Didn't school holidays finish?

#NOHOMO?

Someone got sticky jocks thinking about his favourite player.

Damo is my second favourite player...Vlahov will always be the ultimate Wildcat

Jocks just got stickier then

This thread is DAZzling!

Well its true that Martin is incredibly popular with Perth Fans.

And he's perhaps unique in that his unparalleled defensive efforts have allowed him to hold down a starting PG gig, despite his offensive liabilities.

Once a Sydney Spirit, always a Sydney Spirit.

Also, if you go back 4-5 years the league was floundering and only Perth and NZ had any cash or decent management.

"His offensive skills are woeful."

The guy is consistently amongst league leaders in assists and is usually close to the best offensive rebounding guard in the competition. While shooting has been a weakness some seasons, he has also been in the top 10 for league three-point shooting three times in his career, all of which were championship years.

I respect Martin's tenacity, but it has to be said that there's no other player in the NBL who gets away with the type of contact that Martin does on the perimeter, especially during his prime years.

I think he's a better offensive player than he gets credit for though. He's a bit of a punt returner from deep - either a make or a horrible miss - but his floater has been money for years.

8 championships. That is all.
4 of those with Martin.

I don't see the logic of saying playing on 4 cashed up championship teams makes him some super player. What if he'd played for the Kings instead?

I think Martin's limitations have been lack of consistency as an outside shooter and ball handling.

As paul implies, when he's had a good year, so have Perth. While he's been top 10 in 3 point shooting a few times (40%+ in 4 years), he's 32% for his career. So he's been pretty bad in the other years. In addition, he's a 63% career free throw shooter (50% last year) and only averages 6.6 points per game.

It's important to recall that he hasn't needed to be a high scoring point guard. More of the McDonald or Smyth type but taking fewer shots per game than them. The key difference from those players is probably his ball handling. Unlike those players, he's not an elite ball handler. They could get into the paint, create their own shots and draw fouls. Martin doesn't have that.

I can just see Isaac pulling his hair out over this thread

Definately onboard with the Ennis and Prather comment

It's not so much about anyone creating space for him, though those two are good penetrators, because opposition teams give him that space. In 2010 he had his best shooting year (49% from deep) with Stephen Weigh as the small forward.

With Damo it's a mental thing I reckon, once he gets on a bit of a roll his shot keeps dropping, when he starts the year poorly from outside it often continues.

"I don't see the logic of saying playing on 4 cashed up championship teams makes him some super player."

If he were a bench warmer, sure, but he has been the most important constant ingredient in Perth's current dynasty. The way he plays is so important to the identity of the team, they simply wouldn't have been anywhere near the same team without him.

That's not to say he's perfect, his weaknesses have been well covered in this thread, but I think the reluctance of many to recognise him as an all-time great stems from the long-held fans view that offence is more important than defence, which isn't the case, both are pretty much equally important.

Surely Mock has RSI after starting this thread and getting so much unwarranted response-- Then I join the party- Doh!

Martin gets away with a bit, but not as much as people think.

Those complaining are generally those who don't like defence. They need to get over it, or stick to watching College ball. Not every touch or brush is an automatic foul.

He does get away with a little, simply because he is so good. If a Ref is unsighted, they assume Martin was clean, because he usually is.

I think the reluctance of many to recognise him as an all-time great stems from the long-held fans view that offence is more important than defence

Indeed.

Damian Martin can hugely influence a game without scoring many points.

He's also an "intangibles" guy- he seems to have an influence that boosts the morale of his entire group. You just know where he is on the court- you need to be constantly aware of him.

Having said that, while Martin is arguably the best perimeter defender ever in the NBL, there are other point guards who have been elite at both ends- like D-Mac or Cedric Jackson in their primes. Casper Ware is a current example of a guy who is very effective at both ends.

He was a key part of 4 championship teams, but he’s been part of a great system where elite imports have led the way.

In my mind he’s probably the ultimate role player. A bit like say, Dennis Rodman or Bruce Bowen in the NBA. I’m just not sure if a role player can be considered an “all time great”. To place yourself in that category, you’d probably can’t be below average at one end of the floor, which his career scoring average - and watching him play- shows that he is.

Andrew Gaze was below average at one end of the floor, he's definitely an all-time great.

Re: Offense, this needs to be teased out a little- since Paul's referred to his assists and 3 point shooting.

He’s below average offensively in terms of starting point guards.
There would’ve been individual seasons through his career where that wasn’t the case, but on the whole that’s a fair statement.

Stats never tell the full story- Martin has played efficiently, and played to his strengths by crashing the boards and not taking too many shots. But he’s played in a system that’s allowed him to play to those strengths.

He’s limited offensively, but it hasn’t hurt his team when he’s had elite MVP Level studs like Ennis, Lisch, Prather and Cotton on the wings next to him.

Look at the current crop of starting NBL PG’s- Randle, Ware, Trimble, Ili, Sobey/Deleon, Cadee, Jackson. Thought experiment- ignore defence completely for a second and imagine basketball is like NFL with constant stoppages so you switch players for every set. Martin is an offense only player. Would you rather have Martin running your offense or most of those guys?

If you were starting a team from scratch, a team in a parallel world who plays offense only- would you pick Martin ahead of most of the NBL’s starting PG’s through the years?

Gaze was indeed below average at one end towards the end of his career- but was that the case in his prime?

Even if that were true- Gaze led the league in scoring 16 times. He was better at offense than Martin is on defense.

Gaze was also The Man on multiple championship teams, whereas Martin has only ever been a supporting role player.

All championship teams need great role players, yes. But being the clear best player on a championship team puts you in a different category.

I guess though, if you're saying Drewy was always below average defensively (I only saw him in his 30's), then that makes him the exception that proves the rule!

Gaze was below average on defence his entire career. He probably could have been better, but the fact he played so many minutes meant he got his rest at that end.

It just comes back to what I was saying earlier, fans judge basketball (and probably sport in general) more on the attacking side than the defensive side. Coaches value them equally.

I think it's only natural that Perth fans and neutral fans "get it" more than opposition fans when it comes to his value. I know that when I'm watching a game as a fan, I tend to pay more attention to my team's players and what they're doing, than the opposition's.
People who don't see it by now likely aren't going to see it at all.
I enjoy my team winning titles so I'm very appreciative for Damo, because he has been instrumental in a lot of them. He's almost the male version of Tully Bevilaqua, other than never reaching the world's top league. Great defender, great leader by example, and great person.

Gaze was also The Man on multiple championship teams, whereas Martin has only ever been a supporting role player.

CG43 was the Sengstock medalist last year but he wasn't The Man on a Championship team.

CG was the 4th most valuable player on that team.

Championships are won over a season.

Damian Martin has more grand final MVPs than Andrew Gaze.

But somehow Gaze was the star and Damo was a meaningless role player?

Not sure where you got "meaningless" from- you were reading, you'd notice I said every championship team needs role players.

I specifically compared Martin to an NBL version of Rodman or Bowen. High praise.

Championships are won over a season- not just the Grand Final.

Man... that stings hard!

D Martin d Martin d Martin. D Martin d Martin. Perfect starting 5