gun dad

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Pete Maravich
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Ervin 'Magic' Johnson

What player is said to be the best someone will come up with an argument as to why they are not the greatest player ever. It's all conjecture to narrow it down to one player.


MJ for me

Wilt Chamberlain is.

p.s Pete Maravich??????

I reckon wilt and magic for , i cant decide between the two. cant be bothered explaing why, anything that needs to be said already has.

How can you say Jordans the best. He won championships in one of the worst eras of nba history, with one of the best squads ever assembled (96/97) and with one of the best coaches ever.

The only award MJ will get is the 'most media coverage' or 'most loved by David stern'. If wilt got that same treatment in the league today, he's be averaging at least 60-70 points a game.

im glad someone had the balls to bad mouth jordan, negativity towards MJ has become sacrelidge (i.e iverson said he wasnt scared of jordan as a rookie and everyone hated him for it, whats wrong with saying that, it shows maturity).

as some of the greats have already said the greastest of them all was Earl "the goat" manigald who actually played against wilt "the stilt" and woofed it on his head

go the Goat

never liked jordan, but magic was awesome - liked how magic shot threes over jordan and thomas in his last all.star game and scored MVP.

Everyone is forgetting Jabaar in their lists.

Best is Wilt - as ELG stated, imagine the media hype he would have got today, then the money, sponsorships, tv deals...

Oscar Robinson has to be mentioned. Anyone who can nearly average a triple double must be up there, but Magic is my favourite player of all time.

ELG and Undersized PF. Please, you know you have to take your medication! See what happens when you don't? You start saying things I'd expect to hear from cheezeburger.

How was Jordan's era 'one of the worst in NBA history?

Why was Jordan's squad any better than any number of squads he beat to win 6 ships?

The difference between those squads WAS Jordan, not Bill Cartwright or Stacey King or Cliff Livingstone or Bobby Hansen.

I'm a Spurs fan through and through, but I know that Jordan is in a league of his own. As Magic once said, "it's Michael Jordan's game." Couldn't have put it better myself.....

"If wilt got that same treatment in the league today, he's be averaging at least 60-70 points a game. "

I have to agree with theDoctor here ELG you are on something man ! No way would Wilt dominate to the extent that he would get 60-70 points /game. Modern day centres would be better suited to guard him, and wouldnt be pushed around like his contemporaries were. Ben Wallace would be a great match up for him - i'd love to see that.

And dont even get me started on that BULLSHIT about the bulls and Jordan !!

Lets c i wonder why wilt got so many points every game? I admit he was a good player but u have to remember back t hen there was no 3 seconds in the key so all wilt did was stand under the key get ridculous amounts of rebounds and points like the season he got the highest average of rebounds ever 22 per game.

The best player to ever play the game would have to be MJ. On his return in the 95/96 season the bulls went 72 - 10 , MJ won the all star MVP, Points per game title, Season MVP, Finals MVP and his team beat a very good Sonics team with Payton and Kemp.

And Magic Johnson did say himself it's Micheal Jordan's game.

Wilt was good for his era, that's it. How many seven footers were around back then??? How do you think Wilt would go against the likes of Shaq, Wallace, Ming, or the smaller Centres like Garnett, Duncan, Nowitski, Stoudamire???
Chamberlain from footage wasn't quick. wasn't athletic, just used his height and his positioning well.
I still think MJ is the greatest of all time and I agree with Mott, props need to go to the Big O, to average a triple double in a whole season is amazing!

this is a fairly stupid thread, jordan is the best there ever was, magic and wilt and other guys like that were good but just arent on the same level

Panther, please know your facts. Wilt's era was dominated by better centres than today's (it was the era when players out of high school/college wanted to be big men instead of today, where they want to be shooting guards)... Bill russell, Kareem, reed, Bellamy... He was generally known to be the quickest AND strongest player in the whole league.

How would I think Wilt would go against Nowitski? Game over, that's what it would be. Same with Shaq, Wallace and Ming.

You say 'props to big for averaging a triple double' most critics back then say he would of averaged a triple double for his entire career if blocks were counted.

Did you know wilt was in 2 of the most successful teams in history, before Magic's lakers broke that run? In philadelphia, they won 68-14 (1967). In 1972, they went 69-13, which included a 33 game winning streak which is the most in all professional sports, which still stands.

He managed to grab 55 rebounds in one game, against one of the best centres ever, Bill russell.

He is the only player to record a triple double with all numbers above 20 (a double triple double, if you like) 22pts 25 boards 21 assists. Remember they didnt keep blocks back then.

I could go on, but i'll just leave you with this...

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/totalstats.html

Notice the 72% fg in 1973. notice 50 pts a game in 1962. notice 48.5 mins a game in 1962.

And i said the 1996 bulls team. You know, the one with pippen, rodman, jordan, harper, kukoc (when he was good) kerr (the best 3 point shooter in history) and luc longley, a passing centre!

Yeah..... but he won 5 other championships. What's your point?

ELG .. pffffffffft .
My Dad could beat up your DAD !! ;)

Ugh he had the same team for 3 years. Im not denying Jordan isn't great (hes prob number 3 on my all time greatest lists) Im just saying Wilt is better.

Jordan is by far the best, in a league of his own

Bob Cousy would have to rate a mention. Jerry West is the best shooter of all time.

I think we are failing to mention Karl Malone......the best PF of all time

Greatest for me, would be Wilt......Hands Down

Next Kareem, Jordan, Magic & the Big O

ELG, you bring up the two seasons that Wilt's team ended up with a record of 68-14 and 69-13, remind me again what the bulls record was???
Your also saying that players described him as the quickest and strongest...in an era when hardly anyone dunked and most guards could only dribble with their preferred hand!!! Ha ha ha...give me a break ELG!

it pains me to say it but panther is correct.

Here's an interesting website with I guess a more of a mathematical view on things...
http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadershof.htm

Top three..1)Kareem 2)MJ 3)Wilt

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=FREEWO01

hows that for a name !!

how can you guys not say pete maravich he was and still is the greatest ball handler ever

I refuse to argue with you panther, i don't like close minded people. Obviously you have no grasp of what happened in the NBA before 1991. 'How many 7 footers were around back then?' is one of the most ignorant sentences i've ever seen on this board, ever.

If people think jordan is the best because he had 6 championships, why don't you think Russell is better? He had 11.

Oh wait, he didnt have the media coverage of jordan, so you don't know that.

Close minded...that's one way to back out of a discussion!
To quote me and then your response..."How many 7 footers were around back then?' is one of the most ignorant sentences i've ever seen on this board, ever."
To bring back the dominant centres that you brought up earlier in this discussion, let's have a look at their heights shall we...
Bill Russell- 6'9, Kareem- 7'2, Reed- 6'9, Bellamy- 6'10 and to throw in another centre for that era, Wes Unseld- 6'7...my eyesight may be going bad but I can only see one 7 footer in your group.

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player of all time. Bill Russel could stop Wilt Chamberlain, Chamberlain couldnt stop Russell

ELG, stop typing. You are embarressing yourself.

I'm pretty sure Panther was watching NBA a long time before 1991.

That 'media coverage' argument is tired and ignorant. The media didn't make up Jordan's achievements, they actually happened. Jordan's game is not an Iraqi WMD. It actually exists.

Where did you learn about Wilt's game? MEDIA!!! I'm pretty sure you didn't see him play personally, and unless you are the bastard child of one of his many conquest, do not have any direct access to the man or his family. Everything you know about the man is based on other people's opinions, and limited footage of highlights.

At least Panther and mines opinion of Jordan is based on countless hours of watching his games, along with thousands of hours of other games, from many eras including college, European leagues, Olympics, World Champs, my year 10 game against Immanuel College!!!! I've watched so much basketball in my life it's hard to actually fathom it.

Mine is certainly not an ignorant opinion, and certainly not based on the opinion of writers and highlight reels.

Panthers point, if I may, was probably that teams now have 2 or 3 7 footers on their roster. Guys with Wilt's build and agility are common place nowadays. I'm sure if you took the time to compare how many 7 footers were in the L back then, it would be a fraction of the number today...

I'm sure i could figure it out. Plus all the 7 footers in todays league that play as 3 men, it wouldn't really be a fair count now would it.

And i'm pretty sure i've watched a lot of jordan tapes as well.

and i sure am impressed with the fact you can't fathom basketball.

the average centre height back then was 6,10 the average now is about 7ft. you have to remember that that was back in a time when people didnt lie about thier height. so in actuall fact there is probably about an inch difference in average centre heights. also the centres of today aren't even in the same leugue as the sixties centres, theres what one maybe 2 legitmate centres in the leugue today compared to the sixties and seventees where basically every team had a good centre, and panther, how can you say he wasnt strong or athletic, he could bench press 500 pounds and had a 53 inch vertical leap, the second bet in nba history behind spudd. thats why wilt is the second best player in nba history behind magic of course, and cheezeburger bill russel said himself he couldn't stop chamberlain, but he could put a few speedbumps in his path

btw jordan is the fourth best player, behind the big o

Noted centres from Wilt's era(besides the ones already mentioned!)...
Paul Hogue-6'9
Jonny Kerr-6'9
Bob Ferry-6'8
Don Smith-6'9
Bob Rule-6'9
Zelmo Beaty-6'9 Leading rebounder on team-Bob Petit-6'9)
Nate Thurmond-6'11 (gettin close to 7ft, maybe with stiletto's!)
Jim Fox-6'10
George Wilson-6'8
Wayne Embry-6'8
One of the best rebounders...Elgin Baylor-6'5
Some teams back then didn't even have a centre!!!

ELG, like any basketball fan, you have watched Jordan tapes. How many of Wilt's games do you have on tape?

Where does it say Wilt can bench 500 pounds !! or leap 53" ?

everyone always says jordan is the greatest ever without giving one iota of evidence. It just shows ignorance when people say that centers where significantly shorter than these days. the diference which has been stated by average was about an inch. really what does an inch mean, its trival.

the 90's have been ackknowledge by many basketball journalists and historians as being a weaker era of basketball, depsite the financial and popularity boom it recieved.

jordan no doubt was an unbeleivable player, perhaps the greatest showman ever. but as far as who did the most for there respective teams, you cant put jordan number 1.

if you ever have taken the time to read books and listen to other people talk about the game, then you would know that wilt could bench 500lbs and jump 53 inch's. as a matter of face during the making of the film conan the destroyer, wilt could bench more than shwarzaneger.

and it is true that centres in the 60s,70's 80's didnt feel the need to lie about there height (i.e Sir charles claiming he was 6,6 to 6,7)

Considering the best known dunker is meant to be Earl "the goat" Manigault and he is listed as having a 52" inch leap I would really like to see where you get your information from there Mr Clutch?
Players these days competing in the Dunk comp have only about a 42-45 inch vertical leap!!!
I'll give you the bench press though, even Ben Wallace only benches 460!

On average, centre's back then were only about 6'9, if they had a centre!
These days if you look at rosters most NBA teams have about 2 or 3 7 footers.
If you want to talk about who did the most for their respective teams then Oscar Robertson for his all round stats and Bill Russell for number of championship rings..

Undersized PF, the evidence is common knowledge. Who gives a toss if Wilt could benchpress Rosanne?

Sir Charles is a PF, an undersized one at that.

I listen to Magic who agrees Jordan is the greatest. So does Joe Dumars. I thought you would hold their opinions highly?

Chamberlain was an average defender for most of his career, and only really got his team mates involved late in his term as a player. ie 1 dimensional !!
Jordan was an excellent defender and knew when to get his teammates involved to WIN .
Ill try and find some Chamberlain quotes on Jordan .

hang on wheres larry bird in all this?

DOC is was just emphasing my point that players today exagerate there height, maybe you need to read the post slower to understand. ofcourse magic says jordans the best, coz there like best friends. theres only one player arrogant to say themself is the best player ever and thats the man himself Wilt Chamberlain.

wilt wilt came into the league from college, a defender first and has been ackowledged by many of the great centres of the era said that it was "Near impossible" scoring on chamberlain.

so your last post was incorrect

wilt was a high-school high jump champion, who broke all high jump records and dominated the sport at the high school level. he was also a champion middle distant runner during high school, so these few things might indicate he's athletic prowess

Jordan easily. 53' vertical leap for Wilt... you idiot.
The diifference Jordan made to his team? check the Bulls 94-5 record, then their 95-6 record.
If Wilt had to play, lets say in the 90's, where one night he had to play Ewing, the next night Shaq, the next night Robinson, the next night Olajuwan and so on there is no way he would ever get close to the numbers he averaged back then.
Finally, when almost every knowledgable commentator I've ever heard speak on the subject says that Jordan is the greatest, with the exceptions not being able to name someone, and Magic, Joe Dumars, Reggie Miller, Larry Brown, Dean Smith and Doug Collins (to name a few) have all said that Jordan is the greatest, I think they might know what they're talking about.

just some intersting reading, seeing everyone on this forums associates height with quality of player, wikipedia states that

"Most centers are over 2.1 meters (6 ft 10.5 in) tall. The tallest players ever to play in the NBA, Manute Bol and Gheorghe Muresan, are 2.31 m (7 ft 7 in). Currently, the tallest NBA player is Yao Ming, who stands at 2.29 m (7 ft 6 in)".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball

mmm... 6ft10 ok thats a little differnet to what other people on this forum are saying

o and name we another player who had all of these attributes: unstoppable on offence, multiple multiple time defensive first team, dunk champ (athleticism), the greatest will to win, the greatest hard work ethic (Jordan is said to be one of the best PRACTICE players of all time, and added something to his game EVERY year), the basketball brains (watch him move in the 90s and tell me if there is anyone who could read the game better), strength (Jordan apparently 'pounded' people who had to guard him in the low post, nastiness (best trash talker apparently of his day), professionalism, court etiquette, passing ability, shot blocking ability, led the league in steals a few years, shooting ability (led the league in FG% one year), rebounding ability.
It's a no-brainer

ahh ok lockstock youve named 4 quality centres out of a 29 team league. it is widely known that in the late 60's and particular the 70's that every single team seemed to have a all-star calibre Center.

well as long as he's the dunk champ,

do i have to read out wilts numbers and achievments.

so jordan was the greatest trash talker ever and had the greatest court etiquette ...... yeh that makes sense.

lockstock all youve done is named every facet of the game and said jordans the greatest at it.... well done!

atleast thedoc and panthr acutally make an argument

there's 2 legitimate centres in the league today.

All you idiots who seem to think Wilt doesnt have a 53 inch vert, pick up a copy of his book, flip to the picture section, and watch him jump and get his waist above a 6'6 pole.

And jordan won a dunk comp big deal. Fred jones won one as well.

not the greatest, all I said was he had those attributes, except where I have expressly mentioned that he was the greatest.
and if you're saying you can't be a good trash talker and have good on court etiquette at the same time, then I think about 99% of NBA players, as well as about 50% of ABL players would lose out. Trash talking is generally private discourse between two players, court etiquette refers to a players response from unfavourable calls, there reactions when getting subbed, reactions to big plays, crowd banter etc. I think there is a difference.
And I couldn't be bothered naming every centre of those years, or doing the research for that matter. Those were the first 4 that came to my mind, and I was just generally remembering the 90s referred to by some commentators as the 'golden years' of centres

lol jordan showed great etiquette when he attacked reggie miller and got in a fist fight when reggie hit the game winner against the bulls

Well we can certainly say Lebron isn't going to be the best ever. The guy can't shoot foul shots to save his life. Thats 2 games in a row he's missed a foul shot to tie a game.

Lebron and clutch... do they match?

ELG thats just a jerk comment. lebron has shown many examples of being a clutch performer and a game winner. plus look at his numbers, there amazing espically considering his age. he's such an athletic freak, he's got the potential to achiev anything. by the time his career is done he will be up there with the greats.

Ok so I withdraw the court etiquette comment... maybe

You are as good as your last game undersized pf

RE: ELG

"your not always going to be succesful, but if your scared to fail, you dont deserve to be succesful" - Charles Barkley

I've got something for all of you:

undersized pf for the record to date lebron hasnt shown any examples of being clutch. hes had the ball in his hands a number of times but has always failed. if only he did shooting practice with salim stoudamire he would be unstopable.

ELG

"All you idiots who seem to think Wilt doesnt have a 53 inch vert, pick up a copy of his book, flip to the picture section, and watch him jump and get his waist above a 6'6 pole. '

I think you have been sitting on a 6'6 pole too long -your brain has gone to sleep!!
Reminds me of a joke about brains and milkshakes !!

"Wilt also earned accolades for other sports, including track and field (in which he ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds in high school)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

"In his 143 games against Bill Russell, Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg"

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/didyaknow.htm

not bad stats againts the best defender of all time, remebering the double and triple teaming he would have had to endure.

"Wilt used to lift weights with Arnold Shwartzenegger and Wilt got his bench press up to 500 pounds."

"Wilt, unlike other big men, was an amazing leaper. He won the Big 7 in the high jump his junior year of college."

Let me put it this way. If Wilt played in an era when centers were 6'6", then Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan played in an era when guards were 5'3" (Muggsy Bogues).

"When I coached the San Francisco Warriors, I thought Al Attles was the fastest guy on our team--by far. We used to gamble a lot--which player could jump the highest and run the fastest. So I set up a series of races, baseline to baseline. In the finals, it was Wilt and Al Attles and Wilt just blew past him. I'm convinced that Wilt Chamberlain is one of the greatest all-around athletes the world has ever seen."

--Alex Hannum, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 327

"He [Wilt] stopped me dead in my tracks with his arm, hugged me and lifted me off the floor with my feet dangling. It scared the hell out of me. When I went to the free-throw line, my legs were still shaking. Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game." -- KC Jones

Wilt is not a one-sport man, either. At Overbrook High School in Philly, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 in 49.0 seconds and the 880 in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, broad jumped 22 feet. Bill Easton, Jayhawks track boss, predicts Wilt will reach 7 feet in the high jump if he concentrates on it.

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/wilt/article3.html





skyhook... you say jordan knew how to get his teammates involved and knew how to win. is that why he refered to his teammates as his "supporting cast" for the majority of his career

When I think NBA I think MJ, Larry Bird and Magic. Although I don't think Scottie Pippen would be in the top 5, I did use to love watching MJ and Pippen together.

i know that a lot of this information doesn't prove his actuall basketball ability, i'm just stating the facts for the fools who think that he wasn't athleticlly gifted.

cause the celtics were to good

Good grief you are all tossing between Magic, Wilt Chamberlain, MJ etc. When you can play at the age of 40 and carry the stats MJ did, that is when you can safely say the guy is the best ever. He carried stats in his final season that a lot of star players these days would be envious about.

I've been waiting for one of you guys to say Kobe Bryant is among the best ever LOL.

If you opened a book and you had all the career stats of every player and the rings won you would lean towards Russel and MJ.

Wilt was by far the most dominating and Oscar would prob come in 3rd on my GOAT list.

MJ was the greatest of all time by a long shot you tell me another player of any era that has acheived what he has and i might change my mind he had it all, scoring, defense, assists, championships, and attitude there are some that come close and they are/were great players. but as a whole Jordan's the greatest...

I think most of the NBA players themselves(past and present) would say that MJ is the man.

without a doubt, he defines the game

im suprised you didnt say Dusty, Bballer!

To be fair to great players of the past, each player in his era helped revolutionise the game. Michael Jordan did this in his era. I think a player who says he is not afraid of manning up to MJ ... that's just words, MARK up against him and see if you hold the ball for too long.

Defence and offence, dunks, blocks, steals, 3pters, lay-ups, rebounds, assists the guy was such a complete player that we have players these days trying to emulate it. So of recent times yes Michael Jordan was the best, and might still be. It is, however, hard to compare to players of past eras.

All this talk about men, what about the greatest female of all time. LJ would be up there, possibly fighting out first position with Lisa Leslie

hortencia ? spanish girl ?

@ (#66482)

Good argument. Are you saying Robert Horry is as good as michael jordan? They both have 6 titles... Are you saying Andrew Gaze is better than Charles Barkley? Because Barkley has no championships, but Gaze has 1...

Big country, you say jordan's the complete player with 'scoring, defense, assists, championships, and attitude'

Bill Russell career stats 15 pts, 22.5 rbs, 4.3 ast, known as on of the best defenders ever, and has 11 championship rings.

so he must be better, right?

You need to get a life elg

I think Bill Russell would have to be the best team player of all time yes, but MJ without a doubt has to be the best PLAYER ever surely

Michael Jordan is the best player ever, hands down. No one player will be as good as he was, and he could probably still whip most of the guys in the L now days. Jordan changed basketball worldwide, made it was it is today. He had an almost complete game, and knew how to beat everyone with it.
MJ - No.1
Wilt - 2
Oscar - 3

Bill Russell did have a couple of Hall of Famers around him, Cousy, Havlicek, Jones that may have helped him win those championships.

1.bill
2.oscar
3.larry
4.earvin/michael

3 1/2.wilt*

all of you are wrong, the competition in wilt's day isnt as near as it is today everyone is stronger and faster wilt, in modern nba is as good as tim duncan is today, do you consider tim duncan to be the best in the game? didnt think so...shaquille o'neal has played throughout 2 era's of NBA bastketball if anyone is considered the greatest, it is the big daddy himself who can whoop on anyone's ass day in and day out (if healthy) so to say pete maravich is the best, would be wrong, he revolutionized the dribbling aspect of the game but so did Iverson so is he the greatest? Wilt scored 100 points on people on the same skill level as Tractor Traylor...even Duncan could do that if he didnt have Ginobili or Parker.

This is great, haven't followed a heated thread like this for ages!!! Not wanting to hang sh!t on anyone but if you're trying to take the intellectual high ground on your case then you fall back a few pegs when you spell there, thier and they're the same - that applies to a few of you.

Anyway, my favourite quotes from this thread are:

"I reckon wilt and magic for , i cant decide between the two. cant be bothered explaing why, anything that needs to be said already has." UPF - As the 5th comment of the thread where no one had said anything yet.

"If wilt got that same treatment in the league today, he's be averaging at least 60-70 points a game." ELG - so a player who gets media coverage will average AT LEAST 20-30 more points per game now than in the 60's even though a 3 seconds rule has been introduced in the mean time? I assume Wilt was pretty big in the media in his day.

"(Wilt)had a 53 inch vertical leap, the second bet in nba history behind spudd" Mr Clutch. Excuse me? I don't dispute he was a phenomenal athlete but that 2nd best vertical in league history stat was surely made up by yourself immediately prior to typing it. I would suspect 'Nique and Vince have vastly superior verticals for a start.

"just some intersting reading, seeing everyone on this forums associates height with quality of player, wikipedia states that

"Most centers are over 2.1 meters (6 ft 10.5 in) tall. The tallest players ever to play in the NBA, Manute Bol and Gheorghe Muresan, are 2.31 m (7 ft 7 in). Currently, the tallest NBA player is Yao Ming, who stands at 2.29 m (7 ft 6 in)"." - UPF - If you want to put 'facts' up on Wikipedia you just have to sign up as a member and you're in, you can put up all sorts of rubbish as long as it's roughly around the mark. It's hardly a model of factual athenticity.

"ahh ok lockstock youve named 4 quality centres out of a 29 team league. it is widely known that in the late 60's and particular the 70's that every single team seemed to have a all-star calibre Center" UPF - First point was very good, I was thinking the same myself, but you shot yourself in the foot with the 2nd part, every team can't have an all star (calibre) centre, that defies logic, the point of all stars is that only the best 1 or 2 from each division are worthy, not all of them.

"ELG thats just a jerk comment." Dude, ELG is pretty much the only one on your side in this thread, don't burn your bridges!!!

Right, I'm out.

See, you're wrong. Wilt did have a 53' vert. Do some research, otherwise you look like a punk.

Anwyay I don't know why this thread was brought back up. I can't be bothered arguing anymore.

what a jerk post from billo, maybe if he acutally said sumthin worth commenting on, it might bring this thread back. but as usual another kid whos seen "NBA Superslams" and thinks hes got knowledge..."sigh"

Supposedly Wilt ran track and competed in high jump in college at Kansas, so he must have been some sort of an athlete, for his size at least. And I'll be totally against everyone here and probably against sane logic and say that my greatest players ever are -
Dennis Rodman
Ben Wallace
Ron Artest
Andrei Kirilenko
John Stockton
I'd like to see how a team with those players in their prime would do though.

But Wilt's athletic ability has already been greatly debated. Helps if I ready each post first doesn't it lol

ELG - I don't know if Wilt had a 53 inch vertical or not, I don't doubt he was a crazy athlete, the bit I found ridiuclous was the assertion that he had the 2nd biggest vertical in league history. Surely you can't agree with Mr Clutch on that one?

UPF - don't assume to know anything about me, labelling me "another kid whos seen "NBA Superslams" and thinks hes got knowledge". I'm not the one looking like 'another kid' right the way down the thread with their arguments and manner.

I only discovered this thread yesterday and found a few of the posts hilarious so I summarised my favourites, I wasn't trying to spark up the debate and I deliberately left out my opinion for that reason, but for what it's worth I'd say it's a pretty tight 2 horse race between Jordan and the Stilt. I thought you two were a bit unfair in your view of Jordan and didn't really agree with all you had to say about him, but by the same token I thought a lot of the stuff Panther and others wrote about Wilt was harsh as well. You're all entitled to your opinions which is fine, I have no problem with the fact you think Jordan's over rated, but when crazy stats are invented (2nd best vertical in league history) I feel the need to highlight the ridiculousness.

Im telling you that the posts that you find funny and cant fathom are actually acurate

i dont know how to explain this to you billo. Wilt was a former champion high jumper in college and high school, ive read many places (including his official autobiographies) that he infact did have a 50inch+ vertical leap. i dont know whether thats the second most in history and quite frankly i dont care.

and by the way for those people who think that wilt didnt have to deal with a offensive 3 seconds in the key rule are just plain wrong. the 3 seconds in the key rule was brought in 1944. so the arguement should just end now!

a few more tidbits offensive and defensive goaltending was brought into the NBA while wilt was still in college i beleive, specifically because of wilt chamberlain. and in 1964 the lane was widened from 12 to 16 feet to try and slow down wilt.

I was happy to let sleeping dogs lie but if you feel the need to persist then so be it. Let me reiterate, I have said several times that Wilt is a great athlete:
"I don't dispute he was a phenomenal athlete"
"I don't doubt he was a crazy athlete"

Nor do I dispute that fact he may have had a 50 inch vertical (although I don't neccessarily agree with that 'fact', I don't know).

But you feel the need to tell me again and again that he was a high school high jump champion. I don't dispute that, what I do dispute is that he has the 2nd biggest vertical in league history, and even you yourself aren't agreeing with Mr Clutch on that. I also think you'd find half the league were high school or college high jump champions, these are incredible athletes we're talking about.

"If wilt got that same treatment in the league today, he's be averaging at least 60-70 points a game." - Do you agree with ELG here? AT LEAST 60-70 per game? ON what basis, that refs would give him an easier time because of media pressure and that would translate to an extra 20 ppg? Turn it up!!

"it is widely known that in the late 60's and particular the 70's that every single team seemed to have a all-star calibre Cente" So you're telling us here that there were 18 All Star calibre centres in the 70s, that none were any better than any of the others? All stars are those players better than their peers so of the 18 centres in the league they were all better than their peers?

I'm happy to leave this here but if you feel the need to repond and have the last word can you at least address each of the paragraphs I've quoted as I think they're all ridiculous which is why I wrote my initial post. Let me repeat, I'm not disputing Wilt was a great athlete so don't throw that at me again.

for some reason your stressing over the fact that wilt did or did not have the second highest vert in league history, i realli dont care. but wilt did have a 50+ plus vert (whereever that puts him in the all-time vert meter).

as far as ELG 60-70 point comment, i think your taking it a little too seriously, it is in referance to a humerous wilt quote.

when i said that 70's centers comment i said all star "calibre" that doesnt mean that every single center made all-star game. ill name a few centers of the era too further educate you:

Walt Bellamy
Dave Cowens
Dan Issel
Bob Lanier
Nate Thurmond
Elvin Hayes
George McGinnis
Bob Macadoo (played forward for lakers, but Center at Buffalo Braves)
Willis Reed
Jerry Lucas
Spencer Haywood
Darryl Dawkins
Connie Hawkins
Wes Unseld
Artis Gilmore
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Caldwell Jones

I think its pretty obvious that the real star of that era was non other than "The Big O" Oscar Robertson what a king of kings. Advantage Depp

it looks like there is 18 top quality Cs in that list Advantage Undersized PF but ultimatly Depp

Anonymous looks like u have seen Rebound. The Goats movie seemed to be a pretty gun player pity he threw it away and ofcourse The Big O is the greatest of all time The Man averaged a triple double and was close to averaging triples for four other years deffinatly my choice especially seeing as he did it against such greats as Chamberlain and Russle

where did you copy and paste that list undersized pf?

that list you brought out is a bit like your shoe laces undersized pf, messed up. spencer haywood doesnt deserve to be there for starters.

Nice list UPF, Kareem and Artis Gilmore the only 7 footers in the lot (apart from Wilt), Gilmore being the 117th draft pick in his day showing his all star calibre.

ELG's comment "'How many 7 footers were around back then?' is one of the most ignorant sentences i've ever seen on this board, ever." looks pretty stupid when you take a look at the height of the centres on your list. The answer is 3, Wilt, Kareem, Gilmore. Compare that to today with most if not all teams sporting at least one 7 footer.

So basically what you're saying is because he's taller it was easier for him. So basically you're saying Manute Bol should have been dominating like Wilt did, he has 6 inches on most people in the league.

Wilt Chamberlain to Michael Jordan:

"When I played, they changed the rules to make it tougher for me. When you played, they changed the rules to make it easier for you."

"Gilmore being the 117th draft pick in his day showing his all star calibre."

haha, artis gilmore is considered a hall of fame center and he was one of the greatest centers of his era. but you wouldnt know that.

ben wallace was undrafted and now look where he is. great comment billo.

just a reminder when that was in the day when centers didnt lie about there height either.

btw theres more than 3 7 footers in that list, billo is mistaken

Just touching on a point about centres these days lying about their height - what's the point of this? Wouldn't it make it more incredible what guys do/have done if they are listed at their real height? eg Ben Wallace at 6'7", Alonzo Mourning at 6'9", (and in the past) Hakeem Olajuwon at 6'10"

i agree, ive always found it remarkable, espicially with guys like wes unseld and charles barkley doing the things they do at their heights.

All I have heard is a alot of comments but no anaysis on who is the greatest. I am a big NBA fan, but overall love all the players and their impact on the game.
I love basketball and really find out who was the greatest!

If you want to judge the greateast, look at their accolades (Championships, MVP, all defesive, All NBA etc) and also their stats at the end of their career and athat will tell a story of winners vs losers, who was most dominant and consistent and who was'nt. A combination of accolades and stats tells the true story.

Remeber one game does not seperate a player, it's what he does over his career, as example Wilt was dominant for 7 years, but started to slack off towards the end of his career, he also only won 2 championships. His stats are hard to beat though, but free throw and playoff vs reg season stats are dismal. Players that are in the top 5 now, like Tim Duncan are only up there at the moment because they have won so much in a short period of time.

Here is the top 50 ranked (in current players.

This is the overall score, but I have 3 different ways of looking at it and in every way, MJ ends up on top.

There will be arguments about WIlt and Russel not getting all defensice , because it on came in 1969 and different eras, but there is so much you can say about cahnges to the game.

IN THE END THESE PLAYERS ARE UP IN THE TOP 10 FOR ONE REASON, THEY WOULD NOT BE BEATEN AND ARE CHAMPIONS. THEY WOULKD HAVE MOST LIKELY DOMINATED IN ANY ERA.

1Michael Jordan 27.20/30
2Wilt Chamberlain24.98/30
3Bill Russell 24.15/30
4George Mikan 22.33/30
5Tim Duncan 22.26/30
6Bob Petit 20.60/30
7Earvin Johnson 20.53/30
8Bob Cousy 20.46/30
10Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 20.20/30
11Larry Bird 19.81/30
12Oscar Robertson 19.38/30
13Shaquille O'Neal 19.12/30
14Hakeem Olajuwon 18.21/30
15Jerry West 18.20/30
16Julius Erving 17.67/30
17Allen Iverson 17.28/30
18Rick Barry 17.06/30
19David Robinson 16.81/30
20Elgin Baylor 16.56/30
21Willis Reed 16.50/30
22John Havlicek 15.90/30
23Kevin Garnett 15.87/30
24Moses Malone 15.79/30
25Kobe Bryant 15.53/30
26Paul Arizin 15.52/30
27Jason Kidd 15.21/30
28Sam Jones 15.04/30
29Bill Sharman 15.02/30
30George Gervin 14.90/30
31Karl Malone 14.86/30
32Charles Barkley 14.78/30
33Bill Walton 14.60/30
34Scottie Pippen 14.42/30
35Walt Frazier 14.39/30
36Isiah Thomas 14.37/30
37Tracy McGrady 13.86/30
38Bob McAdoo 13.29/30
39Elvin Hayes 13.00/30
40Patrick Ewing 12.64/30
41John Stockton 12.63/30
42Ben Wallace 12.12/30
43Clyde Drexler 12.08/30
44Dennis Rodman 12.06/30
45Hal Greer 12.05/30
46Dominique Wilkins 11.84/30
47Nate Archibald 11.40/30
48Adrian Dantley 10.95/30
49Lebron James 10.83/30
50Bernard King 10.38/30

Remember most current players need to win and keep stats are what they have just to stay in that position.

30 is the greatest rank you can get.

Players who played longer lost out on accolades later in their career (like Kareem), but got a better score because they kept their stats for such a long time.

MJ had it because of his accolades (he won the 69 accolades an ave of 5.28 per season (MVP 1st team etc). His stats in reg season and playoffs were excellent in all catergories (from PPG to FT %) whereas wilt was awesoem in Reg season but lost 20% of effecoiency when it came time for playoffs.

I hope this helps everyone.

Hmmm

Interesting but T-Mac over John Stockton, Dominique and Bernard King??

Keep in mind eras of basketball and stuff.

thats some good reading. but like all statistical information it has flaws.

according to that bob cousy is the 8th greatest player ever. and i think everyone would be in aggreance that there are better players below him in that list. like actual basketball. not stats

I cant believe undersized pf always has to have the last say in every thread

There is really no way to tell who the best player of all time is, so many variables, teams they were in, era of bball etc...

The only way to see is impossible... Put all the players up agaisnt eachother in their primes, it just can't happen!

There will forever be debate about the best bball players of all time.

As my Anaylsis suggested, we can't say could have! If he was in this era! The rules have chnaged etc

At the end of an era, all you can really judge a sportsman on is what he won and what he did. Now a few highl;ights here and there get the hype up of a player, but winning championships and also receiving personal accolades must proce that a player has achieved enough to rank them as players.


In repsonse to TMAC over bernard king and dominque, remeber the only raeson TMAC is up there is beacuse of his scoring titles and all star games. Don't forget he will no doubt get well below them when his career ends (As he needs to keep up his stats and accolades) unless he wins a crap load of stuff and lifts his averages.

In reponse to Bob Cousy at number 8. The only players above him have better stats and championships. He had 42 accolades (8 assist title, 10 1st teams, 1 MVP, 13 allstar, 2 allstar MVP & 6 championships) and his statslet him down from being higher, but he did do alot better than player unneath him.

Peace out and ask me more questions.

TIM DUNCAN WTF?! Above Kareem!? u have to be kidding seriously. Tim duncan wouldnt be in my top 10 CURRENT players, let alone all time.

Agree Michael Jordan the greatest, but Magic Johnson right behind him. Won everywhere he played (High School, College, NBA, Olympics). Made his teammated better, better than anyone else in history!

Thats why I had Jordan no 1, and Magic no 2!

Brett Maher!