Hawthorn men are looking at dropping out of Champ men and women as they have no money to spend on players. Both men and women will play Div 1

The clubs rise has been a house of cards, rich inner east folks throwing money around at junior coaches for years to attract talent. Ex nbl players getting $10k+ to coach 14's ffs.
No stadium of their own, no land to build their own.
Covid and the loss of income couldn’t see coming but it has exposed a flawed way to 'build’ an association.

It's pretty silly having two associations so close to each other. Would make sense to merge.
Would be hard pressed to find associations being as close to each other as these two.

Camberwell don't (at least until now) have a domestic comp. Magic did and these couple of clubs got too big for them and ran off to create their own comp (the private clubs, ie for profit). Will be interesting if any of the junior rep players follow. BV transfer rules prevent players moving en masse to a single club.

I coach at hawthorn, who are the u14 coaches that earn 10k a year ex nbl players?
Girls coach was a cricket player boys played seabl at best?

Donotreach
I know all the coaches. I wasn't asking you. Tom Maher never played. I'm sure he was paid, Michelle Brogan coached the u12 girls for years, ex opal apparently fantastic with that age group of girls. U18 girls coach plated nbl? Again been there for years most likely deserved every $ he earned also.
The pandemic has impacted all associations equally it hasn't discriminated. I personally moved from another club several years ago and found the change refreshing and welcoming. Great environment for the kids.
I have no idea regarding the domestic competition hope they all sort themselves out.

Fleming has left to coach at the jumping jacks.

Donotreach
Maybe they just go the tigers route and have no domestic comp to work with/from?
I don't think msac is theirs? Same as the hawthorn base not being their own?
As I stated the magic have been nothing but a positive experience from my point of view and I have been around the game for probably too long.
I'm sure it will all work out. People have been knocking hawthorn for a while now for the perception of being entitled for a while, myself included back in the day.
Volunteer, get involved for the right reasons anywhere and it all pays off in the end!


They payed me 20k to coach the 4s by the way.

$825 is way too much. Frankston's is $500 or $550 which is probably a little low considering their coaching lineup (all volunteers). $600 - $650 seems like the fair amount and enough to at least give your coaches petrol money

Hawthorn have dug this hole themselves. They were screwing the domestic clubs big time. I'm hearing now that they’ve moved, clubs have been able to pass on significant savings to families, let by the 'for profit’

*led

This drives me crazy the perception that Juniors pay for Senior . All the clubs I know ask Senior Big V players to find their own sponsorship or pay a fee, anywhere from 500 to 1000. VJBL parents you are not propping up senior BIG V programs at 80% of associations. Ask you administrators for a break down of your VJBL fees. You may be surprised as it goes towards uniforms. balls, court hire end of year trophy's and coaches development. Hawthorne no different to the rest of us.

Merge a couple of associations seems to be the go.

Can someone pls explain to be , why it is okay for a association to assume that Jnr domestic should be paying for a Big V program , that costs $150 - 180 k per year, when none of the players are expected to pay for rego , uniforms or source sponsorship and a Board calls this a pathway requirement .

We are talking about junior grass roots basketball , the pathway for those players interested is Junior rep.

You want to play ball , then pay for it ... NOT A FREE RIDE for some , this is the arrogance at Board level

Why merge associations , why should some other Association take on HBA debt . It's like buying a house and taking in someone’s else mortgage along with yours! HBA debt , HBA responsibility

Heard that a high level Board member told some Clubs and members " if your don't like it, go play somewhere else" .. so it looks like the Clubs have taken that advise .. end of story

The issue isn't profit or not for profit Clubs , all have been working in that competition space collectively for years . The issue is that junior domestic is the meal ticket for for HBA other programs. Meme we taken advantage of for years . The kitchen is closed and the workers have had enough ! Wooden spoon dropped and left behind..

BV have said that for the period of the lock downs that they will extend player insurance registration into the next playing game season once it is safe for play to resume

By BV association constitution if is a requirement that all Associations who hold BV licences need to lodge Diana coals to BV within 30 days of holding there AGM , HBA have admitted to Clubs that this has not been done for a number of years ... Transparency please NOT

When do we get to see BV's books??

Titans are all about the domestic competition. They will support their players to play with whichever rep club they choose

No other Rep Club require a fee for tryouts , Magic have set a fee of $25 if you want to try out , this has parents concerned and also the exodus of coaches and Admin in Magic ?

The lodging with BV is to ensure associations are viable from year to year. BV should be giving licences to Associations that are not financially viable and it would also call in to question, if they are not viable , what does it do to the insurance cover BV provide ??????

HBA have included for profit Clubs for years , happy to take their members money and help , but now , let's thrown them under the bus.. Beyond disgusting !

Happily allowed those clubs to do the work to grow the association and thens pent the money in anything but the general member.

Hawthorn have been bleeding money for years! Especially their Big V program.

I was told they asked them for help to mediate and BV said it wasn't their role!? I’m ALSO told that BV said that if they were unhappy they should leave. Wonder if they meant it!

Senior domestic has been bleeding and Incurring sent for years , but was never reported properly due to wrong accounting practices being used at HBA, Board responsibility to sign off on budgets and financials , duty of care , not managing the former GM at the time!!! The Clubs suggesting cutting the Senior Magic , big V programs until they could afford it again , but the Board said it was an integral part of their strategic plan and pathway plan . If it was not for COVID the full extend of the debt would not have been realised ! If you look at the financials the prior 2019 balance have been reactualises for 2020... seriously fishy

Needs to be said again, all domestic comps prop up association senior representative pathways (BigV/NBL1) to some extent. Hawthorn have just clearly missed the mark on the community element of what they are doing and have taken it way too far. Seems from above a few step could have been taken to avoid getting to this point and perhaps the clubs are not the problem here (as hawthorn have tried to imply). Also seems they know it and are trying to hide it?

Am hearing from insiders that the Hawthorn will be taking a year off from entering senior Big V teams next year but keeping the Youth teams. Anyone got anymore on this?

^ Smart move financially!

About time they did something responsible!

If they pulled out of BigV this year, they probably wouldn't have hit this crisis point.

Why did they enter Big V this year? Financially irresponsible!

Should have taken the year off.

Imagine the cash they would have saved in a wasted season.

they are in such a bad way now. if they dont take drastic action they may be gone for good.

Nor is Instagram a forum for BH to state they have a signed written agreement , which isn't true, no Club has a signed affiliation agreement of exclusivity with BH , Clubs opt into a seasonal competition , at the end of the season the competition is finished , until the Club decides to opt in again if they want . Plus a Club can renter teams into different comps run by different Associations .

Segmented accounting would show where money is going and where it has come from , too transparent

Maybe BH will use the money held under their refund policy and player resilience levy fee they take to apply to lawyers and marketing spin .. would make a channeling it into Big V

Maybe another go fund me page

100 post on a club that's gone bust??? Wow. Slow news day!

Depend if BH has communicated that debt and financial issues with BV ?

Definitely an association in damage control trying to blame others for the underlying problems around mismanagement of funds. Someone who was a decision maker before Covid either knew, or wasn't qualified to make the decisions they were and have blown up a great basketball destination. Guess we will see

Word is prior GM was pushed , nor actually resigned ?! Question is why did some board members give him such a glowing reference , on the way out . Then again Board are meant to oversea GM and all practices within the Association

Safe to say the issue here was the use and abuse of the fee paying member. Only 2 of the (first) 6 clubs to leave are for profit clubs...

I think it is probably a lot to do with looking after the majority and perhaps non elite members in the association. Which is what a domestic club is meant to do! Right? A platform for everyone? And hawthorn is the only place I've heard of charging a $95 team sheet fee to teams for weeks they have a bye (ignoring the refund policy issue)…

Not sure being 'for profit' is a crime anyway if your business serves its members interests?

Pretty sure one of the 38 Chelsea posts last year cracked 3 hunge

Also issues of compromise of interest , having 4 paid staff members on the Magic Board at BH , that's should be ringing alarm bells too !

From a board member - The senior Mens and Womens teams will take a season off next year to help the association restructure financially

Quite a few Big V players are already off to Camberwell and Bulleen

If the rumour is true about BigV standing down for a couple of seasons that's great! Clubs have apparently being asking the Board to do that since covid brought the financial mess to light! A bit late though !!!

Hope those Big V player moving don't expect to get paid as some where at Hawthorn , might be a rude awakening for some !!

I bet Chelsea spent more than Hawthorn

By the sounds of it Camberwell will have tons of cash to splash soon

Camberwell don't pay Rep players to play !

If I was a player at Camberwell (BigV or VJBL) I would be seriously annoyed if my spot in a team was lost to someone coming over from Hawthorn. At lest the VJBL players are somewhat protected by the transfer rules but the Big V players aren't.

Well we'll see who plays for the love of the game at a Big V level and or how goes shopping around ?

Don't think hawthorn spent much this year on BigV.

And doubt Camberwell will be displacing loyal Camberwell kids for Hawthorn kids.

Wait and see

*spent much on player payments this year*

Well a source inside Magic said they racked up $120K debt for Biv V , so funds are going somewhere for 4 teams

$120K. Well over half that is the cost to just register 4 teams. Bet they didn't get any refunds from BV. Isn't this whole mess with domestic teams about refunds.

Hearing there are a lot of Camberwell Big v players not happy about the influx coming from Hawthorn

Maybe they could go to Werribee , seeing junior Rep at Hawthorn has some Werribee paid kids playing , so the rumours say!

Thought Rep was meant to be for local kid who play in local comp.. not for outer regional Melbourne ... long way to drive for training 2 times a week .. that Sunday early am would be a killer

Hawthorn's best junior is from Casey....

If you don’t have to play domestic you play rep, says a lot about integrity

If you’re not having rep players play domestic, it’s also a bad model on how to run a sustainable club.

They’ve been too desperate to be a big dog, and have taken shortcuts that the big associations all do to be sustainable.

Sounds like Darebin all over again. Remember their rise and just as quick fall?

Who are Ivanhoe Knights?

Comparing their juniors and how quickly rose to top them how quickly they crashed

Hawthorn have a group undermining the board. Some people are going to have to go.

HAWTHorn has been a mess since the former long term president was forced out around about about 9 years ago. I Also actually am not blaming the current management in the office for a lot of this as their hands have been tied or they have just recently been appointed to their positions too (eg: the ceo).

The change in board has this vision that the two arms of the HBA which were seperately managed (junior magic and then everything else such as domestic and big v) should be managed together. In fact this new board put both the unification of the program and financial mismanagement as the reasons for this takeover too. THey complained that junior magic was not getting adequately funded by the association and that the then general manager was being paid too much for his role, neither which were true.

AT the time of the takeover Hawthorn Basketball was very solvent and could consequently fund all aspects of its operations no issues. Junior magic which was also financially self sufficient still was able to fund its operations alone as at the time they were already paying big name coaches big $ to coach for them. The issue was Magic just wanted more $ from the association to pay for the program further. There was also a very large term deposit in the bank from funds raised around the time that Hawthorn was in negotiations for the new stadium.

Under the first board change, the financial changes started with a complete gutting of domestic costs. Referee pay was lowered, records were kept for things like the amount of pens used and the balls were so old that the teams complained consistently and used to bitch about not getting a new ball for the comps at least once a season. They also lost virtually all of their senior referees for their competitions too.

The association also went from paying one general manager a modest 6 figure salary at the low end of this range who ran pretty much all facets of the organisation with volunteer support to paying multiple people to do his job. Furthermore other significant changes were made to infrastructure used such as moving from a fairly low cost office to an office which was significantly more expensive. This actually increased their costs significantly. Furthermore money was being spent left right and centre on the various magic programs including getting imports and paying players - something which had never happened previously at Hawthorn even during their d1m championship year too.

Meanwhile fees were also going up well above inflation for both rep and domestic causing irritation and concern with members and even leading to some teams leaving. The size of the domestic junior comp had also slightly contracted too since the new board took over thanks to the ways which they chose to manage the competition.

There were also two further GM changes with the first one not having his contract of 6 months renewed and the second apparently resigning due to non compatibility with this board in terms of the way forward/way to get things done.

Fast forward and the new GM was appointed to the association who was simply very disliked by multiple stakholders. Significant tension arose between key groups such as the gm and referees and the gm and clubs due to the way things were handled including a termination of staff members who had great rapport and relationships with clubs.

During this time too there were also multiple changes to the board with the incumbent president who had been responsible for the take over quitting and his hand picked successor was appointed to the role. Really this was shortlived as through the changes to the constitution when the board voted on roles he was dumped and quit the board. The current president was appointed after this time that has been responsible for either continuing to see things through based on what the former board had implemented and also actually overseeing the changes/decisions made by office management which led to these issues now at Hawthorn.

Long story short there were three elements which were responsible for Hawthorn arriving where they are now

1. Seemingly spending excessively on unnecessary items.

2. Running domestic financials like a ponzi scheme where they were paying out half the venue booking fees at the start of the season and then not bothering to pay the second half fees until they got the next lot of seasons payments (thus always a half a season behind).

Hence when COVID hit they couldn't pay the half of the fees that they then owed.

3. The failure/unwillingness to refund money to clubs who had paid in advance for domestic seasons cancelled due to issues over lockdowns.

Literally the talk going around was that this cash was going to be used to fund their ongoing expenses as the debt had blown out thanks to the combination of excessive spending and also the financial mismanagement by the office staff/GM. Hence this is how Hawthorn got into such large debt.

This is all the while the association had still been paying for additional high profile coaches etc even though some might have said that they did not have the revenue/cash for these program moves.

It should be noted that the association also had to settle out of court with a former staff member relating to their dismissal.

Furthermore the board gave praise for the GM who was responsible for the mess both in the lead up to covid and during covid. This gave a lot of people an indication that the board may have been somewhat aware of what they were doing and also actually wanting to shore up/defend their position.

Finally for the association to claim that the clubs were happy with the financial position and the actions of the association going forward is actually false. From the outset when clubs first found out that the association refused to refund fees for cancelled seasons/unplayed games there were multiple complaints made by the clubs including to the regulatory bodies as well.

I could go on further about the things that have happened over the last 9 or so years at Hawthorn, however I think this tends to be sufficient insight into what has happened to date. FURTHERMORe this explains how Hawthorn has gone from a financially sound, growing and functional association to the mess it has reached now.

Just to respond to some of the comments from the latter part of this thread that are relevant:

1. The DOC OF camberwell girls is now Dimmattina who was working in the same role at Hawthorn. Hence I WOUld not at a ll be surprised if he had people come across with him to participate in the program.

2. Most of the Hawthorn Big V Players being paid left when they got told that they wouldn't be. By rights some of those getting paid also happened to have connections to the former board members who were on the board that first instigated this decision to pay players.

3. Ivanhoe Knights are a domestic club which play in the EDJBA. They are completely separate to the Ivanhoe DARebin basketball association which runs off of the old Darebin association.

4. The reason Hawthorn went downhill so quickly was that they tended to stop paying for things like venue hire and expenses like first aid equipment upfront to make sure the competitions were functional.

5. The new general manager of Hawthorn is not the problem and rather he has got to fix the mess.

Who is the new GM at Hawthorn?

Rumour has it AGM will be early this year

Who were previous Gm's
JG
BR
?

Current board members are listed on Hawthorns website , under contact us , at the bottom , all details are their if you would like to make direct contact and make your feeling and thoughts heard ! I am sure they would love to hear from you !

No one worried one of those listed is new ceo of Ba?

Previous GMs were

GM

Board Change:

1. Dale Ryan (served 6 month contract then was apparently not rehired)

2. Sheena Aitken (Left having to deal with issues from the board)

3. Brock Rogers (oversaw the troubles that led to the current situation)

4. Jason Kelly (Started only a couple of months ago)

I think the new BA CEO has since left the board of Hawthorn on taking that role. He'd have to have been there while all of this mess was going on though.

Yeah and I bet he had a kids in the program. Looks like it was his job to oversee the Junior rep program so all of that over payment to rep coaches and "poaching" players/coaches would have to have been on his watch right? Oh hang on there's no poaching in the VJBL right?

Elitism at it'a worst , especially in a community space , so much for being a TRUE community not for profit basketball association ... someone needs to be accountable.. BV new about the issues Clubs we’re having and the Clubs were told it’s an association problem … mind blowing attitude

I don't have a good understanding of this situation,
Are hawthorn going bankrupr or do the have a bad administration or something else
what one is it.

It's both. They have a huge dept. Just lost their primary income source (huge domestic junior base) so could end up being in a position of trading while insolvent.

hawthorn tragic back at it again

They were already trading while insolvent before covid hit, just hiding it in the accounting process they were using . Have been for 5 years

They hid accounting information relating to payouts when they had to pay out two former staff members as a result of them getting sued and subsequently settling because they refused to pay anything for clear legal breaches.

Basically one of those payouts was recorded as a loan and they never disclosed what it was for at the AGM even though that the question of what the loan was for was asked directly to the members present.

Seems they still plan to run domestic with the bobcats as a marque club? Fees are a little higher than your average not for profit club looking at their socials about it.

What are the costs with the Bobcats ?

The Bobcats are apparently also managed day to day by the now former operations manager. My question is whether they will still enter now he has left or not and whether he left on good terms.

$375 for 2/3 of a season, plus finals plus uniforms and one assumes the refund policy isnt flash because hawthorns isn't flash.

Flash , that's an understatement , Hawthorns refund policy is a grab for cash, talk about profiting off a pandemic , $240 K plus , so called community not for profit ... Load of BS , someone’s in fantasy land !!!!

^^ sounds like more spin doctoring

That's interest seeing venues are screaming for money that they owe , drip feeding payments over 3 years

There is no way Hawthorn can claim continuing Magic will be feasible without domestic $ considering they run magic and the dmoestic parts together.

Not to mention that they owe somewhere around $900K too apparently

why does everyone care so much if they want to make money. not every club has to be not for profit.

Agree for profit/not for profit doesn't matter. But don’t lie about it or be shady about it? Given the whole Hawthorn spin on being not for profit it is a little funny that the bobcats appear to be anything but in line with that.

Bobcats are a for profit club. I'd be worried getting in bed with them.

^^ yep they're bagging the 'for profit’ they had who is all about the members & jumping in bed with this bloke who is all about the dollars. Good luck HBA

The attitude at Hawthorn has always been that Clubs members , who sign up to a Club , are actually Hawthorn members, NO the Clubs sign up to an Association to play in a competition on a seasonal basis, at the end of the season that transaction of competition is over till the Club opt in again OR NOT.

Hawthorn have always taken the stance that members money is theirs and they can spend it how they like .

If you are a not for profit association in a community space , ACCOUNTABILITY, HONESTY, TRANSPARENCY Is key to build trust and integrity , Hawthorn has none of these key concept in their management process .. just arrogance, elitism at the helm of the Board (who are responsible) !

This is boring now.

More desperate attempts from Hawthorn at justifying financial mismanagement today with current email , that was meant for Magic players and went to everyone who has EVER players basketball there. That's how’s against your privacy policy of holding players details dor only 6 months . Oh and why is BV’s levy included in your refund pie chart , those funds go to BV for insurance , way to sque financial data in you favour ... More LIES, more MISINFORMATION , just total DESPERATION …. Move on this Crap is getting BORING

^^ Titans correspondence this week was that members should play rep wherever it suits them. They are not about the rep space, they are focused on providing the highest quality domestic game that they can for their members. No hidden agenda, very refreshing really.

If the association was for the community and not for the elite, the not for profits in particular would have had no reason to leave. That's if you believe that a club that is run for profit doesn’t want to see their community thrive too. The focus was wrong, and the clubs left because their community wasn’t important. It looks as simple as that.

And no, I have not read their constitution, and no I’m not about to. Treat people poorly, they leave. That’s the end of it.

"way to sque financial data in you favour ..." Way to have no one take you seriously. Not that we did anyway. Chelsea is very happy with this topic BTW.

I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long. But am quietly enjoying the broader basketball community letting hawthorn know what they have been saying behind their backs for years. Over paid staff? Poached juniors soon to go back to their own clubs? Under resourced and over priced domestic competition? Desperate to be in NBL1 for the status? It was all rumors and now it’s all in the open.

Seems it's all unraveling in Hawthorn?

I know of a Hawthorn mens player getting $500 a game under the table when the club was telling everyone that they were not paying player last year

This place sounds like a mess

Will BV intervene?

GMcd was invested more than anyone in the current league admin space (outside maybe these clubs?). But that association was going to be in trouble tax wise regardless is what I'm told. Perhaps change was necessary, but seems a new management with that same drive is hard to come by.

The other mixed message in Hawthorns emails is that they refunded money ... NO .. Clubs held onto the 3rd instalment as they had serious issue with the Hawthorn grab for cash , let rip off members refund policy .. IF it wasn't for the Clubs and 8 months of battling over the refunds policy Members would have had nothing returned to them except coaching and training costs !!!

Let alone the justification they need to keep 62.5 % of members money to pay Admin costs

So much for community focus ..

And so it continues.
*reaches for third box of popcorn

The Magic club transformation took of prior to GMCD getting pushed out of the association. The first year the magic program succeeded at championship level was 2012.

Also the tax issue pretty much became a non event really. There was nothing said of it nor was there any issues relating to tax too once the new committee took over. One sees that as a pretty good smokescreen used by the new committee to try to claim misgovernance.

GMCD ran the Hawthorn Basketball Association seriously better than any of the subsequent committees or presidents.

BV Now investigating!
Statement on their website. The "home and away" of domestic bball at the moment.

So more desperation and spin tonight from Basketball Hawthorn , way to spin a statement from BV , that is investigating them , due to financial issue and not being fully honest in their position with BV .

No respect for members , no respect for due process !

BV have listens to the masses on hoops!

Can't believe this has over 200 posts

Is it appropriate for the BA CEO to wage in on domestic basketball affairs? Is he still listed as a board member there? I know he stood down but was still on the hawthorn website the other day.

Imagine justifying a $95 team sheet charge for weeks you have a bye. Or maybe only refunding 50% of that for games cancelled for Covid.

Then imagine your community being ok with that? Bet they wouldn't be...

If you are in a toxic, abusive and undermining relationship , you leave .

Clubs left BH due to ongoing frustration and arrogance from the Board , financial demands on members to pay a debt that wasn't incurred by them , then continued to profit thru the refund policy BH implemented to further prop up the Assoc. Before covid , there was NO refund policy .

Clubs followed BH constitution and BV constitution, as required. Relationship over. Plus Clubs opt in on a season basis, there is NO contractual obligations .

NOW more slander and defamation and lies.

This sort of behaviour warrants BH to have their licence pulled by BV.

No care for the community , no respect for families or player .

Move on .. Hawthorn your dumped !

You would think Hawthorn having the BA CEO in their corner is going to make sure they get out of this ok

The BA CEO gets a corner?

The BV investigation should be squarely set on BH and their lies (6+ years of them). Last night's BH communication makes it looks as though BH instigated the BV investigation and is more spin. Hopefully BV uncover their financial mismanagement and drag them over the coals for it.

I have heard that multiple clubs have BV correspondence that encouraged them to look for another association if they didn't like BH's style/mess. Would love to see that hit the public domain...

Can't blame the clubs, sounds like they have been at this for a while and made the tough call to move on.

Clubs and members are over it. BH should crawl back under their rock and let clubs play where they want.

The above is interesting. If BV knew and supported the clubs leaving what's the expected outcome of their investigation???

More hysteria from Hawthorn over night acting like a tabloid rag , oh wait a minute the Chair of the Board works for a large media org , that explains the management style /culture , NO care for facts, truth , respect or due diligence. Just attention seeking comments which are total fiction , only good enough to line your budgies cage ! What rot

What do they say , never let the TRUTH get in the way of a good story ....Shame Hawthorn Shame !

Shame on Hawthorn? Are you on drugs?

Camberwell out right poached domestic clubs, rep players and coaches to try and build their new competition.

Bv need to make an example of Camberwell.

Might need to check your facts...
Clubs wanted out and camberwell were the best option among others.
Hawthorn had their chances but arrogance and incompetence finished them.

BV should make an example of Hawthorn. Poor governance and financial compliance... they need to be held accountable...

NO Club as poach, Camberwell have done nothing wrong, EVERYTHING RIGHT by the Clubs, by the community and by it's families and players.

Clubs are free do enter into ANY association competition, it's a seasonal opt in model, ALWAYS has been with BH , NOTHING has ever been signed!!!!

BV statement on Friday confirmed support "Clubs freedom of associations"

The Clubs have been in discussion and constant frustration with BH board for more than 2 years, the arrogance and Magic centric focus AT ALL COSTS, doesn't matter who pays for it (DOMESTIC) - total BLOATED EGO.

Countless meetings, zooms and 100's hours of volunteers time , to get domestic members a better deal , a fair cop, an even playing field. Seems no mercy rule applies when it comes to Hawthorn and the ripping off of funds from it cash cow.

Clubs warned BH on many occasions, Board thought it was a joke "go ahead - leave" thinking other options were not out there! So due process has been followed, notice served - notice acknowledged and received - ISSUE OVER

Poached? That's a stretch.
Literally laughing out loud.

Not sure the investigation stops the members registering where ever they want and Camberwell and hawthorn going about their business? Only communication that implies any need to pause reengagement is the ridiculous email/socials update from Hawthorn itself. Creating doubt and actively attempting to impact participation?! Good grief! Surely someone is ashamed of those emails? Safe bet the current GM isn't at fault here. Didn’t he only get there a few months ago?

Interesting that prior comms from Hawthorn had the GM name on it , the fabrication of lies and spinning of BV statement from Hawthorn on Friday night , had from them 'Board'... new GM has more credibility / honesty to put his name to a false statement .

One could assume that the Board could have employed him as a scape goat , just more shame and mistreatments of some staff and the community !

Rumour has it , that the Chair of the Board , stood in a meeting with Clubs spruiking that they were surrounded by brilliance (referring to other board members).

Such brilliancy that has resulted to running an association into the ground and being totally detached from reality and purpose of the the association in the first place . PLAYING BASKETBALL

Sorry .. games over !

So Hawthorns brand was already tarnished with all the gossip and financial concerns, but the email on Friday that total misrepresent the sentiment from BV statement , has just smeared that brand in a thick layer of crap! Oh and there is no way you can turn it into Nutella.

And man it stinks .....

A real shame for Hawthorn Magic should they have to fold.

Maybe Hawthorn should try and run another GoFundMe page called We'll Stop the Rot", thinks families would be happy to pay them to STOP sending out long winded emailed ...

The loyalty to magic will be tested for all this for local kids and otherwise.

I hope the kids stay and play there.... Local kids particularly.

The Hawthorn board of management sucks ass especially with the way they have handled heaps of things. They're totally responsible for the issues that the club has and have been happily funnelling $ into the Magic part which has been both excessive and outside their means. Apparently they asked their referees to pay $20 towards their development due to having insufficient funds while paying coaches still for the upcoming rep season.

Who ran a gofundme page?

Is that even legal fir a club to do when they are trying to make a profit?

Hawthorn Basketball ran one at the start of the pandemic last year.

Clubs have NEVER run a GoFundMe page !

It was Hawthorn Basketball!

How much in debt are they?

It was hundreds of thousands of dollars at the start of the pandemic.

What was it spent on?

Who do they owe?

Stadiums? Uniform suppliers? Surely not staff?!

They got told to bugger off by one venue a few years ago that they had been using for years and regularly because they apparently owed them $150,000 in hire

Basically they owe everyone , venues , ATO , BV, not sure about staff entitlements. Spent an enormous amount on Magic uniforms $150K but no buyers for them and some needed to be written of as it had old sponsorship on it. The rebranding and marketing of Magic has cost a fortune and the rest on Big V $180K per year loss.

Had a big picture strategy , but no means but domestic to funds it . Cash cow has walked .. time to wake up to reality!

IF I was a supplier , I would be going to a lawyer or debt collector VERY quickly!

Some are before the chance of claiming money goes

Not good for Hawthorn, more Clubs have left ..... and then their we're NONE

Just saw that the Richmond club is out. Do they hve any clubs left?

Where did they go?

All to Camberwell I assume?

Or EDJBA always an option

Maybe the head of Basketball at Hawthorn can bring some more relos from Werribee to play in a team against the Peninsular Bobcats team ..

Basketball in Hawthorn will survive. But maybe a less than graceful step down from the community built throne will come with some lessons on how to treat people and manage money?

Why has a team from the Peninsula go to Hawthorn?

So seems like the former staff member of hawthorn jason weidemann is working for the organisation sports administration services which handles the bobcats management amongst other things too.

I wonder whether Jason's links to Hawthorn as the former operations manager are what was the reason that they ended up entering their club/teams in Hawthorn's domestic competition?

Ironic that Hawthorn did not think that their little lie about these for profit clubs being a problem with basketball at Hawthorn wouldn't be exposed either hahahahahahahahaha.

Have no idea why Jason Weidemann left Hawthorn too.

Jason left Hawthorn due to ongoing issues with micro managing from the Board, who thought they new best. Jason was all for streamlining the programs and making Big V a self funding program , but Board would not divert from Strategic Plan, "win at all costs" . The mental health strain this board has put on staff has been enormous - pushing a plan that staff don't align with morally or on a personal value basis.

You don't rip your community off!

This makes much more sense. Seems that the toxic element in this has been the board and not the staff (aside from the former general manager and the issues around payment of fees for venues)

The staff have had it tough, they should be commended for keep fronting up, the Venues and suppliers are also hurting, they need their money and some of these debts go back before COVID and now will be drip fed for another 2 years.

The new GM , has been treated as a buffer for the Board, and due to the Boards total arrogance and inability to pivot business strategy and mindset, has left the organisation doomed to failure , as domestic are tired of being used and of the ongoing battle, to ensure the community and grass roots basketball gets a fair crack!

It's a colossal mess and it looks like that board has spent a long time bullying their way through to get what they want. Surely enough is enough on this one?!

BVs investigation appears to be into the association itself. Their statement on the issues seems vague and almost forced. Like they felt they didn't have a choice but to comment publicly. They Certainly don’t seem keen to step in on association matters at all, but perhaps this is a reminder that maybe they should do some health checks. Prevention rather than waiting for the bomb to go off.

The board seems to have tried to strong arm through all this. Not a great leadership style in a community level association. If the debt was made public at the start of the pandemic it's safe to say that the clubs have tried to make this work before almost being forced out. People always have options and treating the people you NEED poorly isn’t exactly a great retention strategy. Exhibit A: Hawthorn Basketball

in this thread everyone is basically saying the same thing over and over again.

I thought associations had to report to basketball Victoria? Sounds like this financial hole was going to be hard to miss? Unless reporting doesn't actually happen or the reporting isn’t accurate? Hawthorns spending isn’t a secret and their high fees are not a secret either. But I’m sure nobody anticipated this fall.

Agree! This goes around in circles. Time for BV to say something other than 'we should probably look at how this happened'.

in this thread everyone is basically saying the same thing over and over again.

It seems BV report to Hawthorn.

Hawthorn some how have a heap of pull.

ah yes a heap of pull

Would hope that BV will be transparent!

Alot of volunteers donate 1000's of hours to keep Clubs running and kids on court and do their financial due diligence , as they are operating in a community space.

Hawthorn and BV should be do their!!

If BV have any creditability, is shouldn't matter that the CEO of BA , who was the Chair of Magic, should hold no sway!

But then again , it might just come down to EGO and Image - NOT TRUETH and FACTS

So there is an investigation statement from BV, and then?? Hawthorn made out like all members should wait for the outcome.

Surely that isn't helping get kids back on court if the outcome of how Hawthorn mismanaged their community and finance so badly is going to take longer than a week?

You have got to be feeling for those local kids trying to get back out there. Is there no update at all?

Standard compliance of BV constitution for Associations for Membership

6.2 (e) Compliance of member associations

provide BV with copies of its annual financial statements and annual
report and other associated documents including but not only evidence
of its incorporated status, details of its officer bearers and its
membership data within 30 days of the Member Association's annual
general meeting;

So if Hawthorn had been submitting financials BV should be all over it , then again Treasure admitted they hadn't done in 4 years and was unaware they needed to!

^^ hoopie^^
I agree... none of those options look good for BV.
- asleep. Could be true, but won't admit it.
- knew and did nothing. That’s not a good look (embarrassed in front of their friends).
- pass the buck. At least it’s not admitting it’s their fault! so I think it will be the option 3

Clubs leaving isn’t good for anyone including the clubs themselves. I’m sure it’s a big task.

It appears clear though that the issue here was big enough that BV should have acted and didn’t.

When Clubs ask for help from BV and got told it's an association issue and wash there hands if it , what else is there to do!

Can’t work with a Tragic centric board , who are more than fine for other to pay for a program aimed at a few.

Clubs looking out for players and families has been key through this whole process , time to move .. not like BV and the Board hadn’t told Clubs that if they don’t like it .. then leave !

End of story

No outcome on the investigation yet?

Aren't there question marks surrounding Tiger’s atm too? Possibly losing MSAC?

I think melbourne are in a hot mess of their own.

I have NFI about Hawthorn and it's clearly a mess but having just stuck my head in here I was aware of a FB post from one of the great Tigers people who posted on FB that the Tigers are in a mess and L Gaze and co were extremely concerned about the future of the TIGERS. Can't add anymore to that because the original post was deleted by the OP.

I saw that post before it was deleted too. Until I saw it, I didn't know melbourne were in any trouble. Basketball Victoria obviously have their hands full making sure basketball survives in those two areas.

The post from a very respected Tigers person talked about the demise of Lindsay Gaze's Tigers.

There are no domestic teams left at Hawthorn , Bobcats have also withdrawn . BV are still investigating into issues at Hawthorn .

Hawthorn should be rebuilding Magic junior and Senior domestic comp and stop the shape shifting and blame.

What's Melbourne got to do with this. Don’t drag other clubs into this mess

Mess is an understatement btw

I think this was RMITs fault.

Are people still even following this mess?

As someone linked to hawthorn magic, I'm following it!

As someone linked to hawthorn magic, I'm following it!

Congrats on the triple ton. Will this get to 400?

The damage this has done to their brand is massive. Will be a long time before people trust them as a club again.

Might take years to recover.

Plus COVID impact

I hear something is brewing...

Watch this space.

Luke,
what do you mean by that

are you talking about nunawading

Plenty of disenchanted Hawthorn (and Melbourne) players at Nunawading's non-compulsory outdoor pre-tryouts on Sunday.

Nunawading does not let kids participate from other clubs without a permission to train.

Strange how Hawthorn can now do basketball at a reason price, yet it too Clubs to move for Hawthorn to be competitive ... or is that desperate … will not be sustainable with the debt and massive overheads they have.

Then again Hawthorn have stated they don't need a domestic comp to be financially viable . If that’s so stop the misinformation and confusing members .

So if the grab for cash "cheaper than cheap" comp doesn't get off the ground, do teams get their money back, can't see anything about refund if comp is cancelled.

Or is that just another donation players are unaware they have made to the debt level

Valid comp or just further desperation !

So a team sheet last season was $95, now they have dropped it to $70 , so that means they have been ripping members off $375 per team for years . Last season alone $70 x 15 rounds x say 500 teams in domestic junior - $191K per season, that's $382500 per year.

And that is without a money grabbing refund policy!

No wonder Clubs have left!

So much for being a not for profit community association !

At least the for profit Clubs in the comp deliver on promises, service and experience!

I'd stop throwing stones and have a good look internally , as that glass house / ceiling Hawthorn have created is about to implode!

And no band aid or glue stick is going to keep that hot mess together!

"So a team sheet last season was $95, now they have dropped it to $70 "

So what were they doing with the extra $50 per game?

How much extra would that of added up to over a week? a season? a year?

Have they given any explanation for this?

It's laughable really.
$50 to register a team
$25 to register a player. Detail not included in advert but it’s on the first page when you register a team.
$70 per team sheet
$0.50x 8 for the hawthorn levy per player

Assuming 7 players in your team
$100 team sheets.

8 players?
$104 team sheets.

No coach, no training, no support.

What is the "$0.50x 8 for the hawthorn levy per player"

I can say with 100% certainty, despite the denials above, there are lots of Hawthorn rep players (high teams) registered to try out elsewhere. The permission to trains will come through thick and fast next week.

The $.50 per game per player is a fee Hawthorn introduced to pay off the debit.

Magic players pay an additional $1 per game

Snr Domestic additional $1 per game as well

This has been going for a year , then the added funds they collected through a refund policy that kept 100% of 2 rounds lost due to covid and 50% of every round after that!

If it wasn't for the Clubs refusing to pay the final 5 rounds instalment , nothing would have been handed bank to members

$50 will go to so called Admin costs

Over a year that alone is an additional $382K getting sucked out of Jnr Domestic

And still they have financial issues!

Literally laughing out loud at how poorly Hawthorn have managed their general membership here!
Over charge and under deliver. Then, to complete the package, blame the people that do all the work for you when it goes wrong!

If it wasn't kids basketball , you'd think it was a pyramid scheme

The real question is WHY BV have done nothing about Hawthorn when supposedly been trading for years as insolvent , Clubs reach out for help and shut them down with a "it's an association issue".

Maybe BV need to be investigated ? Do they check the financials of the association members each year to see if they are viable ?????? Or that they have been lodged as required ... don't thing so.

BV is the Titanic and Hawthorn is that bloody Iceberg that everyone kept warning them of ..... don't think Rose is going to be singing on this ship!!

WOW

I'd be staying well clear of anything to do with that sort of financial model

Hawthorn were not thrown about by Covid... they were exposed by it

Hundreds of thousands of debt and they didn't know?

The GM at the time was paid to know. COVID is not an excuse for that level of mismanagement.

Incorrect accounting practices and hiding expenses in other areas and moving money around to cover a gaping financial whole called Big V and ripping funds out of domestic , has nothing to do with covid .

You can't blame covid , for financial mismanagement and negligence. No due diligence has been upheld by the board , just an attitude to grow Magic to lofty heights and bugger the rest of it ! Great Strategic plan and pathway . Please !

Imagine being such a mess that you thought your best shot at survival was a public hanging of the people who served your association the longest.

Almost as embarrassing as leading the association into serious debt and trying to hide over charging your own community to resolve it.

Just more blame shifting , no care, no responsibility!

Imagine hiring a new GM and using him to deal with the fall out and damage the Board have created with the Clubs and the members and not being honest with what has occurred or what the GM has signed up to , would assume there are legal issues that have been breached under employment law and fair work here too !

The new GM is hopefully looking into all that.

Annon please explain this?

"Imagine being such a mess that you thought your best shot at survival was a public hanging of the people who served your association the longest."

Has something happened that we don't know about?

They have actively attacked the volunteers at our NFP club implying that their actions are against the community's best interests. Our committee have worked tirelessly through this pandemic and certainly don’t deserve any of this bad press.

The first our committee heard of any investigation was via a press release from Basketball Victoria.

Further to that they have aired this issue with the past 7 or 8 years of members. Which is a breach of their own privacy policy.

Diminishing the confidence of the community is a big deal.

The people giving up their time for their local community certainly do.

I think they need to completely re brand and get away from these troubled years as the reputation will stick for a long time!

Worked for Casey / Cranbourne

I think some kids are over the politics of who makes what team

Lots of disenchanted Magic players trying out elsewhere.

They talk of the Great Covid Resignation, we could see a Mass Magic Exodus.

Wouldn't there be an issue of solvency? No longer any income but still a big debt to service.

There are rules around how many 'import' players transferring from one club to another can suit up per team at their new club. Max 2 players per team max, but this changes if there are additional new teams added at the new destination club that they did not have the year before. i.e. destination club had 3 teams but now have enough players for 4 teams in 2022. Hence team 4 can have more 'imports' if that the max 2.

Plenty of kids just not wanting to play as well

Kids are not the one paying the bills , it is the parents of these Rep kids who have also had a gut full of paying overs and getting very little in return , in way of refunds, or credit carried forward.

Agree kids want to play ball, but at want point do you stop throwing money at an association that has such little regard for community and families.

Might have had great Cache as you say , but no amount of disinfectant and sanitiser is going to get rid of the stench and mess that has been created!

Wonder how many coaches will remain in Magic if the funds have dried up?

Have always paid astronomical amounts to some coaches, so much for the love of the game and passing on knowledge and developing skill.

This leave a real bad taste ....

Under privacy policy it is an issue to retain a data base that is more than 6 months old, breach of Hawthorns own policies and constitution.

The concept someone hasn't played at Hawthorn for 10 years is getting information is against the Privacy act 1988 , should be reported to OAIC and FTC - Federal Trade Commission

Who is getting what information and from where?

Who is getting what information and from where?

Who is getting what information and from where?

Is there some where this information is publicly, lots of people seem to know a lot of confidential information.

Hawthorns privacy policy is on there website , so are the financials, auditors report and constitution, refund policy has been blocked

Maybe have a read and see what is going on

You don't need to be a brain surgeon to read between the lines of the financial reports and the tabloid spin and guff that has been put out there by Hawthorn

Not a lot of confidential information here, it's all in their press releases and financials online. I believe members are entitled to all financial information from the league upon request.

Clubs have been calling out the financial issue at Hawthorn for years and trying to get the Board to address the spending and programs that have got them into this mess.

The Board has always taken the stance that it is their duty to run Hawthorn , not the Clubs. But it is domestic that seems to get hit with the increase in playing fees for the financial mismanagement.

I think after nearly 4 years , the Board had more than enough time to address issue, COVID has nothing to do with the level of debt , it just stopped play for a bit and the direct financial secret came to the surface.

Oh and members implored Clubs for a better solution for kids to play basketball!

Feel sorry for the new GM. Walked into an absolute mess.

Baller65 do you know something we dont.

"Are Hawthorn trading insolvent?"

News to me. Sure Basketball Victoria would have been across it.

Baller65 do you know something we dont.

"Are Hawthorn trading insolvent?"

News to me. Sure Basketball Victoria would have been across it.

Seriously is it that hard to comprehend, how do you come up with a historical $800-900 K debt as soon as COVID hits.

And make a desperate move of running a Go Fund Me Page - Keep the lights on at Hawthorn

If your not in trouble .. why the need to have a 3-4 financial plan to pay off debt

I don't have an issue with Coaches getting paid , I do have an issue for other programs and players being charged a higher rate in order for that coach to be paid.

If Magic wants to pay coaches at a certain level that's fine , but it needs to be charged and expensed through the Magic program , not DOMESTIC.

Needs to be self funding

This has been a long thread that's for sure!
Hawthorn should probably consider slipping into the shadows. Quietly.

curious as too what sort of $$$'s rep coaches are/were getting paid for a season.

The coach pay certainly has a lot of BS attached to it around the traps I'm sure. But I know it was 10k for a while there. Could be more or less than that now?
Whoever mentioned before I agree with: pay your coaches well! That’s great! But make sure the people getting that coaching are the ones paying for it. Coaches give a lot and go through a lot often for peanuts. So I wouldn’t be mad that the coaches get paid assuming the club can afford it!

It was 10k for the 1's coaches. Closest to that was Sabres with $3k for 1’s coaches. Most get nothing or petrol money

It was definitely 10k for the big names. My friend took one of those roles for a year and they had hardly ever coached before! That was 10 years ago, maybe more?

A number of rep clubs coaches are 100% volunteers

What is happening with Hawthorn's senior teams?

Will Hawthorn be around in 12 months? or should they merge with Camberwell? What do people think will happen?

Will Hawthorn be around in 12 months? or should they merge with Camberwell? What do people think will happen?

No one has actually said how much the debt actually is...

Just merge the two. I'm sure BV will figure it out for them.

Is this the most responses on a thread?

Camberwell won't agree to a merger so it doesn't matter.

Why would Camberwell even want to work with Hawthorn, after Hawthorn have thrown them under the bus, caused an investigation by BV, all because Clubs wanted a better comp to play in.

Why would you take on Hawthorns debt. The Debt is Hawthorn's responsibility and BV if anyone should be cleaning it up!

Nor would Camberwell's volunteer model suit Magic - one is community based, the other is a revenue model for some players and coaches at Magic.

One association per LGA and you're proposing to get rid of the volunteer one in Boroondara and keep the one riddled with mountains of debt known to overcharge and extort to play there?

The VJBLs sole purpose is to provide a pathway for National teams? That's a lot of under achievement out there.

That said, Hawthorn’s rep level product has been pretty solid over the years performance wise. Paying coaches? Whatever, do what you want. My personal view is that coaches deserve a LOT more than they get from their clubs. But the user needs to pay for that. That’s not what was happening at Hawthorn in recent years and it seems that they couldn’t afford a lot of the things they we’re driving.

So basically has hawthorn been a pyramid scheme??!!

Hawthorn didn't develop the talent they had, most of it was poached from other clubs.

How many of the Big V players at Hawthorn actually game thru the Magic Jnr program .... ummm .. currently 3.

So Domestic have been paying for 4 Big V teams .. 40 players and very few are from Magic... that is crap

That's not a pathway ... it is arrogance dressed up as a aspiration for kids to look up too .. so wrong

"Anon" who posted
“There should be only 1 association per LGA. We would get rid of Chelsea, Keyborough, Westgate, Camberwell. It's supposed to be rep ball. Representative of your local area.”

You are ignorant in not knowing that Chelsea are in fact the only association in their LGA. Educate yourself please before you make these comments.

Stop trying to make every post a Chelsea hate post

Why so much hate for Chelsea?

Mostly because of the hound potting everyone else for years and carrying on like a dick

Carry on then

Serious how many email can Hawthorn send out in one week bombarding Club members- 5 and counting , must be a breach for privacy ...let alone the desperate social media campaign .. 3 times a day..

WE haven't played in the comp for 5 years and still get their drivel ..it is enough already!

Desperation.

The social media clearly doesn't know who it’s customer is or was?? Before this week, the latest post specifically relevant to a domestic member or club (excluding govt updates and wordy attacks on domestic clubs once they had left) was March 21, 2020. Everything else that gets featured is about Hawthorn Magic or over priced clinics. Only the elite matter to Hawthorn. You don’t even have to be local.

You think Covid is why it's gotten this bad for the Magic Association? Or a hand full of people concerned about a couple of dollars? Lots of people involved in basketball are volunteers. Not just the board. Safe to say it’s Hawthorn doing the 'tearing down’ via email to every member they have had in the past 10 years. I have not coached or played there in 5 years!
Hawthorn Magic is a great club on reputation and hopefully it continues to develop kids without the over spend. Maybe now with a little more focus on local kids instead of recruiting from other associations to win?

I gotta say I do enjoy coming back to this thread. LOL! Silly old Hawthorn thought the wins at the top were the key to success overall. Community sport is exactly that, COMMUNITY sport. They have hung a lot on some big community contributors thinking they could push people around. Let's see what this investigation pulls out, if it ever happens.

An angry 10-12 people at least. Very angry.

Boring.
Basketball Victoria: finish this off so it's not a talking point any more.

What have the emails been saying?

First few accused the clubs of leaving to put money in administrator pockets. Harped on being not for profit although keeping a lot of money collected for rounds not played due to covid.
I don't know the figures, scroll up.
Kept 2/3 delivered 1/3. Something like that.

Senior Big V teams pulled. More to come

How did you hear that?
Shame they didn't do that a year (or 2) ago and they might not be in such hot water.
Is that a byproduct of that BV investigation? Maybe they are helping that board with their decision making.

Surely it is time for BV to make its findings and for things to move on, kids want to play sport and Hawthorn need to accept what has happened , own it and stop the confusion they are causing with all the emails to people.

It is not helping parents or kids to get back onto court

BV are taking BA's lead in sweeping investigations under the carpet.

So many parents of Hawthorn VJBL players have so many unanswered questions.

Anyone know when there will be some updates published?