who put this up?? why would you put this up here. embarassing for the club. especially mentioning meshke.

Who do you think put it up??

Hi Cortez,

I wrote this press release and posted it (with Isaac's aid). Which part do you find offensive or in your poor choice of words 'embarrasing for the club'? The club is quite proud of our coaching staff for 2004/2005, especially Paul who is coming back to coach at our club after a year at the AIS.

I look forward to other clubs posting their coaching staffs (some already have which is terrific)along with some info on their coaches backgrounds etc. As with all posts on this site if you don't like them, dont read them; or as the bottom of the press release states if you want more info, drop me an email. I look forward to a detailed email of your concerns in my inbox.

Regards

Liam

Liam well done for promoting your coaches and sticking up for your club. Coaches deserve more recognition for their hard work. It can be tough because we can't please everyone. Cortex...it's time to take a nap!

Well if Paul is not coming back from the AIS until February, who's coaching till then?

Mesecke??? Third club of coaching now isn't it?? Why does he move around so much??? Interesting I feels!!!

Maybe he was given an oppurtunity to coach at AIS, which was a great oppurtunity, then got home sick, or found it wasnt to his liking, or whatever, and decided to come home.

Why do you people assume to know so much about a person, without actually knowing bugger all??

Maybe we should start questioning why you have to spend a Friday night on the internet questioning what other people so, probably while sipping your weak orange cordial, and waiting for your mummy to stop ironing your jammies.

But still got a position at AIS didnt he.

As for the rest of your post, what the hell does that have to do with his coaching ability? Don't spread useless rumors.

HI Jirachi,

Thanks for your post.

Everyone is entitles to an opinion, you are no different. My opinion is quite the contrary to yours but I guess only time will tell which one will prove to be correct.

The coaches you have questioned may be first time Divsion 1 coaches in that particular age group, but they are very experienced coaches in the Sturt system. All of them have worked directly under our most knowledgeable coaches at the club during their apprenticeships eg Scott, Paul, Marcus and myself etc. Some of them too (as you have stated) have been exposed to the SASI program in various forms. We think these 'rookie' coaches have served enough years in Div 1 in lower age groups or in lower divisons, to make a smooth transition to being fine Div 1 coaches in any age group.

Most importantly they have all tasted SUCCESS (in SA and abroad) at some stage in their coaching or playing days(they are winners!), which means they have demonstrated an ability to APPLY the theory they have learnt and get results.

As stated before the club is very proud of our coaching line up. We think we have a great mix of experienced coaches, coupled with 'blooding' a few first time Div 1 coaches (which all clubs have to do at some stage). This will only strengthen our coaching line up for years to come, with more coaches being exposed to a Division 1 standard of coaching.

I appreciate your mature comment Jirachi on this topic and encourage future discussion about our coaching line up at any time.

As for Cortez, I am not sure the English language has invented a word to best describe your blatant mix of slander, disrespect and stupidity.

Regards

Cortez I heard you have post moves that resembles a polar bear on roller skates!

I think that the Sturt girls line-up is inexperienced and i beleive that Sturt still need to answer who will coach the 18's until Paul comes back. He is not definetly coming back yet. (Thats from his mouth by the way.)

Jirachi, would love to know why you are concerned with me coaching next years 16s.

I realise they went to Nationals 2003 as I was also there as assistant. I have also been coaching the core group this season in 16 div2 and doing quite well (Have beaten every team in this league). I know I'm inexperienced at coaching 16 1 level and cant wait to coach against the likes of Paul Arnott and Travis Leaver and other experienced coaches.

I also realise that a good team does not make a good coach and therefore will be out to prove my coaching ability to myself and other coaches. As Liam has stated I have been an apprentice if you will to Flynn at the 2001 U14 Nationals, Rigoni this year with 16 div 1, Clarke during my first year of coaching and at the U14 Nationals 2003 and currently about to go to the U14 Nationals 2004 with Harvey and Clarke.

I realise this is just your opinion and everyone is entitled to that.

i play in u18's and have been coached my mescke before and whilst it is his 3rd club... who really cares? he's one of the best stratagests and strongest coaches ive ever had. sturt U18 girls are lucky to have him!

Jirachi,

I think you are being a little harsh saying that these fine coaches wouldn't get a look in any other year. As I said before, you are entitles to an opinion, but lets see the results they bring before making such damaging remarks on a public forum. Like it or not, those kind of statements can be construed as personal attacks.

I also take exception with some of your comments about how we have released the info for our coaches. Your posts #3781 where you sarcastically put our our release as 'overkill' and your comments in #3895 saying that the press releases were of 'extreme nature' I thought were a bit uncalled for. I think any club that promotes itself shouldn't be 'knocked' for puting in extra effort.

At Sturt we are innovative and like to 'push the boundaries' in all aspects of our club; from training techniques, skill development and in this case marketing and club promotion. With junior sport being so competitve, both attracting kids to the game and keeping them in the sport, I would have thought that kind of behaviour should be more commended than criticized.

I don't have the information regarding the interim U/18 girls coach (I don't select the Girls coaching staff), so I can't post on it unfortunately.

Cheers

What about the rest of the coaches?

Doesanyone have idea who is coaching North's team next year?

Now that we know that Sturt push the boundaries perhaps in future they can get there team nominations for summer/winter seasons and State Champs in on time

Do we have to read Liam's dribble all the time...

No you don't. Just skip over it Like you would change channels. Easy as that!!!!!!!!

just read this thread and im stoked paul rigoni got the 18's job. he is a great coach. he took my skool team (pac), didnt even kno our names and turned us into the best basketball team in pac bball history. he is not only a great coach but a great guy and he really cares bout his players. that team is gonna b awesum with him in charge.

hope ya read this rags ur a great coach, and a great guy, best wishes for the future...

....someone wants more court time next year.

Good Job for Rags, along with lgfuwir, i also played in teh PAC team and he has been one of the most inspirational people i have been involved with in my short time in basketball. Tactically awsome, but not just that, he acts like one of the guys and knows when to be serious or fun. Good Job Buddy!

Neither of us are playing at sturt and its our final year at PAC, so no more court time for us. If u knew the guy you'd know that we aint talking rubbish and that he is the real deal!

libertine im in yr 12 coz i skipped yr 4, i cud not hav planned a beta season, best of my life, beta than any skool or club season. i played my role in the team to the best of my ability and i was happy to, mayb undera diff coach i wdnt hav been. this is no time for smartass comments

libertine im in yr 12 coz i skipped yr 4, i cud not hav planned a beta season, best of my life, beta than any skool or club season. i played my role in the team to the best of my ability and i was happy to, mayb undera diff coach i wdnt hav been. this is no time for smartass comments

I know that, 'kdfha', he IS a quality coach. Just stirring ;) - didn't realise CM had skipped a grade.

Obviously PAC prefer their students spend time in basketball, rather than English classes :)

its the internet...are we supposed to spell and use correct grammar...if so, maybe everyone in the world should take some english classes!

ive been thinkin, im CM, wat r ur initials libertine.....AK?

Ive got a compliment for the Sturt system of rotating coaches. It develops depth, provides the div 2s with quality coaches, the possibility of unearthing some hidden playing talent from div 2, removes the stigma of coaching a 2nd team.

There are some highly experienced and I am sure intelligent basketball people at sturt. Sturt have initially developed and supported this proposal for promotion / relegation. The policy of rotating coaches will no doubt mean that if the promotion / relegation system gets up Sturt will positioned very well to service more than 1 team in div 1 as their coaching staff will be very deep. The establishment of a regional competition means that if promotion / relegation came in the Div 5 of the promotion / relegation league can be filled by many teams from the regional competition. Whereas another club without a regional competition will not be able to nominate as many teams in the promotion/relegation league.

While Sturt are to be aplauded for all they are doing basketball wise clubs should be careful that promotion / relegation does not give them the monopoly of success because of how they are positioning themselves now.

In an economic comparison; Promotion / relegation is like the establishment of a free market. Free markets have to be tightly controlled, otherwise you end up preventing what you are actually trying to encourage (in a free market) and that is a competitive environment in a fair and even system. You end up with monopolies.

While promotion / relegation concept is good, I do think that if promotion / relegation does ever become a reality tight controls should be established. IE a system that means the strong clubs have to somehow acheive an increasing standard or criteria for each additional team nominated at the higher level.

Cheers Jirachi!

I too would like to congratulate Sturt for opening up the inner sanctum of its club and using this forum to communicate useful information, such as that posted above. Clear strategic direction with a purpose and providing substance behind the decisions made. I always find myself left wanting for more information at our club and forever speculating. This inevitably leads to uncertainty and uncertainty leads to rumours and rumours lead to trouble. Our club committee members always work their arzzes off and are a tight knit group. I can't fault their commitment. My problem is, they know what's going on, but I'm not sure anybody else does. Good communication is critical and should reach a wider audience outside of the perimeters of the committee members.

what happened to Justin Schueller coaching the 16 1's for the mavs?

The "Watcher" and "Alf". Who is trying to spread "useless runours"??? Just a question. What runours are you talking about???? Just asked why he moves from three clubs now??

No ill will intended other than a question. Man if this gets up peoples noses then maybe I have been reading the wrong forum???

As for the "weak orange cordial", you should know by now that your mumma makes a very strong cordial after she's had a workout!!!

(Mod: FYI, I removed the offensive reply.)

Nothing to do with anything you've said, obviously looks that way above. Isaac must have gotten rid of the post I was referring to. A post that was just pathetic and uncalled for... hence being removed.

Incognito,

Thank you for pointing out as to why SA basketball will not be moving forward in the near future.

People want to put in controls to stop clubs that are willing to invest time/money and effort into junior basketball because of the fear of somebody else doing better than them. And the ones that miss out are the kids.

The idea behind pro/rel is that the current controls of each club having the right (not opportunity)for a div 1 team need to be changed, so that the increase in competition MAKES club put more effort into junior basketball (rather than buying ABA Championships). Now if you are saying that in pro/rel clubs such as Sturt or North should not be allowed to offer spots to players from other clubs then I agree totally. I have seen before that in this debate the idea of limiting more than 5 players from movnig into a div 1 team at any club be used. I would like to see it move further. The obvious concern is that kids moves from a div 2 team into another clubs second div 1 team. To stop this we simply say that if a player moves from a team that is in div 2. Then for the remainder of that year they are not allowed to play div 1. Then it can be seen that they really are moving for better coaching, not just to play div 1.

Jirachi,

Your points may be valid due to your being unaware of the div 2 coaches working with the first time div 1 coaches.

Well said Big A - great post!

Big,

Running around in circles but its all good. Agree with pro/rel just need to come up with a medium between controls and total performance driven nominations divisions.

I keep saying it; the pro/rel is not that simple. You could end up with the opposite outcome than you were looking for:
- Successful clubs not doing any work to maintain success but still been successful because of what they have done in the past
- Even fewer clubs than those that currently do having monopolies on Div 1 Basketball (BAD FOR COMPETITION)
- Kids having to travel long distances to get a div 1 game
- District basketball teams not representative of local communities and areas

I have come to the conclusion at this point that pro/rel is good, but just make the criteria tougher for each team nominated into a higher division. That way if a club has 2 teams in div 1 they dont get a 3rd in there by virtue of the fact the self perpetuating effect gets the third team in their as opposed to the quality of development.

In terms of offering positions to players from other clubs being stopped. This causes another concern. It removes the right for players to shop around and find the best club / environment for their basketball. Why should a player not be allowed to change clubs just because their current club happens to be the one they started at and they are wanting to change into a division equal or higher than their current division?

Bring in pro/rel with controls mentioned and also allow players to move clubs into any division they can earn the right to play in and I think its all good.

Big, what do you think is the major issue with having pro/rel but as each team from an individual club is nominated in the same division a greater criteria has to placed on them?

Incognito,

Pro/rel does not have clubs nominate team into divisions. The current situation where clubs put teams into divisions is the reason that games have big margins. Who of us is capable of knowing our teams relative strength compared to the copmpetition before games start. IN pro/rel the summer season has teams graded by their result from two years pervious. The top 6 teams then play 5 games and the bottom two teams move down. The teams placed 7 - 12 play 5 games with the top 2 teams moving up and the bottom two moving down. And so on down the line. This is done twice again. From this eight team divisions are created with those teams that finish in the top 8 playing in championsip and the next 8 in div 2 and so on.

I do not undertand the theory as to how a club with a good U/14 team will necessarily have a good U/12 team. If sturt stops doing the work at U/10 and U/12 level then not only will they not have good players in U/12's, but parents in other clubs will not think of moving their in the future because they will not see anything good with the club, and thus they may in fact intime end up not even having a div 1 team. (Which I am in fine with) As a matter of fact have a look at the North U/14 and U/12 boys. By your theory they should be great due to past success, but they are not. Plus, if just having a div 1 spot makes your players better then why is it that more often than not, the club teams that struggle in U/14 still struggle in U/18.

The monopoly that you talk of only occurs because most clubs are more concerned with senior basketball. My feeling is that this is due to them not needing to do work in juniors because they have a 'god given right' to div 1. And if they maintain the status quo then div 2 players from other clubs will come and play div 1 for them. (just look at the current info up in some stadiums)

As to not representing the local area. Div 1 basketball is elite basketball, not social domestic, it is for developing players too the elite level and it needs to be treated as such. And if players are serious about play in div 1, the current situation shows that they aer willing to travel for better coaching. If they aren't that serious then they play for their local club in the division which they qualify.

Finally, I am not suggesting that players not be abllowed to move clubs to receive what they perceive better coaching. Rather I am saying that if they move to a club they don't get to lpay div 1for that season. They still get the 'better coaching' but play in a lower grade. This will be in an even competition and so will need to play at their best to make sure their team wins. They won't need to change into a higher division because they will get good games each week from the pro/rel series finding teams of equal ability to play against each other in the main season.

Finally, my major issue with pro/rel is that clubs will not embrase it and blame it for losing players. But if you look at Melbourne the Dandenong club comes from a poor area and 20 years ago were only a small unsuccessful club and through hard work have built themselves into a national powerhouse.

Can we have the promotion/relegation posts in the thread it belongs to? It is a very interesting topic, but not (directly) related to this thread.

I guess we feel that a coaching staff is more than one person. What is the job of a div 2 coach at your club. The ultimate decision comes down to the coach. But having the rotating coaches means that coaches get to learn from different coaches, not just the less experienced but both.

Big,

1st paragraph:

Love the concept. What about if you had a multiplier based on some criteria which actually decided the final positions.

The multiplier is multiplied against each teams points for w/l/d this multiplier could be based on rules which include number of players that transferred into the club from other clubs throughout the year (causing clubs to think a little bit before taking players in), number of teams at a higher division, number of teams in a division from a particular area of the city eg Nth or Sth, perhaps even the number of sasi / state coaches a club provides (these clubs should be advantaged with more teams in div 1 because they have more resources to service them??) and any other important factors. The points combined with this mulitiplier dictate the top 2 teams moving up and the bottom teams moving down. I know there are issues with this but I think it provides the medium to gain the advantages of pro/rel while ensuring the advantages dont go so far that they become disadvantages. As a player you could say but we have won the right to get in but the multiplier prevented us from moving up a division or forced us to move down. I say that if the multiplier criteria was upfront and teams knew it was because they were already advantaged by having 2, 3 or 4 teams in div 1 for that age group then it would not be so bad.

2nd

"I do not undertand the theory as to how a club with a good U/14 team will necessarily have a good U/12 team. "

Very good point... But I put to you that the clubs with teams with many teams in U16, U18, U20 div 1s will find it easy to attract more players in U12,U14, U16s and they will also have a greater depth of quality, experienced coaches been able to service the U12, U14, U16 teams also more parents will be working in clubs as volunteers because I think volunteers are easier to recruit from your Div 1/2 parents. This is one example of pro/rel creating self perpetuating success.

You are correct the North example does say that you cannot always maintain success because of what your previous age groups have done. I dont think this would be the case if pro/rel existed to the same extent as now.

sorry my last post was for secret, not big.

Incognito,

I not sure that you understand the reason for the pro/rel. The beauty is in the simplicity. The aim of pro/rel is to make clubs re-asses their priorities back towards juniors. Is it a priority at your club. And before you answer this, 1/ does your clubs senior teams make a profit, 2/ do your senior coaches make more money than your JCD, and 3/ are most of your clubs seniors past junior players, who have only played for your club. If you can answer yes to 2 out of 3 you might be able to argue.

District basketball is for the elite. Get all the clubs to have their own domestic compeitition and then we are sweet.

Perhaps if we tried to make this matter objective rather than "I think" we might get closer to the truth.

1. "District basketball is a sport for the elite." Unfortunately elite also means those with the where for all to support their child/children's participation. Children have a host of opportunities to play many sports. By making it elitist, making it difficult to get to the best competition because of pro/rel then these people will be lost to other sports, football, basketball,netball etc.

2. Do we really believe there are enough participants,(players, officals, volunteers) to form domestic competitions for every club or perhaps for evry couple of clubs if they decide to join forces.

3. One of the major concerns with not having pro/rel is that their is not strong competition day in day out. Sturt U14 B were an example. Take some time to have a look at the premiership tables and % points forv against. Particularly in the younger age groups in Div 1 the teams sitting as high as 5 or 6 have %'s as low as 67%. Forget position 8 or 9, based on these percentages the best teams will have a high proportion of blow outs. Look at the Div 2 teams and in these grades, from my knowledge of some of the teams, by promoting these and relegating some Div 1 teams won't make much difference at all for the top teams.

4. Why are these differences so great at the younger age groups and appear less of an issue as you go towrads 16s/18s. I believe it is the timing of when juniors start basketball and may be initially reletively inexperienced v other teams which drops away with time and secondly the different rate of human development. As children get older then these differences become less significant.

Sorry to keep rambling but this matter has been discussed so many times previously. There is in my opinion no overwhelming compelling evidence which supports the pro/rel approach deliverying demonstable benefits to junior basketball in THIS STATE.

Will read your post later on Saw but I agree about District Basketball not been for the Elite.

Community Social Basketball is for a bit of fun and development

District basketball concept is the best basketballers in the district representing their district for the most part and hopefully local business and politics gets behind that. Its not quite an elite standard but is alot better than social basketball.

If we keep this in perspective it would help.

Saw,

Well put I applaud you as to pointing out that I have not put in enough content, but my opinion must differ to yours. If you look at the U/14 boys example, the current group played div 1 last season and won some games. This team now has a good chance of contending for a national championship. I feel that this is a good benefit for this state.

And over summer the current div 2 boys played div 1 and finished 5th, giving those teams above them better competition than other teams. Again good for this state. Plus in pro/rel the idea is only to have 8 teams in a grade to make the top teams play each other 3 times rather than 2.

As too the elite, thank you for correcting me. My previous post should state that Div 1 district basketball should be for elite. The other benefit of pro/rel is that below div 1 each team will be playing against similar ability teams. This will then intice more players into the sport as well as staying in the sport. A current div 2 player, playing for a club who has chosen to put them their, that is getting beaten by a big margin each week, is more likely to leave the sport than if this team were to qualify after the pro/rel summer season in 25th position. They then would get to play teams sitting 25th - 32nd in close contests.

And finally, if you look at the current U/18 and U/16 competitions you will find that the teams who aer sitting bottom now, are in fact the same teams that were sitting bottom in U/12's. While I agree with you that the difference is not as great as in U/12's. I would state that it is greater, from top to bottom, than if only 8 teams were in the competition and pro/rel were used. And also that the overall level of competition would be greater if pro/rel were used due to increased overall competition through all grades making all clubs work harder at improving their juniors.

I think the reality for 'the Sturt coaching model' is that the first year players with real potential (younger), are more likely to be placed in Div 2 and spend two years with their coach. The coach will spend two years developing the talent. One year in div 2 and the second year in div 1. I cant imagine their would be confusion between the div 1 & 2 coach, they both have clear focus.

just a thought.

I am a parent of a junior sabre and past state player all be it years ago. I was critical initially of the roster system - I was totally wrong. The system not only develops coaches but more importantly the players. I bet no other club has as much an inkling and forthought as to who will be in div 1 teams 1 or 2 years ahead etc - All the other clubs are dead set jealous. Why else would they not want us to have more than 1 team in a div 1 grade. The best coaches develop the kids (any kid) better, that is just basic intelligence. Its about time they got their heads out of their a..se and did something about their own coaching standards. Daryl S started it at Unley 5 or so years ago with kids, Scott and Paul set it up and now Liam and co drive it. Credit to all in the past, now Liam and co - keep up the sensational work. If the other clubs spent the same amount of time on their coaches as they do worrying about what ours do then maybe their junior teams would be as good as ours. - Go Sabres

Thankful,

As a coaching director at one of the "other clubs", I am neither dead set jealous of Sturt, nor in any hurry to get my head out of my a..se. Believe me, a lot of thought does go into the future prospects of players, at both Forestville and other clubs outside of Sturt.

Your club is doing a good job of developing both players and coaches, and what's more, is also making an effort to work with other clubs to improve the quality of SA
basketball as a whole.

Posts such as yours do nothing but antagonise members of other clubs, and do nothing to convince them of Sturt's theories re competition reform. A less inflamatory debate about the pros and cons of allowing double div 1 teams, as has occurred before on this forum and its predecessor, would be much more beneficial.

Go Sabres.

Arnie, I agree. I thank Thankful for his/her support, but would ask him/her to tone it down. The debate does not need to be that heated or parochial.

I think the blanket reference to all clubs was not correct, however it certainly does apply to some.

It certainly doesn't apply to Forestville. For many years, the Sturt and Forestville coaches (especially on the boys side) have enjoyed a good relationship and we regularly compare notes over some cold ones. It is obvious from current finals results that Sturt's best competition at the moment is our closest neighbour with whom we are building a good working relationship.

Speaking as a former Eagle (as Jerry constantly reminds me!) I am happy to see Forestville strong again. Go Eagles (and Sabres)!