I'd have to watch again to see whether Landale got screwed over within the context of this game

My impression was the refs called every soft foul they could find- in contrast to a typical game where plenty go uncalled- and Landale was caught in the crossfire by SEM driving at him, slight contact and whistle

Probably gamesmanship by Vickerman and hoping for the result Perth got in game 2- less fouls called on them

Is 50+ fouls in a game a good result? In my opinion the game was over-officiated. In a finals game the refs should realise there is going to be additional contact and let the game go.

I wonder if these were the same refs behind the 27 fouls called on United (but only 15 on Sydney) in game 3 last year

Could be a sub plot underlying Vickerman comments

Did the refs influence the result is that what Dean is saying?

Maybe give credit where it's due, SEM had a plan to take it at Landale that worked and turned up to play.

Don't support either team. Reckon there is some whinging going on.

Dean is deflecting from his continual underachievement.

Is 50+ fouls in a game a good result? In my opinion the game was over-officiated. In a finals game the refs should realise there is going to be additional contact and let the game go.

Aslong as they're consistent and calling things reasonably, that’s what we want.

Don’t want inconsistency or letting everything go. Also don’t want over officiating

Today's game illustrated an idiosincracy of basketball

We had a situation where the best player on the court could only play a third of the game, because he committed 5 actions that were deemed illegal. But none of them were deemed intentional, unsportsmanlike, excessively physical, fraudulent (eg Flopping/Diving) and none of them involved abusing an official or disputing a decision.

Is there any equivalent in any other sport? Not that I’m aware of.

Eg: In netball there’s no limit on the number of "contact" violations. Soccer and rugby have sin bins or yellow/red cards but those are infringements that involve elements going beyond the standard penalties in those sports. They’re more equivalent to basketball’s USF. In AFL you can commit 10 free kicks and remain in the game, or even knock somebody out.

Not that I’m suggesting any alternative, but it does seem an unusual element of basketball that can occasionally result in people being a bit unlucky - eg the best player from Game 1 and best player on the championship favourite barely plays in Game 2, without doing a whole lot wrong. Just some soft contact including some 50/50’s that went against him. It’s a unique element of basketball and perhaps bizarre to outsiders that this can happen.

idiosyncrasy*

Vickerman knows he'll likely be fired if they lose on Tuesday night.

" It's a unique element of basketball and perhaps bizarre to outsiders that this can happen. "

It’s a good element.

If Landale gets fouled out that’s Landales fault for not adjusting.

Melbourne let themselves down, they stuffed it and deserved to lose.

If by good you mean necessary evil in the wider context of the sport, perhaps

But is not something to celebrate. If I only got to watch Cotton, Creek or Harvey for 13 minutes because some very soft 50/50 calls went against them, I wouldn't be impressed as a neutral supporter

Not commenting on this game, but personally I would like to see the personal foul limit raised. Or maybe changed to something like 3 fouls per half

Good on you Dean - he made some good points.
Most Of Landale's fouls were ridiculous calls - yet Wetzell can get away with throwing elbows around.
GO UNITED - Jock will be one angry man on Tuesday

'Jock will be one angry man on Tuesday'

Will probably foul out in 10min then.

Here's some timestamps

649 1st
447 1st
559 2nd

Now I've had a chance to re watch some of this, wow, yes this was much worse than I first realised. (Today I watched much of the game on delay and 1.5x, now I've watched the replays at normal speed)

Vickerman 100% has a fair grievance

Landale's first 3 fouls

1. Jumps up to defend a Wetzell drive, Wetzell elbows him in the face before Landale makes contact with Wetzell on the arm

Correct call would've been offensive foul on Wetzell.

2. Loose ball rebound foul, not much in it.

Landale and Wetzell got tangled up when trying to box each other out. Landale won the rebound.

This is a perfect example of over officiating. Two big men competing fairly for a rebound, got a little tangled but a good aerial contest as Landale got the rebound.

The more times I watch the replay, the more I'm convinced Wetzell flopped and played for a foul. Not much obvious contact yet Wetzell jumps sideways flailing his arm.

Correct decision would've been play on.

3. My oh my. Go watch this one. Clear offensive foul on Wetzell. Just barrels right into Landale.

Correct call- offensive foul on Wetzell.

Incidentally, when searching through for Landale's fouls, I randomly stumbled across another one involving Wetzell. 507, 3rd. Got away with a hook on Peatling, then spun to the hoop where the refs found a foul on Peatling as he contested Wetzell's layup.

That's 3 offensive fouls he got away with, that resulted in fouls on United bigs.

Yanni Wetzell should be buying those refs a very expensive bottle of Scotch.

My eyes aren't closed mate, I defended the refs on here, until I had a chance to watch the replay

Neutral fans should be furious. Finals time, Sunday afternoon, sit down on your couch and get to watch Marquee Aussies.... and watch one of them get reffed off the court. Pretty disappointing.

Think LV needs to go ref a few games ... seeing as how he's such an expert on replays lol

Game was over officiated for sure and Wetzrll got away with very obvious elbows on a few occasions, but then they also
missed plenty the other way too
Only thing you want is consistent calls both ways,( few less both ways would have given the game a better flow
But Landale did foul, no question and he didn’t adjust , both coaches told the players the refs were calling everything "neither team really adjusted" but when it’s a do it die situation, the refs have to make sure it doesn’t get out of hand, I think that’s why so many fouls were called.
SEM came to play, United didn’t … reverse of the first game .
So the third should be a good one if they both have the same mindset …. Bring it on !!!!!

I wonder if Landale will have anything to say about this?

There's been comparisons of Landale and Bogut lately, you know if this was Bogut there'd be some comments and a fine coming his way!

"I don't understand why they changed the two referees in the middle of the series. It was a totally different game to the other night, are we meant to adjust to the referees?"

An anon post but who's quotation? His own or Vickerman's? If it's Vickerman's statement then he has just relinquished any claims to any international coaching.

Yes, you do need to adjust to the officiating.

A true story:
I was a ref at a BQ under 16's junior reps game (boys). It was at the time when we (refs) were told to call hands fouls (in particular). The gun player from the visiting team had 4 1st-half fouls.

He approached me and asked (respectfully) why I had been calling him for those fouls. I explained about this new interp on hands-fouls, he thanked me, then rejoined his team.

He played the whole of the 2nd half without another foul. He was 14 or 15 years old. After the game I congratulated him on adjusting his game and he thanked me for my explanation. Not saying I was right or not (in the calls I made) but he wasn't going to change me, so he changed what he was doing.

Every-one won (except the home team!).

Great post RobT


I expect United to win tomorrow and easily....but give South East Melbourne their due they played a great game in game 2.

Landale + 10 yesterday, one of only 3 United players with + (McDaniel + 11 and Peatling + 1)

What are Landale's +/- this season?

LV I didn't see your time stamp for Moore's BS moving screen call or Sykes charge on Ili...or did they not suit your narrative?
You went from gracious in defeat to a salty loser in 24hrs.

[LV I didn't see your time stamp for Moore's BS moving screen call or Sykes charge on Ili...or did they not suit your narrative?
You went from gracious in defeat to a salty loser in 24hrs.]

Are you even reading my posts LOL

I've consistently talked up SEM on this forum for months.

They're a bloody good team and absolutely deserved to win.

I haven't even seen half the game at normal speed- watched most of the first qtr on my phone and half the game at 1.5x. I went looking for the Landale fouls (using play by play data) cos Vickerman rarely refers to individual plays

My only observations have been 1 refs called way too many soft fouls BOTH WAYS and 2. After reviewing Landale fouls, Vickerman is 100% correct Landale got several bad calls and Wetzell got a nice free ride on those plays

I was illustrating that Vickerman was spot on with his complaints about Landale's fouls

That's called making a detailed, on topic contribution

Given United's 2020 season was ended by reffing in a 2 point loss, and they missed the opportunity to play a team in the GF that they'd beaten twice in a row comfortably, it's laughable to suggest "bad calls work in United's favour most times". It literally cost them a good chance at a championship last year

Some are more important than others.

If United had the advantage in "most" games this season it wouldn't have made up for a lost GF place. United is good enough to make the semi finals every year, regardless of regular season reffing, and it's those games that decide the entire season.

A true story:
I was a ref at a BQ under 16's junior reps game (boys). It was at the time when we (refs) were told to call hands fouls (in particular). The gun player from the visiting team had 4 1st-half fouls.

He approached me and asked (respectfully) why I had been calling him for those fouls. I explained about this new interp on hands-fouls, he thanked me, then rejoined his team.

He played the whole of the 2nd half without another foul. He was 14 or 15 years old. After the game I congratulated him on adjusting his game and he thanked me for my explanation. Not saying I was right or not (in the calls I made) but he wasn't going to change me, so he changed what he was doing.

But like you LV, Vickerman is just looking at calls that affected his own side without opening his other eye to see the calls that favoured him.

If Mitchell came out in his presser and said TeRangi, Sykes and Moore had these crap calls...would you be time stamping those?

Most of us on here are ridiculously one eyed but are at least able to admit it.

[That 15 year old showed more poise and maturity than Landale did.]

I get that Landale has developed bit of a reputation for making comments that cross the line between confidence and arrogance, but, watching the fouls I was amazed at how much restraint Landale showed.

He was unhappy after the 5th but that was probably pent up frustration from the entire game.

In particular his 3rd foul halfway through the 2nd quarter, when Wetzel barged right through him, he just walked right off the court. Knowing the call was wrong, know he'd have to sit until mid/late 3rd quarter, just walked off. That was impressive restraint if anything

[ Knowing the call was wrong, know he'd have to sit until mid/late 3rd quarter, just walked off. ]

And knowing his first 3 fouls had all been incorrect

And actually, he didn't even glance at the refs after Wetzell elbowed him in the face om his first foul of the game.

"I get that Landale has developed bit of a reputation for making comments that cross the line between confidence and arrogance, but, watching the fouls I was amazed at how much restraint Landale showed.

He was unhappy after the 5th but that was probably pent up frustration from the entire game.

In particular his 3rd foul halfway through the 2nd quarter, when Wetzel barged right through him, he just walked right off the court. Knowing the call was wrong, know he'd have to sit until mid/late 3rd quarter, just walked off. That was impressive restraint if anything"

Or, the calls were right and there is nothing to gripe about when you play with no discipline.

And Landale's 4th foul was rubbish - should have been a block on Creek - who flopped in the no-charge circle

I get that players, coaches and fans want every call to go their way, me too. We wouldn't be any of those if we didn't! In fact, most of us have dabbled at being all 3 sometime in the past, the present and even in our dreams.

Truth is that there are 3 sides (actually, 4 sides, in this case) to every story!

And the Ili "block" on Sykes should have been a no call at a minimum.

Bigs do get the short end of the stick when it comes to fouls - near the basket is where the physicality and clashes are.

When guards foul out it's because they’re doing silly fouls and lazy defence, when bigs foul out it is often because they are contesting.

It’s not unusual for big guys to complain about uncalled physicality or being over officiated in the NBA. Screwed if you do screwed if you don’t, it’s a hard thing for basketball to actually get right.

It’s easy to say stay vertical yada yada but there’s just a lot more to it. We haven’t figured it out yet.

Its been going on for 30 years, refs taking finals series the distance, nothing new. Used to happen every Tigers V Magic series.

They don't want any sweeps.