Gaze averaged 44 ppg one whole season, please.

In a semi-professional league.

Still Gaze for mine but Cotton closing.

Firstly, it's a different game today than in the Gaze day so comparison are just talking points. Gaze will humbly say he’s not in the conversation and that it’s Cotton. For what it’s worth they are super stars of their eras, enjoy it but on stats that the game is judged by it’s still Gaze.

The trouble is that there are factors that aren't easy to navigate.

Level of talent difference between the leagues, style differences both in the way the game is played but also umpired, what are the advanced efficiency stats, gravitational effect, adjustment for 48 v 40 min eras etc etc.

With that said, we don’t need a perfect world to have to argue - my recency bias says Cotton on court, off court influence Gaze for the sheer stature.

I know the NBL wasn't what it is now back then but a reasonable way to compare eras is judging that player relative to their competition at the time. Gaze was far and away the best player of his era, the same can't be said for Cotton.

Personally I've got no problem people thinking it might be Cotton he's sensational and deserves extra points for only being 6'0" too but Gaze dominated over such a long period of time and set records Cotton could only dream of.

One thing that has seemed to change recently is there's not many people who now don't accept Cotton as the greatest import ever, a conversation many were still having a few years ago

"Gaze was far and away the best player of his era"

He was the dominant scorer, he was certainly not far and away better than Leroy Loggins as an all-court player though, as one example.

In my opinion he was. The gap between Gaze and Leroy was bigger than the gap between Cotton and PJC or Kendric Davis.

At that time basketball people were debating who was better and opinions were split, and they weren't the only two in the discussion. Most who knew the game knew Gaze only played half the game and that his teams underachieved overall.

Gaze's supreme offensive talent over such a long period of time was unbelievable, however, which is why I think he still takes the crown. But he's certainly not clear of Loggins or Cotton IMO.

I think BC is likely the 2nd best import now after Loggins and will overtake Leroy in the next couple of seasons if he sticks around. When he does, he's still behind Gaze who will likely never be overtaken.

Gaze and it's not even close.

14 scoring titles
All NBL 15 consecutive years
7 x MVP
2 x champion
11 x All Star

NBL all-time:
1st in Points - 18,908
1st in Assists – 3,531
1st in Field Goals Made – 6,484
1st in 3-Pointers Made – 1,826
1st in Free Throws Made – 4,114
3rd in Steals – 1,075
1st - Highest season average points 44.1 (next highest 39.5)
1st - 40+ pt games career 101 (next highest 23)
1st - 30+pt games per season 15 (next highest 4)
1 x Assists champion
Games of 60pts, 59pts, 58pts

Outside of NBL:
6 x Gaze medalist
1 x NBA champion
5 x Olympian
World Cup scoring champ 1994
2nd in points scored in Olympic Basketball history
3rd in points scored in FIBA Basketball history

There’s more. This guy is the GOAT of GOATs.

There's more.

What pattymillsmvp and Perthworld said

longevity is important

Cotton is in his 9th season. Gaze played for 20 years and won 14 scoring titles

Gaze head and shoulders above.

If Cotton plays another 3 or 4 years like this season, there will be an interesting discussion

NBL released footage of Gaze getting 59 the other day. It looked like a training game with Illawara not even trying to play defence. Gaze had so many uncontested layups and 3 pointers - where does cotton get that ?

Todays game in the NBL is more difficult and higher quality players both in scoring and defence.

What is noticeable is Cotton's bounce right now. He has improved lift on his shot, maybe a result of the time he sat out and freshened up, or strength and conditioning is managing him well.

Every sport has improved that doesn't mean old champions would have been less into days game. Stats are stats. Sport science and training methods are far superior.

Not a fan of comparing players from different eras. They're both amazing (as well as Leroy). Just hope Perth fans appreciate what they have! (I think they do).

Just on a side note, on the people who claim the league is far and away better talent wise than it was in Gaze's day, keep in mind that Boomers teams filled almost entirely with NBL talent finished 4th at the Olympics once and 5th at a world cup.

I've watched since 85, so prior to that I don't know.
BC best of last 15 years and top 5 all time in my ill-informed opinion.
Logging, Rose and C Williams the best I've seen. But BC there too.
That's imports. Gaze up there too, incredible player.

I've watched since 85, so prior to that I don't know.
BC best of last 15 years and top 5 all time in my ill-informed opinion.
Logging, Rose and C Williams the best I've seen. But BC there too.
That's imports. Gaze up there too, incredible player.

There are too many variables to say with any certainty what player is better than another across generations. People have been having the Jordan/Lebron debate for a decade now and there is no way to prove anyone right or wrong. The NBL was basically a semi pro league for most of Gaze's career but I'd put the starting 5 of the better teams in the league up against the 5 of any teams out there today. It's just bench depth where things really fall off. And like Jordan, Gaze's impact on basketball cannot be denied and will outlive and outlast whatever Cotton does so for that he's pretty much the unassailable GOAT.

Anyone know if BC has ever got a triple-double? Hard these days with 40mins, as opposed to 48mins in NBA and the old days of NBL. Does anyone get them anymore in the NBL?

These debates are stupidly subjective.

Gaze is not doing what he did back then today.

The game gets better over time for the most part.

Like Wilt. People really thing he gets flose to 100 today?

Bryce's streak has been all time.

Is he best ever NBL? Gazes longevity prob gets him over line but so hard to compate eras.

The list of Gaze accolades above is so impressive, he is clearly the GOAT. Also watching that old game where he dropped 59 makes it clear todays game is on another level in terms of athleticism and the pace of the game which is great.

1 - Gaze (retired)
2 - Loggins (retired)
3 - Cotton (happening atm)

Bigup the past while living in the now

If you watch a video of say, 1990's Chicago Bulls, pretty clearly most NBA teams now would beat them. Bulls D wouldn't be allowed, they'd foul out in 5 minutes and wouldn't know how to defend the 3s

But you can respond to this 2 days

1. comparing eras is difficult or subjective (a valid point)

or

2. Assess the greatness relative to that era

I go for number 2 and it makes for interesting discussions

With that in mind, Jordan clearly the NBA GOAT and Gaze clearly the NBL Goat and it's not even close.

But if you wanna say "but basketball has evolved and Cotton plays in a more professional environment so technically Cotton is better" fair enough, you're right. Even though thats right, it's just stating the obvious and saying something boring, that only shuts an interesting conversation down

Not only wouldnt Bulls D be allowed but bball players are more athletic and faster pace of game etc

So of course, sport evolves. Thats obvious

But we can still assess greatness relative to the era in question

I don't want to derail the discussion but the idea that MJ, Pippen and Rodman were less athletic than any era is hilarious.

They would be athletic in any era, but the average athleticism and pace of the game has increased, such that their physical advantages would be substantially minimised if you put them in a time machine and asked them to play in 2024

on the question of bball evolution, This has a lot of interesting data

https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

NBA Players are 5kg heavier than the 90s but 1 or 2cm shorter

The more interesting data is around shot locations, which illustrates how the mid range style of the 90s has given way to 3 point shooting

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2367398

very interesting stuff

ultimately if a player wins X MVPs and X championships etc, it shows how dominant they were over their own peers

Number of teams also an interesting factor to discuss. Arguably, less teams in the NBL now (and more in the NBA) gives less/more opportunity to win titles compared to previous eras.

This impacts the Gaze/Cotton debate- Cottons titles were won in an 8 or 9 team league

Doolittle out for six weeks.

That escalated very quickly from the 2-3 week estimate posted this morning by the Cats!