Interesting to note the comment:

"Guidelines for the Inclusion of Transgender and Gender Diverse People in Basketball in Victoria' policy balances "fairness, inclusion and safety"

World Rugby spent a considerable amount of time and money in developing guidelines for their sport and found that it was not possible to achieve fairness and safety if biological males were allowed to compete in the women's category, a summary of the reasoning is:

"Given that the typical male vs female advantage in the above-described biological variables and hence performance outcomes ranges from 30% to 100%, a substantial and meaningful advantage is retained even after testosterone suppression. This has implications for performance, given the premium on contact and collisions, speed, force­ production and power in rugby."

It is irrelevant whether this person ends up dominating or not, just as its irrelevant whether someone of PED's dominates or not. This decision is stupid and not only ignores the massive amount of evidence that this is the case, BV has contradicted that evidence in its statement.

Can someone please make a bookmarklet that modifies every online article to finish with "further inflamed by comments made by former NBA star Andrew Bogut."

I'm assuming koberulez is currently preparing a profanity laced op-ed about Bogut as we speak. Can't wait to read it!

Good on Bogurt for speaking out, the league is trying to sweep this in quietly with no dialogue between teams, this needs to be decided by players, not middle aged males sitting in BV who it does not effect one bit

The gender sport you play in needs to be decided on what your are biologically born as not what you identify as
And especially so when it comes to team sports
Shame on Kilsyths admin and coaching staff to even entertain this idea . As a female coach Lowe should show more respect for how hard women have to fight in their sporting leagues

Look at what's currently going on in America with the locker room debacle with the women swimmers and a fully entire transgender, why should women have to now share their private areas with men. Would it be acceptable for a naked male to be in a locker room with 15/16 girls or even women , and how is this going to impact the gay female player who really don’t want to be exposed to naked men, has anyone considered that angle, because basketball like a lot of women’s team sports has become a safe space for the gay women’s community

Basketball Victoria need a wake up call .

Here is video of a 70 year old trans woman competing in a feat of strength competition against 20 something strong, fit and healthy biological women

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=362016299261480

Cue Katherine Deves

this needs to be decided by players, not middle aged males

What if the middle age males identify as female professional athletes?

"What if the middle age males identify as female professional athletes?

What if they identify as pre-pubescent? Should they be allowed to play under 12's?

We segregate competition for a reason

"Do trans women have an advantage when competing in elite sports?

Without hormone therapy — yes. But even with hormone therapy, current research suggests trans women still maintain an edge in strength.

"Pretty much any way you slice it, trans women are going to have strength advantages even after hormone therapy. I just don't see that as anything else but factual," said Joanna Harper, a medical physicist at Britain's Loughborough University.

infographic explaining cisgender and transgender
Strength is one of several key factors — including explosiveness, endurance and lean body mass — that determine whether an athlete has an edge."



“For Tommy Lundberg, whose research at Sweden's Karolinska Institute focuses on skeletal muscle strength of trans people receiving hormone therapy, the advantages for trans women in strength are to the point where fairness cannot be ensured in most sports.

"The big problem right now is that the [hormone] therapy itself doesn't really remove the advantage to an extent that you can claim that fairness has been achieved," Lundberg told DW. "And actually, the IOC (International Olympic Committee) states that the overriding objective is, and remains, the guarantee of fair competition. That's what they say in their guidelines. So that's the problem right now: They don't go hand-in-hand."”

I think the players should be the ones who get a big say in any of these decisions as they are the ones affected.
How ironic these decisions get made under the "inclusive" banner at the exclusion of a female player who now misses a roster spot in a league that was designed for females only.

I think the players should be the ones who get a big say in any of these decisions as they are the ones affected.
How ironic these decisions get made under the "inclusive" banner at the exclusion of a female player who now misses a roster spot in a league that was designed for females only.


Exactly so, it's not like they didn’t have a biological female to play in that position either , they dropped their two bigs both opals .... Unbelievable really

Which club is it?

Which club is it?

Article says Kilsyth , they had Sherf and Bibby but didn't resign either

Bibby must be feeling bitter as hell about being dropped to make way for this transgender player

I love Bibby's response.

I find it strange that despite knowing nothing about this person and their circumstances, some people assume they're going to dominate NBL1 because of... feelings? They could be an end of the bench player for all you know. The fact they may have identified as a man at one point does not mean they are going to dominate all cis women athletes.

Do you know for sure that the player in question is a big? Or is this just another assumption like 7/8th of the negative comments on this topic?

When the $$$ starts going to trans women and taking away contracts from the best females in the future, that's the point when ....

Does it matter? IF the science is clear, which IMO it seems to be, it doesn't matter if they are big, small, a superstar or 10th on the roster.

Once you allow it you're changing the whole competition from a women's League to a League for those who identify as women.

The competitions were created to seperate the sexes. This changes that.

Have you also ever heard of the word "skill"? There are plenty of players who sit at the end of the bench and never hit the floor. Science this, biology that. My goodness.

The fact they may have identified as a man at one point does not mean they are going to dominate all cis women athletes.

If they average 50 and 30 then I'll bow to science. But knowing the reality I'll just sit over here and giggle :)

Everyone two months ago: "But why do we need Pride Round? Everyone accepts it already."

Everyone now: "Icky trans people must be excluded because of who they are."

Transgender athlete applies to join women's basketball league

Basketball Victoria boss Nick Honey said new guidelines had been developed with Basketball Australia, aimed at being inclusive, while ensuring the safety of those involved.

the sporting body added that the athlete had submitted to medical and physical testing under the new assessment process introduced for the 2023 season. The athlete had waited for a process to be introduced so she could apply.

Bibby must be feeling bitter as hell about being dropped to make way for this transgender player
Chloe Bibby ½
@chloelbibby As someone who plays in the NBL1, I don't care what they identify as or their pronouns, she/her, they/them, he/him because regardless l'm still gone try beat their ass on court. They want to play ball & I have nothing
but the upmost respect for this person. Go kill it queen!


Wonder if she will still feel the same when the 6,3 transgender out rebounds her , sets a screen and bumps her on the cut through lol .... Be interesting to see how much they change their tune then

But shotblocker, they are not 6'3".

But what if they were though? :O

What if they were a 6'11 160kg monster who just decided yesterday that they're a woman now and they start playing NBL1 Women and dominate and hurt everybody?

HAS NO ONE EVEN CONSIDERED THAT?????!!!?!?!?!?!!??!

This would make things difficult Luuuc! 160kgs is a whole lot of woman.

"Wonder if she will still feel the same when the 6,3 transgender out rebounds her , sets a screen and bumps her on the cut through lol .... Be interesting to see how much they change their tune then"

Why would she feel any differently than if a 6'3 cis woman does the same thing to her? Should she be outraged that cis women who are taller than her exist?

"When the $$$ starts going to trans women and taking away contracts from the best females in the future, that's the point when"

Considering this has literally never happened, I don't think this is such a big concern. Transgender people have been around since women's sports became a thing - we have data on whether they affect athletics or not. I mean sure there may be elite transgender athletes in the future but I highly doubt the numbers are going to justify the moral panic we have seen around this issue.

Transgender people have been around for as long as we have recorded human history, never mind sports.

Wonder if she will still feel the same when the 6,3 transgender out rebounds her

Wonder if she will still feel the same when the 6'1 cis woman Anneli Maley out-rebounds her.

Someone get her here in this thread to answer these important questions!

The argument shouldn't be about whether or not this particular trans woman is going to dominate or not, allowing her to play opens a door that many would argue (in the spirit of fairness) should stay closed

If you hadn't noticed the world is changing. People were previously not allowed to be legally married if they were same gender. Life evolves. Clearly some of you can’t

Can't wait for this thread to be locked again.

"(in the spirit of fairness)"

Transgender people do not have inherent physical advantages over cis women. Strangely enough, they all have different heights and athletic characteristics - just like cis people. Cis women can have physical advantages over other cis women - like you don't need to have identified as a man to be taller and stronger than somebody else.

If you're banning transgender people because you think they're athletically superior to cis women, then why aren't you banning cis women with these advantages too? Do we have some kind of athletic ceiling for women's sports where being too tall and strong is just unacceptable? This is the type of argument it's boiling down to and it's very silly IMO.

Interestingly girls are not allowed to play football or basketball in the boys competition fromU14's because the physical differences make it unsafe.so it’s not unsafe as an adult?

"Trans women are basically just men who wear dresses occasionally" is the dumbest take.

koberulz
Within the hour

Transgender people have been around for as long as we have recorded human history, never mind sports.


Wonder if she will still feel the same when the 6,3 transgender out rebounds her
Lauren Scherf is 6'5".

She is indeed but a biological male will still have stronger muscle mass better muscle twitch. Higher bone desire, a straight pelvis which allows fir higher vertical leap and a bigger wing spam , plus a much more stable core due to skeletal differences that occurs between men and women ( and not those who simply identify as women) biological men have naturally higher red cell levels , far better oxygenation and muscle recovery , that doesn't alter in-fact none of these facts alter simply because they take female hormones , a point you clearly can’t understand

This isn’t about being against transgender people, it’s about supporting biological women in their chosen sport, if this is permitted it’s going to open the door for more women to be displaced by men until women won’t have a sporting arena
It’s not what’s happening today it’s what’s going to ha in the future that needs to be considered

Give transgenders their own league , give them a mixed league if they need numbers but keep them out of biologically born women’s sports

Their is a reason why they stop girls playing against boys as they teach puberty, and that difference continues into adult hood

When do women in sport actually count, when is their safety and comfort considered , listening to Bogurts video, he states the rest of the league had not been informed and were told his zoom after it was leaked, the coaches asked if they had a problem, they all do but were too afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled transphobic, this has nothing to do with that, it’s to do with the safety and support of biological women some as young as 15 playing in this league

Basketball Australia Statement

Basketball Australia (BA) prides itself on being a sport for all, ensuring all participants experience a welcoming, fair and inclusive environment.

It's been disappointing to see the negative commentary and hurtful language used across social media over the past 24 hours since it was made public that Basketball Victoria had received an application for a transgender athlete to play in the NBL1 South competition.

We ask for patience and understanding as we support Basketball Victoria in navigating through this complex space with integrity and respect for all involved, and also thank those in the community who have shown sensitivities at this time.

- Ends -

Not every transgender player is going to walk in and dominate a woman's sport but the potential is there. Once you open that door you're going to struggle to close it or to bring about any other boundaries. Once the most effeminate transgender male is allowed in the NBL1, you have no justification in stopping Nate Jawai after hormone replacement. It is not about any one particular player. It is about what direction you want the competition to go in, what is fair for women, what is actually safe, and preserving a place for women to compete at the highest levels of their sport.

SP's argument that some women are taller and stronger than other women is invalid. Some cats are faster and stronger than other cats but do you put a lion in a cage with a stray cat and expect a fair fight? There are levels to these things. The strongest women on planet earth have lifts of the absolute average gym bro. There are thousands of men faster than the fastest woman in the world. Men simply have an unassailable physical advantage over women. That doesn't mean that every man is stronger and faster than every woman, but it does mean that if you open up competition between the two of them, one of them will get hurt... and it wont be the one born with the penis.

This isn't about being against transgender people, it’s about supporting biological women in their chosen sport,

it’s going to open the door for more women to be displaced by men

Give transgenders their own league

they all do but were too afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled transphobic,

Once the most effeminate transgender male is allowed in the NBL1

Some cats are faster and stronger than other cats but do you put a lion in a cage with a stray cat and expect a fair fight?

The strongest women on planet earth have lifts of the absolute average gym bro. There are thousands of men faster than the fastest woman in the world. Men simply have an unassailable physical advantage over women.

I don't buy into the idea that allowing transgender athletes to play women's basketball is going to increase the threat of physical harm to other athletes on court. There is always the small possibility that one player can injure another on court due to their actions. I don't think the gender status of those involved affects this possibility.

The cat/lion analogy for men and women doesn't work because the former are different species and the latter are most definitely the same species. Biology, right?

Wow BA, how about you consider the biological women in this sport , why should they be forced to share a change room , shower etc with someone with male genitalia how is that acceptable, let alone the physical differences on court, why should these women have to now choose to either stop playing or "put up" with a fully formed male making them uncomfortable just to bow to one individual.

If BA are so set on this give them their own league that's what being inclusive and fair should mean

There are inaccurate, uneducated, but understandable takes on this, but "IT'S A MAN!!!" is just flat out transphobia.

There are levels to these things

BA is not going to dictate showering arrangements lmao. I think we're nearing the end of the moral panic checklist.

A man with a p#### and some thinks it's a woman. Strange household some live in. Walking with the wacko's in the marches.

In fifty years time we will have men's, women & transgender open age comps in all world athletic sports. eg Olympics World Champs etc.

Dew95 are you talking pre or post op transgender? Asking for a friend!

Koberulz, you now know what a biological woman is because I clarified that for you in the other thread. Peer reviewed research and all.

No, you did not.

You can pretend that you don't understand the concept all you like.

But as I explained, everybody can easily be categorized as a male or female (except around 1 in 6000 people- the same likelihood of tossing a coin and it lands on it's side edge).

When somebody refers to "biological woman" they mean a female.

That's it. Simple. Stop obfuscating.

BA statement:

Basketball Australia (BA) prides itself on being a sport for all, ensuring all participants experience a welcoming, fair and inclusive environment.

It's been disappointing to see the negative commentary and hurtful language used across social media over the past 24 hours since it was made public that Basketball Victoria had received an application for a transgender athlete to play in the NBL1 South competition.

We ask for patience and understanding as we support Basketball Victoria in navigating through this complex space with integrity and respect for all involved, and also thank those in the community who have shown sensitivities at this time.

I understand the world is changing fast but I'm sick of BA bringing politics into sport. I thought we lived in a democracy?

Let the players/coaches make a vote first. Bogut is right, too many conversations being sweep under the carpet.

If I was a women playing in NBL1 I’ll quit that competition all together, where’s the consent consent?

The stupidest thing about all this is two things.

Knowledge of this player has been around for months now, now that Bogut has tweeted about it all the bandwagoners come out of the woodwork to voice an opinion. When in reality it has 0 impact on their lives.

Secondly, it's hilarious whenever someone says "if I was a woman" or “as a father of a girl”, like that gives them a valid allowance to represent women.
The only people going into a moral panic about this whole thing is ironically men.

What's the WNBA policy?

Knowledge of this player has been around for months now, now that Bogut has tweeted about it all the bandwagoners come out of the woodwork to voice an opinion.

as I explained, everybody can easily be categorized as a male or female (except

The fact that 1 in 6,000 people doesn't fit into one of two categories (at birth) doesn't mean you can't have sporting contests for people in those two categories.

And I'm not aware of any sporting example being an intersex person. All the examples (Hannah Mouncey, Fallon Fox, Lia Thomas etc) have been males attempting to compete against females.

LV, there has been a few intersex athletes competing in top-level competition. Caster Semanya, the South African runner, identifies as female but has naturally occurring testosterone levels that are higher than the baseline. She was required to take hormone blockers if she wanted to keep competing, but refused to do so, so I think now she is restricted to running longer distance races where the criteria are different.

Boguts vid on instagram was bang on!

Whenever koberulz posts I just shake my head.
Brainwashed and ruled by emotions

Facts > Feelings

Boguts vid on instagram was bang on!

The fact that 1 in 6,000 people doesn't fit into one of two categories (at birth) doesn't mean you can't have sporting contests for people in those two categories.

And I'm not aware of any sporting example being an intersex person.

Why is there so much hand wringing with no regard at all for the fact that BA and BV have said they have a process in place that includes medical exams and balances inclusion and safety? Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that this process does have the potential to exclude Nate Jawai?

This is something that is going to become increasingly important to manage as we move forward because, for the most part, senior athletes today will have transitioned post-puberty. In the future, there will be a greater number of athletes who take hormone blockers and never gain the athletic advantages associated with male puberty. We need a framework within which athletes whose participation does not pose a risk to others, are allowed to compete.

Do we really think there's an epidemic of people subjecting themselves to the experience of being transgender, just for the sake of playing elite women's sport?

Do we really think there's an epidemic of people subjecting themselves to the experience of being transgender, just for the sake of playing elite women's sport?

[Are people outside those categories supposed to just....not play sport?]

Everyone is welcome to play sport. The question being debated is who should be eligible to play in the female competition

So the key is figuring out that grey area, which makes your "it works for everyone except those in the grey area" definition useless.

Glad we agree.

The men's comp could be called mixed and then may the best woman, man or transgender get picked in the team.
It would be unfair if a transgender played as a male in VJBL in U18’s and then a couple of seasons later comes back and plays as a transgender in the women’s. However if the men’s was mixed and she was good enough you go girl! I would cheer her on all the way .

How many times do I have to say that "transgender" is not a noun before you people stop using it as one?

Again KR, most of the examples aren't intersex

You can't just keep specifically excluding trans people from your definition, then claiming your definition applies to the question of whether trans people should be eligible.

Transgender
adjective
noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person's sex assigned at birth:

noting or relating to a person who does not conform to societal gender norms or roles.

noun
a person who is transgender

The dictionary also defines the word "nigger", but you don't see people using it in conversation.

[You can't just keep specifically excluding trans people from your definition, then claiming your definition applies to the question of whether trans people should be eligible.]

The vast, vast majority of trans people wanting to compete against females are males. That's the whole point.

The definition fits perfectly.

I know you're smart enough to understand this. Pretending otherwise only makes you deliberately obtuse and disingenuous.

Males ie- born males and went through puberty as males

The vast, vast majority of trans people wanting to compete against females are males. That's the whole point.

Biological men playing against women in sport is egregious, and the most anti-women thing I've ever heard of. Imagine being a women who fought for equal rights for many years, only for a bunch of men to turn into women, forcing you to fight for for those same rights all over again.

Men are not women, regardless of operations and hormone replacements. Women don't support this either, they are much more susceptible to reputation risk and don't want to appear on the wrong side of 'social issues'. None of the women who lost to Lia Thomas at the olympics were excited they missed out on a gold/silver/bronze medal because someone forced them to compete with a man.

If you think protecting women and their sports is anti-trans rhetoric, then sure... but it'd make you anti-women.

The winning strategy for any NBL club now is to get as many trans men as possible into the squad.

Lia Thomas did not compete at the Olympics.

Imagine being a women who fought for equal rights for many years, only for a bunch of men to turn into women,

Women don't support this either, they are much more susceptible to reputation risk and don't want to appear on the wrong side of 'social issues'.

The winning strategy for any NBL club now is to get as many trans men as possible into the squad.

Off Pudding you are spot on with what every woman I have a conversation about this has said.

We are women who want to compete, we are mothers who love all of our children, straight, bi, gay, trans, non binary. We want to see all of our children do well and be happy
We don't want our girls competing against someone who has gone through puberty as a male but we won’t speak out for many many reasons

100% believe and want anyone who wants to play play..... but not at jeopardy of girls who already have to fight so hard for everything.

Make a mixed league or let the men’s league be mixed.

Should we expand rosters to infinite sizes so nobody misses out?

I thought we were sick of "participation medals" and not wanting anyone to ever lose?

https://australia.basketball/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Transgender-Inclusion-Guidelines-December-2021.pdf

Should we expand rosters to infinite sizes so nobody misses out?

I thought we were sick of "participation medals" and not wanting anyone to ever lose?


So you think it's ok for real women to miss out playing in the division of sport that’s designed for real women just so a minority who want to think they are women can play sport

The guidelines are "fair, inclusive and safe"
You cannot have “safe” by adding a biological male and yes Koberulz is exactly what a transgender female is into a females sporting team when the physical stature gives them more strength, muscle power and a Completely different mind set( men think differently to women, they react differently and move differently ) and keep real women safe, and that’s apart from the legality and insurance issues that’s going to present itself placing men against women if they get seriously injured ( look at the AFL at the moment with class actions happening due to concussions from men colliding heads)
You cannot be inclusive and fair, as including biological men in women’s sports isn’t fair to real women , those guidelines negate each other

The only fair , inclusive and safe way is to introduce a league specifically for transgender people, let transgender men and women play in one competition in mixed teams, and yes their may not be enough to start now, but sacrifices need to be made for lifestyle choices if you they want to eventually become mainstream

Real women should not have to step aside to accomodate men who want to now identify as women, and those transgender women should actually consider just how hard women have had to work to get recognition and equality to the level it’s at, and it still has a very long way to go.

BA and BV and any other state league should be looking at the bigger long term picture, start building roads to get a trans league up and running, guarantee they would be supported 100% by all athletes

So you think it's ok for real women to miss out playing in the division of sport that's designed for real women just so a minority who want to think they are women can play sport

biological male

men think differently to women

The only fair , inclusive and safe way is to introduce a league specifically for transgender people, let transgender men and women play in one competition in mixed teams,

those transgender women should actually consider just how hard women have had to work to get recognition and equality to the level it’s at,

---> "We're talking about one woman. Not "a bunch""

Changing rules sets precedent for others to follow. With only 5 people on a court, immediately changing 20% of that equation can quickly skew advantage to another side.

---> "Imagine being a man, and working really hard to become a great swimmer, and ending up competing against Michael Phelps. What's the difference?"

Or a dolphin? There is a huge difference, in that different categories were created for each class of swimmer, since if women had to compete against men you would rarely, if ever see a female champion in any sport. I like that you bring up this line of logic that "there are a very select few men that excel greatly more than all other men and all women", but I bet you never apply the same thinking to the 'diversity', 'equity' and 'inclusion' metrics that have quotas for females and the like. All the top jobs, positions, wealth are taken by men with particular personality profiles that see them sacrifice more than almost anybody else is prepared to so they can attain wealth/status/jobs, but because they're all men we need to ensure quotas for females. Nobody ever says "but it's only a very select few men, why should the rest of the men be punished and be skipped for promotion to meet a quota?". That would go against the liberal hivemind.

---> "And they chose option three because of "reputation risk"? Are you insane?"

Yes, then no. Absent strength for physical domination (re: the entire reason we are having this conversation), women are more likely to attack (and value) reputation - social media has been a great power equaliser over time due to this. Political beliefs skew slightly leftwards for women, and propagation of the woke mind virus that sees propositions like "men are women" being put forward has significant concentrations of crazy, blue-haired freaks that seek to "cancel" every voice of dissent. Not everyone has the appetite or required assertiveness to fight, especially not when you're in the spotlight. The full explanation goes into far too much depth than you're likely capable, pulling from disciplines like psycholo... science... and we are already bogged down debating whether men are women.

Your assumptions are also faulty that rejecting 'trans' issues like this is a "minority" position. The woke mind virus has infected younger people the most, who are also the crowd most likely to be of competitive sports age, but even if we accept that you hold the minority view (it probably isn't a massive skew among younger demographics), that minority is the loudest and most highly motivated group that seeks to destroy anyone and everyone who says even the most obvious things like "men are not women". JK Rowling is a good example.

But if protecting women's rights in sport and making competitive environments for them makes me an "insane bigot", then sure.

--->"Dafuq are you talking about?"

Yes, like... get more good male players to be 'trans', go win the women's league.

Nice to see we're adding misogyny to the transphobia.

Yes, like... get more good male players to be 'trans', go win the women's league.

---> "Trans women are women."

They live the lifestyle of a woman, and want to be a woman. They are definitely not a woman. If I walked around thinking I was actually a dolphin and wanted to compete against Lia Thomas, you'd fairly think I had some issues. Gender dysphoria is no different. To encourage people with pyschological issues that their delusions are real is sociopathic, as is gaslighting those who disagree with you in accepting said delusions. Worse again, would be to have acceptance of aforementioned delusions disadvantage the lives/careers/achievements of others.

People should live their lives however they please, but it shouldn't negatively affect those around them.


---> biological male = "This, again, is a meaningless phrase."

Lol, biological male is a MEANINGLESS phrase. Yeah, um. Remember when I said science was beyond this person?

Koberulz has no idea what a man or woman is. Go on, give us a definition of a woman then... if it isn't biological. Is it... whatever you feel like?


---> "I really thought we'd moved on from "women are from Venus, men are from Mars" decades ago, and put it into the same bin as The Secret and all the other pseudoscientific claptrap."

Actually men and women have rather significant differences in personality when studied as large groups. It says nothing about any individual man or woman, but as groups there are significant differences in psychological profile and thinking that emerge. But psychology is a science and you reject science in favour of "the definition is whatever I want it to be".


---> re: trans league
I also think it would be silly and it most probably wouldn't have enough players even over time. Why bother creating a trans league when you should just make the mens league "open" to everyone who is good enough. Which will mean almost no women will be selected in the highest tiers. Who remembers a few years ago when the Australian women's soccer team lost 7-0 to an UNDER 15 year old boys Newcastle team? I'm prepared to bet a transitioned "trans female" (I'll use that meaningless biological term "male" here to avoid confusion) is stronger than a 14 year old boy.

My pronouns are:
"This. Is. Why. They. Need. Their. Own. Leagues. Without. Men."

Actually, I wouldn't mind winning a state trophy, perhaps I'll identify as being a kid and try win all the state trophies in a single year across every sports code! Oppressive terminology like biological child and biological age are meaningless phrases! Don't let some online bigots stop you from achieving your dreams, you're never 'too old' if you can just identify as younger!

---> Nice to see we're adding misogyny to the transphobia.

Hear that everyone!? the most rudimentary scientific facts/knowledge are misogynist now! How dare facts I don't like hurt my fee fees!


The person defending women's sport from me wanting men to play in it is a misogynist!


The name calling is out, and this was a resounding and simple decimation of the woke hivemind. If you upgrade your internet by asking it to identify as being 200mbit instead of 50mbit you could have received more pseudo-claptrap responses to spout while you proclaim personal virtue.


---> "that's not how being trans works."

Oh, so there is an entire rubric it follows? It's not just self identification? In some sporting cases it may even have some physical hormone limitations (ignoring the 200-odd other differences between biological men and women (oh sorry, that's meaningless).

Can you tell me how being a woman works? Probably a good place to begin if you want to reference something "ELSE" (to mean: other) is going to 'become' it.


Well, it's been fun. But because epistemological reality won't be enough for you, I'll self-identify as being 'correct' and go to bed.

Oh, so there is an entire rubric it follows? It's not just self identification?

Lot of 1900s vibes in this thread right now.
Bunch of men trying to tell women what to think and how to behave.

koberulz
A few hours ago

Oh, so there is an entire rubric it follows? It's not just self identification?
Yes, and if you did fifteen seconds of research before shooting your mouth off, you would know that.



But you still haven't explained what a "real woman" is,
OffPUDing made great points to which you could bring a decent rebuttal but asked the one question you need to be able to answer .... Come on do tell what IS a real woman /female , or man/male even , what is the “biological difference between the two ?

That there is no hard and fast rule has been my entire point from the beginning.

This was a classic moment and tells you plenty about how many real women (adult human females) feel about competing against males

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cyxiUdA_QYI&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

I can't help but notice the trans woman is not on the podium.

And that none of the three women actually offered any opinion.

---> "Yes, and if you did fifteen seconds of research before shooting your mouth off, you would know that."

I was being sarcastic. Any rubric that allows men to compete in sport codes designated for women is wrong. There is a case to be made that if all women (real ones) in a league agreed to it then it may be okay.


Big D: ---> "Lot of 1900s vibes in this thread right now.
Bunch of men trying to tell women what to think and how to behave."

Than you for your compelling contribution to the debate. Which women would that be? The 'old' women or the 'new' women (where a 5pm shadow is allowed)? I'm certainly not telling you what to think, I'm just explaining biological / factual reality which is telling you what you SHOULD think.

Or maybe having studied biology 10 years ago at uni just before this silly stuff entered mainstream discussions is unfairly skewing me towards the wrong conclusions and sensibilities?

Any rubric that allows men to compete in sport codes designated for women is wrong.

Ok here is the section of the report down by World Rugby in relation to trans people playing, and the reasoning behind this being rejected -

Biological Advantages from Testosterone

Resultant Performance Differences

Significant increases in total body mass
Significant increases in lean/muscle mass and muscle density
Reduction in body fat mass, improving strength and power-to-weight ratio
Increased height, changed dimensions of important levers, greater bone density
Increased haemoglobin levels
Increased heart and lung size
Significantly greater strength (between 50% and 60% percent by adulthood, with relatively greater upper body strength)
Significant speed advantages (between 10% and 15% over various durations)
Greater capacity to produce force/power (advantages of between 30% and 40% in explosive movement capabilities)
Strength-to-weight and power-to­ weight advantages (even after adjusting for mass, height and similar level of performance (elite, untrained etc), males have a 30-40% strength advantage)


Risk of Injury is too great
It has been proposed that the suppression of testosterone for a period of 12 months is sufficient to remove the biological differences that create performance differences summarised above.

Research contradicts this, consistently showing that total mass, muscle mass and/or strength are reduced by at most 5% to 10% when testosterone is suppressed to levels in the female range, for a period of 12 months. With the additional factor of training, either before or during the period of testosterone suppression, it is expected that baseline/pre levels for these variables will be higher, and that training will attenuate the decline in these variables with testosterone reduction. The consequence is that given the size of the biological differences prior to testosterone suppression, this comparatively small effect of testosterone reduction allows substantial and meaningful differences to remain. This has significant implications for the risk of injury in rugby.

Marena Whittle was the guest on this week's Dribble Podcast, discussing this issue:
Link

Look if it was an even playing field, I don't have a problem with it, but clearly, it isn't based on science.

No sport is ever a level playing field. It wouldn't work.

The suggestion that men, en-masse will subject themselves to the criteria required let alone the abuse just to score a few points against women at NBL 1 level is frankly ludicrous.

Kudos KR for trying to enlighten.

You would hope so.

So much shouting in here about "biological males" born male went through puberty as males. None of those shouters putting the caveat on it that if the trans woman didn't go through puberty as a male, she should be allowed to compete. Just lots of shouting.

I'm a woman. I'm all for trans women being allowed to participate in women's sport. Put limitations on it if you want - be that in terms of hormone levels, age at transition, not having competed as a professional male, whatever. But don't just slap a blanket ban on the participation of people who comprise an absolutely tiny minority of the population. There are way more trans women just trying to participate (and some of them are terrible at the sports they're trying to play, FYI) than there are trying to play at an elite level. The impact it has on their wellbeing to be accepted in a social sporting team is enormous. That's worth way more to me than avoiding the 0.001% chance I ever miss out on my spot in a team because a trans woman is better than me.

The plot thickens .. Andrew Bogut got a rundown of the meeting! sounds like social engineering at its finest going on in Basketball Victoria.

Ok - I'll enter the lions den.....

Basketball Australia and Basketball Victoria are on the back foot totally with this. It doesn't matter if I agree / disagree......the lack of leadership from the governing body of our game in Australia is disturbing and Bogut's tweets about the meeting basically being a farce are just the tip of the iceberg I believe.

BA won't say shit on it as they are basically acting under FIBAs policies.

BTW the BA press release was basically dont say mean things to other people. They did not put forward anything of worth.

Look a lot of people hate on Bogut....I actually really like what he says but the lack of consultation / information in this circumstance is disgraceful.

This will open up a can of worms and set a dangerous precedent if this goes through.

Nothing against trans people but it is an unfair advantage.

Sport is never a level playing field, but you know what are some things you do to make it fair and reasonable.

One is age limits until certain ages.

Guess the other?

Nobody is talking about opening the competition up to men.

Define a man?

Adult human who identifies as a man.

So if someone who is an adult who identifies as a man but was born a female, what would be the limitations on them playing in the men's division?

And how do we determine age?

So if someone who is an adult who identifies as a man but was born a female, what would be the limitations on them playing in the men's division?

And how do we determine age?

So a trans woman to man would just have to be good enough to make it? What would their physiological limitations be?

If cis women and cis men are both allowed to play in a given league, why would there be a restriction on trans men or women? You're not making any sense.

I'm not saying the aren’t allowed.

If a women has transitioned to a man, and wanted to play say, NBL1 South in the men’s side, what would be some of the limitations physically for her to make a team?

[Adult human who identifies as a man.]

What if I identify as 13 years old- Should I should be able to play under 14s?

As far as I'm aware nothing is stopping anyone of any gender from playing NBL1 for a men's team. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Do you understand physiology? I'm asking what would be some of the gaps a woman transitioning to a man would have physiologically to compete.
Or do you think there are none and it’s a pure coincidence that there aren’t cases and equal amount of controversies etc of woman to men playing than men to women?

[cis women and cis men]

Oh dear.

"cis".

These three letters might be the most efficient method of communicating that your mind is captured by ridiculous ideology

I'm asking what would be some of the gaps a woman transitioning to a man would have physiologically to compete.

These three letters might be the most efficient method of communicating that your mind is captured by ridiculous ideology

Stay with me KR.

So are you avoiding the question about physiology?

What would it depend on with the woman?

So are you avoiding the question about physiology?

What would it depend on with the woman?

It's pretty relevant if physiological markers are part of the criteria for trans athletes and eligibility.

Actually, physiological markers are what’s used to determine legal levels for performance enhancing substances.

Can you see relevance here?

This conversation reminds me of the scene in "What is a Woman" when Walsh asks Marci Bowers about people who desire to be disabled, to lose an arm. She says they have a mental disorder and it's "kooky". She doesn't understand the relevance to trans people.

Can you see relevance here?

She also said, if I remember correctly, she's not trans but trans is part of her history. Or something

People captured by this ideology are truly in a trance. It's so odd.

Gender ideology is so warped and anti- science

I genuinely don't understand it. I'm still in my 30s too.

The world changes fast- often in good directions but this isn't a good one

The fair way to do it would be no "trans men" ("real" female to male) who has taken performance enhancing drugs/steroids as a part of their transition should be allowed to compete in the women's divisions.

Male leagues are fine being open for anyone who is good enough, given that trans people who begin as female don't really gain any advantage by being there. In most sports, you might not even have a single female in the top 1000 players globally.

The fair way to do it would be no "trans men" ("real" female to male) who has taken performance enhancing drugs/steroids as a part of their transition should be allowed to compete in the women's divisions.

I genuinely don't understand it.

Oh Billy Bob, koberulz will never accept anything that begins with "physiological" or "biological" or that ends in "science".

What they DO accept though, is that you can self identify as whatever you want, and that makes you that thing.

They literally said that a "Man" (noun) is: "a person that [self] identifies as a man";

Ergo:

"Woman" (noun) is: "a person that [self] identifies as a woman";

Thus:

"House Cat" (noun): "Anyone who wants to say "meowwww" and crawl around the house";

But apprently you can't just self-identify as being 10 years old because time/calendars/science are a thing...

This highlights the whole problem with "self-identification" as the requirement to "be" something. When you tell someone it's hogwash, they will castigate you for "denying someone their humanity".

There is also no proof or consistency to the way self-identification applies. It always applies to things that further their insane and radical anti-west, anti-science, anti-civilization agenda and never applies to things that don't further those aims. They also don't care that their ideology isn't consistent, because their objective is to push post-modernism/cultural marxism, and that begins by destroying concepts of reality for everything around them - beginning with language.


This disempowers everyone involved and gives global elites (who control the hivemind where their bad ideas originate) even more power. That's an abridged explanation, since the full scope goes well beyond this discussion. But understanding the motivation of radicals may be interesting. Most involved are "useful idiots" (as Stalin would say) and unaware of the overall objectives of the hivemind. Remember people, never outsource your thinking!


Koberulz and others -- your views are so anti-women that if we apply your "trans inclusion" beliefs in sport to prisons... well we would see convicted male rapists (against women) who later self identify as the "woman queen they always knew they were" be allowed to transfer to a female prisons if they wished.

I mean what's the harm!? They're a woman now! Trans women are women! They have reduced testosterone levels bla bla bla... Scotland made this mistake only a few weeks back. Wonder how that's going?

So here is another definition for you:

Indoctrinated (verb, past participle): "anyone who thinks men are women";

--> "AMAB individuals are allowed to take testosterone supplements under certain circumstances, why should AFAB individuals be denied that same opportunity?"

Supplements or steroids? There is a massive difference between the active pathways and efficacy of both. If you want to walk down the road and buy a "test booster" and eat fenugreek seeds, then go for gold. If you want to pin 150 to 200mg+ of actual testosterone per week (which is considered a very low / standard TRT dose, and approximately 3-4 times a male's natural T levels depending on the esters the testosterone is bound to), then maybe not.

Test doesn't just improve strength, muscle, focus etc, but red blood cell counts & stamina too. A woman who took testosterone and then competed against women would be ridiculously unfair. If they took them and competed against men, it would close some of the gap.

It would be up to the sport to decide, since some sports may not care about juicing -- but I can't think of any from the top of my head. If the women can juice, the men would reasonably expect to be allowed to also.

Thus:

"House Cat" (noun): "Anyone who wants to say "meowwww" and crawl around the house";

This highlights the whole problem with "self-identification" as the requirement to "be" something.

This disempowers everyone involved and gives global elites (who control the hivemind where their bad ideas originate)

Supplements or steroids? There is a massive difference between the active pathways and efficacy of both. If you want to walk down the road and buy a "test booster" and eat fenugreek seeds, then go for gold. If you want to pin 150 to 200mg+ of actual testosterone per week (which is considered a very low / standard TRT dose, and approximately 3-4 times a male's natural T levels depending on the esters the testosterone is bound to), then maybe not.

Sorry I had to go to sleep (physiological)

Why would they need to take testosterone if needed KR, what does testosterone do? (To any human that takes it)?

So if women are allowed to play nbl1 men's south, why aren’t there any? Why do they play in the women’s division?

Can you give me examples of women playing in elite men’s leagues?

LOL what women are playing in men's leagues? I know they touted the idea with Lauren Jackson and the South Dragons but reality struck at some point. So one of the greatest female players in history was never picked up by the South Dragons despite all the talk, there being no rule to prevent it, and all the positive publicity it would have brought. Gee... I wonder why. Could it be that men hold an unfair physical advantage over women in sports? Nah of course not, according to Kobe, because everyone is whatever they believe they are and I am a unicorn.

His retort will be something like "who is talking about men?" as though the biology of the creatures who believe themselves to be women were irrelevant.

Also "cis women" is an insulting term to women. There are women and then there are men. There are no "cis women" and there are no "trans women". Women have a unique experience of the world and their bodies that you cant just opt into. Now I dont care what someone wants to believe about themselves or how they wantto dress or what surgeries they want to have but the fact remains their world view is not reality, and we should only placate it in so much and to an extent that it doesnt disrupt everyone else. Having biological men, whether or not they've been neutered or dosed down in testosterone, effects other people. Schizophrenics dont get to decide reality for everyone else so I am not sure why those with gender dysphoria do.

[No. Freakin'. Way.
Wow, we could not tell at all.]

I understand the theory.

What I don't understand is why people accept and promote this. How we got to a point where significant numbers of people are buying into the nonsense.

I'm just after a conversation with kr around my questions without mud slinging so we can take the emotion out of it and look at it from multiple sides.

Side note. Every player I’ve spoken with possibly effected is not comfortable with lack of clarity and policy by bv. This is the real issue. 100% absolute cock up by them

And the player in question no doubt would be going through a lot. This could have been worked away and put some serious effort into this for a long time and they are the one probably feeling the worst out of all of this.
Instead bv left it to the last minute or just didn't foresee what would eventuate and have handled this horribly.

Yep BV are not on top of this. Feel sorry for everyone involved.

[I'm just after a conversation with kr around my questions without mud slinging so we can take the emotion out of it and look at it from multiple sides.]

I can tell you're fairly new to this forum...

Look, sarcasm isn't a font but it should be

Koberulez is a clown.

Looking at what it states in the Rugby report about the biologic advantage of a man over a women even when taking testosterone suppressants.

Biological Advantages from Testosterone

Resultant Performance Differences

Significant increases in total body mass
Significant increases in lean/muscle mass and muscle density
Reduction in body fat mass, improving strength and power-to-weight ratio
Increased height, changed dimensions of important levers, greater bone density
Increased haemoglobin levels
Increased heart and lung size
Significantly greater strength (between 50% and 60% percent by adulthood, with relatively greater upper body strength)
Significant speed advantages (between 10% and 15% over various durations)
Greater capacity to produce force/power (advantages of between 30% and 40% in explosive movement capabilities)
Strength-to-weight and power-to­ weight advantages (even after adjusting for mass, height and similar level of performance (elite, untrained etc), males have a 30-40% strength advantage)


Risk of Injury is too great
It has been proposed that the suppression of testosterone for a period of 12 months is sufficient to remove the biological differences that create performance differences summarised above.

Research contradicts this, consistently showing that total mass, muscle mass and/or strength are reduced by at most 5% to 10% when testosterone is suppressed to levels in the female range, for a period of 12 months. With the additional factor of training, either before or during the period of testosterone suppression, it is expected that baseline/pre levels for these variables will be higher, and that training will attenuate the decline in these variables with testosterone reduction. The consequence is that given the size of the biological differences prior to testosterone suppression, this comparatively small effect of testosterone reduction allows substantial and meaningful differences to remain. This has significant implications for the risk of injury in rugby.

koberulz
A few hours ago

Thus:

"House Cat" (noun): "Anyone who wants to say "meowwww" and crawl around the house";
Nope.

Wrong again koberulz

"There is a new wave of people who are choosing to not identify as a part of the human race, in favour of aligning themselves with animals. Now, a Melbourne school is navigating this new territory.

A Melbourne private school is allegedly supporting one of their Year 8 students as they begin their journey of identifying as a 'cat'."

You guys bring in these strawman arguments as if there's an unstoppable tidal wave of people when in reality it is the tiniest percentage of individuals.

You all love a good slippery slope argument. Paul Murray and co would be super proud that you've all learned to parrot their talking points.

Damn, so disappointed. When I saw all the post #s on this divisive topic I just assumed you all must have argued your points decisively and come to a consensus.

[You guys bring in these strawman arguments as if there's an unstoppable tidal wave of people when in reality it is the tiniest percentage of individuals.]

Perhaps transgender people in sport is a tiny minority but the wider issue of gender ideology and gender clinics is a tinder box issue.

The RCH in Melbourne has 8 referrals to their gender clinic in 2011. By 2021 the number was 831.

In light of changing recommendations in other countries (Sweden, Finland, Norway, England) and in light of the issues identified around the Tavistock clinic in London.... What medications are these kids on? What safeguards and processes are in place? etc etc.

The transgender in sport issue is small but the wider issue around changing society norms on gender is a massive issue

And there's also the unsuitable frameworks placed around these issues by governments, for example the Andrews government in Melbourne

But yes, this is going off the topic of sport specifically.

LV agree, that is even more of a reason not to push this agenda till the implications are fully understood!

Koberulz's playbook is quite simple.

1. Tell you you're wrong. (You're just uneducated and don't understand gender)

[We ask for simple definitions to constrain conversation and their argument]

2. Tell you how gender identification works ("a woman is someone who identifies as a woman!")

[We provide extensions of the same logic that show how insane that if you apply it to animals etc, combined with far more in depth knowledge than they're capable on test replacement etc]

3. Returns to telling us that we just DON'T understand how gender works! You haven't bothered to do ANY research.

Lol.

Is there an anonymous vote for players? How do we know that it is 100% secure?

Is it fair they (current NBL1 players) decide the precedent for basketball in this country?

Bogut posted that there are 3 teams players already playing in BIG V Women's. Where did this rumour stem from?

The debate for me comes down the science and maths and then how that extends to the moral side of the argument. The science (maths) is undeniable when it comes to athletic advantage for males over females, the bell curve for males sits above that of females. There is of course a fair degree of overlap and indeed the elite end of the female curve would sit decidedly above the mean of the male curve. If a male was to transition and take up a commensurate position on the female bell curve as to where they sat on the male curve then (apart from the true transphobes) I don't think many would have any issue. The science, however, does not indicate that is the case. For a start, no amount of hormone therapy is going to change the skeletal advantage, whether that be length or density of bones and most certainly not the Q angle related to the wider hips of females. There is yet to be a longitudinal study that has found that the reduction in muscle mass achieved through hormone therapy is equal to the difference in the baselines. This is even for studies that have looked at 8 years of HT.

The controversy surrounding Lia Thomas and the decision from FINA brought this under the microscope last year and the issue of position on the bell curves is what FINA reacted to. Prior to transition Lia’s converted time for 100 free (at age 18) would just get in the top 25 for 15-year-olds in Australia and would have been even more off the pace in the USA (not to mention 16-, 17- and 18-year-olds). Post transition she was in the top 8 for all college aged athletes. If any athlete made that sort of move along the bell curve there would be no end of medical investigation conducted to figure out how such an unprecedented improvement had been made.

Given that there is no proof whatsoever that someone (with or without HT) can make a commensurate transition, the question then becomes a moral one. For me this does come down to the nature of the competition and its purpose. At the elite (professional) level we are talking about either someone’s livelihood (or in the case of semi pro, a portion of their livelihood) and I am not OK with that. If it meant that Lia Thomas gained a berth at the Olympics instead of another athlete then no way am I in favour of that. If, however, we are talking community level sport (amateur), and that meant those ranked in the 500’s were now going to be 1 spot lower then I doubt anybody would care. We have grading structures in community sport which allow for skill and size differences within sex differentiated competitions so I see no issue there. I dare say we all know or have met males of "fighting age" that if they were to step onto an AFLW or NRLW field, even without any transition, that we would hold grave fears for their safety. We are looking at say a D grade men’s athlete going to A or maybe even B women’s and frankly who cares.

The problem I have with KR is the contention that as long as the transitioned athlete is still on the curve then all is OK. Even then I am not sure that KR does not believe that even if the athlete was off the end of the bell curve that would not be a problem. Given the figures quoted by KR and the sheer number of swimmers that would be on the male bell curve between Lia and Caeleb Dressel and David Popovici, it is not at all beyond the realms of possibility that a more capable swimmer could transition and make a complete mockery of female world records and things like number of medals won at a single Olympics. FINA already allowed the plastic super suit era to do that (to both male and female records), so won’t be letting that happen again. Before KR or anyone else tries to argue that David Popovici would not want to transition, remember we are saying that this is not a decision being taken by a transgender athlete on the basis of gaining an advantage, it is one necessary for their wellbeing.

KR does like to bring up the number of female athletes who are happy to back the application but ignores the fact that there are trans women who have also come out in support of at least some degree of limitations being placed upon trans women. There is also the spectre of the vile abuse that gets directed at anyone who dares raise the head above the parapet on the issue so we will absolutely never know the true level of opposition anyway as far too many are hounded into silence via the very abuse they are accused of.

Well said Dog 55

Great post Dog 55.

KR won't accept any of it, but it's great for independent observers.

I see we've moved from an understandable "I have concerns about this happening in sport" to "all trans people are bad".

LOL what women are playing in men's leagues?

"There is a new wave of people who are choosing to not identify as a part of the human race, in favour of aligning themselves with animals. Now, a Melbourne school is navigating this new territory.

A Melbourne private school is allegedly supporting one of their Year 8 students as they begin their journey of identifying as a 'cat'."

[You guys bring in these strawman arguments as if there's an unstoppable tidal wave of people when in reality it is the tiniest percentage of individuals.]

Perhaps transgender people in sport is a tiny minority but the wider issue of gender ideology and gender clinics is a tinder box issue.

The RCH in Melbourne has 8 referrals to their gender clinic in 2011. By 2021 the number was 831.

LV agree, that is even more of a reason not to push this agenda till the implications are fully understood!

If a male was to transition and take up a commensurate position on the female bell curve as to where they sat on the male curve then (apart from the true transphobes) I don't think many would have any issue. The science, however, does not indicate that is the case.

And as for this, KR:

---> I'm sorry, but the notion that groups being horrendously discriminated against, bullied, murdered, pushed to suicide, and otherwise wiped out of existence are somehow being supported by the "global elites" (which I assume means Jews, because it generally does) is absolutely hilarious to me.


While I agree that bullying and harm is deplorable in all circumstances... the rest of your hyperbole need to be returned to the woke hivemind with a logic error.

Who knows if most of the "global elites" are Jews? It isn't relevant. These elites certainly don't care about trans issues, but they DO care about using the issue as a trojan horse to overcome the annoying basic civil liberties (like free speech) and our existing culture by promoting ideas like "we are all exactly the same" and that "reality is malleable" and that words have no meaning. When you destroy language you destroy the culture. This should have been pretty easy to understand, but you're only capable of the strawman you claim to lament.

And the evidence does not exist in any meaningful study that trans people are being pushed to suicide or "wiped from existence".

The evidence suggests that economic status does not affect trans suicidality. The evidence suggests that despite the MASSIVE boosts to trans acceptance by the public in the last 10-15 years and acceptance within families, suicide & suicide ideation rates have remained exactly the same.

Ergo: trans people are not killing themselves because other people don't accept them. It's much more likely because they do not accept themselves. People with schizophrenic spectrum disorders attempt suicide at 20x the rate of baseline. Mix this with a cocktail of depression and it's pretty horrible.

The methodologies of most research out there on this topic is very poor for a variety of reasons (sending some low quality ones to support your view will be a waste of time), but the most high quality, long-term study (30 years) done on this topic was on trans people who had undergone sex-reassignment in Sweden (extremely friendly to trans people), and they found suicidality rose to 20x population baseline.

You can google "long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: corhort study in Sweden".

But none of us have ever done research or read a study. Not that you need a degree or extensive research to know that men are not women and that they do not belong in women's sports.

You cannot just look at differences in outcomes and immediately jump to conclusions like "bullying", just because you want to absolve certain groups of all blame and agency.

How did those three go when drafted? What were the physical factors that limited their success and staying in those leagues?

How many of them were genuine selections and not along the Carl Lewis Chicago Bulls draft pick?

Kr notice you're happy to answer other peoples but won’t when it comes to mine around physiology?

And the evidence does not exist in any meaningful study that trans people are being pushed to suicide

or "wiped from existence".

These elites certainly don't care about trans issues, but they DO care about using the issue as a trojan horse to overcome the annoying basic civil liberties (like free speech)

The evidence suggests that economic status does not affect trans suicidality. The evidence suggests that despite the MASSIVE boosts to trans acceptance by the public in the last 10-15 years and acceptance within families, suicide & suicide ideation rates have remained exactly the same

Still waiting

The difference between Michael Jordan competing against men (and using his outlier genetic advantages) and Michael Jordan competing against women (and using his outlier genetic advantages) is the latter scenario he's A. got a much bigger advantage but B. He's a part of a category of people who have significant advantages partly by virtue of being part of that category.

Deontay Wilder has genetic advantages over virtually anyone in heavyweight boxing. That doesn't mean he should be allowed to fight against middleweights.

And the evidence does not exist in any meaningful study that trans people are being pushed to suicide

or "wiped from existence".

These elites certainly don't care about trans issues, but they DO care about using the issue as a trojan horse to overcome the annoying basic civil liberties (like free speech)

The evidence suggests that economic status does not affect trans suicidality. The evidence suggests that despite the MASSIVE boosts to trans acceptance by the public in the last 10-15 years and acceptance within families, suicide & suicide ideation rates have remained exactly the same

The difference between Michael Jordan competing against men (and using his outlier genetic advantages) and Michael Jordan competing against women (and using his outlier genetic advantages) is the latter scenario he's A. got a much bigger advantage but B. He's a part of a category of people who have significant advantages partly by virtue of being part of that category.

Deontay Wilder has genetic advantages over virtually anyone in heavyweight boxing. That doesn't mean he should be allowed to fight against middleweights.

Kr notice you're happy to answer other peoples but won't when it comes to mine around physiology?

KR, most gender dysphoric kids have a range of mental health issues and other conditions that are associated with mental health concerns.

There isn't evidence separating out their gender dysphoria and illustrating they're depressed because of their gender dysphoria.

There's also no evidence proving that transition will improve those mental health issues that already existed potentially due to other reasons.

I would wager that similar issues exist in the data around transgender adults.

Further, many of these "studies" around these issues are produced by people with incentives.

The devil is often in the detail.

I would recommend Quillette and Realitys Last Stand (Colin Wright) as helpful websites which take an evidence based, science based, reality based approach on these issues.

Stupid for asking serious questions about physiology and how it affects performance in sport? How so?

How have I been transphobic?

You asked what the rules would be around women playing in men's leagues. I pointed out that women can already play in men's leagues.

That is all that's relevant to the discussion of women participating in men's leagues.

[And nobody is talking about letting men, as men, compete in women's leagues]

Absolutely people are talking about males (whilst retaining some irreversible physiological advantages from puberty) competing in women's leagues

This is the whole issue

Quit obfuscating already

According to who?

How is that transphobic?

So will just ignore all of the other stuff because you don't understand it?

You would have a great career in politics if you haven't thought about it. You would be great on the podium going around in circles without answering the questions you don’t want.

The pay and conditions can great, and very good super benefits.

Lol, hold up KR... questions about physiology are transphobic?

Anyway, trans people aren't as 'oppressed' as you think they are, and as LV and I have stated, they tend to have a myriad of mental health concerns that are highly connected to suicidality.

We aren't transphobes or "scared" of trans people. I probably have more trans friends than you do. One of them is a large Maori male who would destroy me in a UFC fight. Let them rip against women, huh?

We are just defending womens' sports. Your solution from your "men are weaker than other men" logic is that we just eliminate all womens sports altogether, because it's "too bad" if you're born weaker than others because of gender / genetics etc. Breaking down sport by age and gender was a remedy to allow anyone and everyone to compete based on their capability and fairness. If a child or female is excellent at something, they're more than welcome to go up a tier. Not the other way around.

One more thing about physiology. Gender isn't some mystical "assigned at birth" thing. It is not assigned by anyone but genetically long before birth in the womb. Sex is binary and it cannot be "reassigned".

We aren't anti-trans, we are just defending women's sports. I accept completely that trans women exist and would never give one a hard time. I (and other sane/educated people) just reject that they are women. There is a difference.

The woke hivemind has indoctrinated you so severely that you aren't capable of deducing motivations or the virtue of others. Anyone who disagrees with you is the latest "phobe/ist/ism".

Oh, and you never did reply about whether you also think that trans men should be put into women's prisons, even if they were convicted of sex crimes against women?

They're women right?

KR, most gender dysphoric kids have a range of mental health issues and other conditions that are associated with mental health concerns.

There isn't evidence separating out their gender dysphoria and illustrating they're depressed because of their gender dysphoria.

Anyway, trans people aren't as 'oppressed' as you think they are

We aren't transphobes or "scared" of trans people.

Breaking down sport by age and gender was a remedy to allow anyone and everyone to compete based on their capability and fairness. If a child or female is excellent at something, they're more than welcome to go up a tier. Not the other way around.

Oh, and you never did reply about whether you also think that trans men should be put into women's prisons,

Kr
'Age-segregating them is also flawed, frankly. At under-14s in particular you have kids who haven't started puberty yet competing against kids who have almost finished it. You have players who have never touched a basketball before thrown in with players who have 5-6 years of experience at an elite level.'

How does going through puberty earlier play an advantage in sport?

So instead of junior ages would you propose separating into leagues where the level of physical development is one of/the criteria?

He's gunna go none from two there.

https://australia.basketball/basketball-australia-statement-10/?fbclid=PAAaasRMoiWi4SKj-2n4QMAcMVLxCkUDI_GdE6wzVFLepm6Z34gc05eYVL6J4

[Of course they're not depressed because of their dysphoria, they're depressed because of people like you]

Evidence?

[If they could just transition and get on with their lives, they'd be much happier]

Evidence?

And what about those who detransition?

Like the 36% of girls who wanted to transition to boys, and started taking hormones but then desisted, in this study

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/107/9/e3937/6572526?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

All I see is a lot of evidence that being supported in transition from a young age is important.

Couple of honest questions for you up there KR referring to your comments?

"Here are my black and white criteria."
"It's not black and white."
"Okay, if my black and white criteria are wrong, what are your black and white criteria."

Not engaging, dude.

Bit of a misquote there?

Not engaging because not interested in hearing a different viewpoint?

As mentioned, just trying to have discussions around all aspects of it

It makes it harder for a lot of us to take you seriously when you'll jump in people one minute then will not engage when others bring up points relative to the points you yourself are making.

Sorry KR but they are NOT getting an advantage because of their birth, they are getting it as a result of medical intervention and that is simply not allowed in sport otherwise it would be open season on not only PED's but I could decide my wellbeing is best suited by webbing my hands and feet which would certainly see me carve a few seconds of my times.