American Police need to keep it in their pants or we will never finish the NBA season!

KET - cause killing people is OK but we better finish a basketball season?!?!

Big Country, I don't think KET was disagreeing with that.

After a vigilante killed 2 protestors the police chief responded by saying that if they had have just obeyed the curfew they'd be alive. With comments like this at the highest levels of policing, its easy to see how the whole system is a mess.

As much as I wanna watch basketball, this stuff is bigger.

You could make the argument boycotting the playing of an NBA game likely won't do much but something needs to happen over there and withdrawing their labour is about the only thing NBA players can do.

It was an absolute disgrace what happened to that guy cops over there aren't even interested in trying to disable someone or take them down it's shoot first and ask questions later.

The USA is a basketcase. This pro-gun culture permeates the whole society to the point cops with a racist bent are so scared of being shot they would rather be safe than sorry and shoot first. It's black people copping it more because of the systemic racism there they are more likely to be poor and thus more likely to commit a crime putting then in the literal 'firing line'.

Unfortunately nothing will change in the USA until guns are made illegal and crooked and corrupt organisations with too much political influence like the NRA are dissolved.

Anon, I don't think their decision is led purely by the one incident. And I definitely think that it's more noble than empty and more considered than "virtue signalling". I often wonder if that term is just a political weapon word or is it actually incomprehensible that someone might want to make a personal sacrifice for the sake of others? That an action could only be showing off?

Maybe this case isn't the clear-cut one that makes their best point, but it shouldn't detract from their point.

I imagine the truth in all of this particular case is somewhere in the middle. Someone panicked worrying about what might happen about the warrant, and someone panicked worrying what might happen if that person reached for a gun. As long as the US has the prevalence of guns that they have, many shootings will be murky clouds like this.

Zodiac, I'll play devil's advocate on the shooting itself - let's say they ask for his name as witness or respondent to the unrelated issue they were attending. He doesn't want to provide it because he has an outstanding warrant. One second he's driving with his kids, next second there's a chance he doesn't see them again, so he's conflicted and defaults to the safety of the car and being near his kids. He knows what tends to happen to black dudes around cops. Cops insist and he refuses or tries to walk away to his car hoping it will all go away.

There was a video the other month of a (white) woman stopped for a traffic infringement and abusing the cop who'd stopped her. Her car was unregistered or something. After a while, she'd wound up the window and locked the door, like that would make it all go away. It doesn't all go away... I mention this only as an example of people backing themselves into a corner where their decision tree is seriously pruned. More panicked you are, the harder it is to be in a mental space in real time where you can evaluate the scenario properly.

Anyway, back to the current case - the cops draw the weapon and persist in trying to have him stop. If, as reported, he's revealed to them he has a knife (maybe just FYIed and not as a threat), they don't want to grapple and rather stay behind the gun. By the time he's at the car, the cop can't see what he's reaching for in the car - he could be getting in to be near his kids, he could be planning to drive away and hope they ignore it, he could be putting the knife away, he could be reaching for a gun.

In Australia, they'd almost certainly grapple him. In the US, they should still have grappled him - shooting point blank into someone's back is jaw-dropping. But over there, they assume that there is a gun in every jacket or car and I can't see them working their way out of that mess in a hurry.

This isn't a response to you personally, but what I'd hope to see on Hoops is a discussion where people don't swing immediately to the extremes. Rioters don't discount a social movement. A not-very-clear-cut case doesn't discount the motivation of an NBA strike. A discussion that touches on race shouldn't immediately reference a regular poster yet to post in this thread and reference their employment elsewhere - that's not going to help anything in a hurry. If everyone could be remotely charitable in their interpretation of any posts, that would help.

Well said Isaac.

The problem with going to the guns straight away means its hard to de escalate the situation. And if he does something they see as resistance, the only option left for the cops is to shoot. If they stay with batons, capsicum spray tasers (and the fact they had him outnumbered) they could have taken him down without shooting before he gets to the car.

Just reported the LA Clippers and LA Lakers players have voted on boycotting the rest of the season. Other teams voted to continue.

Firstly, I propose a new "rule": No criticising a profession unless you're willing to do their job!

And yes, I'm sick of the way we only ever hear about black people being shot by police and it is always attributed to "racism"
I looked up the stats (which were a couple of years old) and more white people are shot by police, but we never hear about them.

And no, I can never accept the premise that an acceptable way to "protest" is rioting, looting, and murdering.

I actually have no problem with the Bucks protesting in the way they did. It's their country, their state, so if anybody has a right to "comment" its them. And their method attracts huge attention without harming anybody.

There's also one point that needs to be clarified. There's a lot being made of the fact the victim was shot "SEVEN times", as though the number of bullets represents some greater level of atrocity.

We're conditioned by the Hollywood mythology, that a person gets shot once, flies across the room and drops dead.
But look at the armed forces. Soldiers get shot multiple times, even get blown up, and survive. Many report that in the heat of battle, fuelled with adrenalin, they did not even feel a bullet wound.

That's why police are trained to keep firing, until either their target is down, or until their gun is empty.

I'm not saying whether it was justified, just pointing out that firing 7 shots is itself not unusual.

Boycotting or cancelling the NBA playoffs is not going to stop police brutality nor will it stop racism.

I am all for this. Awesome job by the NBA players.
Basketball is a game, this shit is real life.

History is filled with these types of acts by unified groups highlighting social injustices.

"Firstly, I propose a new "rule": No criticising a profession unless you're willing to do their job!"

What absolute bollocks. They aren't press-ganged into that line of work, it was a choice. Everyone should be expected to not only follow the code of ethics of whatever line of work they are in, but also the law itself, and be open for criticism - ESPECIALLY in positions of elevated responsibility or authority. Like the vast majority of jobs out there, there is a % of people filling them that should not be there for whatever reason, and policing more so than most needs systems in place to weed out those "bad apples".

Firstly, I propose a new "rule": No criticising a profession unless you're willing to do their job!

[Stan Van Gundy] It would be wrong to think that today's NBA, WNBA and MLB boycotts were about one shooting in one city.

All old mate had to do was obey police directions and he would've been sweet. That seems to be lost in the story. Don't do dumb shit, live another day. Easy.

What a pathetic contribution by D2. By your own logic, you should be refraining from commenting on the mechanics of a shooting until you have been in a few gunfights yourself.

Lakers and Clippers have apparently voted to boycott the playoffs. Other teams supposedly elected to proceed with postponed format. I imagine there could be more discussion to come.

When travel opens up, if you get the chance, I highly recommend a visit to the Civil Rights museum in Tennessee.

Helpful post Isaac

Incidentally last night I was reading The Book of Basketball (great book!) and the story of the 1964 All star game, where the players threatened to boycott the game 2 HOURS before tipoff! Russell, Wilt, Baylor, Oscar, West- the all time greats, before a televised game. They were demanding a pension plan and 15 minutes before tip off, they got it. The game went ahead.

My question for the Bucks is- what exactly are you asking for? They need a specific goal like players had in 1964. What's the closest USA equivalent of a Royal Commission? A full scale federal investigation? How does that interact with each US state?

I do find it all a little vague. You have one isolated incident - out of millions of daily interactions between individuals and police - and we have a boycott. What's the end game? Will you boycott next month when a new shooting goes viral? OK, if we need to make changes in society, good! Let's have a discussion based on quality research and reliable info, and then make those changes! But if you're just "not happy" with this event or you're just "raising awareness"- is that it? What's your action point? What's the specific outcome you're after?

D2.0, the shit you type on here is mostly ignorant and disgusting.
Use your voice for good. They stopped playing? Get over yourself. We all deal with it together.

Next time you're thinking about making a comment on this issue, think for at least 10 seconds before typing your response and then delete that response because I guarantee it is riddled with racial undertones.

Quotes from the Bucks statement:

"Calling for justice for Jacob Blake" and

“the officers to be held accountable” a

"Wisconsin state legislators to reconvene and address....police brutality, accountability, Criminal justice reform”.

“Vote on November 3rd”

They are asking for something somewhat specific- but it's not something that can be done today or tomorrow- criminal justice reform is a long process.

If the whole season is called off, the media will raise the issue into a higher profile for two or three days, maybe even ahead of COVID, the election...but then after 2 or 3 days it'll just revert to a 2nd tier media issue - an ongoing discussion but below those other issues I just mentioned- and then those players will have damaged their own brands, their sport and have to wait months before getting a regular spot in the public spotlight when they return to the court. Not a wise move IMO- for them or for BLM.

'463 people were killed by cops in America for the month of May 2020.'

What type of bullshit obscure stat is that?

"You have one isolated incident "

Except it isn't isolated. It is a common occurrence.

Disproportionate occurrence as well.

'White people, who account for 60 percent of the American population, made up 45 percent of those shot and killed by police. Black people make up 13 percent of the population but account for 23 percent of those shot and killed by police. Hispanic people, who account for about 18 percent of the population, make up 16 percent of the people killed. For 9 percent of people, The Post was unable to determine their race.'

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/protests-spread-over-police-shootings-police-promised-reforms-every-year-they-still-shoot-nearly-1000-people/2020/06/08/5c204f0c-a67c-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html

Marcus Smart: ""We tried the peaceful way, kneeling, we tried to protest, we tried to come out here and get together and play this game and tried to get our voice across, but it's not working. So, obviously, something has to be done"

FFS, please don't anyone use the phrase "we tried the peaceful way".

Kneeling wasn't the peaceful way?

My question for the Bucks is- what exactly are you asking for?

Bucks players are in locker room attempting to reach the attorney general of Wisconsin, Josh Kaul, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @Stadium. Magic players are leaving the arena soon -- not accepting the Bucks' forfeit.

"Why this incident in particular? I guess it's the latest straw on the camel's back, and in the Bucks' state."


Also that one of their own players was involved in an incident that could easily have gone the same way.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/sterling-brown-milwaukee-police-racial-injustice

"Kneeling wasn't the peaceful way?"
Sorry, I should've highlighted the crucial part: "we tried the peaceful way... but it's not working."

Sends an ominous message in an issue that has already sparked a lot of violence and rioting.

"Sends an ominous message in an issue that has already sparked a lot of violence and rioting."

Yeah I think it was clumsy rather than a call to violence. As in, we tried these other things, now maybe shutting down the NBA..

I think they need to be very careful about what they say.

"African Americans also disproportionately commit crimes and particularly violent crimes"

source or just a feeling?

"was clumsy rather than a call to violence"

Agreed, but it's these kinds of clumsy statements that those with riotous proclivities will interpet as calls to action.

"Law enforcement in America is a white supremacist organisation. Fuck you."

Is this a serious statement? Or you are saying there are extreme elements within police departments?

When even sensible people like you engage in hyperbolic tribalism, it's a worry.

Wonder how many posters on here have an Australian flag, V8 Car or a Southern Cross tattoo as their Facebook/Instagram/Twitter Photo!

Is this a serious statement? Or you are saying there are extreme elements within police departments?

I would argue the very first police force that meets the definition of a modern, 24-hour, uniformed, law-enforcement-oriented force is actually the Charleston City Watch and Guard, which is formed in the 1790s to manage a mobile slave population that works outside the home of their owners. And the minority white population at that time was terrified about the possibility of slave uprisings, revolts, etc.

So then there's just one other factor for the origins of U.S. policing, which is colonialism. The U.S. had police forces like the Texas Rangers, whose primary objective was to drive out Native American and Spanish and Mexican landowners to make way for white settlement in the South and Southwest.

An investigation published in 2019 by the Center for Investigative Reporting found that hundreds of active-duty and retired law enforcement officers are members of Confederate-sympathizing, anti-Islam, or anti-government militia groups on Facebook. Within these private groups, members often are openly racist. Police officers have also been linked to groups like the Oath Keepers and Three Percenters, who believe in defending white Americans from "enslavement" and are actively hostile to immigrants.

The Plain View Project, a database of public Facebook comments made by nearly 2,900 current and former police officers in eight cities, suggested that nearly 1 in 5 of the current officers identified in the study made public posts or comments that appear “to endorse violence, racism and bigotry,”

In the 1990s, a federal judge found that there was a “neo-Nazi, white supremacist gang” of Los Angeles police deputies - self-styled “the Vikings” – that existed with the knowledge of police department officials. In 2015 and 2016, the San Francisco police department attempted to fire at least 17 officers after investigations revealed they were sending racist text messages.

The officer charged with George Floyd’s murder, Derek Chauvin, was the subject of at least 17 misconduct complaints prior to Floyd’s death, almost all of which resulted in no discipline and the rest of which concluded with only a letter placed in his file.

Minneapolis Lieutenant Bob Kroll, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, was previously a named defendant in a discrimination lawsuit brought by four black Minneapolis police officers against the Minneapolis Police Department for discrimination. In their complaint, the plaintiffs allege that the Lieutenant openly wore a “White Power badge” on his a motorcycle jacket.

The Washington Post, the Root, and others have recently written about a District of Columbia police officer who was seen in D.C. Superior Court wearing a t-shirt with a white supremacist symbol and the grim reaper holding a rifle and police badge.

In 2014, three police officers of a 13-member all-white police department were discovered to be members of a local chapter of the Ku Klux Klan in Fruitland Park, Florida. These men were discovered because they were trying to recruit other officers to join them. In 2015, a lieutenant in the Anniston County Police Department in Alabama was fired for being a member of the League of the South, a southern hate group. (Another lieutenant was also a member but retired once his affiliation became publicized.) The membership was no secret to the department when the fired lieutenant was first hired, and in fact was “the subject of friendly jokes.” It was only once a story about his membership was highlighted by the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Hatewatch that he was eventually fired.

In 2015, the Clatskanie Chief of Police in Oregon resigned after being accused of calling black people “monkeys” in response to a lawsuit alleging racial discrimination. A Pennsylvania police chief used the “n” word in an email that suggested blacks in a particular neighborhood were illiterate. A police chief in New Jersey sent an email calling for racial profiling of blacks in white neighborhood. The Howard County Sheriff in Maryland often referred to black people as “n — — -rs” and called a Jewish county executive a “Jew-boy.” A 2017 report about the Chicago Police Department by the U.S. Department of Justice found that dozens of officers, including supervisors, made racist remarks and disparaging comments about African Americans, Muslims, and other minority groups.

White nationalists pervade law enforcement. There is a long history of the military, police and other authorities supporting, protecting or even being members of white supremacy groups. But it’s not just history. It was revealed last week that a black man in Michigan came upon KKK materials and Confederate flags in plain view while being shown a home for sale – the home of a police officer on the force for more than 20 years who shot and killed a black man in 2009 without consequence.

a Virginia police officer – assigned to a high school – who was revealed to be a longtime white nationalist and served as a recruiter for Identity Evropa, one of the groups behind the Charlottesville hate rallies and violence. He was not shy about his cover. In chat messages, he “discussed ways to downplay appearances of racism, while still promoting white nationalism”.

#275 - 'African Americans also disproportionately commit crimes and particularly violent crimes, possibly a linkage?'

Ever heard about systemic problems? The system is failing. Recognise and understand that.

I imagine there will be many players in the bubble that are following the masses. But there will be many who know a sibling, a relative, a friend, a family friend, be unjustly assaulted by police. Its one thing to attack a systemic issue indirectly, its another when you're protesting something you know.

And for the Bucks to lead this - both given it is their community in the centre of this, and given Sterling Brown's own saga with Milwaukee police (https://www.si.com/nba/2019/12/04/sterling-brown-bucks-police-brutality-case), I admire the decision they've made here.

I hope the NBA does let the Bucks forfeit the game, rather than just postpone all the Game 5s - to show this meant something. That the Bucks' players knew the risks and decided to go with it, because that is what they stood for. I've seen plenty of Tommie Smith and John Carlos photos around as a comparative, I don't think you can compare these. Yet, it does resonate.

Firstly, I propose a new "rule": No criticising a profession unless you're willing to do their job!

Firstly, this is ridiculous, and I'm really not sure how you think that enters a nuanced debate.

Do you have to physically do the job or just say you will? When are you suiting for the Wildcats?

'I imagine there will be many players in the bubble that are following the masses.'

The majority of the players are African American. They are fighting for the lives of future generations. You don't know their perspective. Listen to the masses. A whole lot of people are living in fear because of the way they look.

If they decide this is the best course of action, who are you to say people are just 'following the masses'. White people have followed the masses their entire life. Thats why these problems exist. Challenge your fragile little world.

Next time you're thinking about making a comment on this issue, think for at least 10 seconds before typing your response and then delete that response because I guarantee it is riddled with racial undertones.

D2.0 and yet you have no perspective. Astonishing.

Kobe, labelling all US law enforcement as a white supremacist organisation based on some cases is like arguing that the US fire department is a terrorist organisation because some arsonists are attracted to the profession. This tribal narrative doesn't help. It only creates a reason for police to identify even more with these extreme elements. And it encourages good cops to quit instead of enacting change within their departments. This narrative of police generally being an identifiable enemy isn't going to end well.

Surely this is a police vetting and training issue. Other factors, such as a US gun culture and gang culture, that primes police to be more likely to react with excessive force, looks far more difficult to change.

If you're not willing to be D2.0, are you unable to criticise them?

I'd be a cop before I was the US president - I think that'd be a miserable job. And statistically more dangerous? Four presidents of the 44 have been assassinated. Two others have been injured in assassination attempts. Supposedly 30ish attempts have been made collectively.

I see no issue in offering criticism of anyone. The reader may discount criticism if they feel it doesn't understand the challenges, though I'd like to think I avoid any particular extremes of a debate like this.

Deeply sad events.

There will always be bad cops everywhere.

The question you want to ask is, how many black cops shoot blacks/whites when the alleged is unarmed?

Another statement that needs to be investigated in all incidents is was a crime committed in the first place? If you commit no crime you should not have to interact with the police.

"If you commit no crime you should not have to interact with the police."

Not according to plenty of videos floating around the internet of black people in the USA coming into close contact with the police merely because someone calls to complain they're "suspicious". Frequently they're given no choice but to "interact" and if they should happen to take the smallest umbrage at being forced into the interaction it ends up with an arrest being made

[Stan Van Gundy] NBA players protesting racial injustice seems to have motivated many Twitter followers to take an interest in human rights in China. I am sure those who use China to criticize NBA players are working tirelessly and giving generously to further the cause of human rights in China.

I agree with D2.0's comments

Hopefully something can be done about police brutalitino.

More blacks kill blacks than anything else in the world, police included, but when police gets highly strung up based on colour then it's a problem that needs to be eradicated quickly.

Having said that not all police in America are racists thugs.

NBA should protest about the racism that blacks get in China. McDonald's in China refuses to serve blacks.

I think we need to have a reasonable separation of the NBA and the players her.

The players are mostly blacks, many of whom grew up experiencing the kind of racism that they still perceive exists happens in society and at the hands of the police. I respect their right to speak up however they see fit, and bring attention to a justice issue on their minds.

The NBA, on the other hand, is not unlike most other major corporations these days. Do they care about human rights, social justice and the like? Not at all.

Well, it's more correct to say they care, to the extent they think it helps their brand and won't interfere with their bottom line. And not a fraction more than that.

I'd be a cop