As to my understanding there should've been no issue since Thybulle received his citizenship or dual passport as a kid and considering this latest knews and the Nigerian situation cotton should’ve been allowed to play all along despite goorj being told he could only have 1 or the other.

Mute point when Cotton isn't a citizen

FIBA deals with players on a case-to-case basis. Only the FIBA secretary general has a final say on the classification of a player. In Giannis's case, he was born in Greece and learned basketball there, but of course, we all know that he did not have legal papers, but you already know my point. He has a strong case of being a local, thus he is recognized as a Greek by FIBA.

BTW, isn't Thybulle a local? Based on his Wikipedia page, he is a dual citizen. From what I know, he should be because as long as a passport is issued before the age of 16, they can play as locals regardless of bloodline.

Countries like Indonesia and Qatar are also exploiting this loophole. With Indonesia recently picking up 2 Senegalese teenagers (Diagne & Kane), they are both considered locals.

That's literally the point Anon. Why was Giannis allowed to play despite not being a citizen however Australia was told we could only have one of cotton or Thybulle since with Thybulle’s situation he never should’ve been counted as our adult gets citizenship thing when his was dealt with as a kid. Therefore not restricting the boomers to having only 1 of he or cotton.

Even if cotton didn’t get his done, then how come Giannis was allowed to play despite not being a recognised citizen 2 full years after. It simply doesn’t add up.

To avoid abuse and teams filling rosters with naturalised players, there needs to be a distinction between players with non-basketball links to a country (Giannis being born and bred in Greece, even though he may not have had a passport in his youth) and players who basically join as adult basketball players (typically because they play professionally in the country, but some countries could also just start handing passports to good players).
Thybule is an interesting case, as he could be deemed to fall in the former category. But it's not as clear-cut as Giannis who is for all intents and purposes Greek.

@JB

Exactly, JB. We need these rules to ensure fair play. This all started when Qatar had not 1, not 2, but 5 quote-unquote "Qataris" playing in the 2011 FIBA Asia Cup. 

Of course, there will always be exceptions like Giannis, but then again, there was no foul play on that end. Like you said, Giannis was born and bred in Greece. The Basketball Federation of Greece has a strong case that he should be a local and rightfully so. 

For context, FIBA's decision on a player's classification is always handled on a case-to-case basis. As a Filipino, I am quite familiar with their decisions regarding this, especially because we have a lot of Filipino-foreigners. 

For example, despite obtaining a passport late and not even playing or living that much in Indonesia, Brandon Jawato was granted Local Status. We also have a decent case that Angelo Kouame could be a local since he learned to play basketball under Tab Baldwin in the Philippines, despite not having any Filipino blood. 

It is really up to FIBA. The important thing about the classification rules are that there are a lot of factors that go through this. How long did that player live in that country? How long did that player play in that country? Where did that player learn basketball? Will granting this player local status help that country? There are just a lot of factors.  

Without these rules, countries like Qatar would just abuse them, but of course, even with these rules. There are still ways to find loopholes, like what Indonesia did with bringing 2 Senegalese and issuing them passports before 16. 

I am not sure about Thybulle's situation, but as long as he had the passport before he was 16, he is no doubt classified as a local, but even if he did not obtain the passport before 16, he still has a good case. Let's just hope that FIBA will approve his classification.

No, there's no conspiracy.
Cotton (when not injured) is the best player in Australia, by far. It's not even close.
If he was able to play, he'd be the first player picked for the qualifying ("NBL") teams, and he would definitely be in the squad for the Olympic/WC teams. And then he'd certainly be picked ahead of some others.
But, as Joey would say, it's a Moo point. He's not Australian, and will only ever qualify as a (limit of one) naturalised player.

In regards to Thybulle, I have two issues. The first is purely a matter of personal opinion.

He's an American, with no entitlement to inherit Australian citizenship, and no connection other than living here from the ages of around 2-9. I personally don't think that qualifies.
Cotton (and others before him) (including ironically Goorjian) have made a conscious decision to choose Australia as their home. Including settling down and having a family here.

The other issue, as mentioned above, that I just can't get my head around, is how Thybulle qualifies as a "Naturalised Australian"
He lived here from the ages of 2-9. Assuming he qualified at that time, he would have received citizenship then, and would not count as naturalised.
If he didn't get his citizenship at that time, then he has no way of qualifying. His parents aren't Australian, and he has no ongoing commitment or connection.
Just a mystery that I'd like an answer to.

He was given citizenship in 2013 the recent citizenship was for family members.

@D2.0

Reading your comments about Thybulle, it is somewhat similar to Jordan Clarkson's case, but at least JC has some Filipino in him. It seems like Thybulle can only be a naturalized player. Hell, Thybulle could come from Mars or Jupiter and still be a local as long as he had his legal papers before he was 16. 

To be honest, he is no different to Ra Gun-ah or Andray Blathce, since he was not issued that passport. Especially from FIBA's perspective, but who knows? Maybe him living in Australia could make it more favorable for his case.

Even Kouame is more Filipino in FIBA's eyes than JC since he developed his game in the Philippines. 

Just look into the rules from FIBA.

Source:

http://www.fiba.basketball/downloads/v3_expe/agen/docs/3-ELIGIBILITY-NATIONAL-STATUS-of-%20PLAYERS.pdf

" b. For purposes of letter (a) above and in the event of doubts, any player claiming to have acquired a legal nationality before having reached the age of sixteen (16), without presenting the respective passport with a date of issue before the player's sixteenth birthday, requires a decision by the Secretary General confirming that he does not fall under the restriction of letter (a) above. In taking this decision the Secretary General shall take into account the following criteria:

- the number of years during which the player has lived in the country, for the national team of which he wishes to play;

- the number of seasons during which the player has participated in domestic
competitions in the country of the national team for which he wishes to play;

- any other criteria capable of establishing a significant link between the player and the country, for the national team of which he wishes to play. "

So it's a citizenship vs. passport distinction to catch out countries who are doing a dodgy. Fair enough but it's unfair Australia gets caught in the middle of it when we don't naturalise players on a whim.

ROFL at this being Cottons home. The bloke has been here for like 6 years and if he got a nba contract would leave in a heartbeat, same goes if he got a top level euro one so calm down with the 'this is home' crap.

"...any other criteria capable of establishing a significant link between the player and the country, for the national team of which he wishes to play. "

This "other criteria" can in Nigeria's case be that the player wants to play for Nigeria.

So Dredrick irving played 1 year of semi pro ball in Melbourne where in that year kyrie was born. Should Kyrie be allowed to play for australia? He can if he wants apparantly...

@Perthworld

Without these rules, we could have seen countries like Qatar having a whole team of naturalized players. Believe me, I would like to have no restrictions, but it is a double-edged sword for the rest of the world. Without these handicaps, we could have played JC and Blatche together in the 2015 Asia Cup. I would choose fairness over a strong Philippine team. I also can't imagine how strong other countries' teams would be without restrictions.

FIBA is fair and there is still a good chance for Thybulle and maybe cotton to be granted local status. After all, it is handled on a case-to-case basis. There are plenty of exceptions throughout history.

Also, the rules are different for Olympic basketball. Olympic basketball is more lax in a way where as long as a player has blood, then he is a local.

For example, the Asian games are under the IOC. In the 2018 edition, we played 4 players as locals who in FIBA competition would have been recognized as naturalized players.

Christian Standhardinger
Stanley Pringle
Maverick Ahanmisi
Jordan Clarkson

@Orbit

Based on his Wikipedia, he has dual citizenship and was born in Australia, so he could have represented Australia for sure, but since he has already played for the US in senior competitions, he is now ineligible. 

I'm not sure how citizenship works in there, but I'm looking at this piece.

https://www.gotocourt.com.au/immigration/children-born-in-Australia/

It seems like Kyrie could not have been an Aussie either, but if he did have citizenship before the age of 16, then he is eligible.

"a. If the player obtains the legal nationality of the main territory before reaching the age of sixteen (16) years, he will be eligible to represent the dependent territory without restriction (see article 3-21). "

Better the current 'rules' than the situation where most teams fielded mainly American-born players who were ‘local by choice rather than by birth’, and FIBA needed a quota rule to make sure that each team fielded at least one local-born on the court at all times.

Cotton came and won us a championship, and he graciously made the point that the championship and his time in Perth would always be "special."

But then he fell in love. He chose to stay in Perth because of that, and has made it his home, and started raising a family here.
Basketball may be his job, but Perth is now his home. Even his mum said that.
And yes, he has repeatedly turned down more lucrative offers to play elsewhere. Granted, Perth have done their level best to pay him the max they can, and I've no doubt that for some of those years he's been the highest paid NBL player. Probably only topped by Bogut and initially by Ware's Sydney deal.

There have been other Naturalised Legends, who nevertheless have returned home to the States. JC and Fish spring to mind. But then you have guys like Ricky Grace who have made Australia their home and raised a family. Bruton senior being another obvious example.

Not related to International play so much, but another one I can't understand is Moneke.

He can't seem to get Australian Citizenship to even play in the NBL as a local, despite growing up here, and only leaving to go to College.

Just looked at Moneke's situation and his is very similar to Giannis. I could not understand why Basketball Australia did not coordinate that much with him and the government. 

Well, to be fair, Australia is deep in talent. So I kind of understand why they wouldn't be so all out about him.

FIBA will easily grant him local status because he fits the requirements minus the citizenship. I guess he just wants to represent Nigeria. Effort should go both ways, after all. 

"Cotton has a wife and kid here, and has knocked back NBA offers to remain in Perth."

Bryce himself, from an article published in June:

"Obviously, if an [NBA] team ever wanted me, of course I would go back..."

Stevy I understand that. My point is with the one naturalised as an adult spot FIBA aren't distinguishing between countries who hand out passports to anyone (such as Eastern European nations) to merely fill the spot just because it's there, a practice which shouldn't be allowed. There are many Americans who have been naturalised who have never even stepped foot in the European country they are playing for. This is what needs to be clamped down, instead of scrutinising countries like Australia who only naturalise players after genuine residency. FIBA will always look out for their European members however and it sounds like the Indonesians have already found a way around it anyway.

@Perthworld

The rules are obviously not perfect (e.g., Indonesia loophole). There should be some modifications to these rules. I agree that there should be more strict guidelines for naturalized players as well. They should at least have played in the domestic league of that country or resided there for a year.

We don't want countries like mine, for example, to naturalize Andray Blatche (for the 2014 world cup, was in the Philippines for a limited time) or Indonesia to naturalize Marquis Bolden (dude did not even train yet with the NT of Indonesia or stay there long).

I feel like they have good intentions but the execution is not that great for NPs, especially after reading your comments about the European countries. It would be best if all naturalized players were like Ra Gun-ah (played in the KBL for years), Angelo Kouame (developed in the Philippines), Gavin Edwards (played in the B league) and etc. 

For the local classification, it is just a very complex situation. Unlike FIFA, where blood plays a huge role in players' eligibility, it is a different story for FIBA. Imagine Indonesia getting away with taking 2 Senegalese before they were 16. These two kids are Indonesian in FIBA's eyes. Theoretically, a rich country like Qatar could just find the best 15-year prospects the world could offer and issue them passports. In FIBA's eyes, they would be locals.

Coming from someone who would benefit a lot if restrictions were a bit more lax (Jalen Green, Jordan Clarkson, Remy Martin and etc would be locals). FIBA should find a way to balance the rules a bit. To a certain extent, they are aware of this, which is why it is handled on a case-to-case basis, but aside from that being a long process, it is just too uncertain when countries like Indonesia could theoretically spam the 16-year old loophole.

If FIBA sees these kids as Indonesian, then I see no reason why Cotton, who has a family there, played there for the last 5 years, etc., should not enjoy these same benefits. 

Maybe FIBA should just emulate FIFA or something, though I am not a huge football fan or even watch it that much. So, I also do not know what kind of classification issues FIFA has.

If someone holds a passport in two places, I'm okay with then having the choice to the extent that it isn’t a scenario of "person gets passport to play for nation" in that dodgy style.

Thybulle had the passport already from his time living here - so fair play. Is he “Aussie”? No- but I still think it’s ok. Lots of people in Australia would have lived overseas for x amount of years growing up and would hold a foreign passport - not an uncommon concept for Australia.

Cotton lives here for x amount of years, now residing here - becomes naturalised Aussie in the NBL - again, I wouldn’t take issue with that scenario playing out for getting a national team spot.

Person never sets foot in country and randomly gets a passport in order to play basketball for that nation? Dodgy and takes the piss out of the nation tbh.

@KET

Agree KET, as much as I loved having Andray Blatche in the World Cup in 2014, it was just unfair and sketchy. It would be a different story if he stayed in the Philippines for a year or played for the PBA, but what happened back then was that he got his passport and played for the World Cup immediately.

At the very least, we recently changed with our NP, despite the fact that he has no Filipino blood in him; he is completely developed here (learned basketball in the Philippines), having lived here for the last 5 years, and so on. In fact, we even have a good case for him being a local (waiting for Fiba's decision).

My question is, however, why didn't Thybulle and Cotton play together? The Olympics are under the IOC, not FIBA. Hypothetically speaking, if we somehow qualified for the Olympics, we would be able to have the same setup as the last Asian games in 2018 (4 NPs in FIBA's eyes but are recognized as locals under the IOC).

Tobey playing for Slovenia as a NP is a perfectly normal situation. Slovenia did not violate any rules and, unlike many other NPs, Tobey may not have been in Slovenia as much, but he does have a rich history in Europe and has played with some of his teammates before the OQT. If Slovenia really wanted the best possible talent, it would be someone else. 

To clarify, it is not like Slovenia is relying on him like how other NPs would for other teams. Mike is a solid piece but not a focal point. He may not be a big name, but he fits like a glove, can hold on his own and does well in his role. 

@517

There is too much money being made for basketball in the Olympics for it to be scrapped. They literally made the schedules more accommodating for the American market, which resulted in teams having to adjust (eg. less rest, bad schedules, playing the Gold Medal Match first rather than the Bronze Medal game).

I have read reports (can't find/forgot the source, it was from a European site) of FIBA wanting to turn the Olympics into an amateur type similar to football because they want the FIBA World Cup to be the main focus, but obviously, because of the money being made in the Olympics, they can't do so easily. 

For citizenship, you made good points. Right now, however, as long as the current rules are abided by, the best thing to do will be to work with those rules or find loopholes.

Actions taken by NTs around the world in accordance with these NP & Classification rules:

-Using the Naturalized player slot whether that player stayed/played in the country (Ra Gun-ah, Gavin Edwards) or did not even spend a significant time in said country (Blatche in 2014, Marques Bolden). 

-Appealing to FIBA to reconsider the player as a Local (Jordan Clarkson)

https://www.spin.ph/basketball/fiba/chances-of-gilas-getting-jordan-clarkson-for-2023-world-cup-a2244-20210907

-Exploiting the rules (Indonesia naturalizing 2 15 year old Africans who are considered as locals regardless of heritage)

http://en.antaranews.com/news/179782/three-basketball-players-get-indonesian-citizenship

-Finding promising mixed prospects early before the age of 16 to avoid a similar situation to Clarkson.

https://tiebreakertimes.com.ph/tbt/fil-am-swingman-harris-obtains-ph-passport-at-16/204995

Reading into these actions may seem controversial (Not really liking the exploitation of those rules) or not but based on the actions influenced by the current rules, there was no violations being made.

Relaxing or changing these rules are no easy task, though, FIBA looks to find a win-win solution for its 120-member countries. It is truly a complex issue, thus the classification is handled in a case to case basis. There are just too many interests that FIBA has to maneuver with. It is no easy feat. Obviously, there should be some modifications to the rules to be made. 

Correction, linked the wrong article.

-Appealing to FIBA to reconsider the player as a Local (Jordan Clarkson)

https://www.spin.ph/basketball/fiba/is-there-a-chance-for-clarkson-green-to-play-for-gilas-as-local-a791-20200819

"Rules" hahaha, good one.

This will be, unless thoroughly defined (which it never will be) something that will always be murky and almost debatable/have no concrete solution.

Philippines/Japan etc will almost always have claim to an American athlete, who's father is African-American, but has a mother who has some ties to being "from" the motherland. In many cases - these athletes are USA born and raised, but quickly figured out that they have 0% chance of being good enough to play professionally "at home", have minimal chance to become imports in leagues that matter (Europe, Australia) so then "embrace" their Asian-ness. For the Philippines, Gabe Norwood and the likes - all the Americans with Filipino mothers. Get to play as "locals" despite spending their entire high school and college basketball careers in the USA.

Then you get the anomaly, Clarkson, Jalen Green who also have no real link to "being" Filipino other than having a mother who is from there. Because these guys can actually hoop and make a seismic difference to their team's overrall placing - then it gets murky, should they be allowed to play etc.

Before all this, the Philippines had guys that had very, very doubtful Filipino lineage (Asi Taulava clearly Samoan lol, good ol' Michael Penis-Eye, Italian-Australian but now Filipino lol) mocking the system.

In the lower Euro nations, they get imports who have played their 3 seasons and can fill a void at a particular position they need filled - boom, citizen. Ukrainian Jerome Randle comes to mind LOL.

This is all a massive joke - Slovenian Mike Tobey etc; Aussie Matisse.

It's nice to see when they contribute and get your country to win but it makes an absolute mockery of the competition, because it becomes a race to exploit loopholes rather than having players who genuinely contribute to the state of basketball to that country.

Thybulle has played 0 minutes of representative basketball in Australia. No connection to the NBL. Probably doesn't even know anything about Australia the country or its basketball program outside of the Olympics/high level. Same for Tobey, Randle, Clarkson.

It should be (but it won't) that you have to display "a genuine connection to that country, and particuarly in a basketball context".

-have played there in some significant capacity (grass roots, the bulk of your professional career, ie an Australian import who has chosen to live here).

-passports are super vague - they can be given to an individual who isn't a citizen of that country. Imagine that, repping a country in international sport - but not actually being able to be employed in a "real job" in that country, nor be entitled to the same rights as the citizens of that country.

The Philippines openly sell their "Big Man American Slot" like a Help Wanted Ad LOL, and when good ol' Javale McGee didn't want it, Blatche took it.

What a joke.

The whole thing is a piss-take.

Sudanese-Australians. The ones good enough will rep the Boomers. The left-overs, whilst still living here and maintaining legal citizenship, will rep South Sudan for international competition, and still play in Australia as locals.

Moneke - SEM announced this - they had to let him go as he never actually ever had Australian citizenship despite living here all that time.

Even that's a bit of a joke, Aussie Stephens from SEM playing as a local because he was born here, lived here for 29 seconds before spending 99.999 of his life in the US. By the same logic, if Kyrie ever decided to play here, he wouldn't take up an import slot LOL.

You know, Travis. It is pointless to bring up the past about the Philippines when we have obviously changed from before. Not many Filipinos think the same. I never wanted a mercenary import like Blatche or Douthit or Javale. Hell, if we could naturalize Lebron, I would be the first one to condone it.

If you follow what we did recently, our new NP is fully developed in the Philippines. Kouame moved to the Philippines when he was 17/18 and has lived here for the past 5 years, unlike Andray, who did not even stay for a year combined.

About Asi Taulava, he is a man who has played in the Philippines since 1997 and the present. He may not have been an organic product of the Philippines, but that man has lived here and bled for the country. He also fits FIBA's local classification requirements, unlike Clarkson and Green. (http://www.fiba.basketball/downloads/v3_expe/agen/docs/3-ELIGIBILITY-NATIONAL-STATUS-of-%20PLAYERS.pdf ).

For Micheal Penis-eye. I will assume that you meant Marc Pingris. You have no idea what you are talking about, man. That man was abandoned by his French father and slept in the streets of a fish market when he was a kid. Life was hard for him like Manny, and he is an organic product of the Philippines. He was developed here, unlike Asi.

Clarkson and Green, under our laws, are Filipinos. It is written in our constitution that these men are Filipinos. Who are you to say that they don’t have a link in my country? Sure, I am okay with them not being able to represent the Philippines in FIBA, but there is more to life than basketball. Whether they play for our national team or not, they are Filipinos. They may not have developed and lived that much here, but we are all supporting them and wishing them the best.

Like I always said from above, there should be modifications being made. We don’t want loopholes, we don’t want countries to naturalize NBA players (Blatche, Bolden) and immediately represent that country. There should be changes. As much as possible, it would be best if all NPs were like Ra Gun-ah (played for the KBL for years), Gavin Edwards (played in the B league for years), Angelo Kouame (developed in the Philippines), or hopefully, Bryce Cotton. Mike Tobey’s situation is more of a gray area.

*Condemn it

Common sense has to prevail.

With respect (I'm Filipino-Australian), the country is known for having women who shack up with American, particularly soldiers (hello Angeles City).

Why should an American star player, just because his father knocked up a Filipino woman, and said player played all his basketball in the United States - then all of a sudden rep the Philippines in international play? That's not really in the spirit of competition is it?

I mean Michael Pennisi. He and his brother, David, affectionaly known to us here as the Penis-Eyes, were both bench players in the NBL. Both born and raised in Australia where they played recreationally/semi professionally.

Michael wasn't quite good enough to get/hold a gig - lo and behold, he surfaced in the PBA as apparently a "local" player as his mum was somehow part Filipina. Sure, a 6'10, chubby 130 kg guy who definitely looks Italian, but is now claiming to be Filipino LOL.

There would be a sh*t tonne of half Black-half, Filipino players on Planet Earth, you get to keep the Gabe Norwoods, the Joe Devances, the Bobby Ray Parks in the PBA, and have them as the backbone of your national team - fair enough, since most of them bolt from their poor NCAA "career" riding the bench, then spend their adult life "dominating" the mighty PBA, that's fine.

But the guys that can hoop, like Green and Clarkson - you want them too LOL.

The National Team would need to be re-named then to Team Black American Guys, Who Love Them Some Karaoke Sangin' Lumpia Eating Women Squad.

Too long, easier to just say, you can't have the Halfies who stayed to ball in America because they're actually good.

Sorry, but when did I ever say that I wanted Clarkson and Green as locals? Wasn't I consistent that there should be better rules? Didn’t I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.

You are speaking as if all of our players are black. As a quote-unquote Filipino yourself, then you should be more familiar with the differences between the current NT and the past. Besides, aren’t the best prospects in the world likely to end up going to the US for HS and college? Globalization is the norm now. All of the best prospects, whether that guy is from Korea (Hyangjung Lee) or whatever (Rui Hachimura, Petrusev and etc), will train in the US and play there to develop. Luka is a product of Liga ACB, Giannis is a product of the NBA and so on.

There is nothing that we can do as long as the rules stay the same. Indonesia can always naturalize Africans before they are 16. It is unfair, but it is what it is. There is not much we can do unless FIBA changes the rules.

Globalisation isn't necessarily the norm, only in the countries who

-traditionally, and probably forever will be crap at basketball (ie all of FIBA Asia, less Australia, and sometimes New Zealand) and thus have no challenging pathways for anyone who has a career in the sport.

For Australia, the Americas that can hoop, the Europe teams that can hoop - a lot of development is done at the junior level, or in their respective domestic leagues where decent basketball is played.

Ingles, Mills, Delly, Exum, may all have play/played in the NBA, but all have loooong history of playing in Australia's junior association system, its state tournaments, and in some cases, the NBL.

That's why it's a bit of a kick in the face when the countries striving so hard not to suck, all of a sudden want to claim Clarkson, Green all because of the probably ethnicity of 1 of their 2 parents...

Even your Kouame example is a bit dodgy - you say it's more than just basketball but cite an example of Tab and the Philippine Basketball heads, transparently head hunting a 6'10 African for the sole purpose of grooming him to possibly be the stand-in centre for future Philippine National Teams.

How about just playing the genuine players you have and accepting your ethnicity and population make up just isn't cut out to compete in basketball at a high level...

Could you imagine Australian distance running coaches, scouring the ends of Kenya, to offer a 12 year old a free education, to live in Australia for 10-20 years just so you can race in the Olympics under the Australian banner LOL...

Or an Uzbekistan sprint coach (played by John Candy), traversing through the Bahamas or Jamaica, to recruit 4x super athletic black men, promising them all the good stuff to move to Uzbekistan and eventually race for that country in the 4x 100m LOL...

When people are doing things like that - you know it's a joke.

#871566 you make a great point - I think fans, especially passionate, live your failed hoop dream vicarious types make too much of repping the nation and some type of perceived patrioticism.

I've cited the Sudanese-Australians. They'll hoop for whatever country they feel they'll make the squad in, with the better team (Australia) preferred.

The NBA calibre Canadians I'm sure would have no trouble saying "Oh, Canada, bye" if somehow Team USA wanted them..

And as a local example, in at least 3x of his Rogue Bogues podcast - our favourite sh*t stirring, conspiracy theorist mentions emphatically how close he was to telling Basketball Aust to s*ck a fat one, and that he would just have rather rep'd Croatia if things didn't go his way.

But I guess, hoop heads want that dream that these players genuinely do it for the country etc..

Bet Aussie Matisse becomes 'Merican Matisse if Pop made the call and said, "yo, we really need a role playing, defensive minded wing and I want you".

So tell me, Travis, would you rather have a Blatche situation (developed in the US) or Kouame? Unlike Ra Gun-ah and Gavin Edwards, who played in Korea and Japan for a number of years, Kouame was actually developed here. He may have been scouted, but so? We are not violating any rules. In fact, we developed the man. Doesn't that already fit your personal requirements for a Naturalized Player? It doesn't get any better than that.

If Australia was a third world country, there would not be too many immigrants, no Exums, no Simmons, etc. The reality is that basketball is a global sport. The best skill trainers are Americans, the best coaching philosophies are European, and the most athletic players on most teams are always of African descent or a mix (Simmons), one way or another. 

I respect your view of pureness, but in my opinion, there is nothing pure about this global sport. The best prospects will always go to the best places for development. If the Philippines was the best country to maximize its potential, then most of the world's prospects would be here.

The world's coaches will always learn from one another. Giddey, for example, is from the NBA global academy. Even the way we play right now is from the direction of Tab Baldwin, who is an American that is influenced by European concepts. Hell, Kai is also a good example of this. If he was developed here, he wouldn't be as skilled.

Just because it technically doesn't breach any (loosely defined) rules doesn't mean it isn't cheesy or tacky.

Just put it in perspective - Tab, bless him, has seriously travelled tens of thousand kilometres, with the intent of grooming a pre-teen to get good at basketball to help out the National team. Surely you can see how that's a little tacky?

Sometimes you just have to accept circumstance and how they play in your favour. I grew up in Australia in the 90s when they were clearly underdogs on the World basketball stage.

A mixture of circumstance:

-having a population that is predisposed to being good at the sport (height, enough athleticism, sporting national culture)

-having plenty of opportunity to compete/excel, due to many years of having a super easy pathway to international qualification in the Oceania region

-a healthy enough rivalry with New Zealand to keep each nation's work ethic honest

-a couple of decades of popularity (in spikes), which led to American athletes staying here and having Australian kids.

Them's the breaks, third or first world country or not.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge campaigner AGAINST Aussie Matisse - stuff like that to me is just cheesy. American dude, lived here from age 2-9 on account of his Haitian/American dad being transferred for work. No basketball connection. I applaud the bronze medal and the effort and stuff but would enjoy it more if guys like Cooks (Australian born and raised, American import dad who stayed here, and is known, loved and respected).

That just feels closer to a "morally right" victory for me.

If I were a fan/supporter of Philippine basketball (and if majority of their online fanbase/trolls weren't so bad, I would be)

-I'd firstly accept that they're just not going to be very good, on account of genetic predisposition

-I'd respect the grit and effort of "playing properly". This means playing the guys you have, the ones that are Filipino, without begging for Clarkson/Green, and just hoping for the best, and playing to your strengths.

Before I left, the household names were Caidic, Lim, Lastimosa etc. Sure you're always going to have a super hard time winning basketball games with unathletic guards, and 6-3, 6-5 post players but at least it's honest and somewhat admirable.

Also, for what it's worth - the way that the game is played now, guys of that era may actually stand a chance of pulling the odd upset or two against some of the non-medal teams...

Re: Giddey - I loathe the over stating of the Global Academy LOL.

Dude would have played from 0-16, 17 in his local junior association, well before he joined the "academy".

Not to mention both his parents hooped, and his dad, if you were lucky enough to have seen him play, was basically the original Point Forward. Like Luka before Luka, sort of.

Sorry about the Giddey take. I don't know him that well. Anyway, let me explain.

Yes, it is a little bit tacky, but if teams are going to use the NP slot, at least the dude’s situation is better than a mercenary import like Blatche's. If you are gonna have a naturalized player anyways, wouldn't Kouame over qualify? Cotton already qualifies, so does Ra Gun-ah and Gavin, unlike mercenary imports.

Unfortunately, Travis, we just can’t stick to the past. Actually, since you are part Filipino, I am sure that you are aware that the Philippines was once a respectable world team and the number 1 Asian powerhouse. The downfall started when the PBA was founded in 1975 and continued for years of mismanagement of the NT, not talent.

We need a different direction, Travis. You probably have a good idea or two about how bad the PBA is for the Philippines. Imagine only giving 10 days to practice for the 2019 World Cup. That is the kind of incompetency that we have here.

If we want to see a competitive Philippine team, we just can’t settle and continue to reject modernity. We need a NP, we need our prospects to be developed elsewhere, we badly need a coach like Tab. The fact that we have overachieved so far with a non-pro team against Korea and Serbia shows that we needed this change, Travis. Our 6’3 guys need to play in their proper position and so on.

If we continue to be stubborn (10-day practices, obscene coaching, midget guards, etc.), then expect the Philippines to continue to lose badly against top-tier teams (2019 world cup). 

I'm not sure how old you are Sir.

When Philippines were competitive (and it was only ever in Asia, not the World)

-Their was a core group (Fernandez, Caidic et al). So they had familiarity, and, this could be my nostalgia kicking in - they were all sound basketball players skill-wise, good mix of complementary skills, good team defensive schemes, which could compensate for their lack of athleticism and height.

-The key point though is that nations who are bult for basketball (ie tall) discovered the sport. Australia's NBL only began in 1979, New Zealand 3 years later.

These are 2 nations that take pride in sporting achievement - and have the ethnic make up to do well in a sport that requires height.

The Asian countries that rival Philippines began taking basketball more seriously, creating more competition.

As the household names retired - the Philippines ushered in new "stars" but, as it has always tried to be, it also tried to be a "mini NBA" in its style of play. Over-dribbling, iso moves, all trying to be the next Iverson etc. This is fine for athletic black guys, but not so effective for sub 6 foot unathletic (by world standards) try hards. Terrance fcking Romeo types.

I followed PBA a little bit in the 90s when I moved to Australia - the quality of play deteriorated quite noticeably. Then it had the Fil-Sham saga where it would just take random NCAA (US, not Philippines) benchies and try to build teams around them, just because these guys "looked" like they could play being black and over 6'7". Whilst they could dominate shorter Filipino post players, skillwise they weren't actually very good. Definitely no Ramon Fernandez.

It's not really to do do with any mis-management, or red-tape, they're just not very good.

And now, along with other countries that aren't any good - they've taken to these Citizenship wars, where they're hunting African kids and trying to get them to naturalise before the age of 16. It's pretty sad.

I would personally focus on the standard of the local league, THEN maybe see if a long time PBA import (who has actually based himself in the Philippines, like say a Norman Black) can squeeze in as naturalised player if needed.

With guys like Sotto and Fajardo, the height can be found if you look hard enough - they just now have to learn how to play at world level.

I have no issue with someone like Thybulle who grew up as a citizen of two countries having the choice of which of those to represent. It came about naturally. His parents didn't live here to ensure he was eligible to play for Australia. His sister was born here too.

I think the rules, for the most part are fine. There's always going to be some decisions that go against you but that's how it goes.

It would be nice to have both Cotton and Tisse available and both should be included in final squads for any selection process going forward, but if Rjybiis fit and available he should get the spot unless we're all of a sudden super short of ball handlers. Cotton should be leading our "NBL Boomers" for the foreseeable future

If Thybulle "growing up" (age 2 to 9) here is OK, it opens up so many other loopholes.

Shaq, Reggie, to a lesser extent, Steve Kerr had dads who had military/international background.

Take a country, who is knocking on the door of being one of the elites;

son of military guy, who is doubtful to be selected for the Australian team, deflects to the country where he is all but guaranteed a spot.

"Yeah errr, I did play prep, high school, AAU and college ball in the United States, correct. But in the second and third grade, pops was stationed in *INSERT COUNTRY* and they looked like a good bunch of guys, and had a roster spot for me so GO *INSERT TEAM!* I have always kept my *INSERT TEAM* passport and feel like I am *INSERT TEAM nationality*. I will even eat *INSERT TEAM delicacy* if I have to prove it.

Wouldn't be any less tacky, than if say a Kobe-lite, who wasn't Team USA standard, decided to play for Italy.

Just researched

Kobe living in Italy, age 6-13 (7 years)
Aussie Matisse living in Australia, age 2-9 (7 years).

Prego

Kobe Italia

So instead of hunting all these > 6'9" Senegal/Nigerians; all Indonesia, Philippines, Qatar and all the other garbage teams really need to do is:

-find anyone Under 15, who may amount to anything in the world of basketball;
-sponsor their parent to "work" in their country for circa 7 years

If said under 15, turns up half decent, they're automatically able to play as a naturalised person for your national team.

Prego.

Not sure how long but Shaq spent time in a German army base.

Imagine a Shaq-lite, who's not quite good enough to make Team USA, but suddenly declares "Gutentag homeboys, pass me the rock, my Sergeant Daddy-O was stationed in Dusseldorf when I was in 3rd to 6th grade".

Nice job, sir! You made very good points. You wrote a very insightful post about the PBA era in the Philippines, particularly the 80s and 90s. 

Before the PBA was founded, however, the Philippines was a competitive/decent world team. Not trying to hype them or anything, but our results before the PBA showed this.

Also, thank you for highlighting the way the Philippines tries to emulate the NBA. I will try to make a brief compilation on why mismanagement was the cause of the downfall of the Philippines after the PBA was founded.

-3 conferences (insufficient time for NT)

-Import Height limitation

-Ban of foreign coaches unless certain requirements are met

-National federation vs. PBA

-Rejecting modernity

-Players must be 22 years old to be drafted (Before recent changes)

-Emulating the American style of basketball

This is just a short list; I could go into greater detail and list a hundred more. Let me give you a short detailed example. Imagine if a big corporation in the NBL, let's say, Westfarmers, owned 5 NBL teams. Imagine if Westfarmers would not let their best players play for the boomers. That's how bad the basketball scene is in the Philippines. You really can't expect that much when so much incompetency, BS and mismanagement goes through in here.

Also, LOL at Aussie Matisse having a "choice".

If Pop called him and said, "we hereby promise you a roster spot, no ifs or buts", you're dreaming if you think he would have politely declined and said, "no wucking forries Goorj mate, I'm still ridin with youse".

Highly unlikely.

Yes, I'm sure Jerome Randle also felt compelled to rep Ukraine over the USA because of his burning desire to represent the people of Ukraine and not because he had 0% chance of being selected by Team USA....

I already said that there should be changes in the rules. Technically, Indonesia and Qatar could just naturalize the best 15-year-olds in the world and all 12 players in their respective teams would be locals.

For the 2025 Asia Cup, Indonesia could field two Africans (local) plus a NP.

Sorry I was poking fun and referring to Cram and the situation with Aussie Matisse.

Further to that point, it's "illegitimacy", at least to me, is compounded by the fact that Australia is a country that's knocking on that upper echelon, if they're not they're already. So the loophole "exploitation" to me, seems "worse".

Back to my Kobe example. Imagine if Joe Bryant, played in Spain (instead of Italy), had a child "Not Kobe". Not Kobe is a solid NBA starter, but not a star. He's highly unlikely to be selected for the 2008 Team USA Redeem Team.

But because he lived in Spain for 7 years, while Joe was hoopin - he qualifies to play for them and does so. Plays a pivotal role - and almost topples USA in the process.

Not quite the Aussie Matisse story but you get my drift.

Matisse did have a choice though. This has nothing to do with his likelihood to play for the US. Because of his dual status he had the choice to play for Australia as well as his other country..

Do I think Matisse would have chosen Australia if the US team rep was on the table? Probably not, but he has the choice to wait wait and see whether it could at a later time.

Sponsoring parents of talented junior kids? Haha good luck with that.

You're exuding a lot of Jim Carrey, "so you're saying there's a chance" in there.

He "probably" would not have selected to play for Australia if he was a shoe-in for Team USA, LOL. Let's call it out. If he was one of the top 2-3 wing players that Team USA could select, and was flat out, personally told by Pop that they extend an invite to training camp, there is ZERO probability he tells Goorj he might suit up in Green/Gold. Or that he "would rather wait and see."

Players play where they know they can get a gig. Same thing with Deng Acouth, or any Sudanese-Australian with the situation flipped.

If you're upper tier and Boomers likely, you play for them if chosen (Reath, Maker, etc). If you're lower tier and have zero chance of being selected, you tell the South Sudan coach you are ready to run (Acouth).

Sorry if that breaks the "proud to represent our country" narrative...


It doesn't get said nearly enough - a huge chunk of this Rose Gold belongs to Greg Thybulle's employer who sponsored him, and his then wife + Aussie Matisse, to live and work in Australia from 1999-2006.

Chuck Kuany Kuany in there as well - both him and Acuoth can get starter's minutes playing for Sth Sudan in Afrobasket.

Neither, at this stage, would be selected for the Boomers, even if we went to our D squad.

So they get "best of both worlds", play in the NBL as a local, and 2x chances to play FIBA basketball.

To me, using half your noggin, you can see pretty easily the genuine naturalisation and those taking the p!ss.

Aussie Leroy Loggins - Born in the USA, left in his early 20s to play professional in Australia. Genuinely lived here and continues to do so, 40 years from when he first arrived. Has lived here longer than the US. Played all his professional basketball here - is seen as the 1B, to Australia's "1A" GOAT.

Croatian Dontaye Draper - 8 or so seasons, in about as many countries. in '15, declared his allegiance to Croatia who were lacking backcourt talent. Played for them internationally, barely made a difference. Probably couldn't pick out Croatia on a world map.

New Zealander Casey Frank - Born in the USA, bounced aroudn a little before settling into New Zealand at 24rs old; played for their national team, was a mainstay in the Australia/NZ basketball scene; named to the NZ NBL's Top 40 players of all time.

Filipino Andray Blatche - Born and raised in the USA, playing high school to pros there; in his mid 20s, when he became an NBA journeyman he began playing as an import in Asia, at 28 was approached by the Philippines to 'naturalise' as Javale McGee was no longer interested. Does not live in the Philippines - travels to whereever the team is training and for the relevant tournaments. Also punches like an 11 year old girl.

Chinese Taipei Quincy Davis Born in the USA; high school and college US ball, then import in lower level leagues, settled in Chinese Taipei at age 30; demanded cash and other entitlments to naturalise, and confirmation that he did not need to serve in the Armed Forces (too tall).

You get the point - all the p!ss take ones should just be dismissed but it would never happen, so as a spectator you just have to live with it, but also accept when it's happening.

Aussie Matisse, as much as we all enjoy seeing Australia medal - is an absolute p!ss take.

Adam Banks had to play for District 5. Because. Them's the rules.

His Dad didn't rent a granny flat with a Hawk District address, just so he could keep playing for them and avoid moving to Gordon Bombay's losing team....LOL

If you know, you know.

" Aussie Matisse, as much as we all enjoy seeing Australia medal - is an absolute p!ss take."

It's not really though - he’s a Boomer because he happens to have a passport not the other way around.

He didn’t get a passport to join the Boomers.

I wouldn’t call that “piss take” level. Stretching the spirit of it all? Sure.

Is he considered Australian? Not really, but he didn’t “loophole” the rules to join the Boomers, he always had the capacity to do so since he was 10 years old or whatever.

For example:
If i say this on the phone to the tournament line:

""Yo necesito documentacion por registrar del basketbol tournamente del FIBA y olympiad,
Yo juego basketbol con Mexico, por favor...
Yo juego basketbol profesionalimente, me capitan natural del squad con Mexico.
Que, yo arribo a los facilitares practicar a 07:30 sarpado
Yo tiene el canistre de la agua, y la calculadora por lo scorandro del jugo.
Gracias, yo hablar con tu, y los squad basketbol, a la lineao de los layups.""

Tr.
""I need documentation to register fiba basketball tournamente and olympiad,
I play basketball with Mexico, please...
I play basketball professionally, I captain the squad with Mexico.
That, I arrive at the facilitates practice at 07:30 sarpado
I have the canistre of the water, and the calculator for the scorandro of the juice.
Thank you, I talk to you, and the squad basketball, to the line of the layups.""

... Do you think i could play for mexico instead of states then? ...
Just for a counter-example, it gets alot more seemingly realistic that a player would get renationalized, if they were trying to speak the language of that nation.
I never thought about "this player is sudanese, except he speaks australian. should the player be on team sudan or team australia?" ... or ... "this player is american, except he speaks spanish or english. should the player be on team states or team mexico?"
I guess that then it just turns to "decyphre a sample of the speaker's language, & guess the speaker's nationality based on that"

Passports are issued for 10 years.

He probably renewed it, taking him to 19 yrs, at which point (2016), it was pretty evident that the Australian basketball program was emerging and a possibility.

Would have also been pretty reasonable to assess the probability of you being ever good enough to be selected for Team USA..

So, you simply renew your passport again, thus enabling you to play in '20.

I don't think Cotton was ever a "must pick" but am glad FIBA made the call that it was either Cotton or Thybulle - because as I said, I think Thybulle’s situation mocks the rules.

It’s easy to nod in agreement because we’re in Australia.

But guaranteed if Slovenia had beaten the Boomers, there’d be a crowd mocking Tobey’s “naturalisation”.

Hate to break it to you Travis, but Thybulle got his citizenship when he lived here as a kid. His situation was merely one of us picking an Australian citizen who has pretty keen to play for us.

You can have pride in being from more than one country. Shocking I know.

Travis 2nd Best, what's with the irrelevant boring speculation on when a person renewed his passport?

You couldn’t possibly know when he renews it and it wouldn’t matter when, the point is the eligibility not the administrative effort of paying the government for a new passport.

Such an odd argument to make lol.

He was eligible to play for the Boomers because he happened to be eligible since he was a child - that’s the key point here.

Not through deciding he wanted to play Olympic basketball and try to jimmy a way into eligibility for a country he never had anything to do with.

Wow someone so stupid to miss the sarcasm of me comparing Waza to Luka Doncic lol!

"Keen to play for us" lol yes, probably as keen as Aussie Deng Acuoth was to play for South Sudan, a country he left as a 6 year old - when it was evident he had 0% chance of playing for Australia!

Aussie Matisse was the same age I was when I became an Australian “citizen”.

As a minor do you know what it entailed? Nothing - your parents have to attend the ceremony, and you by default, being under their care, get listed on the certificate as their dependent lol.

I guarantee you he woul fail the actual citizenship test that's required now, for adults.

Guarantee.

But that’s ok, since he’s a defensive menace and was instrumental in acquiring the elusive rose gold..

How Strayan. Aussie Matisse for Prime Minister!

"He "probably" would not have selected to play for Australia if he was a shoe-in for Team USA, LOL. Let's call it out. If he was one of the top 2-3 wing players that Team USA could select, and was flat out, personally told by Pop that they extend an invite to training camp, there is ZERO probability he tells Goorj he might suit up in Green/Gold. Or that he "would rather wait and see."

You've made up a completely fictional situation. Thybulle isn't a top tier wing and thus wasn't invited. He's someone who may have had a chance to play for the US at some point down the track but instead CHOSE to play for Australia. Those are facts, not your fan fiction.

The simple fact is dual citizens enjoy some benefits and opportunities that those with only one citizenship don't and that can be seen in all kinds of fields. Don't be jealous.

My contention is to do with all the assertion that he "chose" to play for the Boomers or that he is somehow “committed” to the program.

Seems like a nice enough guy and obviously contributed big time but you can't dispute facts

-he never consciously decided to associate himself with Australia, the way a naturalised import would have

-he has no ties to Australia, or moreso, Australian basketball besides repping the Boomers

-if presented an opportunity to play for Team USA, he would have done so.

-his eligibility to represent the country is a technicality and pretty sketchy. If another instrumental player, from a rival nation pulled it off, and it affected Australia’s result, we would be crying foul.

"I guarantee you he woul fail the actual citizenship test that's required now, for adults."

You can't guarantee a hypothetical.

If you gave the test to Americans they’d pass it with flying colours in any event - a lot of questions are about democracy and federalism, something that’s not entirely unique to Australia.

The Australian “oriented” questions, most Australians would struggle with anyway.

So, what’s your point in all this?

That Matisse isn’t culturally Aussie?

We know this, but we also know he’s eligible because he grew up here for a period, not because he decided to play for a country he never had anything to do with.

Which is the main point of difference in all this.

I love how because he can hoop people have taken the liberty to translate:

"My Australian passport is still up to date; my citizenship is still active; I'll eat vegemite if I have to"

To mean

“I am proud to be a citizen of the Commonwealth of Australia. Despite leaving there in 2006 at age 7, I have continued to maintain a vested interest in its affairs. In fact, I travel there regularly and hold a genuine affinity for its people and culture.”

Mans really said my citizenship is still active like it’s a Blockbuster membership that he’s never had to use but is glad to know it’s still valid if he ever wants to stay in and have a DVD night lol.

Get the fck out of here lol.

"My contention is to do with all the assertion that he "chose" to play for the Boomers"

As I explained, he absolutely did choose to play for Australia rather than wait on a future possibility to rep the US. Given at 21 he was judged one of the top 10 defensive players in the NBA last season that was absol a possible down the track

No one going to wonder why he may have renewed his passport despite having no family here and seemingly no time spent travelling here outside of basketball commitments?

Cram you seem hell bent that he "chose' to play for Australia rather than hedge his bet on one day being chosen to play for USA.

Do you also believe that Deng Acuoth 'chose’ to play for South Sudan rather than hedge his bet on one day being chosen to play for Australia.

Dominic to Brian: “you can drink any beer you want as long as it’s a Corona" type choice there..

Your 6th man, best defender has not set foot in the country he reps, since John Howard was Prime Minister - and probably couldn't name the Prime Ministers since.

That sorta takes some credibility of any medal for me...

Not saying Loggins, Fish or Grace or heck even the Aussies we have could display a grasp on current events but shit at least they lived here at the time of playing..lol

Casey Frank satisfied all the NZ citizenship requirements due to the length of time he worked and stayed in NZ and to this day he still works and stays in NZ and gives back to NZ basketball.
Why should he not have the opportunity to represent his adopted country if he has never represented his country of birth and legitimately fulfils the selection criteria?
The 1x naturalised spot allows for people who weren't blessed with being born in the country they love and have chosen to actually call home the opportunity to represent them proudly on the world stage.

Yes there are examples where it has been a bit of a farce but there are also many that haven’t hence why it exists to this day.

Think you mistook my point.

I was painting a picture - Loggins and Frank are genuine; with Draper-ic; Blatche-Santos and Quency Li taking the piss.

Kobe lived in Italy the same length of time as Thybulle in Australia!

In what you could argue are more pivotal years.

If Kobe's dad had bothered with citizenship, and Kobe wasn’t quite good enough to play for the US, and Italy needed that athleticism to get them past their perennial 4th placed finishes...

Just because someone qualified doesn’t mean it’s morally sound lol

I'm Australian citizen though!I’ll eat vegemite if I have to...

"
If Kobe's dad had bothered with citizenship, and Kobe wasn't quite good enough to play for the US, and Italy needed that athleticism to get them past their perennial 4th placed finishes..."

Oh good more dan fiction. Next one add some dragons.