So he won't play at the Olympics?

Brings to end the career of one of greatest ever basketball exports. He knew it was time and he's left the game before his standard of play really dropped.

As for the Boomers it's a definite loss. There are things Bogut can do that our other options can't.

Alright let's hear it - all hoopers born in or anywhere near 1965-1985 all adore the Grey Mamba and could never really put anyone above him for nostalgic reasons. His "flat and droopy" breakfast ad was ICONIC, as are his signature kicks.

But once and for all, lay all bias, sentimental stuff aside.

Male Aussie Hoopers, who do you rank as Australia's 1, 2, 3. Please no stupid Yank "Mt Rushmore", we in Straya, let's just say best 3 hoopers in terms of

-achievements in international play, all leagues they played in
-their influence on the game in this country

I'm going

1. Andrew Bogut
2. Andrew Gaze
3. Patty Mills

Congratulations on a tremendous career. Best Australian basketballer ever? Have to be between him and LJ surely?

I said male, it's hard enough to compare generations but gender as well just makes it complicated.

Never been a massive fan, but had a great career nonetheless and it will be a shame he doesn't get one more chance to chase that elusive medal in Tokyo.

Tough to pick a top 3 so I'll put Bogut, Gaze, Longley and Lauren Jackson together with no particular order. They all excelled in different areas, Longley achieving the 3 NBA Rings, Bogut being one of the best Aussies to compete at the highest level in the NBA and internationally, Gaze for what he's done in Australia not to mention an NBA ring himself, and Lauren Jackson for putting Womens basketball on the map in Australia and her success in the NBA and internationally.

@D.Joyce87

Sorry mate, looks like I posted a couple of seconds after you. I have no drama at all with your list. I might put Patty at the top, just because he is such a legend of a human being.

I see all the announcements and kind of feel funny with the "one of" disclaimers LOL.

It's like his off court persona affects people's willingness to give him the credit he rightfully deserves for what he achieved as a player.

Like, almost as if Drewy and Balapat will always be ranked ahead of him for being "seemingly" nicer/less controversial humans LOL.

I'm not asking you to rank them on Mr Congeniality folks, we talkin bout practice LOL, I mean hoopin.

"Congratulations on a tremendous career. Best Australian basketballer ever? Have to be between him and LJ surely?"


You can't judge men and women's basketball in the same category, you just cant. Lauren Jackson dominated in women's basketball but wouldn't have even made it to the end of an NBL bench if she were playing against men. You cant put someone who could not possibly compete in the same competitions above all the ones who did and could. Greatest female player? Sure. But they were playing in competitions with vastly different standards.

As for top 3 Australian players, I'd probably prefer to go deeper than that and give more credit. But I also will upset people by not putting Gaze in all that high. He was a great player, but if we're talking about comparative competitions and actually WINNING things, Gaze played only meaningful minutes in the NBL, kind of was a passenger in the NBA and only won two NBL championships despite having often the best line up in the league beside him.

1) Andrew Bogut (Ben Simmons will surpass him here)
2) Patty Mills
3) Joe Ingles
4) Andrew Gaze
5) Aron Baynes

Longley v Bogut

NBA Games 567 to 706 - Bogut
PPG 7.2 to 9.6 - Bogut
RPG 4.9 to 8.7 - Bogut
APG 1.5 to 2.2 - Bogut
Rings 3 to 1 - Longley
All Rookie 0 to 1 - Bogut
All Defense 0 to 1 - Bogut
All NBA 0 to 1 - Bogut
Lead league in Blocks 0 to 1 - Bogut

How you gon say Longley > Bogut LOL

@ME

You are dead on re: men vs vomen. It's a really silly comparison.

Respect and acknowledge all your points re: Gaze though respectfully disagree.

I don't think we can judge his "only 2 chips" with the loaded Copeland/Bradtke years, and then sort of ignore his crazy output in the bush league years as well. Them be video game stats he was posting LOL.

If those games had been televised, or be on highlight reels, maybe we could truly appreciate his greatness and just what 80s era Drewy could do.

I feel his NCAA run is also a little overlooked as well, as well as even sniffing the NBA in a generation where international players were still pretty much taboo-ish.

And I too am guilty of rating him so high due to his persona LOL.

But he has to be way up there.

And I think we can refrain from the "Simmons will surpass Bogut" narrative. I'm sure he will - but let's wait for that to happen in due time without robbing Bogut of credit for what he already DID.

Farewell to a legend of Australian bball

A bit of unfinished business, and a disappointment that COVID ruined the last chance of this great group- Bogut/Baynes/Ingles/Mills/Delly- who got so, so, so close in 2016 and 2019.

Australia's greatest NBA player, but you do get the feeling Simmons will take that mantle over the next few years.

Given overall impact on Boomers and in the NBA, I've gotta put Bogut ahead of Gaze.

Both champions of course and Drewy a far better bloke!

Stop it with the Longley stuff LOL.

We're comparing individual accolades, not the sliding door moments that led one lucky fella to land in Michael Jordan's team LOL.

If Bill Cartwright was Aussie, would he be "better" than Bogut? LOL.

Being the 1st option of the Bulls timeshare centre spot, wrestling it away from Perdue and Wennington is NOT a greater accolade than being a legitimate No. 1 draft pick, All Rookie, All NBA, All Defense.

Don't hate, appreciate.

Gaze overcame the Wildcats, Bogut didn't.

"Jackson
Longley
Mills
Taylor
Bogut
Simmons {will end up above Mills and maybe also Longley}
Gaze"

Absolute lunacy. 1 on 1 Andrew Gaze would have smoked Lauren Jackson. Playing against eachother on different teams Andrew Gaze would have smoked Lauren Jackson. This is like comparing a social league player to an NBA player - the standard of competition in women's basketball is much, much lower than the standard the guys were playing against, so how you can rank Lauren Jackson as a player higher than these men is beyond me. It's almost as if you people do it to get a warm fuzzy feeling about equality. But there is no equality in sport. Some players are objectively better than others and can play against tougher competition, and is as much as that is true, Lauren Jackson is probably somewhere in the Brendan Teys conversation for best Aussie players.

With the parameters that D. Joyce posted;

"let's just say best 3 hoopers in terms of - achievements in international play, all leagues they played in - their influence on the game in this country"..

I can't leave out David Anderson. I know that he is not a household-talking-point but he has an enourmous number of chips internationally, over a vey long time.

Of course, 1 of those parameters is "best 3 hoopers", only 3. So in your original list, I would (unhappily) relegate Patty to the bench, in this one, for D.A. Only based on actual, basketball achievements.

To Bogues, Congrats on everything, and I, for 1, am eagerly awaiting your change of mind on Tokyo Olympics. You deserve to be there for that 1st medal. Even as a 10 man off the bench, just be there! Go as an AC, your leadership isn't affected by your body's woes!

Mills ahead of Bogut for mine.

I'm unable to provide a subjective opinion on the Mills Vs Gaze questions but they're both ahead of Bogut for full career achievements when international play is included.

He shat on your comment bro by playing significantly more games than Longley, and achieving significantly more in individual accolades.

Only in Straya will you get so much tall poppy that a journeyman who played with Jordan is considered "better" than someone who was

-drafted before Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Danny Granger
-lived up to that pick by being selected All Rookie alongside Paul, Williams, Villanueva, Frye
-led the league in blocked shots
-was recognised as one of the best 10 defenders in the league along with Leonard, Green, Jordan, Allen, Paul, Davis, Duncan, Butler, Wall
-whichever way you slice it, was recognisd as one of the Top 15 players, or 3rd best centre in the league, behind Howard and Stoudamire

but yeah ok, the guy who beat out Will Perdue and Bill Wennington for the token white guy in the middle spot for the Bulls is better.

Don't hate, levitate

Luc Longley was a solid role player for one of the greatest teams of all time. But we cannot pretend that he had nearly as much skill or as many tools as Bogut had. Bogut was more mobile, tougher, better defender, better passer, arguably a draw on shooting, Bogut could play point-center and run a fast break. I mean there isn't too many areas of the game where Luc Longley is even equal to Bogut at.

But having said that much, Longley is slightly underrated by the general public, mainly because they tend to think if you're only a role player, you suck. Longley certainly didn't suck. But he was not as good or as versatile as Andrew Bogut.

Longley didn't suck at all. You don't earn MJ/Pip's/Jackson's respect and trust and keep that gig, and win, if you suck.

But he did what he did "well enough" to keep his job.

There isn't much argument though that many other bit players (Perdue, Wennington, Cartwright) could fill that role and keep the Bulls system ticking.

One more time for the dummies

We are rating Best Australian Basketball with male genitalia only

No. of people who watch, support and care about Men's Basketball = X
No. of people who watch, support and care about Women's Basketball = circa 5% of X

No doubting LJ, but it's not what we're discussing.

Reminds me heaps of ol' mate Shane Heal now all over social media promoting how we 'need to back women's basektball more than ever'.

Well yeah mate, of course you would want it to skyrocket in popularity, your gal's your family's cash cow now LOL.

Where was that passion before your daughter was playing?

I don't disagree Bogut and others have contributed meaningfullyin NBA but discounting Gaze because he only played NBL is not right either.

Gaze is 2nd all time scorer at Olympic Games and while USA have had much better players that don't turn up for every Olympic games, some good NBA players for other countries do.... Gasol, Scola, Ginobili etc, so Gaze is able to hold his own against top quality opposition (offensively atleast)

I don't disagree Bogut and others have contributed meaningfullyin NBA but discounting Gaze because he only played NBL is not right either.

Gaze is 2nd all time scorer at Olympic Games and while USA have had much better players that don't turn up for every Olympic games, some good NBA players for other countries do.... Gasol, Scola, Ginobili etc, so Gaze is able to hold his own against top quality opposition (offensively atleast)

It's more reverse sexism than anything else.

Go on any other sport forums, be it AFL, League, Soccer, Boxing, MMA, Cricket

if they're discussing their sport's male GOAT, I doubt it deviates then all of a sudden the female GOAT is thrown in the discussion.

Anon 170, you forgot to include stats for Seasons played and international games played

Is that Daniel Joyce posting? Sick player.

Well farewell to Bogut. He could have been an NBA all star if he hadn't got hurt. F that guy who undercut him, what a dog move. Bogut was one of the best screeners in the NBA for a while, he knew all the tricks lol.

Gaze was unfortunately ahead of his time, so we can only speculate how he would have done in the NBA. Would have gone alright I reckon if he was in his prime today.

Sadly we can only speculate how good Bogut's career would have been if he hadn't smashed up his arm too. I'll always believe we were denied something pretty special. He still had very good run.
I'd probably have to rank him our #1 on the men's side right now.
Hopefully Simmons stays healthy enough to race past him and pick up a ring or two along the way.

I'd say Simmons would be on the cusp of overtaking Bogut for career achievements if not for international team duty.

Both:
All rookie first team
#1 overall picks
All-NBA Third team

Simmons over Bogut
2 x All Star to 0
Rookie of the Year
All Defensive first team (Bogut made a second team)

Bogut over Simmons:
1 x NBA Championship
3 x Finals appearances
National College Player of the year
Boomers Career
NBA season leader in blocks

Simmons all star appearances >>> Night's career accomplishments

"Gaze was unfortunately ahead of his time, so we can only speculate how he would have done in the NBA. Would have gone alright I reckon if he was in his prime today."

100%. With his analytic friendly play (layups, free throws and 3s) he'd be a good secondary ball handler similar to an Ingles (though without Ingles' defensive ability. With bigger squads and more credit given to international players in this environment he'd certainly have gotten more opportunities. But again, its all just a big what if

I don't think it's too much conjecture to speculate exactly how Gaze would have fared.

The man was killing it for Seton Hall against elite college players, at a time when college basketball meant something, and where future NBA stars played to prepare.

He just, based on the era he played in, didn't get a fair crack. But skill wise it's not in any way far fetched to presume he would have survived had the 80s been partial to international players, or had the NBL to NBA doors been as "real" as they are these days.

I think we also have to put significant weighting to all he did in the NBL in the 80s, as well as the Olympics/FIBA.

As well as the longevity and consistency well beyond his prime years.

Forget the WNBL if that's the case. All players men and women play against each other in one super league. Can't wait to see the superstar Cambage dominate the plebs of the NBL.

What this thread really needs is a soundtrack.

Maybe DJ Liz can drop a remix, I Am Woman, Hear Me Score (No Sammich For You)

if you down with that gender stuff, sing it loud and proud

I Am Strong (Strong)
I am Invincible (Invincible)
I am Woman...hear...me...SCORE

Jason Cadee

Bogut(Longley) was so good he only went to the playoffs once (not even once) in his career before joining the Warriors (Bulls).

Thanks to both, and all of the above.

"Lauren Jackson is the most successful SPORTS person in Australia. Only sexist misogynists will disagree that she is our best basketballer of all time.

Its not even close."


I'm a sexist misogynist then. She's successful, yes. But to say she's our best basketballer of all time is to say you believe she could perform better than other players in the same or higher competitions. No, she absolutely, unequivocally, could not.

"4× WNBL MVP (1999, 2000, 2003, 2004)
4× WNBL Grand Final MVP (2002, 2003, 2006, 2010)
5× WNBL All-Star (1999-2004)
7× WNBA All-Star (2001-2003, 2005–2007, 2009)
3× WNBA MVP (2003, 2007, 2010)
2× WNBA champion (2004, 2010)
3× WNBA scoring champion (2003, 2004, 2007)
WNBA Finals MVP (2010)
WNBA rebounding champion (2007)
WNBA Defensive Player of the Year Award (2007)
7× All-WNBA First Team (2003–2007, 2009, 2010)
All-WNBA Second Team (2008)
2× All-Defensive First Team (2007, 2009)
3× All-Defensive Second Team (2005, 2008, 2010)
3× WNBA Peak Performer (2003, 2004, 2007)
WNBA's All-Decade Team (2006)
WNBA's Top 15 Team (2011)
WNBA Top 20@20 (2016)
Women's Korea Basketball League MVP (2007)
No. 15 retired by Seattle Storm
Australian Basketball Hall of Fame (2019)"

That's an awesome resume but they're all achievements in vastly inferior leagues playing against vastly inferior competition. I don't think anyone would say she isn't an absolute beast in her own right but it's not fair to compare her to the men. It just isn't. It's apples and oranges. She should be respected within her own field for what she did, but not brought out against beings that are more athletic, stronger, taller, quicker and expect to be compared to them. It is an injustice for both parties.

"Robt, but of a difference between a three year dry spell, and a decade of only one playoff appearance, especially for a number one draft pick."

One player rarely makes a team a playoff team. You can't use team success as the only way to discern who is the better player. The reason Luc Longley was on successful teams is part luck, and part because he was very good at a limited number of things. He could be a big body, rebound, play admirable defense, pass, and make a lay up. Simple as that. He was the type of personality that was never going to get too big for his boots or ruffle feathers. They threw him into the game to eat the glass and that's what he did.

But he was a limited player at NBA level. He showed glimmers of potential for more in college but all in all, he was a limited player with a few strengths, and it just so happened those strengths were all the Bulls required of him.

Even in Bogut's role for the Warriors he showed much more versatility than Longley ever had. Bogut is, simply, a more skilled player.

I've changed my mind.

Gaze still the GOAT!

Seems fitting that a Bogut-honouring thread be filled with cross-purpose bickering and trolling.

or as otherwise known in contemporary society as "robust empirical debate" Isaac. :-)

"He could have been an NBA all star if he hadn't got hurt. F that guy who undercut him, what a dog move."

Spot on Cool Howie! That fuckwit who pushed him on the breakaway dunk was Amare Stoudemire. Truly a dog act that limited Bogut's career to elite role player, instead of NBA star.

People forget, but the year he mangled his arm, he was dominating most opponents on both ends. Earlier that season, against the Celtics frontcourt of KG, Perkins and Wallace, which went on to narrowly lose in the NBA finals that year, Bogut put up 25 pts, 14 reb, 5 ast, 2 blk.

Good career in the end, but ultimately it could have been so much more.

Congratulations to Bogut for an amazing career.

This thread is should be able celebrating Bogut's career, not sure why it has to degrade into who is better etc.

Would have been great for him to go to Tokyo, but not to be.

It made for hard reading when Bogut listed how hard it was to just get out of bed in the mornings and the physical and mental anguish it caused.

He made the right decision for his body.

"Inferior why? Because they are women's leagues??"


Have you ever watched womens basketball? Serious question.

Let me put it another way for you - you're making a basketball team from Australia across the entirety of time to play a game against the Monstars and if you lose, everyone gets abducted and enslaved.

You have 12 positions to fill... how many women are you sending there?

Yeah, thoughts so.

No, wait, you'll shoehorn Lauren Jackson in because she has "accolades" as a 6'5 female centre.... lol give me a break.

I hope my little analogy helped get my point across.

Well this isn't an "either/or" thing. When weighing up someone's achievements you have to look at the competition they played against, and for Lauren Jackson, the competition was much weaker than anything Gaze, Mills or Simmons compete against, and that has to be taken into account.

It's kind of like you have someone dominating SEABL for 20 years, how much do their awards matter when you're comparing them to NBA players?

Lauren Jackson would not have achieved what any of the guys on the list did in the NBL or NBA so holding her above them is frankly, ridiculous and laughable.

Comparing male and female basketball players is inherently unfair, and that's why they have separate competitions and that's why they should be listed separately when talking about the greats. Anything else is simply out of touch with objective reality.

^ Thank you. There's an estimated 1000 male tennis players who would beat Serena Williams. We have to all live in hotel reality.

Respect greatness though, because greatness is a mental attribute, and absolutely Lauren Jackson has it. But men and women are different, and have to be treated as such

All I wanted to know was if people rated Bogut's career greater, lesser, or equal to that of one Sir Gaze.

And what I got was a lot of "I'm every woman, it's all in meeee"

*now you sing* woah, woah woah

I mean Lola Bunny played against the Monstars...

Jarell Martin replaces Bogut at Kings -

26 years old, played 3 years with Memphis Grillzies. Looks like a great pick up

Link

"everything is sexist waaah!"

Longleys is true tho

Did Bogut mentioned anything about his stake in the Kings?

I first took notice of Bogut during the 2003 U19s. Suddenly supremely dominant. I'd never heard of him before that tournament. Within a year he was the Boomers starting centre.

From not making the Victoria U16 team, to being a Boomers starting centre 4 years later, is just mind-boggling. It shows his character, how he responds to adversity, his commitment to development. Followed him in Utah too, starting with Majerus completely shackling him, then taking the top honour in college hoops a year later. I felt like he was a player who excelled when given more responsibility; not necessarily a larger offensive role, but a leadership role.

In Milwaukee, just when he started to prove his worth as a number 1 pick, that injury. Permanent damage to his shooting elbow. He could've easily faded into oblivion after that kind of injury. Instead he uses his ambidexterity to shoot with his other hand. He hones his defensive skills to become one of the best defenders in the world. He becomes the best passing centre in the NBA.

The line earlier in the thread about Bogut only making the playoffs once before going to Golden State? Did they see Milwaukee back then? Did they see G State back then? Bogut was one of the most crucial ingredients in turning that franchise around. He was a culture-changing player for them, especially with the experience and maturity that he had gained by then.

It's really disappointing he won't make a 4th Olympics. It would've been fitting for Mills and Bogut to achieve that together, joining other Boomers greats Gaze, Heal and Vlahov (who else?) in participating in four Olympics.


As for Australia's best basketball player? Bogut is certainly Australia's best ever big man. Simmons is the most talented ever, for sure, the most impressive NBA regular season on paper. But for me it still doesn't make him the best. Mental toughness, consistency, will to win, and performance under pressure are vital attributes for a true champion. It's a tough call, and I might be biased, but that's where Gaze takes my number 1, just edging Bogut. Gaze always found a way to stamp his mark on a game. Always a factor. The Factor. Gaze was certainly limited by NBA teams giving him opportunities, but let's not forget that he also made a clear choice to stay in the NBL.

@Perthworld I think I read somewhere a while back that he had offloaded his stake in the Kings, but a google search gives me absolutely no evidence of that being true.

Going to miss watching the big fella go around.

Bored in the house, in the house bored

if I had to play the Monstars, using only Australian players, with one naturalised allowed, based on their NBA, NBL, other pro league, college, FIBA, Olympic accomplishments I am taking

PG: Simmons, Mills, Delly
SG: Gaze, Loggins
SF: Ingles, Ronaldson
PF: Bradtke, Andersen
C: Bogut, Baynes, Longley

"
PG: Simmons, Mills, Delly
SG: Gaze, Loggins
SF: Ingles, Ronaldson
PF: Bradtke, Andersen
C: Bogut, Baynes, Longley
"


I'd take Vlahov over Ronaldson personally but other than that I'd go to war with that team any day.

Heal or Gaze didn't defend. There's a reason why we never got close to a medal with those teams.

Firstly congrats to Bogut on a great career. I feel sorry that Covid robbed him of a last crack at a medal.

But as he said, when you can't push your kid on a swing without pain, you know its time to start thinking of your future health.

It's almost pointless to try to compare players across different eras, sports and Genders.
Few have dominated their sport as Bradman did.
Margaret Court achieved unparalleled success as a Female Athlete.
Jackson is clearly not a physical match for Bogut, but she did achieve more within her Gender.