Home cooking at this stage is horrible.

Are the refs accountable that offensive foul on delly was nothing short of putrid and embarrassing . Coaches challenge was embarrassing for that ref the guy from America Keith I think his name is . He would be the worst ref repeat offender but continues to get games why ?

NBL headhunted him from the US so if he's dropped they are made to look bad. What a ridiculous exercise and a waste of money.

Agree, DR. No wonder delly was jumping up and down. It was a no call.

That successful ref of Melborne challenge was terrible.

Almost as bad as the underam

While nz have got the worst of the calls, I again question Maor subbing and ripping into his players continuously, PJC looked totally peeved when call over. Pineau got zero time while breakers bigs defended poorly.
They are all plugging their sixth man of the year but no one ever mentions Bowen, he's been fantastic.

Id rather see Fotu than Dan P.

Anyone can blame the refs all night long, but if you don't adjust and play smarter you will only get the same result. I haven’t seen a lot of games this season but Māor doesn’t seem to be coaching as well as he was last season.

Maor had smarter players last season, at last, three minutes left in third and Pineau is on. No Gliddon yet either.

Why didn't they show a reply of WMW fourth foul...

Looked like another dodgy call

Another stitch up on PJC.

Ref telling Breakers to rain it in.

Why bother

Melbourne bigs repeatedly sneaky screening on on the run and only called once. Quite bizarre they're not called like other teams

Another total shit call from the US ref, I'm shaking my head in disbelief.

Finn super disappointing not only today, but the second half of this season. What is going on.

It seems like all mantas's shots have gone in and out!

Delany is looking so woeful now it's hard to see why he's getting any minutes. Fotu would offer more

No replay of Rubstatvictus fifth foul.

These are game-defining moments. And the Refs are making controversial calls. The media and commentary team are not being a critic.

Leafa playing over Gliddon? Yes refs been horrible, led by the US guy, nz though have played dumb, Delaney was always slightly overrated and has regressed.

I think it's the blatant shifting of the goal posts that has been frustrating with the officiating in 75% of all the games this season.

They set a standard with a few calls early. Coaches adjust to the calls and then later in the games they completely change how they are calling.

Handoffs and moving screens and holding off ball are the biggest issue but there's also been times when the ref's have been letting the first bump on the ball handler go the whole game and then suddenly start calling it.
Or letting the big walk under the shooter near the ring (that's a big one this game)

And some players are allowed to get away with contact that others aren't even on the same team.

Leafa is better than Gliddon

Gliddon is an excellent defender and can score, Leafa similar but when you are getting belted make some changes, imo I'd take Gliddon though.

Gliddon is not a great defender.

GLiddon versa leafa has nothing to with the result of this game.

I'm with BigDog, Gliddon is so overrated. He's a shooter who most of the time won't shoot.

Dalledova complains about that foul. Joke

Worst officiated games ever seen

Neither team really going hard right now. Refs ruined game

Melbourne have 6 on the court. Breakers finally get a call

Debatable who's performance was worse - the breakers or the refs?!

Good one. the Refs. not even close

Hopefully PJC plays in nbl again next season, Brisbane, SEM, Sixers should be chasing hard.

Cheatham in five spot just don't add up, JLA is just tall for him. Breakers so hot and cold. Refs bad but coach and team have to be smarter.

Cheathams performances generally seemed to have dropped a lot since early in the season. Much less physical. Prob the injury playing a role but he looked much better when he was direct and finishing close to the hoop

Can't see anyone other than melbourne taking the title this year. They've got a great range of threats and their two bigs dominate for 40 mins

USA teams take ages to adjust to FIBA games, even imports take a little bit of time to adjust to NBL even if they've played under FIBA rules before. But bringing in an American ref is puzzling, he just can't adjust here. Nba is all about giving stars the calls, even more now that it's virtually unwatchable how they get to the foul line (insert Toronto and Sacramento coaches rants here), so we bring in ref that is from that culture.
Bring in euro or Asian refs at least, not so much of a gap in play calls imo.

He isn't/wasn’t NBA

I apologise, didn't mean to infer he was from NBA, was college I believe, but that he was from America which has that referee influence from the NBA where stars are favoured even more than other leagues.
Even when players question the call with a "nah man, we don't do it like that here" he just seems confused and is like that's how I do it. Apart from the obvious, he just stands out in every game he does with his weird calls/interpretation.

Kolzee, United should be feeling very confident against anyone, with the one possible exception being JJ's

They have
- A proven coach
- 2 quality 7 footers
- Depth
- A couple of finishers in Doyle and Crawford
- The wood over United ever since they entered the competition 3 seasons ago

Theyve also got a better percentage than United. Incredible that they're somehow only 15-12 with that percentage

I'd also add that I don't see a serious weakness in JJS

Perth, I question whether their D will stand up consistently over 3 or 5 games, and I wonder how many counters Rillie has up his sleeve.

Illawarra, I think United's bigs, and possibly Perth's and JJ's too, would dominate inside the key and get advantage on the glass and around the rim.

JJ's are quality at both ends of the court. Inside and out. They scout their opponent well, play a team game, with sufficient flexibility to let their closers finish games.

Perth, I question whether their D will stand up consistently over 3 or 5 games, and I wonder how many counters Rillie has up his sleeve.

Yeah that's a fair point LV about the JJs but I find Crawford and Doyle are too erratic to be depended on the way they are. Not just shooting either... they both tend drift in and out of controlling the game.

McVeigh and to an extent drmic have stepped up more recently though. To me McVeigh is one of the most underrated players in the league.

I'd prefer the JJs take the title cos i love the way they play but can't see it personally

Breakers press conference at midday today according to NBL Now podcast wonder what the big news is? Out of $$ maybe as mentioned on here recently?

Abercrombie announced his retirement

Fair play

JJs are the only team I can see beating Melbourne and vice versa.

Breakers could have eliminated the JJs with Lamb, they did not match up against him well at all.

Perth won't get there. Cotton is a high burn out risk because he’s overplayed and carried them all season. Rillie’s cosching is questionable given he’s got a reasonably good playing group.

Brisbane, Illawarra, Kings etc are all pretenders. Breakers path to winning it would be another team eliminating Melbourne.

I'm hoping United play JJ's because there's a fair chance it becomes an epic 5 game series, like Sydney vs NZ last year.

Whereas I would be tipping United to beat Perth comfortably, probably in 4.

Although United vs Perth would have the added advantage of history. Perth and Melbourne are the two greatest NBL franchises- the only two clubs who have been contending for titles for the majority of the NBL's history. Or at least the majority of the past 3 decades (since Melbourne struggled through the 80's). Yet they've only met in 3 Grand Finals, and the last two were fizzers. So an epic Perth vs Melbourne series would be particularly special from a historical perspective.

"he only two clubs who have been contending for titles for the majority of the NBL's history."

It's also true of course that Perth only began in 1988. But they've been a genuine contender for probably 75% of the seasons since then.

And Melbourne have been a contender for the majority of the time since the early 90's, except for a brief period at the twilight of Gaze's career (about 2003-2005) and the end of the Tigers era and beginning of United (2010-2017, with the exception of 2016).

It's also true of course that Perth only began in 1988.

Missed a key season in our history.

Apologies, you're right

I swear I was reading something the other day about them starting in 88, but it must've been about the playoff streak (which actually commenced in 87)

I was born in the 80's and my pre 90's NBL knowledge is pretty scarce. But interesting that these two great clubs share even more in common- struggled immensely in the 80's before becoming powerhouses- Perth first making the playoffs in 87, Melbourne in 89 and both clubs never looked back.

The trajectory is very similar too

Perth- commenced 82. First 5 seasons mostly abysmal (best season 13-13, overall 40-83). Playoffs in year 6 which started the famous streak. Made GF in year 6. Maiden title in year 9.

Melbourne commenced in 84. First 5 seasons mostly abysmal (best season 11-13, overall 33-93). Playoffs in year 6, starting a 12 year streak and 20 of the next 21 seasons. Made GF in year 9. Maiden title in year 10.

Truly the two great powerhouses of the NBL. Kind of bizarre they've only played one genuine quality GF series.

Very different impact off the court however.

In Melbourne mention the NBL, Tigers or United results in a "huh?" response.

Wildcats on the other hand are a local household brand name here.

Different markets. It's tough in Melbourne with 9 AFL teams (10 if you include Geelong). There's no shortage of things to do here- the cultural hub of Australia and soon to be Australia's biggest city.

But yes, it's incredible what the Wildcats have achieved off the court charging those ticket prices and achieving those crowds in a city that size. The benchmark of the league without any doubt.

In Melbourne mention the NBL, Tigers or United results in a "huh?" response.

No it happens when pro basketball in this country fell into the abyss for roughly 10 years, and then the only surviving Melbourne-based club had to compete against over 50 pro sports teams in the same city... this is the most condensed pro sporting environment in the world.

United is doing alright. Most games sold out this season, often long before game day

I had a 3 game membership and attended 1 game, partly for this reason.

I'd love to see them move to Rod Laver

Melbourne-based club had to compete against over 50 pro sports teams in the same city... this is the most condensed pro sporting environment in the world.

Surely you have to calculate relative to population perthworld?? But regardless it's a meaningless 'fact' to carry on with!

Anyway, I agree with you essenx... JJs v MU finals series. Cotton way to easy to shut down currently and as a team perth aren't coming up with any answers so can't see them making it

I'm thinking Melbourne, Tasmania final but would like to see how Perth goes. Wonder how Bryce will go in games 1-3 if it goes to three games both in Perth. Doyle, Crawford have to step up, they go missing in games. McVeigh is underrated, if he isn’t going then Jackie’s struggle, happens in their losses.

Hi PW, not sure about the 17 teams in London. Currently there are 6 in PL and 2 each in Championship, League 1 and League 2. They are the "official" ones as I suppose you could add in Watford and Luton but Luton is about the same distance away from London as Ballarat is from Melbourne. In terms of women's teams there are 4 WSL clubs and 4 in the second tier. Then apart from cricket, things fall off pretty sharply in London for top level sport. The top men's basketball team plays second tier and no women's at all. They have the one top tier netball team. They do have two RU teams in the top tier but the RL team plays second division. No Ice Hockey in the top tier and then you look at even lower profile sports.

Melbourne has the 10 AFL (which you can now double for AFLW), a similar number of cricket teams (messy trying to count first class and short form), 1 RU (for the moment!), 1 RL (perennial finalist), 3 ALM and 3 ALW, the 2 NBL and 2 WNBL and 2 Netball. Both have a grand slam tennis tournament and F1 GP (although Silverstone is even further away than Luton) and probably similar numbers of other one off major sport events (maybe).

I agree with KHD, I doubt you will find another city with the same number of "National League" teams in high profile (major TV coverage) sports.

Sydney would have similar to Melbourne though, just more NRL and RU and less AFL?

Of course their crowds are rubbish, Melbourne AFL average crowds would more than double Sydney NRL average crowds. But purely in terms of number of franchises it wouldn't differ too much? Sydney still ahead on population though

Sydney and Melbourne are the same with the only difference being residents from the latter hype it up more.

Back on London, they have seventeen professional clubs from the Premier League down through to National League level with half of them operating women's teams as well (apparently the opposite sex only add to the count for Melbourne though). Football alone is massive and dwarfs anything over here, and it's not the only sport.

[Sydney and Melbourne are the same with the only difference being residents from the latter hype it up more.]

Completely untrue

Ave AFL crowds 38k last year, NRL 20k

And the difference would be bigger with Mel vs Sydney cos Bris Broncos have the biggest NRL crowds, while some of the interstate teams are amongst the AFLs smallest (Gold Coast, GWS).

Melbourne has a massive sporting culture, that's why we get more big sporting events here.

It's a lot easier to get around Melbourne, Sydney is a traffic jam. Housing is a lot dearer in Sydney so there’s less money to go around for entertainment. Getting to Homebush or the cricket ground is a lot harder than getting to mcg area, tennis area and Docklands.

If we count down to National league level then need to count down to VFL level for AFL. PW, you did not read my post carefully as I mentioned the female WSL and second tier clubs. What other high profile sports are there exactly in London? As you mentioned, Football dominates even more than AFL does and things drop off sharply and London does not have anything remotely close to the Basketball/Netball and alternate football codes that Melbourne does.

@Dunkman not true, the Victorian sporting culture is longstanding.

F1 gets massive crowds in Albert Park which isn't easy to get to.

Go back to the 90's before Marvel existed, average crowds at Waverley were about 34,000 in 1997, 1998 and 1999 hosting Hawthorn and St Kilda. 26km from the city and you'd sit in the car park for ages getting out sometimes. That was with a population about 2 million less than today.

Crowds in Geelong have averaged 20,000 - 30,000 over the past decade (21,466 in 2023). That's 75km from Melbourne, and Geelong mostly play interstate teams there. Many Geelong fans live in Melbourne, but they're the 10th Victorian team, based in a city of 250,000 people still get 20,000- 30,000 to games.

I didn't say it wasn’t true, I gave you long standing reasons why Sydney have very average crowds. Yes Melbourne is the sporting capital.

What smith has done at the kings is exceptional even though most around here think he’s a tosser.

Those reasons are valid but again, part of the issue is cultural. Sydney doesn't have a culture with sport like Melbourne does

Adelaide likewise has a strong sporting culture and, like Melbourne their footy ground is accessible. And like Melbourne, the culture pre-dates the accessibility. They used to get decent crowds out at West Lakes which was horrible to get to.

National League is professional now, VFL is not. You Melburnians are something else!

Completely untrue

Ave AFL crowds 38k last year, NRL 20k

referencing*

OK this is a quick list off the top of my head... but gives you an idea of who the Melbourne-based NBL teams are competing against:

1. Carlton FC
2. Carlton Womens FC
3. Collingwood FC
4. Collingwood Womens FC
5. Essendon FC
6. Essendon Womens FC
7. Geelong FC
8. Geelong Womens FC
9. Hawthorn FC
10. Hawthorn Womens FC
11. Melbourne FC
12. Melbourne Womens FC
13. North Melbourne FC
14. North Womens FC
15. Richmond FC
16. Richmond Womens FC
17. St Kilda FC
18. St Kilda Womens FC
19. Western Bulldogs FC
20. Bulldogs Womens FC
21. Melbourne Storm
22. Melbourne Rebels
23. Melbourne Victory
24. Melbourne City
25. Western United
26. Melbourne Victory Womens
27. Melbourne City Womens
28. Western United Womens
29. Melbourne Renegades
30. Renegades Womens
31. Melbourne Stars
32. Stars Womens
33. Victorian Cricket team
34. Melbourne Vixens
35. Melbourne Mavericks
36. Melbourne Aces
37. Melbourne Mustangs
38. Melbourne Ice
39. Melbourne Hockey
40. Melbourne Hockey womens
41. Melbourne Boomers
42. Southside Flyers
43. SEM Phoenix
44. Melbourne United

PLUS

Boxing Day Test
AFL Grand Final
AFL Award season (B+F's, Brownlow)
AFL Trade season and draft
Melbourne Cup & Spring Racing Carnival
Australian Grand Prix
Australian Open
Australian MotoGP
Plus like 18-25 VFL/VFLW teams...

National league is not all pro, Wealdstone for example (one of the London clubs) is only semi-pro. Even Barnet has an average wage of 40K which is about 77K AUD. That would mean some of the lower rung players could be on about 50K AUD. Are you telling me that not one single Barnet player earns something extra from a cushy little sponsor provided job? That they can comfortably live in London on that sort of money? VFL players would be about the same (don't forget half of the players in a VFL team are also AFL listed and are "pro"). Most would earn a good amount of coin from the club and then would be provided with a nice little 15-20 hour a week job by a club sponsor, one that would have convenient hours and not be too taxing. Let's not waste time on debating what constitutes "fully professional", there are clearly more top level sport teams in Melbourne fighting for sponsorship dollars/fans/media etc than there are in London.

BTW PW, I don't live in Melbourne (never have and never will). Be careful about making assumptions young man.

You seem very keen to prop up Melbourne while being ignorant of the London market and making assumptions to support the former and dismissing aspects of the latter.

You're not debating the issue in good faith from a biased angle.

National League has gone professional now bar three or so clubs, it's now deemed as the fifth level of the pro pyramid yet you pick at it while listing VFL of all things.

OK this is a quick list off the top of my head... but gives you an idea of who the Melbourne-based NBL teams are competing against

Please OH please give us a list of those top level teams in London in sports other than Football, just don't say they are there and "take my word". Yes if you want to count National League (tier FIVE!!) then you have to count VFL which is TIER TWO!!! They still take sponsorship opportunities away from NBL/WNBL as Aussie Rules dominates the landscape in Victoria just like Football dominates in London. That is the point KHD was trying to make in the first place and on top of that there are more top tier teams in major sports in Melbourne than London but if I am incorrect then you MUST name them please (just like KHD did). For the record I would delete the hockey/baseball teams from that list as I don't think they are major in the eyes of most sports fans in this country. The big ones are Aussie Rules, Cricket, the two Rugby codes, Football, Basketball and Netball. Basketball is NOT considered a major sport in England as far as I can ascertain from the good old interwebs.

London lions play in the euro cup second highest competition after the euro league and do well, it's a basketball team.

One, Melbourne has 2 teams and just over half the population so KHD's original point of condensed holds, more clubs/teams fighting over a smaller pie.

Why would I need to list all of the pro London sports teams and events when you're so adamant I'm wrong? Been arguing with incomplete information/not understanding the landscape all along then I take it?

Talk about weird paraochalism.

Maybe because you can't list them? Gotta be able to back up your claims, after all you are the one claiming the high ground. And again, not parochialism on my part, I don't live in Melbourne or London, just thought KHD's comment was more accurate than yours and given he bothered to supply some facts and you can't/won't I weighed in. Still don't think you understand the actual comment itself. Even if London had a similar number of pro sport teams the "pie" is much bigger so it should have more. When you consider the six EPL clubs get a big slice of a global pie that Aussie sports teams don't get that makes the London pie even bigger. That was the whole thrust of KHD's comment that the Melbourne market is very tough for pro sports to get your share of eyeballs (in person or via TV/streaming) and therefore income.

I'll be comprehensively detailing the market soon but at the moment I'm enjoying doing you slowly, although I feel you'll ultimately reject the evidence because it doesn't align with your feelings. I intimately understand both markets.

It's way harder for say the London Lions to get a slice of the pie than Melbourne United.

Can't wait. You don't need "intimate knowledge" of any market, you can (with a little effort) find everything you need online. I have no doubt you will stretch the definition of pro and major as you have already done, so if doing that actually counts as "not aligning with my feelings" then you will be absolutely correct with that prediction. For example the average capacity of the arena in the BBL is a measly 2215 compared with 9555 for the NBL so does not indicate British basketball is all that big. The London Lions might be pro but hardly playing a big time league are they?
Population of Greater London is 9,648,000 (have to use that as Barnet, Bromley and Sutton are in GL and you want to count them in your list). Melbourne is 5,235,000. Those figures come from Macrotrends.
I count 39 from KHD's list only counting the major TV sports of the various football codes, cricket, netball and basketball.
On a pro-rata basis that means you need to come up with 72 equivalent teams from those sports in GL so good luck with that.

Keep digging that hole for yourself.

It's not just going to be a poor list naming teams who barely play but a comprehensive summary of the frequency of fixtures in leagues and all major annual events. It will educate you on the sheer volume of sport in London.

Time and again Australians underestimate how big football is in Europe, due to ignorance or loathing the sport, and you're yet another example of it.

Don't waste your precious time on fixtures or annual events mate, just teams as that is the basis of the debate. Also don't include Euro stuff as that just makes the "pie" even larger. The point KHD made was about a very small market (5.2 million in a country of 26 million with no continental addition to that market either), having a large number of pro sport teams crammed into it. You so obviously still do not get the point he made do you? The amount of money washing about in London would dwarf that in Melbourne so you should have 10 times the pro sport going on. But what would I know, you know everything about everything the world over and are clearly the BMOC. The list is not a "poor" one of teams that "barely" play, they all play a structured home/away season in a very traditional sense, you are the one being ignorantly dismissive.

Just to be clear, your original argument was that:
"In Melbourne mention the NBL, Tigers or United results in a "huh?" response.

Wildcats on the other hand are a local household brand name here."

I doubt the first statement given how popular and strong the sport of basketball is in Victoria (for example seem to dominate age level national champs based on what I read here).

KHD then pointed out the condensed market which was a clear reference to how many other teams in national leagues there were in Melbourne and therefore difficult to get general media mentions and become "household names".

You responded by deflecting away from Perth and bringing in one city that you appear to have "intimate" knowledge of and mentioned just one sport. The debate is NOT about fixtures, indeed the more you play the easier it would be to get recognition so mentioning how many games are played in EPL (or any other sport) compared to AFL/NRL/A league/NBL etc is actually defeating your own argument. Any arguments about how much players get paid and whether that is their only source of income are also irrelevant.

The debate is simply about how many national league teams in major TV/media covered sports are competing for the eyeballs in the city (and how many eyeballs there are).

It really is a very simple calculation and should not take up too much time.

No one knew who United were or cared during an NBL Finals Series in Melbourne.

That's a fact, I was there during one and it was an observation that I have mentioned on this forum in the past on more than one occasion. There is no gain from me saying it, I was actually quite saddened that a NBL Grand Final featuring a Melbourne team was a non-event in Melbourne/no one wanted to talk about it or was aware. As a city I love Melbourne.

You seem very defensive of Melbourne - I'm not attacking it but merely pointing out some cold facts. The funny thing is my comment about the frauds in your argument about the Melbourne sports market yet your defensiveness overrides it.

London is way more congested as a sports market and now you are backtracking because I've hinted at the incredible amount of fixtures sporting leagues have there. Number of teams means nothing if they barely play - it's the totality of how many matchdays there are in total which results in other sports finding it difficult to crack said market. I know which city I'd choose to break into if the popularity of a sport was at the same level in both.

The funny thing is my comment about the Grand Final aids in your argument about the Melbourne sports market yet your defensiveness overrides it.*

You originally engaged based on the number of teams not how many games/how much ticket prices are/how much players get paid or anything else. You shot your mouth off with the 17 teams (only 16 because Wealdstone are only semi-pro) and then could not back up the "not the only sport" claim with actual figures which are easy to obtain with about a minute of searching. Your repeated claim about "barely playing" is patently rubbish. NBL is 28 games season, AFL is 23, NRL is 24, WNBL is 21 etc. If they were single figures that would be "barely playing". I would concede that London (and the UK in general) is more CONCENTRATED because the EPL casts such a huge shadow that a city twice the size of Melbourne has half the number of basketball teams for example and the one RL team does not even play in the top flight. Clearly sports other than Football have a rough time of it BUT the inescapable fact remains that as KHD originally argued (and the basis on which you engaged), there are more National level clubs/teams in major sports in Melbourne than London. That is the end of the argument as that is what it was about.

You called me a "random" poster but I am much more of an infrequent one and you prove why. Incapable of sticking to the point you originally tried to make (without statistical evidence) and then go off on tangents when someone actually does look at the statistics. Then you supply anecdotal "evidence" such as "gee, nobody I talked to knew about it" and think that is some sort of proof yet the 2021 GF was covered in both the Herald Sun and The Age. I have no idea about FTA TV as I don't live in Melbourne. I do know that the local NBL1 club gets regular coverage in local media and the sport has court shortage problems so is possibly too popular and the kids in my swim club who play sure knew what was going on and they don't even live in Melbourne.

Eventually I realise that I could get a more consistent and logical argument from most of the Year 8's I teach and stop bothering to waste my time with "know alls" who just tell me they know better, because as they old saying goes, "opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one". Besides which at some point you would no doubt claim a moral victory anyway.

I responded, and directly quoted, a post which claimed Melbourne was the most condensed sporting market in the world which I refuted with an example of how big the market in London is for just one sport to give an idea.

You're veering away now and not playing the ball but the man because you've realised you were wrong.

"I'll be comprehensively detailing the market soon"

Put up or shut up please.

London Lions crowds can't be compared to United’s. London gets better crowds in the EuroCup competition. Can’t wait for the Eightfinals. Wish London Lions team played in the NBL.