payments to the women $3000+?

$25k total isn't it? That was how I interpreted it. So you can't spend more than $15k on either program

I've never heard of a player association, but it may be something we might have to look at in the future.

If the club says to the men they are cutting their payments to increase the womens, their might well be!!

The salary cap will just make the league weaker with guys who make their living out of playing basketball moving to SEABL where they pay their players a lot more. So no more of the likes of Pero, Bradely Mottram etc running around in our comp just the older players and a bunch of juniors who will get more court time than is warranted playing against another bunch of junior players.
Should never let more than one president into a room at a time.

Right on Zimmerman. here's an idea, lets put heaps of time and effort into deveoping players, and then loose them to the SEABL.This will be the case for Newley. What a joke!

can you imagine the SANFL taking money out of their senior programmes....Where are the juniors going to go once juniors finish.Only basketball leaders could be so stupid. We need our leaugeue to be as strong as possible. And again, apart from centrals, its couldn't get any more even. Allowing Centrals to possibly getting one big name player, isn't going to fix anything. They need help in the junior ranks.

Making other teams weaker, isn't the answer. we need to help centrals catch up!

absolutely agree with you timberwolf

Yes I agree I would rather go and see Holmes up against a Pero than say a Benson taking on Mason the salary cap along with their decision to shorten the season to 18 rounds makes you wonder if the 10 Presidents have any idea about senior basketball

I think the cap at an ABA level is a good thing.

To a certain degree it is a club's own decision how much they spend on their ABA roster but lets face it...there is no big money to be made by a club at ABA level. It is not like signing some decent players is going to result in them selling 3000 tickets a game and making more money than they spend.

In effect, whatever money is spent is to try and buy the trophies and isn't really an investment for the club personally.

I guess an argument could go that families may be more tempted to put their children into a club that has achieved well at ABA level so success on an ABA level is good advertising. Others may have more information in this regard but I'm not convinced that even if this does occur, that it occurs to a significant degree to justify large amounts being spent on recruits.

It is sad for the players that this is true as this will force even more of our decent young players into football as there isn't much money to be made in basketball.

The flip side is that clubs might be able to put more of the money they make into junior development instead of using the majority of the cash on their ABA squads. Besides, I would think that $25,000 is still a significant amount for most of the clubs anyway.

Good call Stephon.

Money spent on an ABA program is certainly not an investment in the future - it's a short-term fix which may or may not get your club a trophy. Chanelling money into developing junior players and coaches is a more forward-thinking approach for sustainable success.

It's a shame that clubs need a salary cap to force them to fund junior development, but if it works, I'm all for it. Most of a club's income is junior fees, and our juniors and their families deserve more for their money than they are currently getting.

If you have children playing district basketball, and are concerned about where your fee money is going, I'd encourage you to find out.

Just on this topic of junior development. While basketball at NBL level is really struggling in Victoria, their junior development programs have got quite a good wrap.

Some of their venues are quite awesome. I went to the 36ers v. Giants brawl last season and while the Sports and Aquatic Centre centre-court was a disgrace for NBL standards the venue was quite unbelievable as a whole.

A large amount of first rate courts, gym, pools etc.

John Rillie touched on it in his interview on NBL.COM that we are still ridiculously behind the US in terms of professionalism. For example, most colleges would have venues that NBL teams would die for.

It wouldn't be a bad thing for some of the saved money to be spent on organising better practise venues, more professional organisation, forward planning, etc so at least in 10-15 years each club is making enough money to afford to pay a lot more than $25k for both teams combined without charging the juniors so much that parents 'guide' them towards different interests.

Most of our clubs don't have the financial advantages that SEABL teams have. For example, Hobart represents a capital city! They are Tasmania's equivalent of the 36ers not Sturt. The same can be said for some of the regional teams. They get the whole town's financial support.

I would estimate that some of the Victorian ABA teams have a larger following and membership than the Melbourne Tigers.

Hobart are a good example of a club that has the financial advantage of being the only team in town. However, the Melbourne-based SEABL teams don't have that advantage, yet still manage to have better junior programs, higher paid senior players, and access to better facilities than in Adelaide (note that while some of the stadia in Adelaide are of good or better quality than in Melbourne, the clubs don't get much access to them).

The reason? Stadia and domestic competitions in Melbourne are run by the clubs (aka associations), and the money is used to fund junior and senior programs.

(Slightly off topic, I know, but I hadn't yet had an excuse to babble about domestic comps since the new forum started :) )

Referring tot he comment re losing Newley to SEABL.

He plays in the SEABL as part of the AIS team, so he wasn't "lost" to SEABL, rather, thats his "college" team.

Surely you wouldnt expect Newley to have knocked back an AIS cholarship, because it meant he couldnt play Central ABL?

And even if your referring to when he joing the Crocs, they may request him to play in SEABL, rather than ABL, as their coaching staff can keep a closer eye on SEABL (mind you, I think they would ask him to play in the Queensland comp).

Vega, you are right again. The development of Juniors, a meaningful partnership in your Stadia and not leaving it all to BASA is where the success of your Junior Program is.

Some of the posters in this forum are only concerned with the results of a short costly season called the ABA.

The cap, if it get's up will go part of the way to keep some of the Clubs that really cant afford it to get their own house in order..first.

You cant blame a player shopping around for the best price...but that best price is impacting upon every Club.

Yogee, not talking about Newley now, talking about when he is in the off-season at the crocs, he certainly would be free to come and play in the central ABL if he pleased. With this new cap, there is no way he will, and don't give me oh, he should come back and play for Forestville cos he owes them one bulls#*t, he is a professional basketballer, he has to make a living, he will go where the money is. Now unfortunately, that is not the central ABL anymore thanks to the idiot presidents!

Jirachi,

I am not for the Salary Cap..but there has to be some form of acccountability for the amounts that are spent. It has to be proportionate to the Clubs ability to raise money.

That is by default a good junior program...everythig hangs off this.

If the parents knew exactly what was going on there would be close to a half a dozen separate rebellions going on around the town.

Some Clubs, and you dont have to be a brain surgeon to work out who, are playing with fire at the moment.

Some Clubs are travelling well, some are not...there is not point having a 5 Club competition, where number 4 and 5 may drop out after the money has gone!

Why the Merger(s), Why does BASA owe so much, the Glory days were all ass about face!

Sounds like a sensible plan to me, but I don't run a basketball club so I'll leave it up to others to throw more valid opinions into the heap.

Jirachi, I like your proposal.

Forcing senior programs to be more self-sufficient encourages clubs to do a better job of running and promoting senior games. This might reduce the likelihood of the farcical 18 game season happening again.

Not sure that all sponsorship and fundraising money should be diverted to seniors though. Companies that sponsor local sporting clubs may be doing so to put money back into the community - they might not be happy to know that their hard earned money is going towards senior payments. Then again, some might prefer that.

As for fundraising money, most fundraising effort is performed by junior and their families. Would these people prefer that the money they raise is spent on junior development or seniors? I suspect that there would be a mixed response to this question.

For those against a salary cap, I sympathise. It is absurd that clubs have got themselves into a state where they have to be told what to do with their money, in the best interests of SA basketball. Unfortunately, that's the situation we've arrived at, and I applaud the presidents for thinking beyond the end of this season.

Ahhhh, I see!

I that case, I agree 100%.

Jirachi,

My point is for those others that think the President's Group has no idea what is going on.

My point is to raise discussion in this forum and get Club people to understand the difference that face basketball admininstrators these days.

Vincent I like your self sufficient idea for Seniors as well...but it comes (back) down to the same selfless individuals who continue to carry those in it for the money only.

How many Senior Players pay subs, how many raise sponsorships, how many get paid?

Sorry Jirachi,
your idea.

My Senior questions were rhetorical and once again put to some of the Senior Players that participate in this Forum.

Jirachi,

you got my vote on all counts.

At least we are talking about this stuff. I am all for a strong senior program, but it is so hard to continue to justify the continued expenditure without regard to the overall result. No quick easy fixes for me...fix it at all levels and make it consistent, proportinate, to your efforts.

Woodville senior men had to raise a shit load of money this season, and we still are. Coach made it compulsory for all of us to find a sponsor ($250), and some guys got more than 1. From memory, if we got more than 1 sponsor, the money went straight to the team for outings and "team things".

I'm pretty sure the Mavs players all have individual sponsors. Only reason I know this is because their player intros went for so long!! I stand to be corrected.

I know of some clubs that only pay 4 or 5 players, others that pay their whole team. Choice of the clubs really...

Good to hear BJT,

credit to those Seniors who continue to contribute to the Club!

Just had a read of the posts at the start, and I think I tend to agree with Tom Zorich and North in that if a senior program (player, coach, or official in the senior program) goes out and gets a deal (sponsorship) with a company, they should be able to spend it however or whatever they want.

Is there a difference between that and a junior team fundraising for their trip to Melbourne? All that money goes towards paying for the flights (or petrol), accomodation, food etc.

What is stopping a junior team getting an individual sponsor, providing a relief for club fees to the parents?

Although it is small, the players and coaches are somewhat responsible for bringing bums on seats, and therefore contribute to the club in that way. Could it be argued the players are paying their "fees" by having the paying public come watch them play? Just putting the question out there...

BJT, re sponsors, I agree, as long as it's clear to the sponsor that their money is going towards the senior program only, and that they are comfortable with this.

At my club, sponsorships are not targetted at the senior or junior program in particular - businesses simply sponsor the club, and the club allocates the money as it sees fit.

Re senior players and coaches being responsible for crowd numbers at ABA games, this is true to some extent, however the majority of spectators at ABA games are, of course, junior players and parents. A thriving junior program has as much impact on ABA spectator numbers as the standard of the senior teams.

Vincent, if one of your senior players found a $10,000 sponsorship deal, would that money go towards the senior team or the whole club? This is interesting in that each club may well have a different opinion as to what should happen with the money.

I'm not quite sure I fully understand the whole cap thing. Would that club be allowed to give the money to their senior team?

Lets say a mens team gets 60% ($15,000), and then they go and get another $15,000 in sponsorship and fundraising, are they allowed to use that money to attract better players and pay their players more? Does anyone know if this would be classed as a breach of the cap, and if so, what's stopping them from paying the players "under the table?"

in regards to crowd nonbers, big name players do bring in the crowds....anyone that was at the Forestville vs Eastern game at Wayville would know that there was a very good crowd there, better than anyone would have seen this year.....do you really think that there would have beem half as many people if Pero and Rees wern't playing. These players wouldn't totally pay for themselves, but would go close which is a major factor.

But the question is does the money raised by ticket sales throughout the season provide the club with a profit beyond what has been spent on their roster?

If they do then their decision is justified.

That is why my opinion re the cap at NBL level is so different to my view at ABA level.

I am perfectly happy to believe that spending $150k on a guy like Farley is a good investment because the guy sells tickets and a lot of them. Stars also make the team a more attractive option to corporations looking at putting sponsorship dollars into sport.

If the increased ticket sales and marketing exposure that result from a player outweighs his salary then that player can only be looked at as a good investment.

Don't worry, Michael Jordan made Jerry Reinsdorf a hell of a lot more money than Reinsdorf ever paid Jordan. Using Jordan again as an extreme example...imagine the flow on effect from him signing with the 36ers.

The team would get an unbelievable amount of media exposure. Sponsors would be lining up to get involved. Nike would jump on board. I am 100 percent certain that the team would achieve huge financial success even if they paid him in excess of the entire salary cap.

I just don't think the same can be said at ABA level. If I was to spend $50k on a great ABA player it would be solely because I want to win now but I just can't see how that $50k spent will bring any money back to the club that could justify his salary in different ways.

Of course we all want to see the best players at ABA level. Similarly it would be good if our top 15 year olds could look up to the ABA team as an achievable goal where they not only get to play but earn good money doing it.

However, as long as games are being played at Hillcrest in front of 100 people max then I don't see how people think that this is possible.

What an interesting idea! A salary cap for Central ABL. If it comes to pass that such a regulation is adopted won't it be a fun game for a club administrator to work out ways of getting around the reg. The challenge for a club will be how to circumvent it. Of course what happens if a club is found to be in breach of the regulation? And who is going to police it? Will a club be fined? I do not think so. It would be nothing more than a paper tiger, something that would give the clubs a feeling that they are all on a level playing field. If I were a hotshot club administrator I would wait for the regulation to be adopted and then gather enough legal opinion to challenge it. If successsful I could then offer my services to the 36ers to help them. They seem to have had some trouble in the past over this issue. Come on club Presidents bring in your salary cap give us lawyers some fun at your expense. Will that help the game progress? I don't think so, although it could give a media scribe something to write about thereby increasing the coverage that the ABL gets in the morning daily. Maybe I have just answered my question as to why a salary cap? To increase the amount of publicity that local basketball gets in the mainstream media. Cornesy and KG might also be interested. Good work, guys.

Heh, no way I'm a North boy!

More issues: should players who have come through juniors expect payments? If so, why?

And if this isn't the case, then I think the salary cap, after reflection, is a good thing, to help keep clubs afloat and promote junior development. After all, unless clubs are paying EVERY player, they're not paying much higher, are they?

My issue with the salary cap is the 60/40...why not just make it $15k each for mens and womens.

Libertine, I agree it should be equal (50-50) with mens and womens, but there is no way 15k should be spent on Centrals women, Woodville women, Southern women. That's just crazy. Centrals women scored 22 points for the game. They wouldn't win a game in Div 3!!!

So why are they still there?

Make them earn their spot from Reserves rather then just having them compete because they want to.

I realise there is/was a ruling that you had to have a women's team to have a men's team, but really are games like the one against North doing anything for the League.

I think not. 2005 bump them!

Maybe a combined Uni's team? Or just 9 and the girls get a bye instead of the trip to Starplex only to win by 80-100.

Why should it be a 50-50 split mens womens??? Financially...why? THat is the dumbest comment in the history of the forum!


Put that in a air tight BAG for storage!

As far as legal issues with salary caps, AFL Players Association tried to challenge it years ago, along with the draft, and it got thrown out of court.

j bags....ur totally right. I think if there is to be a salary cap(which is the most ridiculous ideas the the history of world sport), ther should be at least a 70/30 split. Men, in all sports that I know of earn more the women.....not being sexest, just stating the facts.So why should our ABL be any different.

I can hear the other conferences laughing at us. Wonder what the next brilliant idea is going to be....maybe getting rid of the mens and womens leagues and make it one big mixed competion instead. Idiots!

Maybe it should be 70/30 to the women to develop the womens comp.

No disrespect intended to any of the women, but the talent pool is so obviously a lot more shallow for the women, so getting more money into the women's teams to help with player development would be a great idea.

Personally, I think 50/50 is the way to go. What makes a female player any less of a club member, and therefore less desreving of payment, just because of her gender?

Precisely yogee, beat me to it!

how much money did abl connect from there club