Looks like Oscar retired and took his long service at the right time......

Thank god for the soft cap with money filtering down to lower ranked teams. Oh wait.... don't want to get a $5000 fine for bitching about the boss so I'm going to cut myself off.

Waa. Waa. Waa. If you want a team in your city, turn up and support it. Attendance has been woeful for long enough now. Either pull your weight or get left behind.

Every single city in the league leaves Wollongong in the dust regarding attendance. Ain't good enough to say they want a team; they've got to vote with their feet. It's ridiculously simple

Pretty sure the league could do with a better-attended and better-behaved crowd than Illawarra's

But league doing well and stuff

Sad if so.
I'm the first to say that any new team needs to be financially viable,
but we need these teams to create a viable league. Nobody wants to see a 4 team comp.

Don't mind AFL Hawks taking over the team as long as they are placed in Tasmania.

Leave United as Melbourne's sole team, it's not like they are selling out Hisense every week.

I'm a bit of a lurker here - have been for years - and rarely posted anything because you're all so clever and knowledgable (and often full of **** - but that's entertaining too).

But I'm a HawkHead (before there were HawkHeads a couple of years ago I think I was a normal Hawks Fan) till I die and feel compelled to post this time.

There is all this talk of rumours of the Hawks imminent demise (again) and people blaming the public for not getting to the games. I can't disagree that the attendance seems, compared to other clubs, pretty poor, but what no one seems to acknowledge is the attendance as a proportion of population.

Consider these rough population figures (circa 2015):

Sydney 4,526,479
Melbourne 4,353,514
Brisbane 2,209,453
Perth 1,958,912
Adelaide 1,288,681
Wollongong 292,388
Cairns 147,993
(source https://blog.id.com.au/2016/population/population-trends/latest-population-figures-top-50-largest-cities-and-towns-in-australia/)

* Note I consciously left out NZ as they don't represent a specific city.

I don't have accurate figures for attendance for the clubs - but I understand Hawks average around 2,500 and Perth - considered the strongest support in the league - around 12,000.

Some pretty simple numbering tells me :

Hawks are about 0.8% of the population
Perth 0.6%.

I expect with the exception of Cairns no clubs are hitting a level of engagement above what Perth are achieving, let alone Illawarra.

Before you all go shooting your wise mouths off about how it is all meaningless, I acknowledge that it is irrelevant at the end of the day. The fact remains that the Hawks crowds are smaller than other clubs, and with the cost of running a team it seems on the surface unsustainable in such a small market (I wont start on the broken promises of wealth distribution - I can see both sides of that one).

I think the point I'm making is that there is more to it than just simple comparative numbers and the Hawks are actually doing a decent job of engagement and the people of Wollongong are doing better than most in supporting their team.

Constantly bemoaning the attendance as the issue is frankly naive. There is a deeper issue with the imbalance of funding across the league. Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter.

A second team in Melbourne has failed how many times?

Melbourne is such a popular purchase that LK still holds a team there because he can't unload it.

@Anon 287
"attendance trend over several years is downward"

Yes that is a fair point - but could that speak more to the previous successes than current failures? I'm not disagreeing - its just worth considering as an explanation.

A second team in Melbourne has failed how many times?

League needs teams like hawks and Taipans, can't just have capital cities.

It's not really fair game when United's replacement import was worth more money than Cairns and Illawarras top import.

So the SE Melb Magic didn't exist kobe?

Why? They're nice and there's history, but why can't a league have only capital or at least larger cities?

Sixers owner knew what he was getting in to.

Maybe the question should be how many times have Melbourne teams appeared then disappeared? Building a solid foundation for the one at the moment might be better than rushing another back in.

@ Anotheranon, I love the Hawks and want them to stay where they are but the argument isn't comparing them to anyone else but the Illawarra and Wollongong Hawks and their own history, comparing them to their peaks in sponsorship and attendance and the issue is simply that they lost a few thousand members there and although they had fun teams to watch the fans haven't returned.

When and if they can engage with the former and casual fan to return then we shouldn't see them go, but can they do that?

My argument comes from Townsville and how they sold out home games for over a season straight I think it was and yet the numbers dropped off and whilst I'd have loved to persist with Townsville they died for multiple reasons and Hawks will too if more casuals don't rock up and love it so much that they keep returning and as a Wildcats member I have seen several times people come in for their first game of basketball and love it so much that they become members and that is what I hope happens in Illawarra too

St Kilda and North Melbourne were screwed by the NBL administrators who, from memory, forced them to merge with Nunawading or Eastside or whatever they were called at the time.

I don't think North Melbourne were in financial trouble at the time, as they typically had full houses for Scott Fisher and co.

St Kilda and North Melbourne were screwed by the NBL administrators who, from memory, forced them to merge with Nunawading or Eastside or whatever they were called at the time.

I don't think North Melbourne were in financial trouble at the time, as they typically had full houses for Scott Fisher and co.

Rationalise it any way that you think will make more sense, but when push comes to shove, whether it's because the new ownership pushed the more passionate fans away, or that the team hasn't been engaging with the community as much, or the rent on the WEC is too high and has pushed ticket prices up to a really unreasonable amount (every time I think about going down myself or taking the family down to a game, I check the prices for decently located seats and it's really outrageous), the end result is that they regularly get under 3000 people to games and that's just not enough to sustain them...

The league really dropped the ball with the redistribution of the soft cap $$$ and it really is a stain on the league that has otherwise come a long way, but teams should be able to stand on their own two feet without handouts from clubs...

North Melbourne almost went under in the 1993 offseason. Rebranded themselves to look like Charlotte hornets, brought D-Mac in and won the championship.

Eastside and Southern Melbourne (St Kilda) merged to form the Magic in 1992.

Magic and North Melbourne merged to form the Victoria Titans in 1998ish.

I love the LK bashing. Let's forget the fact there would be no league without him, because some backwards bumpkin town that doesn't even turn up to games might lose the team that they obviously don't care enough about!

Because there aren't enough of them.

To the anon poster that mentioned Brisbane's crowds and questioned a 5000 attendance - they play a few games at the 12000 seat Brisbane Entertainment Center and thats when they got 5000. Brisbane have problems too, but Illawarra is in real trouble right now.

Also, still on the same anon poster who said other clubs are struggling as bad or worse, the Hawks are by far the worst in the league. Aside from Brisbane (who still got bigger crowds even when playing in the much smaller BCC), the other 6 clubs get at least double the attendances that the Hawks do.

You think the NBL would exist with only two teams getting anything that looks like a crowd? lol.

"The league really dropped the ball with the redistribution of the soft cap $$$"

Perhaps strangling them out of viability was the long-term plan.

Without LK, some clubs might be able to spend within their means and still remain competitive, rather than the current plan of

1. Spend money
2. ????
3. Viable league

I feel like some people just don't like progress. Survival of the fittest. Teams that arent strong enough will fall but the end result will be a stronger league.

People can sook about LK all they want but it was that or you'd be watch SEABL on steriods. LK doesn;t get into things to not turn a buck so Hawks are a drain on the league so better they are gone! Its all about overall revenues and regardless of attendance a 2nd Melbourne team makes sense (2 more MU home games to sell out) alos a game in Melb every single weekend!! Great for sponsors and building NBL brand awareness. Even if the hawks sold the joint out every week no one cares or watches them!

Yeah, who needs that foundation club anyway huh? History? Pffft. Lets just keep bringing in new clubs every year and let the struggling ones fall by the wayside. That way the Australian sporting public will take us seriously!

The fact that people believe that 8 clubs can keep up with this spending, let alone the mythical "expansion" is absurd.

Whenever LK is done with this league his legacy will be tossing aside the history of the league and it'll all be for nothing in the end.

At the very least can the hawks haters who want them gone agree that they should stay until there is a team to replace them? A 7 team nbl regardless of revenue is not a win.

Would be a shame if the Hawks have to move from Illawarra due to financial reasons.

There are some synergies with the Hawthorn Hawks nickname per se, but a relocation threatens to dis-engage Illawarra / Wollongong fans from the NBL.

The Illawarra steelers are a good example of fan management. The Illawarra area was already a recruitment area for the St George Dragons. When the NSWRL was expanding, the Steelers came on board for the 1982 season and the 1998 season was their last.

They merged with the Dragons to form St George Illawarra and the Dragons now play home some games in Wollongong each season. Talk to any Gonger and they supported the Dragons pre Steelers, then they supported the Steelers (and Dragons) in the golden age, now they support SGI.

It would be hard to see Gongers support a rebadged team playing out of Launceston wearing brown and gold. I don't think many Cannons fans ended up supporting the Slingers....

I guess at the end of the day, the NBL needs to look at what teams need to be in the league strategically and then plan to achieve that. I think each team pays a fee per year to HQ and if Wollongong really want their team, I could argue with the NBL that as a Foundation Team we've done enough not to pay it.

I really don't think there are any Hawks haters in here, especially wanting any team to disappear, which is saying something, as there is a long history of wanting to bash Hawks teams and fans, but I think most of us have gone through this at one stage or another, so most of us are sympathetic, but considering it's been a few years and crowds are just getting worse there, what else can be done? If they can't manage it themselves, they shouldn't expect to keep getting bailed out by the league...

It's a Foundation Club, which is great, but how long will teams need to struggle before the league can't keep falling behind because of them?

There aren't enough big cities to make the current version of the competition viable IMO, so if they're planning on leaving places like Cairns & Wollongong behind, they'd better get to work quickly on getting additional teams in the big cities.

Holding at 8 teams, and killing ANOTHER club with history, when most of those 8 clubs rely on LK and his mates to prop them up because they cant afford the spending that LK pushes for IS terrible, especially whenever he pulls the pin and it falls over anyway.

At least the Hawks have a chance to rally around their team. Not everybody gets that.

"Sixers new owners are now getting the bills and are not happy either.
Only one person to blame for this and it's LK."

I am confused by this...

The new owners signed off on the budget as part of their due diligence, how can they be 'not happy'? Unless they are in the habit of buying ongoing concerns without looking at the books.

And how is LK to blame or the Sixers' bills? He has no ability to raise purchase orders on behalf of the team.

For those blaming the non-existent league equalisation payments for the Hawks' predicament...

Those payments should not be treated as expected revenue.

It was never even stipulated exactly how much of the luxury tax they would even get.

At best those funds should have been seen as a bonus rather than expected general revenue.

If a team is sitting there expecting these monies, the inference becomes they are purposely fielding a cheap un-competitive team just for the handouts. If team is doing this, why are they in the league?

Those payments should not be treated as expected revenue.

It was never even stipulated exactly how much of the luxury tax they would even get.

"Boo freaking hoo.. Move on. The rest of the world has."

Yeah, that attitude perfectly sums up the Kestleman era of the league. Just keep churning through teams. There'll alwayd be more. Until there isn't

Allowing for Gold Coast and second teams in particular cities, I don't think so.

Also, still on the same anon poster who said other clubs are struggling as bad or worse, the Hawks are by far the worst in the league. Aside from Brisbane (who still got bigger crowds even when playing in the much smaller BCC), the other 6 clubs get at least double the attendances that the Hawks do.

Even if the hawks sold the joint out every week no one cares or watches them!

Melb struggles to support 1 team. It's capacity at Hisense is 3k more than Adel from a population 3 times larger. They are in the Grand Final but have still struggled to sell tickets.

We have seen many second Victorian teams in our lifetime.

KR

The Gold Coast rules the roost in lawn bowls

Regional clubs only have a couple of things going in their favour - strong attendances that keep the league happy, and having somewhat of a monopoly for community engagement (eg they are the only thing in town for locals to support). See Cairns.

For Illawarra, they have failed for many years to draw good enough crowds despite making 2 grand finals in the last decade, and at worst, at least being an entertaining team. Its not like they are not worth watching.

By all accounts they have lost the community. They dont seem to engage as well anymore, and they have a rent agreement with their venue that is unviable and wont win their community over. See Townsville.

If a regional team cant get that support, it becomes very hard to keep them. A struggling big market team still offers more than a struggling regional team. See Brisbane.

LK has never said or implied he wants regional teams out. He's been trying to get a Tasmanian side in. He wants expansion. But if investors aren't lining up to start new clubs or take over struggling one's, then reaching out to parties like the AFL is obviously an option.

Yes the Hawks have a small population. But there was once a time when they were getting 4000 people regularly to their games. Even with less than 300,000 there shouldnt be an excuse to bring in at least 3000-3500 spectators, including free tickets.

Can we all agree that a professional national sporting club should not be drawing the same size crowds as any local WAFL team?

Hawthorn + investor to buy license.

Hawks play 6 Home Games + Preseason in Tassie with remaining home games in Melbourne on alternative weekends to MU with the bonus of now having massive derby games and clear air to promote into Melbourne Market.

TV would like the idea as it still engages the Melb market whilst Tassie Governemtn support the idea and it leverages Hawthorns position ahead of North Melbourne in the lucrative Tassie Tourism/Gov Sponsorship market which as per the tourism numbers release by Tourism tassie is working really well so its a natural partnership that works well for everyone (except Illawarra fans but they don't turn up and worse don't tune in!)

"the city has lost their last team competing in a national competition"

Pssst....heard of the Dragons? They may be a merged team but still playing games at WIN

If Stratford got an offer for $500K he is a business man and takes the cash.

Perhaps he gets his $300K plus a share holding in the new entity.

"Great quote here." Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter." 100% spot on."

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen here.

That's funny Duke Fan, I don't recall the NRL having teams in Adelaide or Perth? Calling that league a national competition is laughable.

The Rugby League competition was split between the traditional NSWRL/ARL and the Newscorp "Superleague" The split only last a little while before they formed the NRL which we see today. The Superleague only ran for one season (1997), then the Rams played one season in the NRL but dropped out.

SA is an Australian Football state so it makes it hard for rugby to flourish. For those who don't understand it, just remember, rugby league is a game for animals, played by animals. Rugby union is a game for animals played by gentlemen.

The Hawks can survive and flourish if managed correctly. It is nonsense to expect the NBL to have
only big city teams. There have been many examples of these teams failing. The most important thing is for teams to have the right model. Perth and Cairns have both been successful but have completely different models. Cairns regularly post a profit as does Perth. The same could not be said for Melbourne, Sydney or Perth. We are headed for disaster if we continue to push up the spend for teams. Over paid players in Melbourne or Sydney inflates the whole market and makes it unsustainable. The Bullets and Sydney drove this in the mid 2000's and the results were a disaster, the league nearly folding, playing one season with 7 teams. Hawks need to do a better job of marketing and engaging their fan base, it is there. More money on marketing the game and teams and less on overpaid players. The Hawks made the finals last year on the back of good coaching, solid Australians and only one high quality import. Don't be fooled by the propaganda the apple may be shiny on the outside but ???

They said to set your budget excluding gate receipts. Not to try and exist without selling tickets. e.g., bank first on the more predictable things.

Like I said, it's poorly argued, but if you can stabilise your club without assuming targets for ticket sales (say, with a great TV deal as your base), that's likely to be more reliable. You can be a pedant on the internet or you can be a bit forgiving with your interpretation and see what they were getting at. Suspect the former is better for my pageviews than your mental health arguing like that day in and out on Hoops.

This was one of the original comments:

"Great quote here." Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter." 100% spot on."

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen here.

Media rights in the NBL? Worth less than the catering budget for one night for AFL commentators

The Bullets and Sydney drove this in the mid 2000's and the results were a disaster, the league nearly folding, playing one season with 7 teams

My life is now complete

<.blockquote>your text here<./blockquote>

remove the dots

This is the correct rugby quote:

Rugby League is a gentleman's game played by thugs.
Rugby Union is a thug's game played by gentlemen.

Media rights in the NBL? Worth less than the catering budget for one night for AFL commentators

"PS, you're such a sour bastard!"

Yep, I get that. Doesn't mean what I'm saying ain't true.

"The $300k debt that another poster mentioned on here was the sticking point for a local Wollongong investor."

I don't get it....if Spenceley has sold and this investor has bought, then the debt belongs to the new investor.

As I understand it, there's Stratford and then a potential new local investor (previously a sponsor) independent of all the Hawthorn stuff. My read of the comments up-page were that the new local is the one disinterested in wearing past debt.

Cram,

Yep, I get that. Doesn't mean what I'm saying ain't true.

"I think it's arguing points from a different angle. Both in talking down the NBL media rights when I'm talking about the model they're aiming for; and in arguing community-vs-premium basis for teams when both may be viable, both are risky, and both have a history of trouble in the NBL."

Fair points. Having said that, its all well and good to aim for media money (it would be silly not to) but in the context of a team not able to keep up with a league that is consistently spending more than it earns, with a media deal that loses it money, to argue that ticket money should be a bonus rather than a foundation a bit rich.

Sorry about the absurdly long sentence

Hawks may be in trouble but it is business as usual. mat Campbell has taken over as Gm from Kim Welch (who was a bust) and is already working behind the scenes. I think the off season will be the usual struggle it always is in Wollongong but eventually they will line up for another season

If Matt Campbell as GM is true then finally Hawks heading in the right direction. KW was a prudish brat who did very little, yea he had his hands tied by previous owner however he had NO prior experience in the role. Lacked the understanding and the desire to actually understand that in a small league competing for sponsorship $$ and bums on seats that you need to engage with the people bringing you $$. Had NO negotiating skills with the stadium (WEC). MC is a hawks legend, Wollongong local and will engage the community to get behind their team once and for all and get bums on seats. Now MC should bring back all the people that were wronged by the previous GM and owner as some decisions were not in the spirit of the club and or region. Hopefully for the club, community and NBL the Hawks can find financial stability, strong front office leadership, committed owners for the long game as we cant have the same headlines every couple of years.

I love the fact that Lk can shut down on screen comments on refs but can't shut down wild posts about anything truth or lies.
Welcome Matty Campbell to the role of GM at the Hawks. Above posts have indicated that those that matter have talked positively to back a continuing Illawarra Hawks

A long time ago both Tasmanian cities had NBL teams but both failed to encourage enough bums on seats so folded. Spruiking that this where an N BL team should come from is simply pie in the sky