I didn't think Cotton should've been any close than third too many bad games but I would've had Ware winning over Bogut.

Bogut being able to beat either big from melb or Perth seems to be irrelevant in this argument.

Thats part of the issue with the voting system.

The fact cotton scored so low doesn't necessarily mean others intentionally voted him lower than he deserved. As ware and Bogut absorbed some of those votes... But

The numbers do prove that some voted him as the 4th option in the poll.

Would love to know who those were. I'd be willing to bet gaze was one of them giving him 2 votes.

Ouch... I can't believe so many of our assistants voted for Warne.

Luckily we didn't give him high enough votes to get into the top 3.


3 votes per team. Each a 5,4,3,2,1

Coach. Assistant coach. Captain.

There are alot of votes missing between the top 3. Ware cotton and Bogut were all being robbed of deserved votes by people.

Ok- so NBL site is wrong- not 321.

So 360 total votes. Being 45 * 8. Or 15*3 by 8 clubs. Or 24*15.

Max possible votes for one player is 120. Being 24 * 5.

Bogut, Cotton and Ware got 225 votes between them.

Fair enough- it seemed like a 3 horse race to most of us.

Voting should be done after the season though.

Correct top 3. I'm a little surprised by the vote tallies though.

Next season I'd like to see all the votes published.

It just means that out of the 288 votes that would have gone to the top 3

Only 227 were awarded to the actual top 3.

Doesn't seem like all that much. But it's basically 1/5 did not vote for 1 of cotton ware or Bogut as top 3.

Given many would have. That number becomes higher. So there were definitely several teams/individuals that did not vote for those 3.

That doesn't necessarily imply any wrong doing. Some people may have voted for Trimble or long or Patterson higher than one of those 3. Would anyone particularly blame them... Not really.

But without knowing the votes. It is always going to lead to conspiracy theories. Personally I do prefer this system, but it's still majorly flawed. Especially from a fan perspective. If the votes were public. It would be much less of an issue

Glad to see Bogut came rightfully first.
The NBL got the voting right.Just a lot of fans out there that believe everything is about one club.
You may be top, hopwever not everything runs your way.
#brycecameturd

Can't vote for own teammate at all?
Ok- changes my calcs

makes sense.

it is abundantly
clear cotton or ware should have been MVP

Just don't know how folks can argue with this selection. Cotton, Ware, Bogut, take your pick, but it's not like LK just gave it to Bogut - there's a clear process behind it, and Bogut won.

When you factor in both sides of the ball I think it's more than fair, but I wouldn't have been shocked if Ware or Cotton had won either.

If Sydney finished top of the table then maybe.

But Sydney finished 3rd on the table and they're loaded with talent.

Bogut isn't even the best Center in the league this year with respect. Long had a better season IMO.

I cant stand Perth but Cotton is clearly the MVP of the league. Take him out of Perth and they don't make the top 4.

Anyway seems to be a product of a bad voting system so no point harping on.

Sydney finished with the same record as Perth. And Long had a slow start and doesn't give you much outside of offense. Bogut is a better player than Long without a doubt, and also shut Long down when they played each other. Long doesn't deserve to be in the discussion.

I don't really understand how anyone can say Bogut was an undeserving winner.

Perhaps people just overrate scoring and don’t value the little things that win basketball games too.

Or perhaps people just don’t like Bogut?

If watching him didn’t convince you, what about the stats?

Led the league in rebounding by a huge margin (about 2.5 or 3 rebounds more than 2nd). Gaining possession is huge in basketball- teams who are poor at rebounding are unlikely to be successful, unless they’re absolutely brilliant in other areas. Having Bogut on court means Sydney will always be competitive in the air.

Led the league in blocked shots by a huge margin. Almost double the blocked shots of the next person- 2.6 per game. 1.4 was next. Given the way basketball is reffed these days, having over 2 blocks a game in any pro league is very impressive. And just consider how many shots Bogut changes where he isn’t credited with a stat, or think even broader about the overall impact his rim protection has on the game and the decisions that opposing teams make.

Top ten in the league in assists. 3.5 a game, only just behind point guards like Casper and Randle. Of the other bigs, only Kay and Wesley got near him- and they both have more of the ball from the perimeter. Bogut is the best in the league at passing from a standing position in the post. Defense can never fall asleep when Bogut has the ball- anyone who’s open or cutting will find a pass coming their way.

Bogut also scored almost 12 pts a game and shot 56% from the field, with his team winning 18 games.

If you take Bogut out of Sydney, how would they have gone this season?

I think some people just rate flashy guys like Cotton and Casper who hit game winning shots in people's faces (both guys would've been deserving winners too).

Bogut isn't flashy but he gets the job done

Much the same with a guy like DJ Kennedy- I haven't heard many people raving about him. He's not flashy either. But his last third of the season was as good as pretty much anyone in the NBL, except maybe Shawn Long.

Perth won games this season when Cotton missed, didn't they?

No Cotton and Perth are still a good defensive team, a good rebounding team with a proven system. Steindl could play more time and would come off some of those screens that Cotton usually comes off.

Sydney without Bogut would be regularly overpowered, out muscled, and teams would attack the hoop relentlessly against them. They'd be a high scoring team who lost most of their games- a bit like that United team a few years ago who had Kickert playing Centre.

Bogut is a tosser and a Pork Chop.

Getting Pineau (Mr zero minutes and zero defence) to give a speech on his behalf, about defence, was lame.

Angus Beef and DJ definitely had the better of him everytime.

Whereas, no guard can match Cotton - who should be MVP.

It's a good thing some of you guys don't get to vote for awards.

United did a pretty good job of defending Cotton this year.

My point about Steindl was that he's one of the best 3 point shooters going around and if given the opportunity, might show his scoring prowess.

As in, I reckon Steindl could step up and play a bigger role if Perth's roster was reshuffled, a bit like how Barlow stepped up this year after Tai Wesley's departure

[so true. not only does he shoot threes but he also flops onto the floor after shooting threes which for some reason results in him shooting free throws.]

Best comment of this thread

A big reason why Perth now deserve favoritism

Cotton will average about 10 undeserved free throw attempts per game in front of that raucous 13,000 strong crowd

"Sydney without Bogut would be regularly overpowered, out muscled, and teams would attack the hoop relentlessly against them. They'd be a high scoring team who lost most of their games- a bit like that United team a few years ago who had Kickert playing Centre."

Not relevant.

No one in their right mind would play Kickert in Centre. Kings would have an import Centre.

Bogut can not defend the on ball screens or perimeter. Too old and slow. Sure he averages 10 blocks pg, but gives away 10 jumpshots pg.

"No Cotton and Perth are still a good defensive team, a good rebounding team with a proven system. Steindl could play more time and would come off some of those screens that Cotton usually comes off. "

No Cotton and Perth are scoring 40ppg; Their defense would have to be extra special ;)

[No one in their right mind would play Kickert in Centre. Kings would have an import Centre.]

And if Perth didn't have Cotton they'd have a Lisch instead. Another stud import. Ennis, Lisch, Cotton- their number 1 imports are generally good

But that's stating the obvious and misses the point

Even the finished first argument doesn't hold much weight when three teams all had 18 wins. Again, can make a case for all three guys but it's lunacy to argue that one of the three doesn't deserve it - all three did, only one can win though.

wnbl tonite....if i didn't have to guess ....i'd gladly confess....
....it is griffin....

I'm not dismissing Cotton in the slightest. All teams ended up with 18 wins and Ware/Cotton/Bogut were huge parts of that. If you read what I've written in this thread I would be fine with Cotton having won MVP - I actually expected him to win it, to be perfectly honest. I'm just not surprised Bogut won because he was a huge impact on both ends of the court (not scoring - his whole impact on the Kings' halfcourt). I also wouldn't have been surprised if Ware won. They all had strong cases. I'd have ranked them Cotton-Bogut-Ware, and I was surprised that it was Bogut-Ware-Cotton, but hey, it's clear how the voting process works.

A good case could be made for any of those 3. All 3 would've been deserving winners.

I'm also just resisting those who seem upset Bogut won. It's pretty ludicrous.

For the record, although it was a small sample size, Perth did just as well without Cotton this year as with him:

Won 91-86 vs NZ at home Nov 25 (Also missing Martin)
Lost 72-77 at Sydney Dec 6
Won 93-78 in Cairns Dec 31

White and Kay stepped up and averaged about 20ppg in those games. They're both quality players, as Kay's NBL 1st team status shows. Just proves it's silly to claim Cotton was single handedly carrying Perth. He was the biggest single influence on his team and their success- just like Bogut for Sydney and Casper for United- but it's ridiculous to claim he was a lone hand or something.

i.e. cotton is good but not actually that valuable for winning games.

We often have these arguments.

It's not the first time either.

Few years ago it was Ennis, Goulding and Clarke with many expecting Ennis to win, but Clarke won. Each of them had a strong argument for MVP, can't deny that.

[Of course it would be great if we could simply see the votes published. That would completely remove any stigma of illegitimacy, allow the fans to clearly understand how the result was arrived at, ans also expose any cockhead votes.]

There's probably only a small handful of people who think the MVP result is illegitimate

And they're all anonymous posters on internet forums.

There are always those who think it makes them appear smart, and/or morally superior, to agree with the official result. Such people add nothing to the discussion.

Then there are those who just like to be dickheads and pick on anyone with a dissenting view. Same same.

Then of course there are those who consider that the favourite was Cotton, and therefore turn this into yet another Wildcats bashing thread. Again, no value.

Take those people out of the discussion, and who seriously thinks this is a correct result?

The idiocy of some people has no boundaries... The process behind MVP voting is pretty transparent, how can it be rigged?

I'll be generous and say that the Wildcats have a loyal and passionate fanbase and Bogut in his 'feud' with Angus Brandt had become to them a target of vitriol and hostility and that is playing a large part in the somewhat childish reaction to Bogut winning MVP and the ensuing belief their guy Cotton was robbed.

If Ware had won MVP this conspiracy theory/illegitimacy nonsense likely wouldn't be happening. It's got more to do with Bogut (the enemy) winning than Cotton being passed over.

Cotton won fan's mvp. He did it despite NSW has more fans and any social fan would most likely choose a Sydney player.

Fan's MVP should be the award players go for, as it's voted by people passionate about the sport, anc are not too directly involved in the politics.

OK, now fan's MVP has become the true MVP, got it. Too political having other teams vote for MVP (excluding their own players).

Ffs, why not just have both - a selected MVP and a fan favourite MVP?

Hoopie, they do, but the selected mvp is a farce.

They do.

The notion that players would feel better about winning an award voted on by a group that collectively knows almost nothing about the game than about winning one voted on by their peers is laughable.

The fans should be able to cast a 3,2,1 vote in each and every game during the season. You then tally up the votes for a particular game and the three players with the most votes for that game are given an official score of 3,2,1

Then come gala night each game is displayed on a screen Sydney v Perth 1. BOGUT 2. KAY 3. COTTON revealing one by one for each round with a table showing cumulative votes earnt. Then end of round 18 the winner of the mvp is determined.

Only koberulz can speak for himself

Great idea Trev, how does it work, an anonymous internet form? Ballot boxes at the arena? An sms message to a 1-800 number? Anything to take the power away from the knowledgeable professionals currently voting for the wrong guys.

Cotton won fan's mvp. He did it despite NSW has more fans and any social fan would most likely choose a Sydney player.

Fan's MVP should be the award players go for, as it's voted by people passionate about the sport, anc are not too directly involved in the politics.

I'm fine with the fan's MVP award, but not pretending like it means more than the actual MVP. And I'll happily admit that my opinion of Aylen is my own, and the players and coaches around the league might feel exactly opposite to me. And they'd know more than I do about it, sure.

I have a hypothetical. If you swapped Bogut and Long how do you think the Kings and Breakers would have performed. not much to do with MVP but I'm interested in peoples opinion.

I'm all for the award as selected by the fans, even though it’s based on 'entertainment’ value (ugh).
I’m all for one based on votes by ‘knowledgeable people’. But who’s going to have a better understanding of the game and the impact of the players without skewing the votes seems to be the issue. Surely it would be the coaches who would be more objective than the players who are caught up in the emotion and are just focused on their immediate surroundings.

Have 3 awards:
MVP voted on as at present but allowing teams to vote for their own players
Players’ award, voted on by all players
Fans’ award, cos we want to maximise and reward fan involvement cos it is critical to revenue

I would think that the coaches’ one would be voted on every game, the players’ at various points during the season to make it accurate, and the fans’ one only at the end of the season. If the fans’ one gets skewed by the size of the team’s market, so what? At least there will be a greater number of fans involved in the voting.

Facebook voting after each game!

We could have a fans mvp won by the team with the most fa....oh, wait a minute!

I'm sure players would rather win fans mvp than the real thing which is clearly rigged

I reckon a few Cats fans are drowning in the hate Bogut pool, and are equally butthurt by losing their money after getting on Cotton at $7 pre season

I took that bet too, but fair's fair, Bogut deserved to win. As would Cotton....

Sorry, typo above. Cotton is the real and only MVP cos he's the fan MVP. My bad.

Think because of his name he got the award, you can't comment on his achievements. Longley got a threepeat with Jordan and for me is the most successful player to play overseas.

Bogut is arogant no deniying that, might be funny for him but would he pull a stunt like that at a nba event?

Had cottons last few games counted would the vote have been different? May not have mattered, was always a three horse race. But imagine a brownlow medal that failed to include 3 rounds of performances.... besides coach of the year may have been the biggest embarrassment for the league.

The votes failed to count two games, one of which was Cotton's worst game of the season.

[LV, do you think they got the voting right in the coach of the year award?]

Check coty thread for my response