Western Sydney razorbacks

It would help if you posted the URL

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/basketball/nbl-finals-2022-sydney-kings-villain-receives-death-threats-from-jackjumpers-fans/news-story/7b74fc4a7f7bdc9b7b2fca1b12080b25


The Sydney Kings will have a cross-town rival in the near future, according to NBL boss Larry Kestelman.

The Harbour City has been the Kings' domain since the West Sydney Razorbacks turned Sydney Sprit folded in 2009.

According to Kestelman, though, the league will ramp up plans in the coming years to reintroduce a second Sydney team.

It’s understood the league has also reached out to potential officials to front another NBL franchise in Australia’s biggest city, although there is an agreement in place that states there can’t be second Sydney team until 2024.

"There will definitely be another team in Sydney at some stage," Kestelman told The Basketball Show.

“We will start looking at that in the next year or two.”

Could the West Sydney Razorbacks return to the NBL? Picture: Craig Wilson
Could the West Sydney Razorbacks return to the NBL? Picture: Craig Wilson
Kestelman confirmed the league is also keen to introduce a third Melbourne team, but he wants to give the South East Melbourne a little longer to establish themselves.

He reaffirmed Canberra as the most logical expansion destination for the NBL.

“Canberra feels a bit like Tasmania 2.0,” he said.

“I had a look at their venue, and I see no reason why Canberra shouldn’t have a team, but we just need to work through the processes and make sure both the government and the fans get behind it.

“That is how Tasmania happened. If the fans want it badly enough, there will be a team in Canberra.

“We’ve brought a few teams back who have gone missing on us in the past.

“We’re still one of the lowest number of teams in professional sport, in terms of basketball competitions around the world.

“So, without a doubt there is room for at least a few more local teams.

“We’ve had conversations from the Gold Coast, Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and certainly Canberra is an interesting one for us to have a look at.”

Cheers champ

A third Melbourne team would be overkill.

I agree. Both United and Phoenix crowds have been very poor this season. Work on increasing them first

Another Melbourne team would be stupid...
The only other vic team you could have would be geelong, no stadium though.

Geelong, vic
Western Sydney, Newcastle nsw
Canberra, act
Townsville, GC, SC qld
Darwin, nt
Wellington, Canterbury nz

Geelong?

Population has exploded, its close to 350,000

geelong, no stadium though.

The current one is only 2,000 seats.
Bendigo 4,000 but 1/3 of the population.

Not sure how many times Sydney has to try and fail with a second team before they accept it just doesn't work

No one with half a brain is going back to Newcastle

Canberra seems to be the most logical choice moving forward. The similarities to Tasmania and lack of other professional teams make it a perfect fit. If the revamp of the stadium that was rumoured takes place I'd be surprised if we didn't see a Canberra team pop up. But would they be the Cannons?

The similarities to Tasmania and lack of other professional teams make it a perfect fit.

Second Sydney team? That's an astonishingly terrible suggestion. And third Melbourne?!?

In Sydney, the Razorbacks barely worked, and they were introduced at a time when the Kings were far more successful than they are now (in terms of business, support, exposure etc), and there was a distinct identity difference and proper distance difference then (Kings in the city as the flashy brand, Razorbacks properly in Western Sydney at Liverpool as the blue collar brand).

What's the negativity with Newcastle? Genuine question, I actually don't know why Newcastle is always so quickly dismissed. Certainly the Pirates were a disaster, but that was 15 years ago + the NBL as a whole was mostly a basket case at that time. The venue there certainly needs an upgrade, but it's a good size. And the city has developed a lot in many ways since that last attempt.

Pretty sure they had 900 people to an NBL game way back. Greg Evans in control. Horrid.

Newcastle would do just fine but the obvious 2 would be Canberra and Wellington this decade.
Ais arena is to be refurbished next year.
Tsb arena needs a little sprucing.

Beyond that quite a few of the other locations should have new(planned) or refurbished arenas.
We know both brisbane and Sunshine Coast will have new stadiums because of the Olympics.
Sem at sbc should have an arena after the redevelopment is finished in 2026.
Newcastle and Townsville entertainment centres, Gold Coast convention centre and Christchurch arena would need to be upgraded to nbl standard.

Western Sydney, Geelong and Darwin are the only 3 possible future locations that would need brand new arenas.

Perth, Adelaide, cairns, illawarra, Melbourne, Sydney, tasmania, Auckland dont really need upgrading.

Problem is where the Kings are based. A "Western Sydney" team made more sense when the Kings played in the CBD. I think it could work with the change in demographics and growth in Western Sydney *if* they had an arena, and sharing Qudos is probably not realistic or ideal depending how many memberships they feel they can sell year 1. I don't think it's a good idea. Kings crowds are finally recovering to pre-Covid levels and fan engagement is high (winning helps). I don't see it being a success, but hey, I trust LK's judgement more than my own too.

I feel a similar way about a third team in Melbourne. Based on what I'm seeing on broadcasts I'm not convinced the fan support is there... I'd want to see more bums on seats for SEM and United games than I have been.

Please don't list examples of teams that failed under incompetent NBL management and say that shows it wouldn't work now under a professional set-up.

Can I remind you that Tasmania couldn't sustain its NBL teams once upon a time, now they have 16 straight sell-outs and more members than seats.

Pretty sure they had 900 people to an NBL game way back. Greg Evans in control. Horrid.

I'm very intrigued by the Razorbacks returning (please keep their colours as they are so different to any other team. The CBD discussion is definitely a good one and I hope that we can keep the Kings looking strong and arrogant and Razorbacks more workmanlike!

I can't wait to see the Cannons return too, it's been way too long... the discussion about Brumbies and Raiders being there is a good one in terms of sponsors but Canberra weather is shithouse and they have nothing to watch in summer so with a bit of Scott Roth type magic make it happen.

I would love to see Darwin get a team, I'm talking Darwin people wanting a stadium up there and then LK doing his thing and giving us another team to fall in love with.

The league is on the rise (it just needs to start its seasons on time) and with investors wanting to buy in, lets make all these decisions happen

Biggest problem with extra teams in Melbourne & Sydney is corporate dollar,fan's & crowd numbers competing against other main stream sports like AFL & NRL.
Too many professional teams in a small space unlike Canberra etc

On talk of Geelong, its the one situation that a tie in with an AFL club could be very beneficial. The Cats have a stranglehold on support down there and I could see a situation where, with their backing, some additional funding could come for a new stadium.

If the razor backs come back they should play out of a boutique stadium at Blacktown, 5k to 6k. GWS were supposed to play out there but went to Homebush, that's not western Sydney, there support has fallen away badly.

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No meaningful support for further teams in QLD - be it Townsville, Gold Coast or Sunshine Coast. Nothing's happening there for a long long time.

GC/SC would be silly whilst the NBL still waits for Brisbane to solidify its member base and become remotely successful.

Townsville would be nice but seems support of basketball there is a drop in the ocean compared to what it once was.

We are talking 8-12 years though... with the qld teams.

My Spidey sense is tingling...

As I say every time someone says "no, not Newcastle, they failed twice", if a Newcastle team had an owner who could invest sufficient capital into it, it would work for sure. The Pirates are insufficient evidence - they simply had no money. Newcastle gets massive crowds by NBL1 East standards, so there's no problem with fan engagement. The problem is finding an owner with deep pockets - the Knights are owned by a local Leagues club, but they were a spurned bidder for the Falcons back in 1998 and still hold a grudge. And of course the other problem is that there's zero in the way of government support, unlike in the case of the JackJumpers (and potentially a Cannons revival? I don't know enough about the ACT government to comment there). Plus the NEC is thirty years old and desperately in need of attention. Newcastle Basketball are trying to build a new stadium to replace Broadmeadow, but a) it would only hold 2000 and b) they can't find anywhere to build it.

As for the Razorbacks, I often wonder how they would have done long term if the Liverpool Stardome had actually been built for them. Once they moved out of the Whitlam Centre and into the State Sports Centre, it seemed to go pear shaped for them financially.

The Whitlam centre was a disaster all those years ago and I for one want to know what's changed. Everyone will say population but the Kings are well established in all areas of Sydney and again as already pointed out money is spent in bucketloads on AFL and NRL. Tassie is different obviously and at this stage a rip roaring success.

What would need to change is the new stadium to be built, as Dave alluded to. Any new team needs a good stadium, government support and capable owners who invest. Tassie has all three in spades.

Canberra definitely seems like it could be the next option. Western Sydney however, seems like it could work but then there's the issue of new arena vs sharing qudos. It would need to not only compete with the kings, but grab enough memberships to fill some of qudos. A third Melbourne team seems liek too much and it would be 3rd wheeling with what I believe is a complete melbourne rivalry setup.

At the same time, all these expansion teams would inevitably change the finals format. I think 6 team finals would end up being the max. Maybe seed 1,2 a bye and the rest a best of 3. After maybe 5,5 or 3,5 for sf and gf

If a 2nd Sydney team is the go, and I am not convinced that is the case, then either Penrith or Campbelltown is the go. Get it right out of anything remotely resembling inner city. Might have a shot then.

As Angus said a second team made more sense when the Kings were based in the CBD, any talk of a second team anywhere in the near future when the Kings really haven't sustained that decent a regular game crowd for that long (at least pre-pandemic for sure) is madness and will significantly dilute the product.

Biggest city, yes, but HUGELY dominated by football codes and being tempted by good crowds this season (if it was even happening before the winning started, I'm not sure on numbers?) is really jumping the gun...

Make the most of having a successful, popular franchise that is able to pull consistently great regular game crowds and break records when it comes to Finals time, don't get greedy...

No to Gold Coast

I get that Tassie has become a success, but I'm not overly convinced Canberra, Newcastle are big enough to sustain the growth required to be viable going into the future - ie probably a fair bit of corporate support is required that big city teams can usually obtain easier, crowds beyond the 5k mark etc.

If you’re going to skip NZ then you’d look at a second Syd team where maybe the Kings play in the CBD and a West Sydney team out of QBA? Or, Kings are the everyone team and continue and a new side plays at the ICC in the CBD and goes heavily after the corporates?

Phoenix need a another 3-4 years to grow their base, but I have zero issue with putting forward a NW Melbourne/Victoria side. Victoria could sustain it IMO.

I really don’t think more than 12 teams in 2026 for example is a good idea. Get it to 12 slowly, and see how things go before contemplating a broader league.

A north west Melbourne team, laughable.

Greater Geelong is the only area in the whole state of vic that is viable for another team within a span of 50 years.

In a perfect world where SEM actually play in the South East full time, a third Vic team in Geelong would make the most sense. You could push the west angle on Western Melbourne folk which is a fast growing area. I dont think you could ever base a team there full time though.

As for a Western Sydney team, you can make all the arguments against it (and I think they're all solid) but if LK finds an investor who insists on having a team in Sydney (like he did with the phoenix in melbourne) then thats where a team will go regardless.

There was more hunger in Tassie than Canberra. Culturally they're very different places, so I wouldn't pin hopes on Canberra being "Tassie 2.0"

My view is they need to move conservatively and slowly

The Razorbacks/Spirit were short lived franchises that lacked widespread support. I'd be surprised if there was widespread dislike for the Kings amongst existing basketball community in Sydney (like LK argued there was in Melbourne to justify the Tigers re branding). The Kings have become successful in recent years, consistently making playoffs and getting bigger crowds.

Sydney, however, remains a fickle marketplace without the same cultural attachment to sports that we have in Melbourne- and Melbourne is currently struggling with 2 teams. SEM not attracting enough support.

In summary

- Try to consolidate the Kings success and aim for average crowd of 10,000 plus for 2 or 3 seasons, before adding another team (like how United were increasing every year and averaging over 8,000 before SEM joined). If the Kings fail to achieve this, don't add another team there

- Likewise SEM need to be averaging say, 6,000 a game for 2 years (non derby games) and really cementing themselves on the sporting landscape in Melbourne before adding a 3rd Victorian team

- Keep 10 teams for the foreseeable future- don't bother with Newcastle or Gold Coast

I mean there's nothing laughable about it - a north west team could easily split time between John Cain Arena and Geelong. There’s enough population in North and West Melbourne to capture, it doesn’t need to be purely outside Melbourne.

But I don’t think anyone views expansion to be a smart move until Phoenix consolidates - that’d be at least 3-4 years.

Sydney is a fickle market, I think LK would have a better shot at making something of it than the Razorback/Spirit days. Again, we won’t see movement in that area for a couple years anyway and that gives the Kings a good chance to consolidate into a powerhouse, which we would want to happen if they were to introduce a second side.

I don't get why Larry wants a 3rd team in Melbourne. I’ve been to many United/Phoenix games and JCA always has empty seats. I was always against the 2nd Melbourne team because United were just getting good numbers for their home games. Now both teams are struggling, but Phoenix are better off playing at State Basketball Centre than JCA.

NBL needs to think hard before adding second Sydney team or third Melbourne team. Kings are having decent crowds, no point adding another team when there’s no stadium for them. Can’t be shared.

I remember speaking to some Tasmanians while I was attending game 2 there. Tasmanians were desperate for a professional sports team. It was going to happen, they said to me everything was organised before hand. Canberra is not like Tasmania. Different audience over there. Politics change their minds too often, never trust them.

Crazy talk ket.
Split time between John Cain and Geelong...
Are you a die hard giants/titans fan or something?


VIC
Melbourne United - John Cain arena
South East Melbourne Phoenix - Future SBC arena, post 2025
Geelong ?… - Future Geelong arena, TBD

Anymore than that in vic would not work.
No north Melbourne, no Bendigo, no west Melbourne would work.

I know people know I'm stuck in the 1990’s, but seriously nbl if you want 3 Melbourne teams then just resurrect the Tigers, Magic, Giants.

Bring Geelong Cats back with a new stadium. Bit like what Collingwood do with the Netball.

Sydney is a fickle place, there is no where in the cbd to play out off, liberal government sold off entertainment centre for units, another shit deal for the tax payer but the developers are smiling.

The North West/South West Giant Supercats. Make it happen.

Western Sydney out of Qudos for a few years before future WS stadium is fine.
Just like sem uses John Cain until sbc is built. the attendance numbers should double/triple at sem when the arena is built.

No, I'm a 36ers fan - I just think that’s the best spot if you’re looking expansion and have no interest in NZ.

I don’t think they should be looking to expand for 3-4 years anyway to be honest. So we shouldn’t necessarily frame things on "now" especially with the effects of covid making things look a bit worse for wear.

3-4 years gives plenty of time for United and Phoenix to recover from the covid slump and consolidate decent crowds and Kings to become a powerhouse worthy of establishing a second side. They can choose one expansion and another 2-3 years after that.

Re Sydney CBD - I thought the ICC could hold the bball? Or am I wrong? I’m not a Sydneysider, but what’s Moorepark like for the tennis/netball? Possible for bball?

Sydney is so dear now. Can't see the Kings moving back to the CBD when there’s no actually land since it’s all been subdivided for apartments/units. Developers own Sydney now, way too much greed and corruption going on in Australia. Sick of it, good luck to them trying to figure out another team. It won’t work in dear old Sydney.

Western United in the A-League are trying the combination of Western Melbourne and Geelong.

Nbl tigers on the money. Sydney is all about money, kings have been successful because smith is pumping money in.
Just opening the doors at Qudos needs an average crowd of 7/8 thousand to balance, no western Sydney are going to draw that.
The entertainment centre was flogged off after Olympics because Qudos didn't want the competition
I believe the swifts are playing out of the tennis centre, that’s at Homebush as well. Qudos far to pricey
Moore park doesn’t have anything over a few thousand at the old Hordan pavilion, no good for kings.
Blacktown has a strong basketball presence due to large African community. Build a 5/6 seater out there, it’s probably the centre of western Sydney now.
The gws giants started alright out at Blacktown, the move to Homebush killed most of their supporters bar people who come from afl states.

Yeah Blacktown probably a good choice for a 5000-6000 seater.

The ICC should have been the perfect place for a Sydney CBD pro sports venue and they built a theatre... Just idiotic.

Owners will relocate Illawarra to Sydney when Sydney's exclusive deal expires

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ICC can hold basketball in the main theatre - it hosted a few netball matches a few years ago (2018ish?)

LV has it spot on with the need to consolidate the Kings numbers first before doing anything else, but to clarify, Sydney is only a fickle place for basketball supporters, not all sports. NRL especially is incredibly tribal and dominates the city sportingscape, so it's hard to get that next level of sporting passion behind a different sport when NRL has had such a foothold for generations... Plus that stereotypical "FOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!11!!!" mentality is definitely prevalent...

The Razorback fanbase was incredibly passionate and tribal between the two teams fanbases here at the time, especially at the height of the success of the of the Razorbacks, those playoff games were such an amazing atmosphere, it was crazy...

The Spirit were never going to work as it was seen as an obvious grab for another teams fans who had no team to follow, but who also despised the other team and the Pigs fans all felt disrespected on top of that... It was a giant mess, which was a shame as if anyone remembers who was on that team, man, the entire city should have gotten behind them... Mismanaged, completely ballsed up... Wildcats made out of it ok though in the end lol...

It's probably been long enough in Sydney that there's just basketball fans going to games now, and the number probably reflect that... It's been a while since I've been out there, but would occasionally see a Razors singlet in amongst the old classic Kings ones which was nice...

Kings would definitely need another couple of seasons to build up that more passionate fanbase, but then where are you going to grab fans from for another team? There was talk of building a new stadium in The Shire (southern Sydney) a few years ago I think? But definitely nowhere in the CBD anymore... the ICC isn't built for it, it's a proper theatre layout and no go...

It would be nice if the Razorbacks could return because how they ended wasn't their fault.

NBL need to get a team in Canberra then look into Sydney by 2026 at least.

ICC only can fit 2800 max, compared to 12000 the old entertainment centre.

It's 9,000 not 2,800, I believe, but Wookiee is right in that it’s a literal theatre layout which would make it weird having crowd on one half.

Was always struck by the silliness that they did that - I liked going to Kings games post work so easily in the cbd

It ain't.

The ICC is not a viable option. It would basically be the worst venue in the NBL. I mean it's a deluxe venue, but in terms of watching basketball - awful. The entire crowd just on one side? The atmosphere would be terrible.

I have a vague memory of at one point (very) briefly in the 00s, the Ent Cent plan was for a major, major renovation - knocking it out for at least one season - and the idea was floated that while that was being undertaken, the Kings could temporarily move into the main Exhibition Hall next door with temporary 'stadium' seating in there. That old hall was huge, and I have no idea what the size/configuration is of the new Exhibition Centre hall/s, but regardless, no team could be in there permanently because it would wreck the centres flexibility with real exhibitions (the point of the building, obviously) if they have to have this basketball configuration in there once or twice a week.

I could totally see a smaller arena (5-10k - proper 'round' arena and not U shaped) working really well in a Campbelltown or Penrith type location. Sydney now does have this gap between 'theatre' venues of varying sizes, and then the 20k Qudos Arena, and you could stick it out in the 'burbs somewhere. Plenty of events and concerts would keep it busy, and if that was on the cards, then yeah, an NBL team as an anchor tenant would likely work really well - for that team, not necessarily good news for the Kings.

That would be the only circumstance where I think a second Sydney team could 'work' in the visible future. Or basically - if the venue is going to be there, you might as well go for it (and the venue might actually be LK's real play here...)

The absolute dumbest idea? A second team at Qudos. That should really never happen.

Overall, it really just does feel too early. Too soon. Over-enthusiastic. It feels like the kind of mistake the NBL of the past would make.

It's like the Kings have just ticked over to 51% and therefore into 'success' and the NBL is suddenly like "It works! Sydney works! Let's add another one!" and I'd personally think it would be way better to give the Kings every chance of seeing what 75%+ looks like. I'd honestly be giving the team and this current ownership/management group another 5 years of exclusivity in Sydney before even considering a second team. They're doing really, really well and I don't think it's crazy to think that there's another level that the Kings can reach, and I think this group have earned the right to have every chance to see if they can get there.

Remember, when you talk about exclusivity in the market, you're not just talking about the population or geography, but also in key ways like not diluting the media. We've all seen how difficult all of this is, right across the country, and how much you need working in your favour to make a success of an NBL club, especially in Sydney.

The NBL's targets would of course be more around TV viewers than crowd sizes, and I can see that they would (correctly) think that there's more of a chance of finding, say, 20k new viewers in the vast 2m+ of Western Sydney than in the 350k of Newcastle or wherever, but I'm still not anywhere near thinking that it's the right thing to do in the visible future.

I really do think that the Kings have momentum at the moment - why slow that in any way?

No room for an arena near wsw football stadium.

But plenty near the sydney zoo and sports precinct.

Here you go Mr "it ain't" Dunkman: https://www.awaresupertheatre.com.au/About/FAQ

Aware Super Theatre holds 8,000 in fully seated mode and 9,000 capacity with general admission standing floor mode.

That’s a far cry from 2,800, yeah?
===

I’m not sure there is such an issue with two teams playing out of the same stadium, ie like John Cain Arena in Melbourne.

However, it’d be good if there was a 6k basketball arena built out of a proper west sydney city.

8000 in fully seated mode, no room for a basketball court then, it a theatre, you look at a stage, when you remove the seats and try put in basketball court, score table etc you haven't got 8000.

"compared to 12000 the old entertainment centre." No it was 10,500 at the SEC in basketball mode.

Entertainment centre was the best venue in the best place, right next to china and multiple eateries, you could have a very good evening at a reasonable cost. Now it's dead after the game and such a few options before the game, everything is three time the cost. Olympic park is nice area but nothing there.

Very premature to be talking about a second sydney team. Apparently theyre technically allowed to do it until 2024 anyway and I think theyd want to see more consistent crowds before making that call. Canberra seems more viable in the immediate future but I still think we need more talent before we expand further.

Entertainment centre was the best venue in the best place, right next to china and multiple eateries, you could have a very good evening at a reasonable cost.

"A Jo Harten-inspired Giants reclaimed local bragging rights with a 66-56 win over the Swifts on Sunday, surging back into the Super Netball top two while delivering a telling blow to the Swifts' finals chances in the process.

Swifts coach Briony Akle challenged her team to commit to the hardest training week of their lives in the aftermath of Sunday's loss in front of 5110 fans at the International Convention Centre, with her side now needing four wins from their final four games to finish in the top four.“

https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/netball/giants-prove-class-in-derby-against-swifts-and-look-towards-top-spot-20180708-p4zq9g.html

I don't think that was a “sellout" by any stretch either.

2,800 was clearly a wildly incorrect made up figure that you double-downed on.

As another pointed out, the 12,000 SEC wasn’t accurate either (10,517 for basketball) albeit a negligible difference that wasn’t worth pointing out originally in the scheme of things.

I think you can perhaps walk back your certainty, Mr “2800 max” Dunkman.

You don't think it was a sell out, you are as far off as I am. It’s still a theatre, that’s why even the swifts moved to the tennis centre.
You can’t put a basketball court in a theatre ripping out half the seats and expect it’s still a capacity of 8000.
I’m certain the kings want more fans at there games and it’s certainly not western Sydney.

They were the days PW. Even in the Cafino, Turner days.

You've gone from a 2,800 max to potentially 4K with "half the seats ripped out", despite there having been a crowd of at least 5k before.

Take the L man, you blatantly made up a figure, you doubled down it, and you were wildly off.

The reason I picked you up for it was that it was so clearly and comically made up and you made it sound like an absolute fact.

Next time, just say “I think” and don’t be so adamant about it.

Would that be such a bad thing?

Are you trying to say the kings should be playing out there or western Sydney, after all this about a second Sydney team and the ICC was brought up, yes I've got the figures wrong by the looks of it, your 8000 is wrong as well as it’s not a basketball crowd. I actually didn’t make it up, a friend in the supposed know told me when I queried it back a while.

The point I’ve try to make is it’s totally unacceptable for any basketball franchise due to state government being owned be the developers and knocking down the former entertainment centre. It was a fantastic venue.

I dont think its a good move to keep expanding teams without the supporter base or the talent pool in terms of local. It leads to a lot of lower quality teams with scarce Australian talent to go around.

The NBL is a retirement league (Bairston, Brokeoff etc..) a Next Star/future league (lucky to last 1 season) and whats left are a few legitimate stars mixed in with players who wouldnt get NBA or Europe offers. Until salaries in the NBL can change that to bring back the Kay's, Brandts and so on - just adding more teams mean more mediocre play for fans and Tv veiewers.

I would prefer a strong Sydney team, Strong Perth, Strong Brisbane etc.. with good crowds and deep benches. This year there was a lot of rubbish play from a number of clubs just lacking depth of talent in both players and coaches.

Unless they allow 5 imports you will just get more low quality players getting the minutes , poorer shooting percentages, more turnovers etc..

It was awesome to see the Sydney / Illawara last round standard of game and less fun to watch the cats 9 game home stretch.

Prefer quality over quantity.

@Dunkman
"Blacktown has a strong basketball presence due to large African community. Build a 5/6 seater out there, it's probably the centre of western Sydney now."

I live in Blacktown. The above is incorrect. The reason that junior basketball is strong in the area is due to the very large Philipino community. Unless you import the Gileas, they will not show up to an NBL game, let alone embrace a team. The South Sudanese community, whilst a vibrant culture, are about a generation away from embracing sport in terms of paying money to go to an event. Not hard to understand why.

So yeah, nah. My view is that the Kings should consolidate and work on getting that 10K average attendance. They would be kicking the backside of most Sydney-based NRL clubs should they do so.

Larry has been mentioning Canberra first every time the topic of expansion comes up. Let's face it, it WILL be Canberra next.

Let's hope it is the Cannons, the NBL needs their history and 3 championships back.

I agree on needing the supporter and talent base to expand first. The standard of play for much of last season was pretty poor I think. Unless we expand import quotas and encourage teams to fill up on them I cant see the league getting better on court with more teams.

"Unless we expand import quotas and encourage teams to fill up on them I cant see the league getting better on court with more teams."

So 3 imports, a NS, and Asian players counting as locals isn't enough? Unbelievable.

Yeah, I don't want to see more than 3 imports, a NS, and Asians/Kiwis as locals, ever.

I like the globalist nature of the NBL with Euros, Asians etc. joining, but I do feel there is a limit and we still need that solid Aussie connection.

Re point of not affording the likes of Kay, Brandt - Asian leagues are a problem for the NBL now, I think.

I’m not sure Australia will be able to compete with a Japanese league that’s got serious capital in it.

But if we were to, perhaps it’d be a scenario where you have a few more clubs meaning more $ spent on players as a result of an extra $1-2m in cap spent?

Perhaps the additional clubs creates more of a premium on paying for stars (more clubs competing for stars) and a scenario where the upwards pressure on stars and downward pressure on "decent" players means a greater percentage of the cap is allocated to stars.

Ofcourse, the risk there is decent players may move to meh European leagues for better pay instead of taking the pay hit (as a percentage of the cap they take up), effectively decimating depth.

"Let's hope it is the Cannons, the NBL needs their history and 3 championships back."
Canberra will become the new Jackies without the local support I suspect.

Adding commonwealth player to Asian player I'm fine with.

3 imports
1 Next star
1 Asia (eg Sotto, baba)
1 Commonwealth (eg rathan-Mayes, mcintosh)
6-9 Aus/nz locals (contracted+dp)


Boost the cap from 1.63 mil 21/22 to 1.75 in 22/23

NBL should look into letting each team be allowed to have one player from any commonwealth country. But you couldn't have for example 3 imports, 1 Asian and 1 Commonwealth. Has to be 1 Asian or 1 Commonwealth player.

Would be more easy for teams to use the 4th import spot for players like a McIntosh (Canada), Agada (Nigeria) and say Corey Williams (Jamaica) if still playing at prime.

Commonwealth? I hope you guys aren't serious.

"So 3 imports, a NS, and Asian players counting as locals isn't enough? Unbelievable."

Well have a look at the season we had and you tell me. Now add another team or two and the scrubs getting 8-10th man minutes become starters.

"But if we were to, perhaps it'd be a scenario where you have a few more clubs meaning more $ spent on players as a result of an extra $1-2m in cap spent?"

I am not sure how more teams translates to more cap.

"Commonwealth? I hope you guys aren't serious."

Sadly they are. As the Commonwealth games have shown us, it's not exactly a hotbed for basketball talent. They did list a few names that were decent enough but I don't see it happening consistently.

"I am not sure how more teams translates to more cap."

As in, 10 teams x $1.5mil = $15mil on player wages; 12 teams x 1.5mil = $18mil on player wages

More teams vying for relative similar pool of stars may end up requiring greater proportion of the cap spent of stars = upward pressure on wages for those stars, which *might* mean they compete better for signatures like Kay or Brandt.

Particularly if given x number of stars at the moment, if a new club comes in and can't steal other stars, they may focus a significant portion to targeting a Kay or a Brandt. If they are able to steal from someone like Perth or Sydney or Melbourne or SEM etc, then those clubs might refocus to target the likes of Kay or Brandt themselves.

Obviously, that can only occur if their price tags are within reach of NBL clubs - if they aren’t ie. if they’re paid $1mil per year or something, then additional expenditure would go towards better pay for the better NBL players opposed to bringing in stars.

If guys like Kay and Brandt are within reach, that would become an obvious downwards pressure on average players who then either take the hit because there is no better alternative elsewhere through lack of leverage, or they depart for better pay in some meh European league or Asian league.

Additional sides could go either way in terms of talent - it can either bring more capital to grab back talent or it could deplete the secondary contingent of Aussies, or it could mean better pay for the more “average” NBL player.

I think what it definitely would do, is decrease depth in sides, but I don’t think clubs should be playing 10/11 players a game - 36ers are notorious for having a bunch of average players, I’d rather they shot the depth a bit and re-focused on a stronger 8man lineup to be perfectly honest.

The commonwealth player would be good Imo, appeal to some of the best players in Britain, Canada and Africa who suffer under the poorly run leagues with significantly lower wages and don't get preference to the big leagues in europe.

Won’t be long, under 5 years before we have 12 teams, many retirements to come and many sort after players from here will get opportunities in the nba or europe diminishing the talent pool.

Look at Wetzell, Kay, Brandt, Fotu, Motum
Cooks, Acuil, goukding, creek, Delly, white, Reath, delany, Humphries, Sobey, Froling etc etc all could go elsewhere.
Who’s to say the b league won’t bring in Asia player rule....

Yeah I don't see why teams consistently play 10 players a game. And then you have SE Melb who seem to turn their duds into main pieces (Adnam, Le'Afa). Certainly the mid-tier players could afford to have their pays cut if they want to stay in the league. I mean there is no other league in the world who is going to pay a lot of these guys 100K to play basketball. The NBL has very good top tier talent but the bench guys really aren't up to snuff on an international level and should be paid that way

"Now add another team or two and the scrubs getting 8-10th man minutes become starters."

you mean like the Grand finalists?

Perth should have a second team. So many WA kids miss out on playing for the Wildcats.

Second team in Perth should be in Cockburn.

"Now add another team or two and the scrubs getting 8-10th man minutes become starters." Ummm no!

"you mean like the Grand finalists?"

The JJs are anomalies. History as proven that that isn't the usual outcome for any expansion team. As much as we can really celebrate what they achieved, elevating bench players to starter positions across the league shouldn't really be the format we're trying to go for.

Basketball show says mike cannon Brookes potential Sydney 2nd team owner/part in which he'll fund a stadium above/near central station.


Stadium cool, 2nd team in same area, not good Imo.

Next to atlassisan offices where he works.

https://www.theurbandeveloper.com/articles/atlassian-wins-approval-on-tech-central-tower

Somewhere close to this new building.

Heard the new Sydney team won't be based in West Sydney since Sydney Kings stadium has many supporters from the West Sydney.

South Sydney was suggested on The Basketball Show.

Really hope if Larry agrees, then make them the South Sydney Razorbacks. Sounds good still and history of the Razorbacks is important.

'West' Sydney kings vs ‘south’ Sydney razorbacks seperated by just 13km from Qudos to central station. Not sure about that... I don’t see the rivalry.

John Cain, Melbourne to sbc arena, sem is 28km, that’s a divide and 2 distinct areas


The only way you could do it would be like the a league has done.

Something like…

Melbourne city … within 5km - John Cain arena
Melbourne united outside 5-15km - new stadium on the outskirts

Sydney city … within 5km - Central station arena
Sydney kings outside 5-15km - Qudos bank arena

Brisbane city … within 5km - Brisbane live arena
Brisbane bullets outside 5-15km - Nissan arena

Not sure Perth or Adelaide would do the same…

Would be 1 way to get more teams in major population areas.



The rivalries though in Aus/nz seem to be
and where the nbl should look to…

Townsville v cairns
Brisbane v Gold Coast
Perth v Adelaide
Auckland v Wellington
Melbourne v south east Melbourne
Sydney v west Sydney
Illawarra v Canberra
Newcastle v central coast

Areas with no real rivalry but big populations
Geelong
Tas
Sunshine Coast
Darwin

Apparently according to a tweet by Jackson Macdonald (backed up by Matt Logue), Australian Billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes, part owner of Utah Jazz, wants to set up another team in Sydney. So when we keep hearing Sydney talk that seems unreasonable or unlikely, that's where it comes from, and clearly it has to have some money behind it.

Its mentioned on The Basketball Show. Apparentluy he wants to build a basketball stadium above central station for it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koo8GjUT_HI

He supports South Sydney so wouldn't be suprised if it’s South Sydney team.

Seems I was right with this then

"As for a Western Sydney team, you can make all the arguments against it (and I think they're all solid) but if LK finds an investor who insists on having a team in Sydney (like he did with the phoenix in melbourne) then thats where a team will go regardless"

It is hardly breaking news that LK loves money.

This is true. But yeah the point remains that while we can discuss the logic of putting teams in certain areas, it will all go out the window if the $$$ is right.

Heard Mike Cannon-Brookes who is a part owner of Utah Jazz would have to sell his ownership if he wanted NBL license. It's in the rules of the nbl, unless they change it.

If this is true it would be fantastic. The franchise would represent south and eastern Sydney and the kings western Sydney.
There colours could be green and red just like south's league team.

Seems like lk going down the a league path, get a big chunk of private equity by selling a below 50% chunk of the nbl and stuff the regions and crowds. Just pile up a bunch of teams in same locations with proposed infrastructure builds or upgrades. The team fails or flourishes, lk wins still.
48 min games, trades at anytime during season, play in games for finals, mid season tournaments.

I dunno, forwards or backwards thinking?
Looking a bit more about the $$$ asap.

It's a $400mill league. Great investment clearly.

I can't see 48 min games coming back anytime soon, if ever

"As the Commonwealth games have shown us, it's not exactly a hotbed for basketball talent."

And I doubt it'd add a lot of potential overseas audience for NBL, which was the purpose of the Asian player rule. While the Commonwealth countries have a combined population of around 2.4 billion, most of those are in Asia.

Apart from the UK and half a dozen African nations, none of the Commonwealth countries outside of Asia have populations over 30,000,000. Those bigger, non Asian nations have around half a billion combined population but you'd think very few potential NBL standard players. They are:

Nigeria
UK
Tanzania
South Africa
Kenya
Uganda
Canada

Mozambique and Ghana are ~29,000,000 each.

You would still find better players from Canada, Nigeria and Bahamas/Jamaica instead of Asia.

Would be good for all nbl rosters if you can design a roster like the Sydney Kings and Tasmania. Cap space is the only problem in the nbl. It needs to go up so the nbl can compete against the B.League and EuroLeague contracts.

What is the benefit of adding commonwealth players though? At least with the asian player rule (which im not in favour of) there is the benefit of interest from countries in our own region (as has been seen with Sotto). What would you get from Commonwealth countries? Most of which we have nothing in common with besides being colonised by the same bunch of europeans

I like the Asian player rule because (in theory) it benefits the (world cup) region by having stronger competition - so having good players from Asia ends up helping Aussie basketball as a whole. I'm not sure that's exactly how it's being used by-and-large (Baba aside), but the theory is fine.

Don't see the point in Commonwealth players at all - much like I don't see the point in Commonwealth games.

The Asian player rule exists solely to try and get more overseas eyeballs on the product.

Once the nbl keeps expanding with more teams the rosters will change overtime.

Bring back the Razorbacks!

And to support KR here the biggest eyeball games this year were Brisbane v SEM. CHINA CHINA CHINA

Seeing some cynicism about LK being "all about the money". The guy has not made a profit from the league at all let's be clear here.

Money wasn't mentioned by me as a negative though but to explain LK's primary motivation in admitting new franchises. Reaching profitability in other words, which is a positive.

Building a *stadium* above Central Station has been floated before.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/sep/12/bold-plan-to-build-new-sydney-stadium-suspended-above-central-station

Central Sydney does need an arena-venue somewhere in the 8-12k range. The Entertainment Centre absolutely needed a total renovation or complete rebuild, but knocking it down without any kind of replacement anywhere in or near the CBD was mad (/corrupt).

Would be weird if this all happens and the Kings end up as the team of the vast suburbia and it's someone else as the splashy inner-city outfit.

And yeah, he's involved with and a huge fan of Souths, but they wouldn't use the colours, or identify too closely - you wouldn't want to put off anyone who is tribal about another league team. Obv. you want to appeal to as many as possible.

Maybe the kings become Western Sydney kings playing out of Qudos
Sydney ...? Out of central station.

No