Seems to me they asked for ID and Ben didn't have any.

The liquor licensing laws dictate that you have to ask anyone who appears under 25 for ID and if they don't have it, you refuse them entry or service. Ben Simmons is 23 years old and didn't have ID. There is literally no story to be told here. His white friend who didn't get checked looks damn near 30. I really hope Ben isn't going to try to be some Colin Kappernick race-baiting type crying racism at every turn because that will go over about as well as his Boomers withdrawals with the Australian public. Americans might be about that shit but I think Aussies have a fairly short fuse with professional victims.

Is that you Andrew?

I don't think he's gonna go all Colin Kappernick on people, the foundation of his disappointment is one incident with one bouncer.

Given he is a producer of the new Goodes doco you'd think he'd have his ear to the ground of how there is an under current of racism in this country. The Herald Sun 'journos' are gonna jump on this and make a link between his lack of nationalism while he bags the country out to his millions of followers.

Oh god, the Adam Goodes saga. Rile up a crowd, have them boo you, cry victim. It's ridiculous.

"go all Colin Kappernick"

Kappernick had (and still has) a great point and made a silent, peaceful protest. There's nothing wrong with what he did.

"Oh god, the Adam Goodes saga. Rile up a crowd, have them boo you, cry victim. It's ridiculous."

What is ridiculous is people still defending the treatment of Goodes

Not likely anything "racial" going on but mistakes all round

Simmons, get off instagram. Don't go ranting on there, makes you look like a child

And Crown, look after your star guests (assuming someone there was smart enough to know it was Simmons)

Invite him back tonight and he might blow some of that $170US mil on your tables

Settle down Andrew, I'm sure Rita, Bolt and co. will have articles out immediately condemning his victim mentality. You can then stick them to your ceiling and send yourself off to sleep in raptures. Nothing like a night of anger sleep to refresh the body.

An almost nothing light story and ME once again comes running in injecting his toxic far-right politics into it.

"An almost nithing light story"

So that's what you think Ben was making of it when he first posted it, and you think thats what the left media will do with it, is it?

Ben Simmons will have his own documentary soon, "The Crown Casino Case"

Simmons is getting harder to like by the week with this, his wanky insta posts and everything else.

In contrast so easy to back humble hardworking dudes like Delly, Joe, Ryan etc.

spent way too much time in the USA where racial issues go both ways, also has an over inflated ego, the law is the law , if they cannot produce ID when asked for it then no entry, end of story, why should a security guard know who he is, not everyone in the world watches basketball, most of those who work on the doors of the casino are of ethnic background, they would have no reason to flash a race card at all.

Why is it that so many of these young guys of the elite sporting world have absolutely the worst attitude the second they dont get their own way


parental indulgence and inflated egos due to online media hype would be my guess.

"race-baiting"
"cry victim"
"crying racism"
"professional victim"
"...thats what the left media will do..."

"I haven't seen anything political or of the far-right"

uh huh

If there was truth to the discrimination, why remove the post? If there was truth to it, does he just not have the fortitude to stand up and use his profile to be an activist? Is he afraid of backlash? The more likely explanation is that he was mistaken. For decades Crown security has been often tight in enforcing its entry rules. If you've entered Crown as a diverse group of young men before, this kind of story is not unusual, with some being asked for id and others not, some being assessed thoroughly in dress code, while the odd one might be able to slip through.

His retraction was all too late. Any racial discrimination story is gold to the media. Add a celebrity into the mix and it's momentary headline material.

Now what can he do? Say "my bad", clarify his mistake and risk looking foolish in a story that has already gained a lot of traction? Or briefly respond to critics who offer explanations to discount his original story, despite removing his original post already? I know which option is the easy, face-saving option.

I'm surprised that there are still people who fail to see the many factors beyond race that contributed to the development of the Goodes villain narrative. Goodes behaviour was clearly polarising and had numerous traits that were unlikable to many.

Simmons funding of the Goodes documentary is consistent with someone who shares similar simplistic, racially motivated explanations for negative treatment, ala Goodes. We aren't talking about someone nuanced in their analysis of the way others treat him.

Why is it that on the same day one Aboriginal player can be cheered and Goodes booed? It's nothing about race. Goodes was just a d@#k.

Simmons is an amazing player but sadly I can see him going down the racist victim path as of late.

"I'm surprised that there are still people who fail to see the many factors beyond race that contributed to the development of the Goodes villain narrative. Goodes behaviour was clearly polarising and had numerous traits that were unlikable to many."

There are many factors, no doubt. None of them good. At best those people still piled on to the bullying in spite of the toll it took and in far too many cases simply because of the toll it took. These people are only marginally less douchey (if at all) than those with the racial motivation.

"Why is it that on the same day one Aboriginal player can be cheered and Goodes booed? It's nothing about race. Goodes was just a d@#k."

The old "we don't boo ALL aboriginal people, so we can't be racist" angle.

Best countered with former Magpie CEO Allan McAlister's quote in the 90s about how Aboriginal players would be respected "as long as they conducted themselves like white people on and off the field".

Sadly that view hasn't changed much.

Don't twist words Cram.

Yours or McAlisters? You're clearly in great company

Lets be honest, Ben knows he blew a mountain out of a molehill or he wouldn't have deleted his post. But the fact is he's gone half-cocked claiming racism when the evidence and situation clearly suggests there was none, and now the media is absolutely relishing the opportunity to remind us all that we're all racists unless we give half-black multimillionaires with superiority complexes who assume they should never have to give ID or conform to the social mores of regular society, special treatment.

"Best countered with former Magpie CEO Allan McAlister's quote in the 90s about how Aboriginal players would be respected "as long as they conducted themselves like white people on and off the field"."

That's twisting words. How about just not riling up crowds and making gestures that appear violent towards them. He calls his little spear dance a cultural thing. And while no one could say the spear throwing would be something anyone would be injured over, it was clearly done as an aggressive gesture to a crowd that didn't like him. Is he truly surprised they booed him in response? What about for calling out a little girl for making a dumb remark? Goodes clearly didn't act "like an Aboriginal" but like a bit of a dickhead who was looking for axes to grind. Was the booing over the top? Perhaps, but let's not pretend the guy was innocent.

Some people exist who will want to appear non-racist so much that they will deny logic and evidence and will dive to believe any claim any person of color makes about racism, so that they look like one of the "good whites".

Ben wasn't a victim of racism here and it's fucking laughable to pretend he was.

"..calling out a little girl for making a dumb remark.."

A *racist* remark.

And he was at pains to point out he didn't blame the girl, saying she needed education and meeting with her in person. Her remark was a symptom of those around her.

The pushback was never about the little girl - look at how many people are gleefully backing Andrew Bolt's demonization of a little girl fighting for action on climate change . It was about a black man having the gall to say enough is enough - and as a society we do not handle that at all well.

"That's twisting words"

Someone from the football establishment saying he's happy to treat aboriginal players well as long as they act like white guys. A quote no less.

"Ben wasn't a victim of racism here and it's fucking laughable to pretend he was. "

Is anyone here actually disagreeing with that?

"Racism in the states goes both ways" LOL minorities can't be racist they can be Prejudice but not racist. Ben keeping it real Australia far more racist than people want to admit.

So many 'twists' from so many posters....and ALL of the media condemning everyone as racists. Fear not gentlemen, it will be dark soon and all of your favourite shows will be on soon for you to scream along with.

Not disagreeing witg that at all.

""Racism in the states goes both ways" LOL minorities can't be racist they can be Prejudice but not racist. Ben keeping it real Australia far more racist than people want to admit.

"

So, Ben is keeping it real by claiming racism when the Crown Casino asks that he conforms to the rules of the casino (showing ID, wearing appropriate clothing)?

Yep, you're an idiot.

As for "racism can't go both ways", that's just some new age gobbedygook concocted by people who want carte blanch to be hypocrites, act completely racist towards white people, yet have the ability to bitch and moan when they receive the same treatment in return. "Fuck white people!" is fine, and can't be racist. But "Fuck black people"? No, that's racist... because something, something slavery. Literally, the ideology that is borne from is one where certain groups want to be able to act in a racist way, while having protection when it comes back to them.

""Ben wasn't a victim of racism here and it's fucking laughable to pretend he was. "

Is anyone here actually disagreeing with that?"

Well some people are actively trying to pretend he was not engaged in race-baiting, which he was. And like he wasn't playing the victim and race cards, which he clearly was.

He made a mistake no doubt. Something he has clearly realised.

If the media didn't over sensationalise and beat this up, you blokes certainly did.

Do any old Melbourne Tigers fans remember the crowd's treatment of Tim Morrissey?

No. I probably only caught the tail end of his time. I'd be interested to hear.

"Racism in the states goes both ways" LOL minorities can't be racist they can be Prejudice but not racist. Ben keeping it real Australia far more racist than people want to admit.

KAP I suggest you go try living in America in a predominantly African American area, then you may change your opinion

Neither way is correct but racism isn't limited to just one skin colour .

But the most ridiculous part of all this, just like when Liz Cambage , ( and also many with mixed blood of white and Aboriginal ) brings out the race card to detract from her behaviour , Simmons is only identifying with one part of his DNA when it comes to playing victims .

It’s more the arrogance of feeling entitled that causes this reaction they have , if the media stopped dancing to their tune and ignored them , and stopped holding them up like something to be idolised , they wouldn’t have a platform to behave like this .

So offended ME, take a chill pill brother.

I really like Simmons.

But part of me senses that in 3-5 years time he is going to be one of those guys who just isn't well liked by Australian fans/even hated.

I think his attitude has changed a lot from since he came into the league (is it unreasonable to suggest that the game is getting to his head a bit?)

Ben showing the intense pre-season focusing on the NBA up and coming season. Whilst the real stars of the NBA are training, Ben is out on the piss making poor life choices.

We all acknowledge that Chris Goulding gets boo'd as much as any current NBL player but from memory you'd go to Kings games just to boo Tim Morrissey, it used to make me laugh my arse off.

I think basketball fans just like to boo rival players (remember that Lindsay Gaze thinking it was disgusting that Andrew got boo'd considering what he'd given the national team) but I think it's a great part of basketball moreso than you get with AFL or even cricket, soccer etc. Brian Conklin, Shawn Redhage and Ray Gordon are other such polarising figures yet they are all white!

Ben made a mistake but c'mon champion, don't appear like you're too good to carry your own ID.

In the case of Goodes, the issue of what constitutes racism can become quite convoluted.

Firstly, there are those will occasionally boo and jeer an opponent, but mostly in good spirits and regard it as a bit of fun. Perhaps part of the notion of making their home ground inhospitable to visiting teams. And usually the player has done something to cause this temporary ire. MOst players cop it on the chin, and put it behind them,
Problem with Goodes, even before we look at the motivation, is that it became a sustained attack, across several games, involving fans and teams with no connection to the original events.
The worst aspect of this, is that the furore was fuelled by idiots in the media. The constant cries that Goodes was a victim of racism, came not from Goodes, but from idiots who should have kept their mouths shut.
The end result, is that Goodes was effectively bullied, in every game he ran out, and not surprisingly he began to take that very personally.

It shouldn't have happened, and its something footy fans should be collectively be ashamed of.

The question of attaching racism to it is vexing. If one kid starts calling another a nasty (but not inherently racist) name like say "stinky", because of his race. That is still racist. If other kids join in, because they think its funny, or because they like to be bullies or for whatever reason we do such stupid things as kids, then even if their motivation is not racist, they are still participating in a racist attack.
(And I'd make the point, one kid calling you stinky because you dropped a fart, is relatively harmless. Everyone calling you stinky, every day, is outright bullying of the worst kind.)

The incident with the young girl, was not the actual trigger.
It was his performance of the "war dance" and as apart of that imitating the motion of throwing a spear.
Yes, we can say that his behaviour was stupid and unnecessarily inflammatory. We can point out that said "war dance" was not cultural, but something made up by a group of kids, and that including the "spear throw" was just plain dumb.
But we can't deny the racial element, especially from Goode's perspective.

And yeah, we have to be careful with the "I didn't boo other Indigenous Players" argument.
I don't have to beat all Asians to be a racist. Simply attacking one person, because he is Asian, constitutes racism.

And yes, racism CAN go "both ways" but its not that simple.
Sure, if a black person hates people just because they are white, that's racism. But believing that white people look down on you because you're black, where there is plenty of evidence that many do, is not racism.
I suppose you could say that if a black person thinks ALL whites are inherently racist, then yes he's a racist. But I seldom hear such a claim. KNOWING that MANY whites are racist, doesn't make him a racist.

Further to my point, Mark Worthington played his last game at Perth Arena and he has been a match winner against Perth many times and during that last game he was boo'd throughout then once the match was over, he was interviewed and the crowd gave him a tremendous ovation for his career (both internationally and in the NBL and being a Western Australian) so I'm all for booing but come the final whistle, respect should be shown for that athlete if they have given their all.

I'm with a lot of what you said, D2.0, including the real trigger and the media's role in making Goodes a polarising figure. Goodes suffered greatly from the way the media portrayed him in order to stir controversy. But any claim of a widespread racial element remains weak. Bullying, yes, but that doesn't make it racist, especially in any widespread fashion.

Apart from somewhat foolish mistakes to trigger the controversy, he also responded to the booing in the wrong way. The worst thing you can do is respond as the victim and show weakness, same as with bullies in real-life. Look at what happened with Richard Hadlee in cricket. Hadlee was not just booed but there were incessant "Hadlee's a wanker" chants directed at him. When he publicly objected, revealed that he didn't like it, and suggested bad parenting of those kids that joined in, it only got worse. Hadlee soon realized such attention was actually a show of respect in a way. Hadlee changed his perception of the booing and it drove him to be more successful. Like Hadlee, Goodes should have used the negative attention as a motivating force.

Instead of explaining it as a sporting phenomenon, Goodes and others explained it away as racism.

Yes, some people are racists. Some people are bullies. Some people are idiots. There are all kinds of stupid, but you have to be careful in labelling a whole group based on a minority within that group.

It's not convincing to suggest that other fans joining in the boos are propagating a racist attack. It's like categorizing everyone in a protest as part of a violent movement when there are just a small proportion of unruly violent troublemakers in the protest. An action or opinion is not invalidated if there are some people that hold it or initiated it for the wrong reasons.

D2.0, I know you didn't claim people who were booing were racist, just claiming they were participating in a racist attack, which may let you off slightly, but many people assert this. They want to paint anyone that was booing as racist. Ironically, their rationale is very similar to racist rationale.

If I applied this same rationale to a racial grouping, such as claiming Asians are bad drivers, or that Aboriginals were drunks, it would be widely considered to be racist. It's this kind of generalisation of a grouping, often based on a minority within that group, that spawns discriminatory views of people within said grouping. It is toxic.

So now consider the way that people booing were being profiled as racists by other accusers. No wonder why so many people who were booing objected to this! It was generalised, derogatory and unjustified. Sound familiar? Can you see how that might trigger a stronger response with louder boos? Not Goodes' fault, but Goodes was already the figurehead of that movement.

This is where people should be cautious about latching onto the new regressive left (a form of SJW) ideology and the inherent hypocrisy of it. SJW ideology values power and advantage/disadvantage above consistent ideals. It is highly reliant on categorizing people in groups, generalising, and while the basic idea of equality is admirable, it fails to apply this principle consistently and reasonably.

This Simmons story has blown up, and take note, it is a lot of the regressive left supporting Simmons. I wonder if Australians will appreciate Simmons for triggering -- and subsequently perpetuating -- a media storm that has led to outsiders suggesting Australians are racist. Australians, not just one security guard doing his job. Can you sense any deja vu here?

The Vic government paid for his current trip out to Melbourne via Visit Victoria.

Can't think he'd get another gig like that considering he slander one for the states major attractions so openly and without cause in public the way he did.

But its ok Ben is passionate about equality and will speak up (lie) even if it means having uncomfortable conversations.

I guess those uncomfortable conversations could include race baiting, dog whistling and while we are at it lets blame trump as an excuse for nothing but a blatant lie!

Goodes stood up to a racist act and was booed for it.

The media beat the story and some suggested the booing should stop. This made it worse, because people don't like to be told what to do.

Now, these people aren't booing because they're racist, they're doing it because they're edgelords who don't like to be told what to do, but they KNOW the reason the booing started is because of a stand against racism.

So are they much better?

I think that's what a lot of the problem is in Australia. I think there's very few Aussies who would consider themselves racist or outright hate another race. But the outright dismissing of another person's experience and casual racism is blatant and massively widespread.

Piling on to the bullying of someone is poor, but not in itself racist, but when the catalyst was all about race, it perfectly highlights Australia's mentality.

And btw I think Simmons is completely in the wrong here.

@Anon#754779,

short statements can say so much, you are spot on with that!

@ME, please get someone else to pre-read what you are posting will you, just a hint!

Sometimes this forum makes me think, sometimes laugh and sometimes it's just sad. This is one of those sad times when uneducated, ignorant opinions get too much air time...

rjd,
I understand what you're saying, and mostly agree, with a couple of corrections.

It's never fair to effectively blame the victim even when we all acknowledge that he could have handled it better. Furthermore, it was mostly media idiots that hyped this up and made the situation worse. Either they were morons and thought they were helping, or they just enjoyed the story and media hype.

As is often the case with polarisation arguments, we can get so caught up in the debate that we overlook what is actually happening.
Instead of saying "we're not racist, lets keep on booing", we should have recognised what was happening and stopped it. The media should have just being saying "right this has gone on long enough, time to put a stop to it."

Goodes may appear overly sensitive, but so what. I'd rather a dozen sensitive guys like Goodes, than one butthead like Hall.
Picking on sensitive people, because you get a reaction, is the hallmark of a bully.

Again, this proclamation that it must be all about Goodes being aboriginal because he was trying to call out somebody he thought to be racist. The scale of this was actually not about racism. It wasn't just about masses of a crowd all acting like bullies. In the modern sense, it was a PC backlash. It reflected discontent over PC culture, particularly those that felt pressured into changing behaviour based on false accusations. In the traditional sense, it was larrakinism.

Like it or hate it, Australian larakinism is deeply entrenched in our culture. This includes personal jibes, vulgar and uncultivated language, irreverent humour. It conflicts in part with modern PC attitudes that restrict expression and aims to minimise potential harm.

Was the girl intentionally racist, or was it just an act of infantile hooliganism that didn't deserve public shaming? Was McGuire's comment casual racism, or just a larrikin making a provocative jibe using irreverent humour? In the context of larrikinism, these are not intended as racist, which we should remember actually refers to a belief in racial superiority. Then you have Goode's provocative war dance routine, unfairly interpreted as an aggressive signal but foolish to do in the context of the situation nonetheless, the widespread derogatory claims that those booing were racist, then the campaign to stop booing, telling them what they can or can't do. Larrikinism doesn't respond well to that. Again it's not about racism, it's about authority.


I found this quote that seems relevant: "It can be argued that the larrikin tradition of disdain for authority, propriety and the often conservative norms of bourgeois Australia (as evident, for example, in the country's history of censorship and the nation's receptiveness to paternalistic leaders) are two sides of a self-reinforcing dynamic; the social conservatism of the mainstream fuels the undercurrent of larrikinism and rebellion, which, in turn, is seen as demonstrating that a firm hand is needed. This is sometimes referred to as the "larrikin-wowser nexus", "wowser" being an Australian colloquial term for a person of puritanical mores."

In this, Goodes was the figurehead 'wowser'. The resistance to expressions of larrikinism just fueled a stronger and louder response. More people were booing. As I said before, this happened with Hadlee too.

So is Australia casually racist? From one perspective, you can argue that based on a new definition of racism. Australia is traditionally casual about a lot of other -isms. It's sometimes called Australian larrikinism.

(Not a response to D2.0, by the way, didn't read it yet)

Yes it was a PC backlash. Backlash against someone who had the gall to say its not ok to make racist remarks from the crowd. That isn't just larrikinism, that's racism.

The fact that people are told something is racially offensive yet keep doing it, doesn't make it ok. It shows how little regard is shown to the experience of others and is very much racism.

Hi anon #861, that's complete bullshit. If you are a closet Ozhooper that's too scared to have any id, go and look it up and then report back. I said he was foolish to do the "war dance" in the context of the situation. It was clearly going to rile up people the wrong way. I personally actually like goal celebrations, even if lots of Australians don't like that kind of showboating, and I understood Goodes's intent was not intended to be aggressive, nor even a war dance. It was meant to emulate the Haka, which I love to see New Zealand do. The difference is that people are familiar with the meaning of the Haka in the context. We are talking about sports crowds here. It's tribalism. You can't get much more tribal than Goodes' war dance.

I'm not excusing the people booing, nor the effective bullying, but I'm explaining it. Relying on just racism is a very weak explanation. There were no doubt some people making racist remarks, but it doesn't reflect the widespread treatment of Goodes.

* I mean, it was meant as a tribute to his heritage, like the Haka is. My understanding was that it was a new invention to act as a tribue, not necessarily traditional in itself.

Racism was at the heart of the treatment of Goodes. You can call it pushback against PC culture, but when the PC culture that people are fighting is education on things like "you shouldn't wear blackface" or "telling racist jokes is wrong", simply crying "I'm not racist, I'm just sick of being told what I'm doing isn't acceptable" is not an excuse.

Sexual harassment has too often been passed off as "larrikinism". Arguing that saying to your waitress "show us your tits" is just a joke and doesn't warrant someone taking a stand is just as silly as suggesting Goodes should cop the barrage of racial discrimination he gets because it makes Aussie "larrikins" feel uncomfortable.

"Backlash against someone who had the gall to say its not ok to make racist remarks from the crowd. That isn't just larrikinism, that's racism."

Just because activism was about racism, it doesn't mean the response was. It is far more nuanced than that. As I mentioned, from the perspective of a larrikan, the girl's slur need not be racial; McGuire's joke can be irreverent humour. The line for where racism begins, and whether intent matters, is in conflict between two groups. It's actually the crux of the issue.

The *actual* definition of racism is being left behind as the aforementioned line for where racism begins advances. This isn't just happening re:racism, it applies to other forms of PC. It advances further in the minds of the ironically self-proclaimed "less narrow-minded adults" like the poster above, completely oblivious to the closed-mindedness of their own stance. It's an example of the classic horseshoe effect of the regressive left.

(* By the way, before assuming I'm right-wing, I'm actually a classic liberal with left-wing views.)

rjd - I tend to agree with you on a lot of things, so that's why I'm surprised at this one.

McGuire's joke is the perfect example of casual or passive racism. The lack of understanding - and the clear lack of will to attempt to understand - how something can be racist, while continuing the trot out racist "jokes", when time and time again you've been told this isn't acceptable. It is racist.

^
You do realise he has as much Caucasian blood in him as his African American blood right ?

Maybe if he identifies with being "just" a person and forgets about what colour he thinks he is, focus on behaviour then maybe , just maybe he may realise that he was denied entry like any other person who wouldn't/couldn’t provide ID and was inappropriately dressed for where he wanted to go

People who argue against something being racist must be racist? All this in a topic arguing against closed-minded stubborn bullies. Incredible. Classic regressive leftist argument. Oblivious to hypocrisy.

The old "just act white and you'll be fine" trick.

Here's a hint: you shouldn't have to and it doesn't work anyways.

Trust me.

Insisting that something isn't racist when the victims have repeatedly told you it is, so you keep doing it just to spite them. Yep that's racist.

When you don't get your own way... that's racist too isn't it?

Clearly we need to define racism. Are we choosing the actual dictionary-based meaning?
- different treatment -- prejudice, discrimination, antagonism -- based on a *belief* of racial superiority; or
- the *belief* in generalised shared traits/abilities/etc specific to a race, especially as it pertains to one race being superior/inferior to another.

So under these definitions, the holder of racist notions holds the belief themselves. The belief matters, not the interpretation nor others level of offense.

Of course, that's just using the dictionary. Alternatively, we can expand the term further. How much further? Obviously there are a lot of people who use more expansive definitions. Where is the line for where racism starts and why?

To some, the definition seemingly includes disputing occurrences of racism. What a brilliant self-fulfilling definition!

"It's racist"
"No, it isn't."
"Well, now you are racist, whether it really was or wasn't racism"
"FMD, you got me, I must be!"

I hate to get into semantics, but we seem to really be falling into the trap of offense culture, redefining words and establishing rules based on offense. If you agree with offense culture dictating acceptable standards of behaviour, which can certainly be reasonable in some cases, and you also hold up values of free speech, get ready for some ideological maneuvering because there are inevitable ideological clashes ahead.

Obviously as a society we need to come to some sort of agreement to draw that line of what is/isn't racism. That will only happen with open-mined discussions. It comes from understanding and, yes, explaining. Closing off arguments with "you are racist" is clearly is not productive. Define it. Justify it. Explain why it should be wrong.

"But fuck me this is the first time I've heard the I'm not racist cos the dictionary told me I'm not line.....classic"

Are you implying that I'm racist? Go ahead, educate me how/why.

I never condoned the behaviour on either side of the Goodes saga. I'm in the middle questioning and explaining it. If you want my opinion, I think some of the people declaring that the people booing are racist are propagating a toxicity just as much as those who were booing/bullying Goodes. Both sides engage in socially harmful and divisive behaviour. They both seem to fail to understand each other and both see the issue so simplistically.

Rjd. I don't think you're racist. But arguing semantics while trying to defend racists doesn't look great either.

Defending racists? Really? That's like a calling a judge "defending criminals" for providing reasons to dismiss a case due to lack of evidence.

It's fair to argue that a minority of people are racists. Stamp that out, by all means. But paint a majority with the same racism brush as a minority? I'd say that's unfair and divisive. If it's indeed a minority, there must be other factors also responsible for the widespread booing. I've explained several other factors that help explain it, each without racism as the motivator. I've also provided examples of equivalent events where the was widespread non-racially-motivated booing. If there are any precedents of widespread racially-motivated booing in Australian sporting history, I'd like to hear it.

If you think it is a majority, then I suppose fair enough, but seems dubious to me. I mean, I know footy fans can be dicks, but really that many?

I've explained numerous times why the actions of the majority are only marginally less awful than the minority of overt racists.

Ben has stormed out of an interview.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/nba-star-ben-simmons-stormed-out-of-interview-with-campbell-brown/news-story/51342b99c4faff4a717bda8a9d216d40

It was this joke by Campbell Brown that did it...

We've got a fair bit in common you and I. You drive a Maserati, I drive a Toyota Kluger. You’re worth $250 million and I’m borderline unemployed and the last thing we have in common is we’ve both been denied entry to Crown."

I think Ben should roll with whatever jokes and jibes that comes with such publicity.

It's all becoming a bit ridiculous at the moment. Ben was a little bit precious by storming out of the interview, and by his little Crown Casino whinge, but I also think the media is now out for blood on him and want to make him into some sort of anti-hero. I think the best thing Ben could do for himself is to go back to the US where they're used to having NBA stars carry on like this, for the good of himself and his reputation. The media can smell the blood in the water and they know they're onto a selling story. Now any time he does literally anything they're going to remind us that he signed a $240 million contract and how that means he can no longer expect to be treated like a person, and the flip side of Ben wanting special treatment will also cause even more backlash. Head back to Philly, let it cool down, and hopefully see him next year. Hopefully.

Everyone talks about the only problem with Simmons game being his lack of jumpshot. It's fair to point out, but something worries me more. His mental strength is his Achilles heel right now. As much as he strides off-court with the bravado of a superstar, it doesn't seem genuine to me. Sure, he has talent of a genuine superstar, but he doesn't hold that unflinching belief in his own game.

He is elite in so many ways, with amazing production to start games, but he tends to fade throughout games and become very passive when the pressure is really on. He doesn't hand pressure particularly well for a superstar.

His jumpshot has regressed over the years. His FT% has fallen since high school and college. I wonder why for so long he just used his brother as his shooting coach. Did it reflect a sensitivity to outside criticism?

While it might be seen as a stretch to cite his reaction to a joke, or even handling pressure under social rather than game situations, but this latest reaction might also be a reflection of his underdeveloped coping mechanisms under pressure. This Crown incident no doubt has put him under pressure. He is sensitive about it and wishes to not discuss it in interviews. If one has confidence and convictions, perhaps you wouldn't shy away from it. To be fair, though, he might just be sick of those kinds of questions by now.

The argument was that Simmons would take the World Cup off to focus on development. How much can you really develop a jumpshot in a month? What Simmons really needs is to experience high pressure basketball. How long did it take LeBron to lose his reputation of performing sub par in the Finals? Like LeBron, Simmons is not naturally clutch. They need to work towards it. The best way to do so is to submit themselves to truly high pressure game situations, repeatedly. A World Cup tournament, with single game knockouts, is perfect conditions to practice high pressure situations. Deep in the tournament, each game is a game 7.

He is still young, so hopefully he learns to become genuinely more confident within himself in time, because his off-court superstar bravado doesn't seem to come from a genuine place. Simmons needs to learn to toughen up, become more resilient and accept constructive criticism to become better. Become more confident. What he is going through this off-season in Australia is nothing compared with the way the NBA media is dissecting, and often mocking, his game based on his lack of jumpshot. So perhaps that's the explanation right there.

It's a bit harsh for the media to pile on him over the camp fees and such, but from a PR point of view, taking a joke might be wise. It would be a basic start towards self-confidence and resilience. I suspect the general Australian public doesn't like superstars that act too precious.

"If you want my opinion, I think some of the people declaring that the people booing are racist are propagating a toxicity just as much as those who were booing/bullying Goodes. Both sides engage in socially harmful and divisive behaviour. They both seem to fail to understand each other and both see the issue so simplistically."

Brilliantly said.

Spot on Anon the toxicity was always in those doing the booing and continuing to boo once Goodes voiced his view it was racist.

Unfortunately there has always been a quite racist undercurrent in Australia especially in footy and Goodes and others in the past like Nicky Windmar were brave to call it out in a culture that can appreciate the sporting skills of black men but don't want to hear them speak their mind.

"Nothing says white privilege more than people complaining that others aren't calling out actual racism in the right way"

Nothing says identity politics and hypocritical racism like those that propagate "white privilege" in arguments like this.

Let's analyse this statement for a second. Either you are assuming that the people complaining about this are white. Why? Or you are just targeting one particular race of people who hold this opinion. Why? Would that not be racist? At best, this is a generalised statement that people of who claim this are white, which is certainly not the case. At worst, you are singling out a race in a derogatory sense, which can be interpreted as racist.

Secondly, you assume that these people either 1) are white, and therefore privileged, which is a racially-charged generalisation, again untrue and racist because privilege seems to be used pejoratively, suggesting that they can't understand something due to privilege; or 2) they are white AND privileged, such that privilege is a secondary label associated with holding this opinion. Why does the privilege of the holder of the opinion matter? Would it also matter if it were a non-white person of privilege? If so, why single out white people only? This would be a racist attack. Either way, there are some worrying racist undertones here, which presumably go against your supposed core argument of stopping racism. This would make you a hypocrite, like so much of the regressive left. (Btw, I'm left-leaning myself, so I don't mean to put down all of the left)

Please prove me wrong here and explain your reasoning. Too often there are people that use terms like "white privilege" as a QED, when more often than not, it is used in a hypocritically racist context.

"Nothing says white privilege more than people complaining that others aren't calling out actual racism in the right way"

Every time someone says "white privilege", common sense dies just a little. And sorry, people have a right to take issue with whatever they like, including how someone goes about calling out racism. If someone's calling out racism happens in a way that negatively impacts things for other people, then those "privileged white" people have a right to say and think whatever they like about it. It amuses me that we call white privileged, yet if a person of colour accuses them of racism, they had better just kowtow and apologise, regardless of what the intent was. Ben expected that from Crown Casino even though he was only being subjected to the same conditions as literally everyone else.

As for Adam Goodes, sure there were probably racists booing. There were also people who got sick and tired of him playing the race card. There were also people who didn't like him singling out a little girl. There were also people who didn't like his little war dance. So while there were racists involved, those people who took a dislike to his handling of the situation had every right to feel the way they felt, just as Adam Goodes has every right to feel the way he feels. Equal rights, yeah? Not just one side dictating to the other how everything is gonna be. Same with Ben. He has a right to call Crown Casino racist, and I have a right to roll my eyes at him and tell him to go work on his jump shot as he said he was going to.

Equal rights, yeah? Not just one side dictating to the other how everything is gonna be.

"You're better than that nonsense, rjd."
Same anon or different anon? Perhaps you can explain the anons meaning. Otherwise, this becomes so typical of people who use these kinds of terms -- they can't explain their reasoning and they usually struggle to even define those terms.

"People were given a choice between standing up to racist idiots, or joining in the booing because they don't like being told what to do, and they chose the latter. Maybe it doesn't make them racists, they just chose to get in bed with them."

This argument is poor, by the way. A small minority in the Hong Kong protests are vandalizing property. Does that invalidate all the other protesters there? Should everyone stop protesting because they are condoning violence by association? Are all the protesters in bed with violent vandals? Consistent reasoning actually matters.

If, as you said, these people don't like being told what to do, it sounds like you are arguing that they were acting out freedom of expression. Is that the problem now?

Ben has stormed out of an interview.

It was this joke by Campbell Brown that did it...

We white people have been dictating to them how everything is going to be from the moment we arrived on their land, the massacres even pushing some off cliffs and taking away their children from them yet you've actually got the nerve to type that sentence above?

"In your Hong Kong analogy, does the vandalism occur before the protests started?"

What makes you think the first people who were booing had racist motivations?

In the analogy, why would it matter if the first protesters were violent if the subsequent protesters had other motives? Are you implying that any reasonable protests should not occur if the original protesters were troublemakers with bad motives?

"We white people have been dictating to them how everything is going to be from the moment we arrived on their land"

It's fair enough to point out the mistreatment of indigenous Australians in Australia's early history and racist practices into the 20th century, but I am wondering who are you referring to here as 'we white people'? There will be a lot of Australians who will object to taking responsibility for this as their ancestors were not even Australia then.

Let's get some understanding of immigration patterns in Australia. Right now, there are over 7 million foreign-born Australians, which equates to about 28% of the population, the highest in the OECD besides Luxembourg and Switzerland; about 2.5 million were born in Asian countries; over 7 million people have immigrated to Australia since 1945, out of a population of 24 million, and this doesn't include children of those immigrants; a total of 165,000 convicts were sent to Australia, which is roughly equal to the number of immigrants accepted to Australia each year at present; Even with the 1850s gold rush boom in immigration, when Australia's population grew rapidly, the number of immigrants pales in comparison to the number of immigrants even in the last decade; at federation, the population was below 4 million; by 1950, Australia's population was still only 8 million; now it is over 25 million; Australia accepts over 180,000 immigrants each year, which is nearly 1% of the population.

Even if we fall for the trap of the "sins of the father" kind of argument, for all descendants to take responsibility for the actions of their ancestors, which is absolutely absurd, the number of immigrants to Australia in the 20th and 21st centuries has diluted these numbers massively such that any generalisation of present day "white people" is idiotic.

I need clarification of their meaning before confirming this, as everyone should do before shouting "RACIST!!1", but the "we white people" phrase in context is another phrasing that could be argued to be racist under the "all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race" definition.

*Mic drop* from rjd

rjd - BOOM!!

And for all the immigration, Aboriginal people continue to have the worst health outcomes and suffer high levels of prejudice.

Boom indeed.

"It's fair enough to point out the mistreatment of indigenous Australians in Australia's early history and racist practices into the 20th century, but I am wondering who are you referring to here as 'we white people'? "

I'm assuming they mean the people who still benefit from the institutions set up at the time the systematic and institutionalised racist practices were taking place.

For all of the immigration to Australia, we're still an overwhelmingly white (anglo-celtic) country, and our political leaders even more so. They (we) continue to benefit from land and other wealth stolen from the nation's first people and passed down through generations.

The fact that other waves of immigration have come here and then traded in that wealth doesn't diminish that we are still a country run by old white men for old white men.

Aboriginal people continue to suffer some of the worst health outcomes in the western world, and yet many in our country think they're living a life of lazy luxury. This attitude makes its way to the highest levels of Australian politics and allows us as a country to keep making policy FOR indigenous Australians, without actually listening to them.

This isn't accidental. Its a choice, and happens everywhere, including when an Aboriginal person dares to stand up to racism. Rather than listen, we tell them what they should do.

Try listening.

[This isn't accidental. Its a choice, and happens everywhere, including when an Aboriginal person dares to stand up to racism. Rather than listen, we tell them what they should do.

Try listening.]

To who, exactly?

I find that when Indigenous leaders with an alternate view put their head above the paraphet, they get slammed. Think Warren Mundine or Jacinta Nampijinpa Price.

These are complex issues.

["We white people"]

Half of all Australians were either born overseas, or have at least one parent born overseas. I dare say in Melbourne and Sydney, it would be much more than half.

Of the remaining half of Australians whose parents were born here (like me), how many of us married someone whose parents were born overseas (I did). My daughters grandparents share three countries of birth. She's pretty typical for someone born nowadays.

So, I find the whole idea of “we white people” to be mostly irrelevant.

We live in one of the most diverse places on earth. We simple don’t have an ethnic “majority” in the same sense that other countries do.

And back on Simmons.

Kane Cornes is the latest little drama..... Very sad to see Simmons running around picking fights from his smartphone. If you read the comments on facebook, you'll see how many fans he’s lost. Terrible- both for his personal brand and for basketball. Really hoping he develops some maturity, and fast.

"We live in one of the most diverse places on earth. We simple don't have an ethnic "majority" in the same sense that other countries do. "

Except that we do. This country is still far more white than all other backgrounds combined.

"Half of all Australians were either born overseas, or have at least one parent born overseas."

And the largest (by far) contributors to that? The UK, Ireland and New Zealand.

"I dare say in Melbourne and Sydney, it would be much more than half"

Yeah probably, and in the some parts of the country, close to zero.

The Crown post was an immature kid who has a little too much self importance and money and the person he accused of being racist was in fact a person of colour; it (the post)actually makes no sense when you isolate that incident, it did look like he was trying to find a situation to garner attention with. I think aussies have put him in the Nick Kyrgios flog box as a bloke. The same people love Eddie Betts and Patty Mills because they are humble, successful genuine good blokes not flogs. Hawthorn captain Stratton a white male got media attention for being a flog and pinching, he apologised for being a dick and no more was said. Aussies call out d-heads, it may be that simple

["Half of all Australians were either born overseas, or have at least one parent born overseas."

And the largest (by far) contributors to that? The UK, Ireland and New Zealand]

Not true, Ireland isn't even in the top 10.

China and India are 3rd and 4th. Vietnam, Phillipines and Malaysia also in the top 10.

And that's from 2011. 8 years later, things would be getting even more diverse.

Simmons and Cornes? Simmons put up an instagram meme making fun of Cornes. Come on mate, you've gotta grow a thicker skin...

As political commentators we all make pretty good basketball fans. Maybe we should leave it that way.

2016 figures- Australians born overseas

A million Australians born in India or China.....

UK 17.7%
NZ 8.4%
China 8.3%
India 7.4%
Phillipines 3.8%
Vietnam 3.6%

Sri Lanka now in the top 10.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1819/BornOverseas

"Not true, Ireland isn't even in the top 10.

China and India are 3rd and 4th. Vietnam, Phillipines and Malaysia also in the top 10. "

Apologies, I treated the UK & Ireland as a block.

It doesn't change anything. There's a few million of our 23 odd million population who are not from European heritage. To argue that doesn't represent a majority is absurd to the extreme.

Did Stratton have a bunch of political journalists telling him he needs to leave the country?

I think if Ben had said "I made a mistake, how could that guy be racist against me when he is in fact a POC" it would have died and so would the commentary, like Bad Boy Nick, he dug in and was stubborn, then stormed out when Campbell Brown joked about Crown not the actual incident (Brown was laughing at himself being denied entry-He is a white male), any aussie that makes a mountain out of a mole hill when wrong inevitably cops it, particularly in the media. Aussies really like Patty Mills, Eddie Betts, Ash Barty, Jason Day, they just do their thing and we love them for it and Ben was definitely in that space with the media before this, they had accepted but not liked the fact he changed his mind about the exhibition games. Jones and Price are dickheads too, people know that and they in fact joke about the fact most aussies think that. You can actually get your point across in Australia by being humble, Patty educates he doesn't scream, there is a difference, i hope Patty takes Ben aside and teaches him how to spread the message

[There's a few million of our 23 odd million population who are not from European heritage. To argue that doesn't represent a majority is absurd to the extreme.]

Cram, my daughter proves why you're looking at this incredibly simplistically.

She was born in Australia, as were both of her parents. She’s not part of the half who were born overseas or have a parent who was.

Her father’s family has been in Australia for many generations and originally hailed from Europe. Her mother’s parents were born and raised in two different overseas countries (Non - European) and both moved to Australia at around the age of 20. English is their second language.

Is my daughter of "European" heritage? No. She’s got a mixed heritage. Half Anglo/European, half non.

My daughter is probably just as typical of the average Aussie as I am. Who’s part of the majority- me or her? What IS the majority, exactly? Is it defined as "the biggest individual group" or is it "over 50%"?

People can’t easily be “categorised” these days. Euro/Non Euro/Minority/Majority. We’re a multicultural society made up of diverse people. We need to make room for nuance in these discussions.

Except with, ya know, stats which show that the majority of Australians are still from an anglo-celtic or European descent.

I'm not arguing that this is changing (for the better), but to argue that this isn't the case right now is absurd, even for you.

It's not about where your parents are from or what you look like. It's whether you face prejudice on a daily basis for something you can't control.

That's where the understanding needs to come from. Simple.

"hope Patty takes Ben aside and teaches him how to spread the message"

Seeing as the discussion here seems to be trending towards the treatment of indigenous Australians and the perceived differences between the action of Simmons and respected indigenous athletes, does anyone have any insight into Ben's involvement (if any) with the indigenous community apart from funding the Goodes doco?

[Except with, ya know, stats which show that the majority of Australians are still from an anglo-celtic or European descent.]

I don't think you can prove that.

Looking at my daughter, you may think she's of European heritage. Looking at the "stats' you may think she's of European heritage- she was born in Australia, as were both of her parents.

Except, she's not.

I don't think Australia even keeps statistics of where your grandparents were born? It's not on birth certificates.

It's not asked in the census, is it?

Besides, even if you can prove that say, 60% of Australians are of "European descent", what does that prove exactly? 60% of hardly a swashbuckling majority.

Europe itself is very diverse, too! I imagine the Greek and Italian populations of Australia may take offense at you lumping them in with the English as some kind of monolithic group.

Oh good, now you're gonna change goal posts now too? "Ok its a majority, but not a BIG one"

If you think Australia is an ethnically diverse place compared to other nations, you need to travel more. The fact that your most reasoned argument is "look at my daughter!" shows you need to get outside your own bubble.

"i hope Patty takes Ben aside and teaches him how to spread the message"

Yep, this one gets trotted out all the time too. "he didn't protest properly!" is another example of white privilege, with the ridiculous narrative behind Colin Kaeperniks supposed disrespecting the flag being the perfect example

that Comment has NOTHING to do with not protesting properly, Patty educates and is not a flog, is humble and understands the audience he is talking to, Ben it appears created something out of nothing on social media knowing it would create a storm, storm created then realised "shit the person i accused is actually a Person of Colour" there is a difference between natural and contrived and Patty has the natural in spades, the other is looking to get a doco into the states, you ask people to listen but you are not listening.

Whenever there is no counter you go with white privilege, so answer this question can a person of colour be racist against another person of the same colour about their colour, if the answer is no then you agree with me

Its everything to do with it ANON.

There's clearly a way of protesting that white people are happy with and another way that clearly puts them in the "flog" territory. You're saying there's only one acceptable way, and that's the way that makes you feel comfortable.

[If you think Australia is an ethnically diverse place compared to other nations, you need to travel more.]

I have travelled plenty and yes Australia is a very ethnically diverse place.

That's one realisation that’s hit me on virtually every overseas holiday I’ve been on!

The data shows this- Australia is the 3rd most multicultural country in the OECD!

LV.... the greek and italian's don't get the same level of racism and bigotry thrown at them as POC do. What's the point you're trying to make?

It's not a statistical game.

That is actually surprising, I'll give you that. It should be noted, however, that the majority of the other countries in the OECD are traditionally emigrant countries, as opposed to immigrant countries. If the majority of your travel has been to these countries I can see why you remain in your bubble.

There's clearly a way of protesting that white people are happy with and another way that clearly puts them in the "flog" territory. You're saying there's only one acceptable way, and that's the way that makes you feel comfortable.

CRAM they are too different ways of getting the same solution, one is education based which Patty does and one is creating a racist interaction that just can't be true. i am not uncomfortable or comfortable about the Simmons issue, i think he went with it, realised how it couldn't be because he was accusing a person of colour and then simply won't say he got it wrong.
I grew up watching Nicky Winmar at Victoria Park against Collingwood, as a youngster that made me uncomfortable.
I just think it was done incorrectly by Ben, doesn't mean that he shouldn't say there is a problem, but why not just say "I am funding Goodes doco, these are the reasons i am doing it and there is a problem" he quotes the Goodes doco in relation to uncomfortable conversations in that deleted post which brings me to the conclusion it was on his mind but spare a thought for the guy he falsely accused.
Patty is fully educated and genuine, doesn't seek the limelight but we all know about the work he does. Simmons grew up in and around the East and knows full well that the majority of his micro community was mixed culture and he was accepted, i think he tried to get the conversation happening and has done but for the wrong reasons which is where the flog box comes in. would be great if he would explain what actually occurred that night, novel approach i know but he just hit delete instead

^there are two

[That is actually surprising, I'll give you that. It should be noted, however, that the majority of the other countries in the OECD are traditionally emigrant countries, as opposed to immigrant countries. If the majority of your travel has been to these countries I can see why you remain in your bubble.]

It's only surprising if you have this in built assumption that Australia is a racist backwater full of xenophobes.

Australia has had a constant stream of arrivals from all over the world, ever since WW2. People born in the 1950's are now grandparents. Ever since probably the 1970’s, it’s been very common to marry someone from another culture.

This has resulted in the mixed, multicultural society we now have. Which again, the data proves unequivocally is one of the most diverse places on earth.

[LV.... the greek and italian's don't get the same level of racism and bigotry thrown at them as POC do. What's the point you're trying to make?]

The University of Western Sydney has done work in this area.

This kind of data is always open to interpretation, and certain parts of the media have used their work to suggest Australia is an overtly racist place. But in my view, their data actually illustrates how tolerant Australia actually is.

Not that we can't improve, of course. But overall, we're doing OK.

And- the long term trend is up. Don't forget that either.

No, its only surprising in that those (mostly European) countries haven't got higher numbers in the culturally diversity indicators yet. The argument that Australia being ranked higher on a list of cultural diversity against countries that have had up to thousands of years of homogeneity means that Australia doesn't have a white ethnic majority is still absurd.

"But overall, we're doing OK."

Says the white guy

[Says the white guy]

Therein lies the problem.

We resort to discounting someone's view- which is based on data and interpretations of data- because of the colour of their skin.

My in laws were born overseas and they're definitely not white. If they think Australia's doing OK too, is that an acceptable opinion?

Yes, of course it is! Because the validity of someone's view depends on the colour of your skin.

Ah, this is so dumb, it'd be funny if it wasn't borderline tragic.

When your view, as a white guy, is that Australia doesn't have much of a problem with racism, is directly contradicted by people who experience it on a daily basis, yes, your opinion is going to be discounted.

I'm happy your in laws have not experienced it, but as I've said previously, you may need to get outside of your own bubble to truly understand it

Not many people in Australia experience racism on a daily basis.

17% of Australians have experienced racism in the last 12 months. (According to the study by Western Sydney University)

And that includes people who experienced one instance of racism in the past 12 months.

Yes, 17% is too much, but it's not like huge numbers are facing racism every day. That's simply wrong.

Also, racism goes both ways. My family experienced racism at my own wedding reception, from one of my in laws friends. Such is life. Unfortunately, racism is normal human behaviour.

We must keep educating and improving. It's just silly that so many people want to cast Australia as a racist place when it's clearly one of the most diverse places on earth. With that diversity, comes acceptance of minorities.

"Not many people in Australia experience racism on a daily basis."

Oh ok thanks.

"17% of Australians have experienced racism in the last 12 months"

So basically the majority of Australians who don't look white then yeah?

"If your default response is to dismiss historical atrocities, you continue to be part of the problem. "

That's another tired old argument. Nobody was dismissing the historical atrocities. We can't change the past, but we can change the future. Real change is about making policies that work. What policies are failing? What policies do you suggest will help here?

Trying to get all of one race in a country joining in a self-flagellation exercise doesn't do anything. It just heightens racial divides, reinforces useless stereotypes, and doesn't do anything to actually help.

When will people realise that relying on identity politics is counter-productive? You are only creating an environment for MORE white nationalists. You are going to get even more extremism as bounce-back. The rise in the far-right has come from this kind of language, "white men". Yes, you can suggest that the people who have the greatest wealth are disproportionately "old white men", but how exactly is that productive to point out? There are far, far more poor old white men. The identity politics within that argument fails to achieve anything. We need a system that creates opportunities, regardless of gender or race. What's the term, upward mobility? I'd say, on a world scale, Australia does a very good job of this. Some measures put Australia only behind 4 Scandinavian countries.

Cram, it's true that the statistics relating to Aboriginal health outcomes are terrible. The Australia government has been active, but not particularly successful, in creating policies to address these problems. There are also special policies, only offered to Aboriginal Australians, for extra help via affirmative action, welfare and other programs. As far as opportunities for upward mobility, these should theoretically help. We can take responsibility as a nation for fixing the countries *present day* problems, including problems related to the Aboriginal community. When you say "try listening", I assume you have been listening to solutions to this. I'm curious to hear these actual policies you might have heard about that address *present day* issues.

This preoccupation with racial responsibility and identity politics is not particularly helpful. It actually ends up creating more problems because identity politics is destroying the credibility of the left, resulting in disillusioned left moderates (the base of the left), and feeding the far-right movement. The rise of identity politics has coincided with a rise in right-wing nationalist governments in the West. Just a coincidence?

"Did Stratton have a bunch of political journalists telling him he needs to leave the country?"

I don't know anything about Stratton, but Simmons has the disadvantage of appearing more American and therefore somehow less Australian to some. He's shown going around wearing a large gold necklace around his neck with an entourage, etc, but crucially, with a significant American accent. For whatever reason, Australians either don't like or make fun of Australians that adopt American accents. Even on the national team many years ago Simmons was nicknamed "the American". Hint: it's not just because he has an American father.

That said, the calls for Simmons to go back to America are just idiotic.

So, 80% of Australians "look white", and the only type of racism that exists is white people being racist to non white people?

"The rise in the far-right has come from this kind of language, "white men""

Yeah you're right. Best keep the status quo that protects the feelings of these men at the expense of all others right?

"When you say "try listening", I assume you have been listening to solutions to this. I'm curious to hear these actual policies you might have heard about that address *present day* issues."

It starts with self determination. Stop creating policies for them, and invite polices from them.

Which ever way you cut it LV, my background is heavily (non english) European (both parents born there), and I have never faced any real racism in my life.

POC do face racism. A lot. From flat out being called names and demeaned in public, to things like Ben was alluding to (being profiled at a venue).

"We're all immigrants," doesn't cut it as an argument

[The Greeks and Italians were slagged off like you wouldn't believe in the fifties and sixties, I would hope we've moved on from there. Some Australian terms just to remind a few. Wog, dago, slant eyes, geeks, black bastards, chinks etc.]

And now it occurs a lot less.

We still need to get there with some groups in the community- the most being POC and indigenous.

"So, 80% of Australians "look white", and the only type of racism that exists is white people being racist to non white people? "

I'm one of these people. Much like your kid (ha, good luck getting that image out of your head). I have grandparents on one side from non Euro background, but my parents were both born and raised Australian. I appear to be completely European (to most) and therefore I fall into that 80%.

Thanks for putting that disturbing image into my head Cram!

I don't agree that 80% of Australians "appear" European though. Not in my suburb, my workplace, my city, my life.

The Australian government actually spends $2.08 on every Indigenous person for every $1 spent on a non Indigenous person. According to a 2014 productivity commission report.

So, it's not for lack of trying to "close the gap". Clearly things aren't working.

[For Cram only]
Cram, as a personal aside, I think we are actually quite like-minded in many fundamental ways politically, as our discussions going back many years have indicated. I respect you as a genuinely well-intentioned good guy. However, your language in this thread ("old white men", "says the white guy", "makes you uncomfortable", etc) makes me think you've been influenced far too much by the Twitter SJWs. They are a very loud minority, creating influential echo chambers on Twitter. There are also equally loud minorities on the far-right creating influential echo chambers at the other end of the spectrum. What do they both have in common? Intolerance. THis is especially hypocritical on the far-left. I plead with you to think about focusing on your core principles and how following the path of SJWs will inevitably conflict with those core principles. Be especially wary of using the empty rhetoric of identity politics. This obsession with racial and gender labels doesn't translate into meaningful policies. It helps blame and divide, for what actual purpose?

[I don't agree that 80% of Australians "appear" European though. Not in my suburb, my workplace, my city, my life.]

I also don't agree that only whites are racist.

People from ethnic minority groups can be brutal in their racism towards other minorities.

This is improving, and will continue to improve. It's just the self loathing of some that I find silly.

"It starts with self determination. Stop creating policies for them, and invite polices from them."

Sounds great. You have been listening to them, right? What do they suggest?

"Thanks for putting that disturbing image into my head Cram!"

Ha, you're welcome.

"I don't agree that 80% of Australians "appear" European though. Not in my suburb, my workplace, my city, my life. "

Again, get out of your bubble. There are studies which show people largely tend to overestimate the number of people who aren't like them in their region/country. For example, ask a lot of Australians what % of the population is muslim and you'll often hear answers quoting upwards of 10% when its less than 3%. Melbourne is a very multicultural city. The rest of Australia (aside from Sydney) less so.

"Sounds great. You have been listening to them, right? What do they suggest?"

What good would telling me be?

"[For Cram only]"

I appreciate what you're saying, but I cannot ignore what I see and hear. Not on twitter but in person. I see overt racism regularly and passive racism almost daily. I see and hear sexism and misogyny regularly.

I see a government made up of old white men who make policies that directly benefit other old white men. To suggest otherwise would be disingenuous.

Terms like "identity politics" are thrown around just as freely by people protecting power as you accuse others of using terms like "white privilege".

While people pretend that these issues don't exist or people are being just too sensitive and should just get over it, there's a need to keep having these conversations.

Cram, what are some examples of overt racism that you've seen recently? And passive racism?

Someone on a tram telling another to speak English.

Someone constantly looking at the Aboriginal man next to him to much he moved.

Also overhear a lot of "jokes", see people closely clutching bags when certain ethnic groups approach. Even people I actually know say things that perpetuate stereotypes of ethnic groups without even thinking about it.

Cram is totally on the money here and gave really good examples.

For someone like Ben Simmons those things have been happening multiple times a day for his life.

"there's a need to keep having these conversations."

Absolutely agree that it's valuable to have these conversations. This involves open and reasonable discussions. While racism definitely exists in Australia, and it's still too common, I think the vast majority of Australians detest racism. The media loves racism stories. It's dubious racism and claims of inherited racism that seems to generate the most polarised debate. The stories about racism on public transport rarely have people defending them.

As for identity politics, I'd suggest an amendment to your statement about identity politics and power: the expansion of identity politics on the left helps the people in positions of wealth (and therefore power) who are typically on the right. Identity politics moves the focus moves away from class differences and class-based politics. This makes it easier for right-wing politicians to maintain policies that protect their wealth. Trump is a classic example of someone who successfully appeals to a working class base in superficial ways, uses the anti-PC movement to gain support, all the while supporting policies that actually increase wealth inequality (assisting the rich). Identity politics is both the perfect distraction and a provides fuel to maintain support. It's great for tribalism. Moderates are increasingly talking about identity politics for a reason: it is toxic!

"I think the vast majority of Australians detest racism"

They'll say they do, but all too many fall into the "I'm not racist but..." crowd.

People don't see their negative stereotyping of entire ethnic groups as being racism. They think people should be able to "just take a joke" or "stop being so sensitive". They might even step in and help someone who is the victim of overt racism, but still make a "harmless joke". This is kind of the whole point. "I detest racism, but I don't see THAT as racism"

I just re read that and I want to make clear, I don't think the majority of Australians are actually racist. Far from it. I think, however, there is a disconnect between how we see ourselves and the things we say and do. Same with the way we treat the opposite sex, people of a different religion, country, sexuality. Nobody thinks they are a bigot. But there are plenty out there, so self reporting doesn't work in this situation.

So just to clarify Ben lied about being racial profiled/racist behaviors of crown security?
(Security guard has been confirmed as a person of color!)

We give him a free pass cause he is a celebrity and half caste? Or we blowing this into more than it should be? Perhaps Ben should apology to Crown & the security and we should all move on.

Fair examples Cram

"People don't see their negative stereotyping of entire ethnic groups as being racism. They think people should be able to "just take a joke" or "stop being so sensitive"."

Humour is a tricky topic. Does the same objection apply to derogatory jokes about men/women? How about redheads/blondes? Fat people? Bald men? Jews/Christians/Musims? How about Irish/Scots/etc? Etc. How about irreverent jokes that use racism to make fun of racists?

If the core principle is to not like jokes that put down others, fair enough, oppose these kinds of jokes, but we are heading into dangerous territory when we limit free speech and police jokes.

I tend to support Ricky Gervais when he said, "The only time I'm offended by a comedian is when they apologise."

Most of this conversation hasn't been about humour RJD

Any talk of racism needs to consider Melbourne and Sydney separately from the rest of the country, or Victoria and NSW separate from the other states. The recent elections showed the big divide between the two.

People in Melbourne and Sydney would probably cope better with knowing that mainland Chinese-born Australians have most likely overtaken NZ-born to now be the 2nd-biggest immigrant group behind those from the UK, with Indian-born catching up fast.

"Most of this conversation hasn't been about humour RJD"

Thanks for pointing that out, Greggo. Perhaps you can be thread captain here to keep us on the topic that you like. Most of this thread hasn't really been about Simmons too. Humour was mentioned as casual racism. Did you also forget the Simmons incident about a joke?

Happy to be thread captain if you like mate. Just let me know.

My point was singling out humour is a lot different to our discussion about racism in general, and should be considered such.

Fair point.