Unfortunately sounds like Froling has done his achilles. Couldn't be a worse time to do it with his impending free agency too.

Hawks got through by emotion and some Melbourne players forgetting how to basketball. Harvey, whilst hitting big shots, is maybe due for a big score. Would hope Kell plays, is it anymore than a bone bruise and they're keeping it close to chest. Olbrich and Days will need to step up, it may have even thrown United off not having Froling out there.
Speaking of which, will the Hawks financially be able to look after him taking a year off, or could another team come in and give a reduced 3 year deal knowing the first is wasted. Would have been looking to cash in, might have given the Hawks a discount, but they can't really afford to pay him for a year and then hope he comes back from it. Could a team like Sydney or United give him that security he'll need.
From Melbournes side, apart from a bust out by Goulding, they're offence just looked stagnant. Worked in game 3 with Delly just backing down whoever and muscling it in, but didn't last night. And do they start taking notice of Hickey or let him go and continue to concentrate on Harvey. Should feast with Lee and and White with them rolling hard after high pick n roll and have shooting around perimeter.
There'll be plenty of testosterone whipped up in the pregame talks. Wildcards of Goulding and Harvey on both sides, plus depending on Kell, the steadiness of him and Clarke, who wins that matchup.
Then Ili potentially still being out will offset Froling out, both important in different ways.
Despite the away team winning them all so far, maybe that home crowd might get them over the line this time. Just think Vickerman has a few extra pieces on his chessboard and take advantage after a fairly chaotic series, scores being low not necessarily means great defence is being played and it's a slugfest, the last couple of games just look like no-one is in an offensive flow. I just hope the refs don't decide it. Let them play, no soft fouls and keep coaches under control.

Melbourne's defence has been very good so far and it's easter said than done but the Hawks just need to get out and run especially now without Froling. It's likely the only way they win the game without a genuine inside presence now. United like to slow it all down and stiffle teams with their smothering defence, just run, run, run.

I know the away teams are 4-0 but I'd love to see the Hawks do it in front of their very long suffering fans. 24 years since their one and only title.

Predicting a shoot festival.. winner clearly be team who puts most points on the board. No foling no illi cancellation. Can kell get up. Home crowd worth points but does united experience neutralised that. Too tight to call.away teams been doing the job. Ref's will be key. They love united.

This will be wild, so much at stake. Will the chip influence what happens afterwards.

Anyone think that the off-court issue between Novelly and Kestelman/NBL will have an impact on this game? Both teams can take advantage of this vibe. Very astute timing if it was intentional, but could definitely back fire on Novelly (the apparent instigator).

We may even be in with a chance of a Game 6 during the after-match pressers! Wouldn't that be a bonus? So watch this one on Kayo folks as Ch 10 will be on time restrictions for their next program. Kayo won't. Like buying CD versions of (vinyl) albums. [Ah, those were the days....!]

Another thread mentioned the irony of Kestelman having to give the trophy to Novelly (obviously, only if Hawks win. Double-irony If MU win. In that case, should Novelly have to give the cup to LK, in the Gong? I'd like to see that!

4hrs to go for the 2025 decider.

Whoever wins this one, we can all agree that it's been a fantastic and fascinating season.

This will be wild, so much at stake. Will the chip influence what happens afterwards.

Anyone think that the off-court issue between Novelly and Kestelman/NBL will have an impact on this game? Both teams can take advantage of this vibe. Very astute timing if it was intentional, but could definitely back fire on Novelly (the apparent instigator).

We may even be in with a chance of a Game 6 during the after-match pressers! Wouldn't that be a bonus? So watch this one on Kayo folks as Ch 10 will be on time restrictions for their next program. Kayo won't. Like buying CD versions of (vinyl) albums. [Ah, those were the days....!]

Another thread mentioned the irony of Kestelman having to give the trophy to Novelly (obviously, only if Hawks win. Double-irony If MU win. In that case, should Novelly have to give the cup to LK, in the Gong? I'd like to see that!

4hrs to go for the 2025 decider.

Whoever wins this one, we can all agree that it's been a fantastic and fascinating season.

Shea Ili is playing!! Yay - GO UNITED!!

Hawks missing Froling inside

at what point to the Hawks fans give up on booing every possession?

26 a piece at the first break

Great first quarter. So much emotion ad intensity from both teams. Hawks have left a few easy points out there and Goulding cold at the moment. United getting the better of the calls so far.

Peatling with 3 early fouls....will have to have a rest.

No one from MU in foul trouble

Cracking game - enjoying watching it

Another thread mentioned the irony of Kestelman having to give the trophy to Novelly (obviously, only if Hawks win. Double-irony If MU win. In that case, should Novelly have to give the cup to LK, in the Gong? I'd like to see that!

What are MU doing? 71-58 to the Hawks in Q3?

HJ Lee has a conscience!

Illawarras to lose from here

Just too much hero ball from Melbourne.

37-16 free throws disgusting

Who's the Hawks series MVP? Hickey? Kell? Harvey?

Hickey for me

Wowwwwww

This is amazing stuff

"Who's the Hawks series MVP? Hickey? Kell? Harvey?"

Hickey for me.

No Froling, no worries.
Hawks held their nerve and put up a huge total against the supposedly elite United defence.

Well done Hawks- the best team all year.

Hickey huge again. MVP for mine.

United blew a golden opportunity in game 4 but I expected this to be 3-1 Hawks, United had to have a bad game eventually.

Ultimately Hawks have more strings to their bow. United has less dimensions to their offering, less different looks that can create scoring over a long series once the opponent works you out. United played good D throughout the series but Hawks couldn't be subdued forever.

Hawks also the younger team. United would've been the first team in 47 seasons to win with 3 players aged 34+. Not only do they have those 3, they've got a 33 y/o, 32 y/o and 30 y/o and all those 6 play big minutes.

A great season by United- never expected to see them go this far. But, so close to winning it. Again. Frustrating.

Enjoy the win, you booing Illawarra bogans!

Well done Illawarra

Well done, Hawks

Tassie and then Illawarra

NBL is less ruled by powerhouses than ever!

Congrats Hawks. #1 from start to finish this season.

And yes - love Tassie & the Gong getting some silverware.
Your turn Taipans ;)

Well done Hawks.

Gotta be hard for MU....have had some Mu fans trolling the JJs re coaching and selections. Maybe some time for self-reflection instead of arrogance.

Yes, the 20+ year era of domination by Perth, Melbourne, Sydney and NZ well and truly over.

Although with 8 of 10 teams having a cash spend of ~$2.8 - $3.3m last year, that's not surprising. There isn't the spending gap that people on internet forums assume there is!

Larry's NBL in a great place.

Congratulations Hawks.

What a great story and journey.

So happy United got beaten.

Fantastic to see smaller teams win the last 2 years, especially the hawks

But geesh larry must have the nbl rigged, his team (he owns 15%) just lost to the asshole trying to push him out, must be that conflict of intetest.....

Hopefully tatum can stop complaining now, love what he has done last 1.5 years turning this team around

Congratulations Illawara, the best team one, i hope Tatum can relax on the bias a bit for now

Jesus Christ, channel 10 cut it off

Is this the first time Larry Sengstock has been at a game since the BA era?

Now THAT is class!

Delly gets MVP, gives it to Hickey!

Good on Delly, say what you want about him but that was pure class.

Shame on the Illawarra fans who booed him

Crowd classlessly booing Melbourne during the presentation ceremony. Point guard from the losing team wins series MVP.

What year is it?

Good on Delly but shame on the voters for even putting him in that position. In what reality is Hickey not that the unanimous MVP.

Congrats Hawks, the best team all year and much deserved. Will Hickey you are an absolute gun. So many great players in a great team, Kell, Harvey, Frolling et al. Congrats Todd Blanchfield in finally getting a chip. And congrats coach Tatum there is no denying you are gold as a coach. Now we all have to wait 6 months for it all to start again.

NBL tweeted out the votes. Seems fair enough to me based on the system used.

What were they? I'm not on the Nazi website.

Surely you make a tweak to the system, leading vote getter on the winning team wins the award

great moment between Delly and Hickey, loved how Hickey said it is the ring that matters.

Thoughts and prayers with the girl who was meant to receive a hat from Tatum and Tatum completely forgot!

The final vote tally for the Larry Sengstock Trophy was:

Matthew Dellavedova - 34 votes
William Hickey - 31 votes
Tyler Harvey - 17 votes
Marcus Lee - 14 votes
Ian Clark - 13 votes
Jack White - 11 votes
Trey Kell - 11 votes
Lachlan Olbrich - 7 votes
Chris Goulding - 5 votes
Sam Froling - 4 votes
Shea Ili - 2 votes
Darius Days - 1 vote


--

GAME 1

Bec Allen
3 votes - Marcus Lee
2 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
1 vote - William Hickey

Larry Sengstock
3 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
2 votes - Marcus Lee
1 vote - Chris Goulding

Derek Rucker
3 votes - Marcus Lee
2 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
1 vote - Shea Ili

Olgun Uluc
3 votes - Marcus Lee
2 votes - Chris Goulding
1 vote - Shea Ili

Andrew Gaze
3 votes - Marcus Lee
2 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
1 vote - William Hickey

--

GAME 2

Bec Allen
3 votes - Tyler Harvey
2 votes - Ian Clark
1 vote - Sam Froling

Larry Sengstock
3 votes - Tyler Harvey
2 votes - Ian Clark
1 vote - Matthew Dellavedova

Olgun Uluc
3 votes - Tyler Harvey
2 votes- Ian Clark
1 vote - Sam Froling

Derek Rucker
3 votes - Tyler Harvey
2 votes - Ian Clark
1 vote - Sam Froling

Andrew Gaze
3 votes - Tyler Harvey
2 votes - Ian Clark
1 vote - Sam Froling

--

GAME 3

Andrew Gaze
3 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
2 votes - Jack White
1 vote - Chris Goulding

Bec Allen
3 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
2 votes - Jack White
1 vote - Ian Clark

Olgun Uluc
3 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
2 votes - Jack White
1 vote - Ian Clark

Derek Rucker
3 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
2 votes - Jack White
1 vote - Chris Goulding

Larry Sengstock
3 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
2 votes - Jack White
1 vote - Ian Clark

--

GAME 4

Larry Sengstock
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
1 vote - Darius Days

Bec Allen
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Lachlan Olbrich
1 vote - Matthew Dellavedova

Olgun Uluc
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
1 vote - Lachlan Olbrich

Derek Rucker
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
1 vote - Lachlan Olbrich

Andrew Gaze
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Matthew Dellavedova
1 vote - Lachlan Olbrich

--

GAME 5

Larry Sengstock
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Trey Kell
1 vote - Jack White

Olgun Uluc
3 votes - Trey Kell
2 votes - William Hickey
1 vote - Tyler Harvey

Andrew Gaze
3 votes -William Hickey
2 votes - Trey Kell
1 vote - Lachlan Olbrich

Bec Allen
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Trey Kell
1 vote - Lachlan Olbrich

Derek Rucker
3 votes - William Hickey
2 votes - Trey Kell
1 vote - Tyler Harvey

Hawks fans need to look in the mirror... boo a guy who had no involvement in the voting process.
All good to have banter during the game, but once the game is over, have some class.

Agreed Turnover

Booing the constant bias from the NBL , this is one for the battlers

I think you need to look in the mirror Turnover

Agree with Turnover no need to give it to Delly then.

Booing the decision ≠ booing the player

Booing the decision ≠ booing the player

Melbourne being boooed ...oh no my heart bleeds for them

Congrats to the Hawks they were the better team. Hated them when Joyce was there but that has subsided now so happy to see them win it. Pretty ordinary LK giving the MVP to Delly but to be expected really. Just find a Hawks player to give it to FFS.

The award for finals mvp was decided on votes across the 5 games - Delly rightfully was that player.

Yep that may be the wrong way to decide the mvp but do not blame Delly blame the process.

Respect to Delly and respect to Hickey.

The booing was a disgrace. Hawks really proving themselves to be the least classy team around. Delly didn't award himself the MVP, what a horrible way to treat a player of his calibre in Australian basketball. Shameful.

Delly had a shocker today and we never hear of the votes for Finals MVP until now. Who cares what the votes come back as, read the room, LK should've overidden all that and just declared Hickey or whoever the MVP. We never would've known the votes regardless, nothing gets out without LK's say so.

The Hawks owner is currently making a push to try and push LK out, look at the NBL website Eddie fuckin McGuire declaring LK a genius who has a TV production contract with LK, the NBL all-time attendance record story posted the day before Novelly's takeover attempt came out. The NBL is currently in damage control and LK gives one of his team's players the MVP, even though they lost the series, Delly had a nothing game and the game is in Wollongong, of course Hawks fans are going to be pissed.

The crowd were clearly booing the decision, not the recipient.

The way Larry presented it, he knew there was going to be blowback and tried to justify the criteria.

While some people may think of the act as 'classy', it was a meaningless gesture.

Would Delly accept a championship ring and be at the unfurling of the banner if invited?

So they should put a system in place but then throw it away after the fact when its outcome isn't what certain people like?
Do people want integrity from this league or not?

Poor Hickey. Must be feeling devastated right now.

The problem is the perception that LK is unilaterally running the league. In order to avoid that, he should have single handedly overruled the voting panel.

How does that not make sense to you?

Since when has anyone cared about a Finals MVP system? Unlike the regular season MVP there should be an emotional element to it. No one wants to hear LK/the NBL try and justify why Delly should've got it he hardly stood out this series it's not like he dominated and just happened to be on the losing team. If Melb had won today I doubt too many would've cared if CG got the MVP instead of Delly. In the situation LK currently finds himself that's not the hill you want to die on, especially in the Gong.

Despite all the good LK has done trying to go the 'integrity' route on this decision is laughable. Everyone and their dog knows how much he favours United over all the other teams. The 2018 GF series, buying whatever player they want (hello Bryce?), all the FTA TV games United and their sponsors get, the historic first NBA game in Australia going to United etc. It never ends.

Hickey received 29 of his 31 votes in the last two games with the other 2 in the first game. (12 times awarded votes by the judges)

Delly received votes in four of the games (15 times awarded votes by the Judges) so perhaps a more consistent series.

Certainly Hickey was the difference in the last two games, receiving 9 out of 10 top votes, and a big factor in the Hawks title.

Perhaps a Man of the Match as well as a Man of the Series, like the cricket does, may be a better solution. No matter what the award, always people will disagree with the voting and the judges.

Would have been interesting to see if Delly would have handed over the trophy if the game had been in Melbourne.

I'm not saying Hickey deserved it even though he was just 2 assists shy of a triple double in Game 5 of a GF series. But in the absence of a standout dominating performer from the losing team, which Delly clearly wasn't, just give it to a player from the winning team, on their home court.

Previously said I'd like United to win based on Hawks carrying on, but have to admit went back to Hawks in second half, maybe jumped back on the bandwagon but was another fairytale ending.
As for the MVP, don't hate the player, hate the game. It is probably recency bias with Hickey having 2 amazing games to round out the series, Delly did the same in game 3 and wasn't good today. For a 5 game series that went to a decider votes were always going to be spread more evenly than a 3 game sweep. It's the fairest way to do it, but another way is to confer after the final and decide then. Kell missing a game could have been in theory the most valuable but based on the scoring structure misses a games worth of votes, penalizing him if it was closer. And before anyone has I go I said in theory. And interesting that it was mainly role players that got the majority of the votes. And Olbrich had a huge game today for a 20 year old. Another local Adelaide boy they let slip, instead we get Gristci and Rigoni.
Melbourne just looked flat today, which they have done for a lot of the series. Illawarra just wanted it more with prime example being the offensive rebounds. And Melbourne had a huge size advantage today which they didn't exploit especially as Goulding and Clark struggled outside. They made a couple of runs but Hawks stopped any big momentum swings. Looked like Vickerman didn't have anything up his sleeve, was even desperate to get Goulding going he drew up a 3 point shot for him out of a timeout despite him struggling.
As for the booing, meh, emotions. And who knows what percentage of the nearly 6,000 did it. And interesting how Goulding gave a shout out to the former United players, nearly like they were taken credit for developing them.
Anyway, the best team all year deserved the win and was a great finals series.

Serious question - will there now be pressure on Vickerman?

He is the one who makes the call on the roster, with Froling out they should have taken advantage.

Have relied on Gouldings outside game for a long time, if they went inside more things may have been different.

Did Loe have 10 at 1/4 time and not much more?

And Hickey's play in these last two games resulted in wins thus giving the Hawks the series. TGhat alone should probably overide Delly's decent but not outstanding games earlier in the series.

It did look like Vickerman had no tricks left in his bag but I think he got the absolute maximum out of this United team. United were probably a bit fortunate to even make it back to the GF this season and the Hawks shouldn't have needed five games to beat this United team. The Hawks were the best team all year and United just lost too much talent from last season's team.

Interesting seeing Joey Wright sitting behind Tatum. If Tatum leaves for the NBA I wonder if Joey is being singled out by the Hawks to take over?

Scout, no. Vickerman did a fantastic job it's not his fault Lual-Acuil, Travers and Hukporti all left for greener pastures. Plus he's still got 3 years to go on his contract and United will likely make a big splash this off-season.

United's only got White as an inside presence. Lee's not much chop and Loe has spent his career on the perimeter. That's two bigs that should be upgraded on especially Loe.

Zodiac

This years MU team was Vickermans - who picked Lee and Loe?

These are questions posed to other teams and their coaches etc re team line ups and how they played.

Interesting reading the MU fan page with a lot saying Vickerman should go.....he has the money to bring in who he wants.


Questions will be asked

Congratulations to Wollongong and the Illawarra region.

IMO United overachieved this season considering just their roster, and they very nearly won it all - unlucky not to, losing the last 2 games. Vickerman should be completely safe - it's disappointing to lose consecutive finals, but last year was a bigger collapse than this year, where I felt like United relied far too much on individual brilliance to carry them offensively through games all throughout the season.

Not sure it has been mentioned here yet. But there are two 'well dressed' young men that support United, who are at all the home games, mostly courtside, and were at My State Arena for a couple of the finals games last season that are, let’s just say, not very good winners (or losers). The fact those two daddy’s boys are hurting tonight is making me smile. Couldn’t happen to more deserving couple of mouthy pricks. 2 years in a row boys!!

Beach Baller - I do recall these 'well dressed young men' running around the court side seats at Mystate when MU where well in front for a win giving the finger to the crowd.

They gave it to the crowd and have remained in my memory as a representation of how not to act.


The irony of course now is MU supporters having a crack at others........ hard to take them seriously.

Any way you look at it MU were poor in the finals. Their passing game fell apart, they went iso and their big men got into foul trouble or didn't stamp their mark on the game, especially with froling out.

But vickerman should remain in charge no doubt.

There'll be changes with contracts running out, etc but they need to retain delly and upgrade their 4/5 presence.

Should Vickerman as other coaches / clubs be held accountable for their recruiting?


I like Vickeman but fin the hypocrisy of some re clear and present

"Hawks fans need to look in the mirror... boo a guy who had no involvement in the voting process.
All good to have banter during the game, but once the game is over, have some class."

Nah, it's been going on for a while. Delly was very arrogant and whiny in all the games vs the Hawks. I had to boo him. It’s worthwhile pointing out that the booing immediately stopped after his gesture towards Hickey. We’re a forgiving bunch in the gong. We even stopped booing flopface after he showed some magnanimity in his post-game speech... though he kinda ruined it by throwing the note with the script disgustedly as soon as he was done.

Anyway, what a day. I’m so proud. 24 years in the making. I fucking love the Hawks.

INMHO expect Clark, Loe and Delly to be moved on and probably Lee. Age is catching up or may have well caught up with these guys and with CG still under contract, chance DV may go with Illie, Cameron and Daniel's
Imagine as all teams will be looking for a couple of versatile bigs.

Wow I can't believe they have Gaze judging the MVP of a series Melbourne is involved in. No wonder Delly won. The bias is out of control. They’re not even trying to hide it.

Oh FFS. It really doesn't matter if they boo the decision or the player, the point is they booed and totally ruined a moment for someone who given an award out of their control. They look like disrespectful wanks, not to mention they just won a grand final series - they should be happy with that. It's not like Hawks are rolling in championships.

If you can't understand why that is gross, disrespectful behaviour then I'm not sure what to say.

"Oh FFS. It really doesn't matter if they boo the decision or the player, the point is they booed and totally ruined a moment for someone who given an award out of their control. They look like disrespectful wanks, not to mention they just won a grand final series - they should be happy with that. It's not like Hawks are rolling in championships."

Get over yourself. This sanctimonious bullshit is really pathetic.

@Frog39, get over yourself. Your sanctimonious bullshit is really pathetic.

Did anyone, especially the casual fan, know how the MVP was voted for? Even people here were surprised so imagine a pumped up crowd seeing the award given to a player on the losing team that had an ordinary game. In fact his performances were good, not great, just showed there was no one truly outstanding until Hickey the last two games. So no wonder they were confused and booed. And Delly realised that and did the proper thing, so there's really no big deal. How often are players from a losing team awarded the best player unless they had an absolute outstanding performance. Even when Iguadala won it years back, LeBron probably deserved it more with his performance, and I'm not a big LeBron fan.
So only thing to be questioned is the actual voting process and who's involved. Should wait until the deciding game and then weigh it all up then. I won't attempt the maths, but if a player missed the first two game, then averaged 40 and led their team to the title, they'd only get 3 games voting. The player on the opposition may have been more consistent over the five games, but may have been the best player in game one, second best in the next 4, so would receive more votes. Maybe best player gets 5 points, second 3, third 1. Or why not even have a top five, isn't rocket science. 3-2-1 just doesn't necessarily give enough weight to best player in series. Eg, Delly gets best player in games 1 and 2, then second best in 3, 4, 5. Total 12 points. Kell misses first 2 but absolutely dominates last 3 to win title. Best he can get is 9. Who's most valuable?
Sorry, Sunday night ramblings.

Gosh some of these reactions.

An award for finals series MVP considering the whole series makes sense. Multiple people voting makes sense.

The system is conceptually fine. Sometimes that player comes from the losing team and then it becomes awkward, is what it is.

The 'gong were always going to boo for several reasons, some agreeable, some disagreeable. It happens. *All* clubs have fan bases, including and especially MU, that get riled up and boo even though the booing is always cringe.

I honestly thought the Hawks were screwed for this game, to play like they did is the perfect completion to an absolutely phenomenal year.

Good on em, love the NBL!

Extraordinary scenes with humble champion Delly handing over the finals MVP, amidst the boos reigning down from the absolutely classless Illawarra crowd.

Incredible that they booed from the opening tip and kept it up after the final siren to Aussie bball legends CG and Delly. Absolute shame.

Hickey more deserving yes. The system should change.

Someone questioning Vickerman? Tell me you're trolling. I'm a lifelong United/ Tigers fan and I thought we were no chance this year. (As I said many times on this forum early in the season) I had bets on Illawarra and Perth, backing both for playoffs and title- so a little consolation awaits in my bank account.

Illawarra were clearly the best team all year. I thought they'd win this 3-1 and was pleasantly surprised United almost got it.

Loe is a 33 year old who came out of retirement and had a career best year in the starting 5. CG and Ili are 36 and 32 and playing as well as ever. Everyone thought Delly was cooked after Tokyo- here he is 3 and 1/2 years later winning GF MVP. Clark's done better for United than he did in Adelaide. There's success stories everywhere. Vickerman is as safe as you can get, and so he should be.

And don't forget Jack White- when he initially joined United 4 1/2 years ago nobody ever thought he was a chance at NBA. He almost made it. Now he's back and he was probably United's MVP of the first third of the season. Look at JLA, Mitch McCarron. Vickerman's been a victim of his own success many times.

"amidst the boos reigning down from the absolutely classless Illawarra crowd."

As a MU fan it's a bit cheeky to be talking about other teams fans being classless. Remember what MU fans did this season?

I booed. Absolutely no regrets. Goulding's a flopper and a drama queen, and both him and Delly act like they’re owed something. The whole United organisation is marked by arrogance and entitlement. They know the NBL has their backs at every turn. Well enjoy your loss. Losers.

We stopped booing when Delly gave his award to Hickey. That went a long way towards redeeming him. I suspect he won’t be booed anymore. Goulding is still fair game though.

The mock-outrage and pearl clutching over the crowd booing is hilarious.

Goulding was booed because he's a flog. You reap what you sow. He chose his legacy.

The MVP decision was booed in the same way it would have been booed in Melbourne if United had won on Wednesday and the award had gone to Hickey. Delly was heartily cheered for his action. Inspirational stuff.

I was there.

I booed.

I regret nothing.

Especially after 24 years of sometimes savage disappointment where just surviving to the next season could be an accomplishment.

Having said that, respect to the United supporters in the stadium today. I always thought United was more like a soulless well-funded brand-name than a real club with any heart, but today their people brought the passion. Love it.

[*All* clubs have fan bases, including and especially MU, that get riled up and boo even though the booing is always cringe.]

I was in the building for game 5 last year and can assure you Roth and the JJs were not booed.

I was also in the building for game 4 2019 and game 4 2007.

And that was when we LOST. there was certainly no booing the opposition in 2018.

It's classless behaviour and wouldn't happen in many places.

Imagine the shoe was on the other foot- United fans booing all game. People would be getting stuck into Wayne Peterson like it was his fault. And that would only be the beginning of the chorus of condemnation

AlexK and Derider- shame on you. Poor form.

Booing all game for no apparent reason is cringworthy and laughable. Booing after the siren is beyond the pale.

The joke's on you.

Winning without grace means you've won the battle but lost the war inside your own head.

AlexK very cool to out yourself as a flog...for all the reasons you mentioned

LV & "Sebastian", if you clutch those pearls any more tightly, you might choke yourselves.

Should the grand finals be played in neutral venue to prevent such lopsidedness. Can't recall sixers ever being anything but respectful. Passionate Hawks were though only protesting the concept that mvp should be from winning team which agree should obviously be the case. You win the series surely mvp is in that team..recalloutarageous when afl premiers don't have the mvp of the game. So no pious footballer crap how they think booing not karma.. Hawks delly winners uno numbero respect

Dotman "can't recall Sixers ever being anything but respectful". It wasn't long ago Ili was booed every time he touched the ball after the Melbourne incident.

Selective memory.

Some United fans just don't get what it's like to be a small market underdog against the big teams. Sure Hawks fans have a chip on their shoulder. Adds to the atmosphere.

Nothing compared to a hostile Euroleage venue in Greece, Turkey or Serbia for example.

Absolutely stoked to see my second Hawks title.

FSTOS I'm also a lifelong St Kilda fan (even since before Tigers/ United)

I guarantee you I understand what it's like supporting a small underdog club as well as anyone else does. Anyone vaguely familiar with St Kilda's 150 year history will know what I mean.

It's not an excuse for classless behaviour

Booing during the game - yes
Booing after the game - classless

Hickey should've got mvp but what happens when you go a system solely on numbers.

So how much of this playing group should Illawarra look to bring back next season?

Everyone?

No need to change what works

LV - I am a passionate Saints supporter who enjoyed their win over Geelong this weekend. Clearly remember 2009 with the Hawkins poster goal / Scarlett toe poke and 2010 feeling sorry for my Collingwood mate at half time....it has been a long time since then.

I do not believe Vickerman is under threat, my point is as with other clubs the selection of the squad has a right to be questioned. Have had several MU supporters say that Roth should be questioned after this year (not in those words, a lot more aggressively) and there is no doubt this will occur.

MU put themselves ups as 'the club everyone should aspire to' and do not mind making comments like 'they can talk about their little island, and we will win'. I respect their ability to attract talent but also believe they should act with some more humility as a club. They have some great supporters and I have no doubt they will continue to be a powerhouse franchise.

@dotman the 36ers fans booed Bradtke every possession for 12 years or so. They have even booed their own team on occasion.

Scout in both cases- United and JJs- perhaps you're being harsh.

Putting together a team is a yearly proposition but there's many variables and constraints- who's already signed from last year, the budget that's available from the owners, which players are available. Next stars - where the league pays part of the salary. Etc.

We don't know how much each player is paid, or what each teams budget is. It seems to fluctuate each year. There was a time 6 or 7 years ago, when everyone just assumed (rightly or wrongly) that United was this high spending team and outspending most other teams by a fair margin. It's only the last couple of years with the release/leaking of spending data, where people have realised that's no longer true (if it ever was).

I doubt Ian Clark and Craig Sword were expensive imports. Both United and JJs had downgrades from last year and perhaps spending was part of the issue. United lost a next star and they're irreplaceable. JJs were in a similar position to United 22/23 where they unexpectedly lost a player to NBA. Roth was a victim of his own success.

To my mind, Illawarra, Sydney and Perth had the best rosters coming into this season. United and JJs I thought would go somewhere between 3rd and 6th.

Ultimately I think it's a bit of an open question, and a bit of an unknown for those of us in the stands, the exact extent to which Roth and Vickerman have unfettered control over roster management given the constraints on them, and therefore how much blame you can apportion.

Either way, I have egg on my face because United came very, very close. They proved they were capable of winning the title. A clutch Harvey 3 the only thing that beat them in the first 3 games. JJs season was ruined by injury but they held themselves to reasonable account.

"I doubt Ian Clark and Craig Sword were expensive imports."

You post some crap LV but this pretty much takes the cake. Ian Clark is one of the most expensive imports in the league hence why Sydney & Adelaide only signed him for part seasons. Unlike MU who not only signed him for a whole season, did it two seasons in a row.

Comparing him an NBA vet and NBA champ to a G-Leaguer like Sword who aside from 2-3 games in the NBA has played in mickey mouse leagues like Venezuela, Mexico and now Taiwan is the height of stupidity. Once again your MU bias blinds you to reality.

Lol - His last NBA game was 9th April 2019

He's 34 years old. On most NBL teams he'd be the oldest player

I was a handy junior basketballer myself but I peaked in 2003, maybe I should demand a 6 pack for weekly payment in my social team

Clark hardly set the house on fire for Adelaide either.

No one really knows how much he's being paid. But there's been many better imports over the Vickerman era- Ware, Tucker, Trimble, Long, Kennedy, Prather etc

LV you have such little idea about anything but are so opinionated it's infuriating. The NBL commentators on Overtime etc have made numerous comments over the past 3-4 years that Clark is a highly paid import. They just said last week with his play in the GF he can expect a pay rise next season too.

The 36ers dragged their heels on signing Clark to replace Craig Randall because of how expensive he is. We cut Randall 6-7 games into the season, played with two imports most of the season whilst negotiating with Clark throughout at that time and then finally signed him with about 7-8 games to go in the season, imports are paid monthly, so he would qualify for the playoffs which never happened anyway in part because we dragged our heels for so long on signing him.

I think you could accept a losing MVP if they were very clearly ahead of the pack, but it wasn't the case by the count or by the stats. Otherwise I think it's reasonable to favour the recent, key games that decided the series.

If Delly was for it, and Vickerman potentially also, if I were LK I'd be running it past the panel and seeing if there was consensus to re-call it. Awkward now, but probably fair to have a better decision locked down for the record books. It'd be easy to write a statement correcting the situation, and obviously including Delly's genuine gesture as part of the justification.

And if you persist with game-by-game votes, perhaps have it as one element that helps with a final decision rather than the entire thing.

Yeah I watch every United game but I only watch Overtime occasionally

If thats the case then Scout may have a point about Vickerman. If United's paying Clark as much as those other imports I listed, then they need a serious re-assessment.

Not sure what past imports psy has got to do with anything when contracts continually rise but MU have always been known for throwing around big money to buy whatever player they want, that's why they're the only NBL team outside of Perth in the hunt to sign Cotton.

FWIW, the talk was MU were paying DJ Kennedy $700k+ that season lol

Well the data shows United's cash spend was lower than Perth, Adelaide and JJs last season- and that was when they had JLA.

So who's being "opinionated" now? Surely not the person throwing around stereotypes about high spending clubs that isn't supported by the publicly available data?

What data? The data leaked to a journo from LK the guy who owns MU?

Oh dear.

I heard there's a sale on tin foul hats at Kmart- get down there before they sell out.

Tin foil*

I wouldnt trust any data coming out of the NBL which is being highlighted by the owners themselves

They alter facts to create their own reality

MU and their spend would be no different. Remember LK was a big benefactor of the Tigers when they were doing weird things off the books to pay players.

Who is to say the Goulding and Delly arent being gifted apartments in LK developments as well as what is being declared.

Says the guy clinging to strategic leaks from the NBL to a journo to try and back up his pre-conceived biases. The fact you claimed Ian Clark is not a highly paid import, when anyone who follows the league moderately would know otherwise and had the audacity to lump him in with Craig Sword an obvious cheapie third-tier import who would've been on 3-4x less than Clark says everything.

"I wouldnt trust any data coming out of the NBL which is being highlighted by the owners themselves"

Exactly and don't think for a second LV actually believes it either he's just grabbing that fig leaf because he knows it won't ever be refuted.

The whole hostile takeover is not going to end well for Novelly.

It will do its job

The demand for greater transparency in the face of people losing significant amounts of money should be unexpected.

If Larry wants to continue the everything is wonderful tone then he should lie backing it up with accurate numbers and apparoprotae funds flowing through to the owners

Im still amazed that the teams dont collect any of the merchandise income. All the Harrell merch sold this season , none of it makes it to the player or the club. That is fundamentally flawed.

The Hawks MU final series was good to watch but I believe Game 3 of Melbourne vs Perth was the best game of the final series. Both teams had their best players on song with Goulding and Clark for Melbourne and Cotton and Doolittle for Perth going point for point.

The result was only decided on the last play of the game, great to watch as a neutral supporter. Hawks were a worthy winner of the title though.

" Im still amazed that the teams dont collect any of the merchandise income."

As in from the NBL shop? What if people bought from say the 36ers game day stand?

I believe all the sales are controlled by the NBL. I cant comment on the profits of game day sales. This is why some teams have started associated brands to sell and control their own merchandise vs the NBL produced products

The afl control all merchandise sales. United train out of a gym owned by Goulding, I doubt that goes to salary cap.

To be clear the AFL teams receive the money from merch sales, NBL clubs do not

https://www.federation.edu.au/about/news/news/merchandise-sales-set-to-boost-financials-after-epic-grand-final/

https://www.afl.com.au/news/547281/the-club-apparel-battle-guess-who-sells-the-most

What's the point of having the losing opposition team making a speech after the game? Especially since it was a printout mainly to thank their sponsors, cue the LK conspiracy theories. And Goulding is one of the more polarising players in the league, especially to the Hawks after his infamous flop during the season.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/basketball/embarrassing-flop-leaves-fans-outraged/video/d8d8c7582fe7a8f3d8a1ff023d586a16

So hardly surprising he got booed. And it was still a full house, unlike winning away when most fans would have left, so who knows what percentage were booing. They paid their money, unlike United fans making racist remarks, who cares. So can't really say much about Melbourne being all class can one. Or court announcers, need we go on or are some people so delusional that they think their team are all angels. I'm going with delusional as usual for the usual suspect. Clark and Sword making the same money FFS!

As for Clark, even a blind man can see he was making decent coin. As well as players getting a little bit extra, a nice car rental or housing on top of salary, from the richer clubs of course, LK being such an open book like he is. Goulding would have done very nicely over the years with non salary cap "gifts".

And, I assume Hummer was on similar money to Sword (pro rata).

But disingenuous of Gaze and Rucker during commentary to be touting Hickey as the standout finals MVP when they between them cast more votes for Delly.
While I thought it was classy that Delly acknowledged Hickey it really changes nothing. History will record Delly as the MVP and after all the hype all Hickey got from it was embarrassment and another trophy in his sock drawer.

Hickey keeps that up though and he will be on near marquee level money next contract.

The obvious awkwardness aside, does anyone think Delly wasn't *a* worthy winner?

I understand when it’s not clear air to one player, you try to give it to the winning team, and that celebratory bias lacks in the literal voting system applied across each game.

But I feel like Delly was deserving enough for people to go "oh well fair call"?

Still say it should wait till after the decider. Hickey brought them back from the brink, Delly didn't step up in game 5, even he knew that.
Clear cut and embarrassing for the league for the winner to hand over the trophy.
Didn't see the full presentation, but wasn't Sengstock trying to explain the decision, even he must have known it was wrong. It may work most times, this time it didn't.
Even the judges were a bit random.

IMO 2 simple changes, vote after the game and the winner is the highest vote getter from the winning team. Its pretty simple to fix IMO.

If you demand in every instance that the finals MVP goes to the winning side no matter what, then it's not the finals most valuable player award is it? You’re removing half the cohort that ought to be considered.

Do we want the best player in the series to get the award or just give the winning side an award regardless?

If you demand in every instance that the finals MVP goes to the winning side no matter what

That was in reply to Jonno's proposed changes - the last time the I’d happened was like 1993 or something?

It just generally seems like a non-issue that pops up as controversy maybe once every 30 years

The last time it happened*

It just generally seems like a non-issue that pops up as controversy maybe once every 30 years

LV you have had a Barry Crocker, Ian Clark is one of the top 5 highest priced players in the league. I have that on good authority.

Get away, LV not knowing what he's talking about, that's a first!
And of course the losing team should be eligible for finals MVP, it's just obviously way harder. Can never convince me LeBron shouldn't have won instead of Iguadala after averaging 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists. GSW could still have won it without IG, but LBJ was most valuable player on court that series.
This year it was most consistent player award because no-one fully dominated, Hickey was closest with his last two games.

Also with the current system you could potentially have at least 3 most valuable players ,eg if theres a sweep and player A, B and C get combination of 3, 2 and 1 votes. Do they keep a few extra trophies around on the day.