He is a Ukraine citizen, time for him to put the ball down and pick up some guns

Scary time in the Ukraine right now.

Putin sounds like Trump, the world is at a dangerous place as unhinged leaders play to ignorance and divide and conquer.

The amount of support for Russia from the right / Republican party is scary.

What Russia is doing can not be defended as what Trump did to the US, there are times when sides need to be taken and this is one of them. NATO needs to be strong.

Hope Jerome Randle is ok, a lot of things are now out of his control.

"Putin sounds like Trump, the world is at a dangerous place as unhinged leaders play to ignorance and divide and conquer."

Massive eye roll here. Trump was the first US president in over 30 years not to start or escalate a war or invasion. But yes, Drumpf bad.

"The amount of support for Russia from the right / Republican party is scary."

Where? Evidence? There are two sides to every story. If you read Putin's statement on his so-called "military operation" you'd see that his apparent rationale for invasion sounds a lot like that of non-republican presidents for their little forays in Iraq and Afghanistan. Two sides of the same coin, they are. The only reason we see Putin as wrong is because we inhabit this side of the equation. Both sides are equally inundated with propaganda and half truths so who actually knows what is going on over there? Certainly none of us.

"What Russia is doing can not be defended as what Trump did to the US, there are times when sides need to be taken and this is one of them. NATO needs to be strong."

LOL. What did Trump do to the US precisely? It seems to me like you're just parroting left-wing talking points without giving them any real thought. Are you going to blame Trump for slavery and hundreds of years of racial tensions too? And have you taken notice of how the ass of everything has fallen out since he left? You cant possibly think Biden is a competent leader. And let's face it, Putin is flexing his muscles because he doesn't believe the US will do much about it.

"Hope Jerome Randle is ok, a lot of things are now out of his control."

Well I hope so too but the Ukraine has decreed that Ukrainian men between the ages of 16 to 60 years of age cannot leave the country. They've essentially been conscripted. Randle may rue becoming a citizen. It is a very real possibility that he's forced to take up arms. I am not saying that to be ironic either. I note the feminists aren't out in force to question or undo this particularly gendered piece of discrimination... there are no feminists in war.

Well said ME

I am shocked, shocked, to see ME jump in with a pro-fascist take on this.

"I am shocked, shocked, to see ME jump in with a pro-fascist take on this."

LOL 'pro-fascist'. I'd say the thought police who immediately condemn anyone with different views are the fascists...

You cant debate my point so out comes the name calling, true to form.

One of us knows what "fascist" means, and it isn't you.

ME, trump did bomb Syria during his time, because Syria didn't retaliate does that mean he didn’t start a war?

"Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy that rose to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."

Now the meaning has zoned in on 'far-right', but is this not the same as silencing all dissent, 'cancel culture' and the un-personing of anyone who thinks different to the apparent consensus?

By the way, Nazis were the National SOCIALIST party. They were by definition a left-leaning organization. Stalin, a SOCIALIST. Left-leaning. Would you say they weren't fascist organizations. There's this want to call everything fascist to be right-leaning or conservative but history says otherwise.


Anyway... please... tell me more about how I don't know what fascism means.

This is a basketball forum - I will put it out there that I strongly disagree with ME and do not want to go down the rabbit hole of quoting Trump calling Putin a genius and Fox supporting Putin.

Apologies for putting out a point a view that has allowed ME to fire up.

I'll get back to basketball and avoid the rabbit hole.

" Where? Evidence? There are two sides to every story. If you read Putin's statement on his so-called "military operation" you'd see that his apparent rationale for invasion sounds a lot like that of non-republican presidents for their little forays in Iraq and Afghanistan."

I think perhaps someone like Tucker-Carlson is probably a person to point to re conservatives support for Russia.

What on earth are you on about though?

Obviously Russia was going to makeup a bullshit casus belli. Everyone knew the made up reasons before those made up reasons came to fruition because of intelligence agencies. That kind of stuff was for the Russian population, not for the rest of the world.

If by rationale you mean the genuine reasons, well they are clearly completely different. Putin invaded because he wants to own Ukraine, he hasn't hidden from that fact.

The US, nor the allies at any point went into Afghanistan or Iraq to make it some additional state of the United States.

Afghanistan was a declaration of war by Afghanistan by virtue of September 11 attacks - it even triggered a clause in NATO.

Ukraine didn’t attack Russia. Not the same.

Iraq the claim was something around “WMDs held in contravention of international law” by a dictator.

Let’s say cynically that the rationale of WMDs were made up, it’s still a liberal democracy dumping a dictator that murdered his own people.

Whilst in this scenario, it’s a dictator that murders his own citizens invading a liberal democracy - because he wants to make it another state of Russia.

Clearly, it’s not the same thing, they are technically polar opposites of the equation.

If Bush was a dictator entering Iraq to make it the gazillionth state of the US under the guise that Iraq is a threat to the super power of the US, and if Iraq was a liberal democracy doing its own thing without being so much as a threat to others or its own people (like not having mass graves of murdered people) then yes it’d be the same rationale.

Politics doesn’t even account for anything in this, you’ve straight up equated two entirely different rationales.

“ It seems to me like you're just parroting left-wing talking points without giving them any real thought..... And have you taken notice of how the ass of everything has fallen out since he left? You cant possibly think Biden is a competent leader.”

You deliver a couple of sentences later the EXACT thing you criticise the other poster of. This is a straight up “your view sucks and you don’t substantiate anything, my view rules and I don’t need to substantiate it because my view can’t possibly be wrong”.

I’m wondering if you comprehended just how brazenly you did that?

Well said KET you took the time that I didn't and your post is articulate on point.

By the way, Nazis were the National SOCIALIST party. They were by definition a left-leaning organization.

The Nazi Party,[a] officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei[b] or NSDAP), was a far-right[7][8] political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of Nazism.

"I think perhaps someone like Tucker-Carlson is probably a person to point to re conservatives support for Russia."

He doesn't support Russia. He merely says there's more to the story and there is. The media likes to say Trump bad, Russia bad, Biden good, Ukraine good. But it is definitely not that simple. Anyone who wants to elaborate on things further than that is an alt-right fascist apparently.

"Obviously Russia was going to makeup a bullshit casus belli. Everyone knew the made up reasons before those made up reasons came to fruition because of intelligence agencies. That kind of stuff was for the Russian population, not for the rest of the world."

And what I am saying is the made up BS is the same made up BS American presidents have fed us for generations.

"If by rationale you mean the genuine reasons, well they are clearly completely different. Putin invaded because he wants to own Ukraine, he hasn't hidden from that fact.

The US, nor the allies at any point went into Afghanistan or Iraq to make it some additional state of the United States."

The US want to own Middle-eastern oil and insert governmemnts there that are favourable to their own ends... they do 'kind of' want to make them states of the US in that they want them to act precisely how the US wants them to act. If Afghanistan were geographically Canada they would have taken over.

"Let's say cynically that the rationale of WMDs were made up, it’s still a liberal democracy dumping a dictator that murdered his own people.

Whilst in this scenario, it’s a dictator that murders his own citizens invading a liberal democracy - because he wants to make it another state of Russia."

Do you think the US genuinely cares about whether or not Saddam killed his own people? Really? Do you know how many countries that shit is happening in right now? No... the Iraqi war had zero to do with liberating anyone in Iraq. That's that "Captain America" fantasy the media feeds people. Saudi Arabia is one of the world human rights abusers in the world yet the US are in their pockets.

"Whilst in this scenario, it’s a dictator that murders his own citizens invading a liberal democracy - because he wants to make it another state of Russia."

The Ukrainian president had journalists jailed and political opponents assassinated. Liberal democracy? Since when?

Not here to say Russia should be doing what they're doing - clearly they shouldn't. But I find comparisons to Trump to be frankly, ridiculous and I find people to be pretty out of touch with what fascism is and what constitutes a "liberal democracy". Most people here couldn't point to the Ukraine on a map, let alone tell you just how messed up and fractured the country is. And why that matters is it should inform the level of investment that Australians have in the conflict if and when it comes to sanctions and military action that directly effects us. If we feel it is a 'liberal democracy' and we simply must defend it, then it means we're dragged into something we have no business being a part of all for the 'feels' of doing something right. Trump was at heart an isolationist and wouldn't have got too involved with the situation. Biden is already suggesting cyberattacks on Russia. Doesn't sound like a smart idea to me. Any attack on Russia is an attack on a nuclear superpower. We can condemn what he's doing but we actually don't have the power to intervene without taking some real losses in doing so, first in the pocket, and potentially in time, with lives. All I am saying is the US is really no different to Russia. They invade countries for political and financial ends and it costs civilian lives. We are right there next to them playing the game as well. We actually don't have to be involved in this. It's actually about time NATO did something for themselves.

" By the way, Nazis were the National SOCIALIST party. They were by definition a left-leaning organization."

That's entirely factually incorrect, I’m guessing Nazi history isn’t something you particularly delved into?

To begin with, it’s like North Korea calling themselves the Democratic Peoples Republic. Sure, they’ve called themselves that, but I’m pretty dubious about how democratic it really is.

On a second point, there was a socialist party, and they were entirely at odds with the Nazi Party. In a similar way to how a “democracy party” might be at odds with the governing party in the DPRK. Sufficient to say, they were not friends.

On a third point of the actual voter base that was pursued, one of the major reasons they were embraced was because their voter base saw it as an enemy of and an alternative to the political left, they appealed to working-class resentments to create their voter base (does that sound familiar? Hello 2016 Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania!).

Policy wise, whilst they had a quasi-Marxist rejection of free markets (again, hello Trump market isolationist tariffs and policies!), you’ll find that instead of controlling production or redistributing wealth, the Nazis focused on safeguarding a social and racial hierarchy - so the “large government” was based on nationalism policy, not socialistic policy.

A better term to describe it is “totalitarian” because they were nothing close to socialistic.

Ironically, the Trumpian republicans pursue a closer nationalistic socialist policy platform than any Scandinavian socialist states.

ME's 885941 Post I don't agree with

" We actually don't have to be involved in this."

Australia has always had a history of support for liberal democracy.

“ The Ukrainian president had journalists jailed and political opponents assassinated.”

What on earth are you talking about?

The President is a comedian and has had no such allegations bared against him.

Do you mean the President that was a Russian puppet dictator that was ousted in a revolution around 2014?

Sixers Fan yep and I totally disagree with his post 927 that you state well said ME.

Reading Scout and koberulz just makes me shake my head

Can we just wish Randle and all other Ukrainians safety in these times without talking about Nazism or Fascism?

I have seen a couple of videos on line showing Ukrainian men putting their wives ams children on buses while they stay behind. It looks gut wrenching if true.

I agree ME

By the way, Nazis were the National SOCIALIST party. They were by definition a left-leaning organization.

Why is that silent observer? Please elaborate.

Let's just remember there is two sides to every story,
Thatcher had no problems sending all the British military to the Faulklands even though it was part Argentina centuries ago.
Bush might not have wanted to take control Iraq but certainly wanted his team running it. I’m surprised Putin didn’t claim Ukraine had WMD.
Afghanistan was attacked because of 7-11 but 20 of the 22 were Saudi.

International politics is messy. Australia is better being neutral and looking after our own interests.

"By the way, Nazis were the National SOCIALIST party. They were by definition a left-leaning organization."

Moronic take and a perfect example of revisionist history. Scary how often this gets thrown around these days, and I wonder if most people who say it are being intentionally ingenious or are just naive. Hitler himself slams the left in Mein Kampf most infamously, which is just one example from his well documented life.

7-11 LOL

*disingenuous

Can't go anywhere without right-wing nutjobs spouting absolute trash, wow... Thanks KET for knocking out the big talking points, my brain hurt just reading through the nutbaggery...

Agree that I hope Randle stays safe and I hope this is resolved quickly and Putin stops this madness...

So tell us Kobe. What is fascism?

Randle says on Twitter that he got out of Ukraine and is elsewhere, doesnt say where. Probably training with the sixers seeing as we probably dont have Hopson now

I'd suggest people watch Oliver Stone’s doco "Ukraine On Fire" https://youtu.be/5-UJ8S63Tsw

Definitely opened my eyes and also follow George Eliason who is an American investigative journalist who works and lives in Donbas Ukraine. Be careful believing what the MSM is saying about this conflict but yes my prayers go out to all the innocent people who never asked for this conflict & hopefully Randle can get ojt safely.

LOL @ all this "MSM propaganda" crap.
I guess a country hasn't really been invaded for no reason and I guess shitloads of innocent people aren't having their lives either turned upside down or ended.

I don't know anything about the Ukraine documentary but the most recent doco Stone did was a total work of fiction, so I'd be wary.

Well Randle posted that he's out and is okay.

How many countries have been invaded in the last thirty years, it hasn't been Russia either.

In saying that Putin has been the aggressor and it’s not right but it also hasn’t been right when the west do it.

Everything inside the state
Nothing outside the state
Nothing against the state

The very definition of fascism (by Mussolini if you're interested).

Also a close approximation of the modern Russian state.

ME is not the first to get confused with the use of the word Socialist in the NSDAP (Nazi) party. It was a rather deliberate and cynical use of the word to try and garner wider support for their far right views when the name was changed from the DAP (German Workers Party). The DAP was founded by Anton Drexler and, although he held anti-capitalist views, also held anti-semitic and anti-Marxist views. When it came time to rename the party Hitler actually wanted to name it the Social Revolutionary Party to DISTANCE it from socialism. In short the NSDAP had absolutely nothing to do with the actual true aims of classic Socialism.