Doesn't look like it at the moment!

Man who was in the right place at the right time.

Good thread. I've been wondering the same thing. Thanks for posting.

At a few points I’d disagree with some of your comments: eg: Hooley vs Adnam wasn’t a simple decision at the time. Adnam a much better scorer, Hooley a much better defender. Arguably a taller, big bodied defender is a better fit alongside CG43. Hooley proved his worth in Game 1 of the 2018 Grand Final. Sometimes these decisions are based on fit moreso than talent.

You’re a bit harsh on the substitution patterns- Vickerman seems to use whichever bigs he thinks are appropriate at the time. Without checking stats, I would’ve thought Acuil has played more time than TSM this year? Acuil way more talented, but also loose with the ball and foul prone. I’d play Acuil ahead of TSM in most situations, but I don’t agree TSM is useless- he was quite handy on the weekend for example.

United won in 2018 which is what they should’ve done with that roster. In 2019, it was very disappointing the way they lost the minor premiership and then capitulated in the GF (Notwithstanding The awesome semi final series in between). This year was going reasonably but the last 4 games have threatened to turn this into a train wreck. I’ll withhold judgment til season’s end.

Coaches have a broad role that encompasses:

- X’s and O’s and scouting
- Game night X’s and O’s and in game adjustments, being adaptable and reading situations
- Culture and Psychology: Communicating well. Cultivating and sustaining a positive team culture. Motivating players and ensuring they’re in the right head space and playing well at the right time of year
- Recruitment
- Player development- keeping an eye on the future

Right now, I’m questioning Vickerman’s recruiting- Trimble and Long both very talented. But, both share similar weaknesses: Poor defense, not leaders, possibly lacking mental toughness especially in Long’s case, not proven clutch players on successful professional teams. Was it a good idea recruiting two guys with those same issues?

Coaches should be judged not purely on how successful their teams are, but on how well their teams go *relative to the level of talent at their disposal*. On that basis, I don’t rate Vickerman any higher than many of the current and past NBL coaches who have less championships, or none at all- eg: Bevo, Wright, Fearne. Although I do think Vickerman is a better coach than all previous United coaches (Anstey, D-Mac, Demopoulos).

Gleeson out coached him in last years GF series

"Right now, I'm questioning Vickerman’s recruiting- Trimble and Long both very talented. But, both share similar weaknesses"

Without hindsight, if at the start of the season you were offered the chance to sign both players are you saying you wouldn't have?

I've been saying this for at least 2 seasons now, and you put the right words to my thoughts, LV.

His recruiting sucks in terms of its balance and roles, unless he has another JVG type of person doing the recruiting 'for him’ (Crivelli?)

I’d actually say that he does poorly in building a team culture - there were enough times over the last two seasons where it seemed that either his players weren’t following instructions or he’d just not got them on board in the first place. Too much hero ball, too much jacking up rushed 3-pointers, poor offensive rebounding, general confusion about roles after Wesley left, etc etc.

I’m glad to see that Acuil gets minutes but I think he’s likely to be the future of the team in a couple of years and could be blooded a bit faster.

Yep, not sure it's fair to lump their problems with "coaching" - whoever made the roster decisions demands the blame for this year. Melo and Trimble are both very poor returns on investment, and it should have been obvious that for all their flash they both had significant inadequacies on defense that were clear while playing for sub-par teams last season. A healthy Prather would add a few wins with his defense and ability to get to the basket making them less predictable on offense, but I don't think it would have addressed all their issues, and just signing him with his injury concerns was a risk in itself.

They have enough offensive talent that they are still a threat to win the title if they finish in the top 4, but in terms of the wins-to-money spent ratio it would be the worst in the league by far.

Vickerman has also lost the Aussie players.

Sided with the Imports in a recent bust up and so his days are numbered.

I don't think you can blame Vickerman for this he's doing his best with the cards he's been dealt. There is no way a defensive minded coach like him demanded Long & Trimble be on the roster we all saw how good offensively but weak defensively they were on their respective teams.

Throwing the cheque book at Long & Trimble is the kind of thing a clueless GM does along with the batshit crazy decision to give a past import (Prather) a 2 year contract despite doing his knee the previous season and missing all of that season to injury.

[Gleeson out coached him in last years GF series]

I haven't gone back and re-watched any of that series - too depressing.

But, what adjustments did Gleeson make in Games 3 and 4 that caused Perth to dominate both games?

Was it coaching, or United players under performing- or Perth players stepping up?

United did struggle to score in that series. I think Perth exploited a weakness in United’s roster. After Wesley’s departure, United had a lack of low post players. The 2019 offense was all based on Vickerman’s typical sets. Pick and rolls, screens for Goulding, ball movements to open threes.

In 2018, there was a plan B -Wesley down low.

In 2020, we have plan B again- Long down low. This year’s team, at the moment, isn’t quite demonstrating the ability to make smart decisions within the offense. They’re scoring, but scoring through individual brilliance more often than smart team play. And of course they’re defensively deficient.

This does raise questions about Vickerman’s ability to put teams together though.

[Without hindsight, if at the start of the season you were offered the chance to sign both players are you saying you wouldn't have?]

I don’t watch every Cairns and NZ game. Vickerman is the guy who’s paid to make the right decisions.

Having now seen United this season, I would’ve signed Long but not Trimble. High scoring guards are common in the NBL, but it’s rarer having a big guy who can score like Long. Which in my mind makes Long more valuable.

Keeping Casper to shore up the perimeter D would’ve helped Long stay out of foul trouble too.

Of course, this is all dependent on range of factors- money, basketball fit, availability, cultural fit. We as fans can judge basketball fit and take good guesses at cultural fit, but have no idea about money (Hoops anons notwithstanding!).

[Those three guys are probably 3 of the worst coaches in recent memory so it's not that hard to be better than them]

Anstey wasn’t a terrible coach at all. 2013-14 was a good year for the Tigers, given the roster they had.

My guess is Anstey is an acquired taste and works with some people but not others. My guess is the 2014-15 team didn’t mesh with him personality wise, and D-Mac is a chilled character and was brought in with the task of managing that team with all it’s egos and diverse/difficult personalities.

[So why have you been adamant all season that Melbourne are second favourites behind Sydney? You're realising this only now?]

Until 2 weeks ago, there were some reasonable excuses. Prather would be one of the better defenders on the team, and has missed all year (7 games at under 100% fitness, playing 18 minutes a game). Pledger interior toughness was also missed. United were 10-7 after losing some close ones, and looked a good chance to get going with a healthy roster.

Kidd’s still only been in the country 2 weeks and is adjusting to the refs (hence why he played 5 minutes and 16 seconds on Saturday). There’s still 7 games till playoffs. Things can change quickly. I haven’t given up.

OK, so five seasons as a head coach in the NBL for four grand final appearances and two titles. Has any other coach in NBL history done this well in their first five seasons? Brian Kerle maybe?

Long was the right move, best C in the NBL and Boone was fading fast. Burning bridges with Ware was the problem, as much as I hate his shit eating grin, he can ball on both ends of the court, makes smart decisions and can turn it on to win games at the end. As good as Trimble is he's still pretty far off being a leader and demander of the ball. Ware is probably the difference in Kings being top 2 and United being top 2 to be honest.

[OK, so five seasons as a head coach in the NBL for four grand final appearances and two titles. Has any other coach in NBL history done this well in their first five seasons?]

Westover achieved the same in his first 4 seasons.

And 2 titles in his first 3 seasons.

and Westover was NOT a good coach, sorry to say. (From having heard him coaching from up close.)

"Vickerman has also lost the Aussie players. Sided with the Imports in a recent bust up and so his days are numbered"


Can you elaborate on this...is there a rift between the americans and locals?

United won the 2017/18 Championship with 4 imports.

Vickerman and Westover have plenty in common:

- Took over Tigers/United team who had underachieved the previous season

- Good imports returned, after already being with the team the previous season: Ware and Boone. DT and Tucker.

- Inherited veteran role players, no fuss characters who play team basketball and have winning pedigree, having won championships previously: Barlow and Andersen. Stiff and D-Mac. (And Hoare, without the championship experience).

- Big budget at their disposal: United re-signed Goulding after Vickerman's first year, and signed McCarron. Tigers signed Anstey for Westover’s first season, and signed Barlow after Westover’s 2nd season. Both teams have the money to go after in-demand imports who have proven themselves in the NBL: Long and Trimble. Ebi Ere.

In short, a coaches dream in both cases.

Man who was in the right place at the right time.

So therefore Gleeson has just been made to look good by the Perth org? And Goorjian was just made to look good by working for the big spending teams? I don't buy it, there is so much more to coaching than having names on a piece of paper.

"Long was the right move, best C in the NBL and Boone was fading fast. Burning bridges with Ware was the problem, as much as I hate his shit eating grin, he can ball on both ends of the court, makes smart decisions and can turn it on to win games at the end. As good as Trimble is he's still pretty far off being a leader and demander of the ball. Ware is probably the difference in Kings being top 2 and United being top 2 to be honest."

I don't think Long was the best move. The choices weren't Boone or Long, it was Boone or any other import in the world. Despite the flash and highlights last year, watching NZ play Long learnt the best way to stay out of foul trouble is not play D. He also allows himself to be completely forced outside of the paint when going up against size, as he showed every time he went up against Bogut. It's the same this season, way too easy to turn him into a jumpshooter. His offensive rebounding and ability to finish around the hoop are the only things he does at a high level, and IMO they do not make up for the other things he lacks, especially at the coin he would be on.

Agree with Ware though. Trimble is a high usage/low efficiency scorer that again, IMO at least, doesn't do enough outside of look to score to justify his pay on a roster like United who have other scorers on the roster already.

They bought high on Trimble and Long, and I think United would have been better served spending big on an import 4 to replace Barlow (easier than finding a dominant 5 man), big on an import 1 with a more rounded game (in the Ware/Machado vein), and less on an import 5 to replace Boone but do similar things to what Boone did the year before. It would have cost less and made more sense on the court, and Goulding/McCarron are fine in the 2/3 spots against most teams, especially if the 4 man import can guard the perimeter and pick up wings like Hopson from time to time.

"I don't think Long was the best move. The choices weren't Boone or Long, it was Boone or any other import in the world. Despite the flash and highlights last year, "

Disagree, Long figured out how to stay out of foul trouble which the majority of import bigs fail to do in the NBL. I'd take that over waiting to see if an untried import can figure it out after a few months, if not, that pick-up is a bust.

Looking at Perth, Hunt never truly figured it out so they went high risk high reward with cutting him and bringing in Plumlee because they didn't have much to do. If United went with an untested C, they would've missed out on Long, and he probably would be at the Cats right now and we'd be title favourites by an absolute mile.

Paul please don't use Goorjian in that hypothetical please. In what world could you envision him moving clubs and being at the helm of a rabble such as the current Bullets team.

Thinking back to Lemanis at the Breakers you had those first two seasons or so where in one he let Carlos Powell walk all over him on national TV. Never before or again have I seen anything like it in the NBL - how he kept his job I don't know. Then once the Blackwells put in their culture, local NZ talent improved and was retained (and overpaid), the scouting/recruitment service (can't recall the name) they used which brought in the most consistent crop of imports compared to any other organisation, the construction of a club-owned Atlas Place training centre, finding substantial third party money for the signing of Kirk Penney etc. and Lemanis' record went up. Vickerman continued in it. These were all unique intangibles not even found at the Wildcats. I don't think it's unfair that such an environment can boost an average coach's record.

Vickerman has been the beneficiary of having good rosters at his disposal at both clubs, with money to sign elite talent, plus low maintenance veterans who put the team first and would be easy to coach.

An open question is exactly how much influence he has in recruitment but I suspect he directs the whole show and has the final say on any decisions. You'd hope so, anyway.

"Paul please don't use Goorjian in that hypothetical please. In what world could you envision him moving clubs and being at the helm of a rabble such as the current Bullets team."

This world. It hasn't been all plain sailing for him in China.

Who is this Raheem Moore and can we please sign him ASAP?

His name inspires Hoops greatness.

Can't be worse than Ramone Moore.

The season is not over.

Vickerman is a good coach.
A) he won 2 championships over 2 different teams.
B) He took an under-performing United and won it all the next year, then took them to Game 4 of the GF the year next.

What more do you want?

Every coach is exposed to losing at some point.

Gleeson wasn't able to get it done with DeAndre Daniels and Beal, nor with Cotton and JP Tokoto. Doesn't make him a bad coach.

I think this thread was either authored by Dean ' Ryan' Demopolous or Jo Lual Acuil's agent.

We've seen what a poor coach can do with a stacked roster.
In fact we've seen what even a to-date, average, coach can to with a stacked roster.
So there is absolutely no way you can discount Vickerman's wins based on roster-strength.

In regards to last year's loss, people also have to accept that Gleeson is the best coach in the league. So being marginally "out-coached" is not necessarily that damming of Vicks. Probably the greatest thing Gleeson did last year, was getting his team to reconnect after their mid-season slump, and getting everyone to fire up for the finals.
The one criticism I would level at Vicks & MU, is that after getting pummelled in game 3, they lost their bottle and all-but rolled over in game 4.

What we know for a fact, is that in addition to stacking your roster, successful teams need to build chemistry, culture, and consistency. Melbourne had too much churn over the off-season, and inconvenient injuries during the season.
And yes, with Long and Trimble, looking at rebuilding the entire fabric of your team around two vastly different players.
Trimble was a great pick for a crap team looking for a hero. Moulding him into a leader for a would-be champion will take longer.
Long, as his size, is always going to be a more offensively valuable centre.

That's a no from me.

Hoops: Vickerman is not that great because he only has two titles despite all the stacked teams he's had.

Also Hoops: Gleeson is not that great because anyone could have won four titles with the stacked teams he's had.

You are screwed either way.

This world. It hasn't been all plain sailing for him in China.