National day is fine; the date has changed several times previously so there's no reason why we can’t change it again.

Jan 26th is a stupid day to do it, of all the days this is obvious one not to do.

Arguments people pose against moving:

The day isn’t about invasion it’s about other things - This is a cop out, There is no secret of the connotation and it’s fair that many feel it.

Someone will always be offended no matter what day you choose - That’s crap - we have plenty of days in the year that go uncontroversial, we could move it to any number of days, 30th of Jan anyone?

This should be one of the easier public issues to solve. Next time we shouldn’t be so stupid in the first place!

Agreed with anon Jan 2 is a good date

Separately, I think we should adopt NT's Picnic Day (early August) nationally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic_Day_(Australian_holiday)

Change the date. Too much bad blood (literally) re: the 26th. Celebrate our country on any other historic date, call it whatever. Who cares, let's just eat food, drink beer, and be happy.

A bigger issue is, can we ban Latham from making awful commercials? Actually, can we ban him from being seen and/or heard?

May 8 is the most Australian day to hold it

I'm selfish and therefore don't want my Australia Day public holiday crammed too close to Christmas/New Year, so August sounds great to me. The back half of the year has always needed an extra public holiday.

Agreed we don't need to suffer seeing or hearing Latham

Luuuc makes good point re needing a public holiday on the backend

Sorry Ricey, why May 8th?

Isaac, the picnic day is a good idea. All the public holidays are jammed in around that Christmas time and maybe an August long weekend could spread it.

I do like Jan 1 and I do like the Aussie way of having the holiday on the second, just because....

There are not too many other common days in Australia that the states share. Maybe August 27th - Don Bradman's birthday for the cricket tragics.
September 26 is when Australia 2 won the America's Cup, maybe that's an alternate day. Any boss who doesn't give a day off is a bum.

"Sorry Ricey, why May 8th?"

May 8,m8, mate


You can't have it after New Years, no one will go see the fireworks.

Stop having a foreigner who by birth gets to be our Head of State, become a republic SPECIFICALLY on a day that's convenient and not close to any other major public holidays.

2 birds, 1 stone.

What about becoming a republic and making Obama's president?

What about Proclomation Day?

Just to continue the weird Adelaide/SA business on the forum

If some people want to be offended by it, they are free to do so.

Frankly I don't care what day its on, but celebrating the day our Western ancestors landed is not a bad thing. Australia, the country, is better off for it.

Yes the first people on the land did not fare as well, but we've compensated that through Mabo and the Native Title Act. Billions of dollars have gone towards recognising their title.

all people need to live together and share - do not politicise a celebration.

LOL x 2 at the "did not fare as well" part

Logically speaking I agree with whoever pointed out that the day of federation makes more sense as the one we should celebrate as a nation.
Love the May 8 call too. I think that has my vote.

As long as we remain "girt by sea", we can all be happy.

What country has a more obscure word in their anthem?

"I'm going to evict your family from their property and celebrate the moment annually."

You are applying today's laws back 250 years.

Those settlers believed that they were discovering a new land (Terra Nullius) and did not recognise the deep culture of the natives nor their relationship to the land at that time.

Was it wrong to do so? Perhaps, but consider how the country has grown since then. When can we move on?

The May 8 date is growing on me but I must admit, a holiday in Dec/Jan/Feb in the Aussie summer seems Australian. Australia Day in June with rain seems "un-Australian"

"I'm gonna hazard a guess that it will be easier to move on once we stop rubbing the date of our landing in their faces every year. It really does not seem like a big ask. More like common decency."

No...the outrage will never stop.

If it were, it would have stopped once on 2 other major events.

1) Recognition that Terra Nullius did not apply and the Mabo case was won, opening the door for the Native Title Act and subsequent claims. Billions of dollars have been paid by the Austraian Taxpayer and Mining companies as a result.

2) When Kevin Rudd said sorry on behalf of the country.

On top of this we have taxpayer funded schemes that are ONLY for ATSI persons :

- Community Housing.
- Welfare payments.
- Educational assistance.

We as a nation have already gone out of our way to try and lift the quality of ATSI communities and their lives.

I don't believe we owe them anymore, even token gestures like a change in day.

Australia Day morning should be transformed into a remembrance day or Anzac Day style event whereby past wrongs are solemnly remembered and made right.

And then the afternoon can become an afternoon of Festivals where we celebrate what's great about our nation.

This suggestion, made by John Dickson, is the only one I've heard that paves a sensible middle path on this issue, and the only one that I believe truly has potential to unite the nation.

Whether you personally agree with January 26 or not, it seems pretty obvious that changing it would be divisive in the sense that it would annoy a lot of people for whom January 26 means a great deal- for example, a friend of mine who today posted how he personally became a citizen on January 26.

People are suggesting we appease a growing number of people who want change. All this will do is transfer the angry minority to someone else.

Of course, it'll be impossible to please everyone. But, why not solemnly remember the dark aspects of the past AND celebrate our great nation all on the same day? So, why can't we, as a nation learn to walk and chew gum at the same time?

Don't CHANGE the date. Don't SAVE the date. MAKE the date something better. Transform it.

Ok first all, lets get this out of the way.

Australia Day is one of the top 5 public holidays in this league! I mean country.

I'm telling you now, if you get rid of the public holiday, people are going to be upset.

I guarantee you, the way to solve this problem is to keep January 26th as a public holiday, just change the name. Then add another public holiday on another date.

It's a wavvy win, win!

Whenever I ponder this issue, I can never get Geoffrey Blainey's Great Dilemma out of my mind.

"In a bumper year Australia feeds not only it's own people but the equivalent of more than eighty million people living in nations as far apart as Egypt and China. Australia also supplies hundreds of millions of overseas people with all the coal, iron, other minerals and fibres that they need. One of it's achievements in the last 200 years is to multiply enormously, for the benefit of much of the world, the annual produce of a difficult continent. So we return full circle to that insoluble dilemma: how do we weigh the loss suffered since 1788 by a host of Aborigines alongside the gains made by perhaps one hundred times as many other human beings in Australia and lands across the seas?"

I don't have an answer. There isn't really an "answer" I suppose. It's a moral dilemma really, isn't it?

Taking the land of a people group is not OK- it's not a fair or decent way to act at all. On the other hand, hundreds of millions of people - a great deal of humanity - has benefited from that land.

You could say the world is a better place as a result of the "invasion" or "Settlement"- whatever you want to call it. But of course, not for everyone... Yet, even many Aborigines are thankful for the things that were brought here by the Brits.

It's a tough one.

To phrase the "tough one" in a slightly different way...

- January 26 was a day that ultimately led to a lot of grief and suffering for many indigenous people

and...

- January 26 was a major milestone towards Australia becoming the great place it is today, for many different reasons

Both of these statements are simultanously correct, in my view. And fairly obviously so.

Why can't we acknowledge, celebrate and state both on the same day?

(As in, acknowledge the first statement, and celebrate the second one as we celebrate what Australia is today)

Not a thesis, but it's something I've thought a bit about in the past couple of years.

Went to Europe in 2015, was impressed and excited by the history and then realised how little I knew of Australia's history.

So I read a few history books- from historians of various persuasions including right and left wing.

And I also know people who feel quite passionate about this. For example a guy I used to play basketball with, he runs a business and let his staff work on Jan 26 and take a different day in lieu.

It's fiendishly perplexing I agree.
Do we choose to celebrate as a whole, inclusive nation on
* one of the most divisive days of our history, or
* one of the 300+ other days that aren't a slap in the face
Hmmm

BUT! then think of the consequences of changing:
* calendar/diary printers would have to change their document templates
* the lives of people who became citizens on Jan 26 would be rendered virtually meaningless
* help me out here... there must be so many more...

Are, do-Goodger's, don't you just love them. I hope all of the do-Goodger's who have received any Australia Day honor, hand them back. Oh, no, don't think that will happen.

LV, I dare say the reason we can't is because the indigenous still feel heavily inflicted by it.

Considering the way they've been treated and continue to be, it's unlikely that will change anytime soon.

And I mean, think from their perspective why should they?

Simultaneously in our long history of Australia doing good - we were also committing murder, taking children away, segregating, depriving them of votes & representation.

Do we honestly expect them to be blase about it?

Let's not pretend Australia has cleared the air on this issue, because we haven't.

I think LoveBroker's opinion is very much proof of that. LB's opinion isn't an uncommon one in our community and it lends itself to the same absurdities that raise ire to begin with, such as Australia Day on 26th; Declaration of Terra Nullius etc.

There is this belief that Indigenous get lots of help to the unfairness of others and that it's time to stop being outraged or blaming generations who haven't done anything wrong.

When Australia deprived indigenous of representation, the ability to vote, to shape our system; when we segregated and regulated their opportunities; when we broke their families and instilled an environment ripe for mental health issues, drugs, crime etc - we created problems 1) enormous in cost and 2) impossible to lift to "contemporary standards" within a few generations.

In law and our justice system, we have this concept which is about "providing a means for returning the wronged person to the position they were in before the wrong was done."

The only problem with that is, the damage was so severe, compensation is genuinely impossible. If we were to attempt it, it would crush our economy. We created a cost we can't bare.

So we've got a dilemma - we've got a group of people who were forced into a situation of being in a different class. They can't be adequately compensated, because that would ruin our economy and therefore meaningless to them because they're part of our economy.

But we can't allow the class divide to continue to exist because that in itself comes with huge costs - including prison system, judiciary, policing, health, rehabilitation and other welfare.

The reality is the sh!t the past generation pulled doesn't just stop when we stopped pulling sh!t on them [despite many believing so].

It continues for many generations - hundreds of years

Pretending the cost doesn't exist isn't an option because reality is it does; pretending there's a class of people who should be able to just get themselves out of it after being so heavily oppressed and deprived is simple delusion.

So, past generations screwed up, they screwed up bad. Australia has to live with the cost, we don't have a choice in it.

The best way to not go through this is to not pull the sh!t in the first place.

Can the anon above "not a tough one"

please show their not-tough, succinct, non-thesis length solution.

If majority agree, we'll field you as Presidential candidate.

"do-Goodger's"

Thank you, I have been looking for a new username!

@Luuuc

"To be told to rejoice on Christmas Day is reasonable and intelligible, if you understand the name, or even look at the word. To be told to rejoice on the twenty-fifth of December is like being told to rejoice at a quarter-past eleven on Thursday week"

- G.K. Chesterton

KET, how do the Indigenous continue to be poorly treated?

How can the Indigenous be "returned" to their former position of a couple of hundred years ago? Isn't it also true that many Indigenous are happy that the West settled our country, with the benefits they now enjoy from that? Aren't you claiming to speak for "them" when actually they are individuals and groups of people who have a great diversity of voices?

"KET, how do the Indigenous continue to be poorly treated?"

Not sure if serious...

Even Ken Wyatt thinks there are far more important issues. He is both Abotiginal and sensible. Richard Di Natali - hmm.....

LV:

Continual Poor Treatment:

2 parts from my experience as a defence lawyer:

Part 1 is the legal system - it fails to adjust for indigenous. The system doesn't understand how they culturally communicate, their relationships with one another etc. When you are trying to find fact and gauge responses, this failure to adjust produces a clear disadvantage in actually trying to establish fact, and it creates issues in having a genuine fair trial.

Unfortunately, many/most find themselves having to experience the system.

Part 2 is the environment in which they live. When you represent, you have to understand their lives and their environment. A lot of this is understood for plea mitigation purposes or to understand the narrative of events. Who are their closest relationships, who do they seek guidance from, what is their history, what is their personality, how do they talk, what is their career so on and so forth.

When you get immersed into this, you understand how they actually live, how the system affects them and how far it stems. It's not just an individual or a family, it's entire groups of people, entire towns.

That's just my experience - if you talk to health professionals they'll give their views on why; if you talk people in the education sector you'll find their reasons. The evidence of continual poor treatment goes broad and it goes deep and it doesn't take much scratching on the surface to find it.

If you're challenging continual poor treatment, you're challenging a broad consensus [and significant evidence in respect of health, crime, livability].

Returning to original position:

Perhaps bringing out the legal ideology required better explanation. The concept isn't referring to something like "you lived as a tribe and now you have electricity so how can you say you're worse off?".

Your logic is a little bit like: you took or damaged an object from someone worth $50. They are down that $50. But they have a weekly payment of $300 for employment so they don't deserve their $50 compensation.

Well, no. The person had the right to their object, and when they were wronged they gained the right to be compensated for that object.

So, in this scenario, consistent with how human rights breaches have been treated around the world - is that indigenous ought to have had rights that others had - those rights were taken, causing damage, therefore that should be compensated [therein the problem lies when you cause so much damage you can't possibly adequately compensate!].

Otherwise, if non-indigenous people were deprived of a right they would have redress; but an indigenous person who is deprived does not have redress available. That is a class difference and is not how rights work.

"You lived tribally, so if you aren't provided with rights you aren't available to redress" is not a valid argument.

So, your point doesn't counter what my argument was, it's a somewhat irrelevance to that exact point.

But let's say you bring that as an isolated new point: the only issue is, it's very well evidenced that many live in third world conditions. For those who don't, there are a myriad of issues.

It's very tough to argue that those conditions in itself are a) acceptable and b) a "western benefit". Of particular pertinence though - this is all based on a hypothetical that couldn't possibly be played out. How do we have any clue that if indigenous were not inflicted by invasion they would be worse off at this current day and age?

That's a hypothetical where an infinite amount of alternatives could have occurred - while the idea that indigenous had human rights taken away is not a hypothetical and the concept of redress for deprivation of rights is very well established throughout both Australia and globally.

Speaking on behalf:

I don't claim to be speaking on behalf of every individual around - but that doesn't affect the concept of common knowledge which is described as "truth of that fact is so notorious or well known, or so authoritatively attested, that it cannot reasonably be doubted."

If we're going to be challenging everything to "does the sun exist", it's going to be a very long and tedious conversation.

If someone decides to come out and dispute, I think the fair response would be: "have you been living under a rock?"

In any event, you've missed the main point here.

We have many people who are of the view that the problems are self-inflicted and we shouldn't bare the costs. Fact is, the sh!t we pulled caused the problems and whether anyone believes that or not, we will bare the costs.

That's not an opinion, it's going to happen regardless of opinion - costs are born by the country as a whole no matter what.

Maybe, we need to accept that and become smarter about dealing with it. It starts with acknowledging evidence and reality.

Even those who criticise the politically correct or bleeding hearts it costs you too, and you can't escape it. You're in it with the rest of us. Tough shit.

"the sh!t we pulled"

"the sh!t we pulled"

We have already acknowledged we landed with Terra Nullius as a wrong assumption. We have made big amounts of compensation already.

The best way to not go through this is to not pull the sh!t in the first place.

The deed is done....no one has a time-machine, its now about how we move on.

"That's not an opinion, it's going to happen regardless of opinion - costs are born by the country as a whole no matter what."

So they don't want the rest of society to celebrate yet want the rest of society to pay...yeah OK.

Your responses were literally pre-empted, and promptly dealt with in my post. You've just stuck to a subborn merry-go round.

Here's perhaps an "easier read" for you:

Your comments: "We made big amounts of compensation"

It wouldn't be financially possible to actually compensate for damage caused, that ship has sailed. For the damage caused it's not really "big" so much as it's "ludicrously small".

In any event: To say "amounts paid, move on" or to, in the alternative, justify it as self inflicted is to not understand the consequences and ripple effect - and to not understand it to absurd proportions really.

Your comment "how about we move on"; "yet want the rest of society to pay"

Those two really go hand in hand. What anyone "wants" is completely irrelevant. "Moving on" really depends how much you accept this snapshot in time.

Regardless, what you can't change - irrespective on who wants who to pay and who wants to move on; is that either way we'll pay big time to lift the standards; or we won't pay it, and it'll become a huge cost for society through crime costs, health costs and opportunity-costs.

I'm not saying anyone wants to pay the costs, I am saying the costs exist whether you like it.

Would you rather the cost, or the cost? Ball is in your court.

Wasn't it though? The English showed up, planted a flag in the ground, and we all lived happily ever after? And all the Aboriginals in Tasmania just decided they'd move to the mainland because they didn't like the cold.

The whole terra nullius idea got the English off to a really bad start in the colony of NSW, now Australia.

In very generalised terms, the English were about as good as it got as far as European colonial powers went. In other colonies, they developed the locals' capacities for future self-determination and government. In most English colonies, the indigenous people contributed (albeit in a subservient role) to the governance of the colony. As a result, decolonisation by England was generally a smoother process. They also exported what was arguably the best form of representative government, a stable economic system and a strong liberal-democratic tradition.

BUT in deciding that a particular land did not have people with a structure that they recognised as leadership, the English colonisers made the leap to thinking that "these natives aren’t as developed as us, so this land is therefore not owned by people we recognise". A lot of early colonial writing portrays Australia’s Aborigines as “noble savages”. There is genuine admiration for some qualities, but not acknowledgement of equality with Europeans. That wasn’t too terrible in kind, charitable minds (albeit that it resulted in paternalistic policies and practices) but poisonous in the minds of those who were more self-interested.

Make it Melbourne Cup Day so we can skive off work and get pissed all day instead of just half the day. Screw Victorians

Thanks KET for your detailed post.

Since I'm not a lawyer, and no one I know well is a lawyer, it's difficult for me to assess what you're saying on the rights issue and also about poor trestment under the law. Although it does sound as though you're requesting different law systems for different people, which you'll have a hard time convincing the public about.

I have an automatically high level of scepticism about claims of poor treatment and the like though, because of the undeniable victim industry that exists in this country that is misleading many people on this issue.

(I'm not suggesting that you personally have been misled, just explaining why I have a certain bias against those who claim victimhood. The propaganda machine exists, and it's powerful. I'm certain of that due to my own experiences).

I'm not asking for different systems - the legal system has a history of finding ways of accomodating this type of dilemma - for instance children, people of different races, people who are traumatised in particular ways etc. it’s a continued process to understand and improve. A common occurrence amongst indigenous through culture and children due the power difference is they often admit to doing things they didn’t do because when they are asked a question they will answer in the affirmative - they think that’s the answer the person asking the question wants.

For obvious reasons, that throws a major complication that the system needs to work through. It’s kind of akin to diplomacy trying to cater to all types and sizes.

I think skepticism needs to be done in a healthy way, for instance auditors are basically born skeptics - ie they won’t trust things without evidence. Where I heavily weigh against many so called skeptics is when there’s denial of evidence.

There’s a classic saying: You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own evidence.

I think a lot of the "evidence" is very much open to interpretation though.

For instance, many people look at various statistics showing aboriginal disadvantage and jump straight to the conclusion that they are being wronged in 2017.

Of course, this is all getting off the original point.

On Australia Day, I'll mourn with Indigenous Australians by taking a moment to remember the tragedies of the past. I'll pay my respects in that small way.

I'll also celebrate the positives that came about due to January 26, 1788 and I'll have a beer and a think about what makes Australia unique and great- freedom, diversity.

Neither one needs to minimise the other.

KET,

thank you.

Both sides of the national conversation- Di Natale on one side and Abbott, Turnbull and Joyce, Latham on the other- are making an unjustified assumption- that if we have a public holiday on Australia Day, it must be a day of celebration. But why? What's the reasoning behind this assumption? Why can't we have a morning of mourning then an afternoon of celebration? So I don't really want to "keep the date as is" I want to keep the date but change how it's done. Important difference.

John Dickson made a good point too- changing the date means that Indigenous Australians are not structurally included in the new date- it will simply become a celebration of what's great about modern day Australia. "The beauty of sticking with 26 Jan (but incorporating lament in the beginning of the day) is that it will embed in our national day an annual acknowledgement of Indigenous people and the harm Europeans caused, and so it will remind/ educate generations of Australians each year to temper our celebrations with remembrance and sorrow".

He also suggested someone could be commissioned to write a poem in the spirit of Anzac Day's Ode of Remembrance ("they will not grow old..."). Like Les Murray.

A minute's silence- another suggestion.

"A mature nation ought to be able to mourn and rejoice on the same day, recognising with shame what European presence did to the Indigenous peoples of this land and acknowledging with pride that we have also received and achieved great things in this land".

Well said John.

Is this the ABC's forum now?
Take your politics elsewhere!

This thread is NOT for HOOPS.

It is tagged OFF TOPIC.

Actually alot of different cultures improved the world considering Europeans took alot of what they learned from the Eastern world ie: Muslim cultures

#666813

We're talking 1788 not 788AD

Well, it sound like IF the date is to be changed, the best date would be May 8 (Mate Day) and if the date remains, then the focus needs to be adjusted to provide an opportunity to acknowledge, reconcile and move forward.

Some great input from a lot a posters (esp KET) and 666828, your viewpoint is valuable.

Personally, I think a National Day is a good thing and an opportunity to unify, more than divide. We all have two ears and one mouth, and that's probably the ratio in which they should work. I don't mind keeping the date as providing the focus is right.

I am so bored with this topic...with that I don't mean disrespect to any other humans,
(key word 'humans' black,white or yellow)ever since the beginning...all around the world....still, human Vs human.

Cut out your patch, break the cycle, invest in yourself...others will follow your lead...black, white or yellow...

This conversation makes me love the people in it more than I thought possible.

I can't believe the amount of support for a date change on this thread..

it would be of interest to know how many 'individual' anon's have shown support

I'm fairly certain the vast majority are from one source making multiple anon posts

Isaac can confirm?

I can't believe the amount of support for a date change on this thread..

it would be of interest to know how many 'individual' anon's have shown support

far from it.don't mind healthy debate

.why are you alarmed by the question?

wouldn't't be the first time on Hoops one person with an axe to grind/viewpoint has made multiple posts to hammer a point

There are anons for and against. None appear to be trying to present themselves as separate individuals.

If you're surprised that people are for a change of date, why wouldn't you be surprised at support for not budging? For some significant period, there wasn't an Australia Day as we know it. I'd say that for most people, the association with Australia Day as they know it is a time of year and what they do with the day more than anything specific. Or a feel that moving is "losing" to others, or "letting them win".

I like May 8 (hadn't heard it before; it's quite funny) but think a rough mark of "Summer holidays are other, now get working" is handy. But not so much that I care a great deal about it. Making a change matters more to others and I'm happy to defer when it's a seriously emotive issue for them. I'm more surprised that it's an emotional issue for others.

I resist any "past is the past" argument because it's something I suspect can't be understood from a position of majority.

There have been some great comments for and against.

How far would you take this push?

Should the 36ers name be changed as its named after the year South Australia became a British province.

I think the Wildcats should change their name to the 26ers so that the original people of this country can hate them as much as white basketball fans do.

Change it to May 8, for Mate Day. Everyone is a mate no matter if your black, white, yellow, red, green, purple or orange.

Change the flag to a nice green, blue and yellow design we all can aspire to (not incorporating the aboriginal flag at all as that is just highlighting one group of people).

Being against 1836 would be like being against Jan 1st 1901 not January 26th 1788

Changing the date or name isn't going g to alter history, it’s also not helpful to those born on that day especially the 1988 crew who all got special commemorative birth certificates lol

Perhaps the indigenous nation would like to find a day to celebrate when they first arrived on these shores as they too travelled here from other lands.

Australia Day is a celebration of what this country has become, and it’s achieved that through blood sweat and tears of many nationalities, and continues to do so today.

You cannot change history, you can only ensure it is not repeated.

Those complaining , I bet they don’t complain about the day off or the double time and a half they get paid to work it, unless of course your one who dies not work and lives off the benefits this country provides.

Changing the date or name isn't going g to alter history, it's also not helpful to those born on that day especially the 1988 crew who all got special commemorative birth certificates lol

Australia Day is a celebration of what this country has become, and it’s achieved that through blood sweat and tears of many nationalities, and continues to do so today.

Those complaining , I bet they don’t complain about the day off or the double time and a half they get paid to work it, unless of course your one who dies not work and lives off the benefits this country provides.

"What he is alluding to is Aboriginals probably claim more benefits (unemployment etc) than others so they shouldn't complain."

I know people might find this hard, but I don't actually mind if Aboriginals get a bit more government benefit than "others" Although 2% of the population, a significant portion of that population lives in rural and remote areas and in poorer urban areas. Aboriginal culture is more complex than some people understand.

Generally life expectancy and other health related markers are significantly lower than the rest of the population. Drug and alcohol issues as well as domestic abuse levels are higher than other groups. Spending money to rectify those issues is not money wasted. However, some money is wasted. For example, in 1989 an (Aboriginal) employee of mine who was a very good worker decided to leave because the government gave him $30,000 to set up a small business. "I'm becoming a butcher" "...do you have any butchering experience Shane?" "no" Six months later he came back to work.

As a society, I think we want to ensure the gap between the have and the have-nots is not too large.

On a personal note, I do know one of my direct ancestors did kill an Aboriginal with a pitchfork in 1830 when a group of Aboriginals ransacked his farm and speared him 3 times. In 1912 one of my great great grandfathers was actually murdered (speared) by Aboriginals on his farm as well, so mistreatment did go both ways, despite what those who paint the political picture want to tell us.

Why should they get more funding and we think thats ok?

The vast majority of people alive today didn't do anything to have to foot the bill because of something that happened 3 or 4 (and more) generations ago when lets face it a very large % of the population wheren't even calling Australia home.

Its also a cop out to blame all white people as over 95% of the first groups of settlers where convicts and hence slave labour with no choice in the matter of coming here so really perhaps they should be asking the crown for something as well?

The massacres perpetrated were significantly weighted towards the Aboriginal population. I don't know if decent people have made attempts to ignore that or suggest that settlers weren't also killed. I assume it'd be fairly commonly understood. You can learn a bit more about efforts to catalogue it here.

What he is alluding to is Aboriginals probably claim more benefits (unemployment etc) than others so they shouldn't complain.

Reality, who's blaming all white people? Seems like a strawman argument.

It surprises me that fellow white people think of changing this as a loss. If I don't care much about the date, but others really, really do, isn't the net result of that implying that a move could ultimately help? I don't lose out if I get a public holiday on January x rather than January 26.

This is a valid topic, generally speaking Australians are very patriotic, some a little over the top but we do love to acknowledge ourselves and each other everywhere, in sport or anything really.

However, when it comes to Australia Day (or what it probably should be called - Discovery Day or Settlement Day - 'Invasion Day' may be too divisive for us right now), I absolutely agree with some changes.

If we must have that date (Jan 26th) remembered, yes, remember it with some form of silence and recognition of the plight of our indigenous inhabitants who have still not recovered from being treated so poorly. Then perhaps celebrate a new beginning, but do it with some respect and humanity.

I for one would also like Federation Day to be recognised as the real Australia Day, however once again looking into the future, WHEN we finally break our ties with the monarchy and declare ourselves free of the royal ties, that day would be worth celebrating, whenever it comes.

For those who think it was wonderful that the English came here in 1788, remember that they were an empire and it was their agenda to spread their culture and religion all over the globe, for power, control and wealth that initiated the discovery in the first place. Not to mention finding a place for convicts to be out of sight, tortured and punished.

I am not for one second saying we don't have a great standard of living here today and I acknowledge Terra Australis (The South Land) would have been discovered (in fact was) and would have been settled by another empire eventually regardless.

What I am saying is that we need to acknowledge that the Aboriginals of today are still very much impacted by the addictions, crimes and oppression forced onto them since English settlement and empirical rule.

For what it's worth, KET you have been on the money and if we cannot learn from history, if we cannot acknowledge our history and if we are unable to be honest about it, we should not rejoice!

Aboriginals have all the same rights under law as every other Aussie so i'm not sure how far we should look back as to why a group of peoples are struggling today was my point.

If we blames others for our problems we'll never grow and accept our own failures thus creating a cycle

Can the MAJORITY of Aboriginals be canvassed on their thoughts/priorities/needs?

If we blames others for our problems we'll never grow and accept our own failures thus creating a cycle

From the Facebook page of Jacinta Nampijinpa Price. It's long, a bit harrowing in parts, but very worth the read.

I want to share this letter sent to me by a woman I regard as a sister. She is a true survivor and the kind of Aboriginal woman our leaders need to listen to, especially Greens Leader Di Natale!! Hear her words and please share her story! -

I've spent an hour trying to figure out how to start this letter and there’s no easy or good way to start it, I can’t pretty it up and I can’t be sensitive because I’m just so angry.
Over the last few days we have seen The Greens party cause a huge division between us, Indigenous pitted against Indigenous, Black against whites in what I can say is some of the most vile and racist hate speech I’ve ever seen, those defending the Greens have played right into their hands like the puppets you are, you think you’re smart but you’re not. Have you ever read the story of The Pied piper? The Greens are the piper and you’re the rats.

I see so much screaming and crying over the date, the 26th of January, the national day of Australia, Australia Day but not the correct date of the first fleet arriving, more fool you. So foolish to believe that the people crying for changing the date actually care about you? They don’t care about you! They care about division, widening the gap not closing it, a fool is easily parted from his family.

Not once! Not one time have I seen The Greens or labor speak out, not once have I seen you Indigenous cohorts speak out! Not once! You have never spoken out about stopping the violence, stopping the alcoholism, stopping the child abuse and sexual assault, no, you just want to talk about how "White man" has some how oppressed you. Oppressed you? Excuse you! Most of you leading the pack are well educated, had opportunities some of us only dare dreamed about, you manipulate the mobs, especially the ones less educated or fortunate for your own selfish white hating reasons! Shame on you! Shame shame shame!

I grew up in a violent alcohol fuelled family filled with some of the most abhorrent acts committed upon my mother, upon myself. My childhood wasn’t living, it was surviving from one day to the next. I don’t remember a great Christmas, a birthday that didn’t turn violent a night where I didn’t hide under my blankets hoping that he wouldn’t come into my room. That leads me to ask where were you?

When I was 6 years old, yes SIX, I had my first nervous breakdown, I couldn’t take it anymore and my mind and body gave up, my soul withered and I was but a shell of my former self, but where were you? Were you speaking up for me? Were you there to stop the real oppression the real danger to my life? A lot of you were children yourself but where were the older ones? The mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles? The politicians? The outstretched hand? No you weren’t there!
Where were you when I watched my mother get raped and bashed until you couldn’t recognise who she was? Where were you when he held us all hostage and tried to cut our throats? Where were you when I faced an onslaught of sexual abuse? Where were you when he chased us down and tried bashing my mothers head in with a bullroarer? Where were you when almost every night in my house something violent happened? Where were you when he’d sneak into my room like a thief in the night to steal my childhood? Where were you the first time I tried to kill myself aged 9? There’s so much more and it would take me a week to write it down, but where were you? You weren’t there and you still aren’t there! Luckily for me my grandmother was there, eventually my mother threw me away when I was sexually assaulted yet once again, this time by an “uncle” there was more than one offender that hurt me, I lost count, now that’s sad. Can you change all the dates I was hurt?

You cry and you scream about changing the date while there are children like me, little boys and girls living the same life I did as a child, living in constant fear of violence and sexual abuse. No, white man didn’t oppress me, white man didn’t commit those repulsive abhorrent acts, white man failed me in the way that he failed to take me and my brother away from my mother. But we mustn’t talk about the real issues effecting the indigenous community to this day! To this very day! Is it racist to speak out? NO! You professional victims cry about a date while real victims suffer horrors only seen in nightmares or in a movie, no, that’s not accurate, the greatest horror writer on the planet would cringe if he heard my story, the story of children still suffering today.

You say it’s “racist” to even speak of these issues, it’s not racism, it’s realism. I have no time for you and your virtue signalling change the date crap. Your voice is only loud when you want to play the victim. My grandmother an indigenous elder tried so hard to take me off my mother when I was a baby, but no, the authorities wouldn’t do that as it would be racist so they left me to suffer but I didn’t let that stop me, I didn’t let the abuse and poverty get in my way. Yes I did become an alcoholic when I was 13 it was easy to deal with the pain, then one day I woke up, I was 16 I decided I was not going to let the past destroy my future, I swore to myself I would never turn out like my mother, but I did, for 3 brutal years I did, for 3 brutal years I’d send my babies away out of danger so it was only me, was it racism that drove the police and DOCS to threaten to take my babies if I didn’t leave? Was it racism that saw them drag him away so the kids and I could pack and flee? No, that was humanity, that was addressing the issue, racism didn’t play a part, they didn’t see colour, they seen violence and terror the only difference is there was no grog, no drugs, he did it because he enjoyed it.

So while you’re sitting there with your privilege screaming about changing the date, I’ll be sitting here with no privilege except for what I’ve given to myself and I’ll be speaking out about the real issues and fighting for justice for myself and for every other child that is a mirror of me. Personally I’ll keep the date, some of the good memories I have is from that date, you see I spent most Australia Days with my nan, she would have BBQ’s where family and friends would get togeather and play cricket and laugh, us kids would play and play, I never wanted those days to end. My nan always taught me that it was about unity not division, she taught me not to hate, she told me stories of old passed down and from her own memories, she taught me not to hate the people of today for the sins of yesterday, my nan was all about love and without her I wouldn’t be the strong proud woman I am today. On Australia Day, celebrate don’t hate.

That’s all I have to say, I’m getting too upset, the memories of the past never fade to a living victim, a real victim, but we go on, stronger louder and prouder.

Its certainly a tough subjected that touches on many peoples personal experiences and feelings thus its so emotive and gets a massive response and not just in respect of changing the date but the advantages and help given to aboriginal people.

There is alot of resentment already in the working classes as some of the benefits aborignal people get and regardless of our personal thought changing the date will attract viewers and eyeballs so i expect the media and both side of the political spectrum will push this subject toward there own narrative.

Personally I like the date but also don't mind if we change it but i'm worried it will create a precedence and next thing will be taking down statues of Cook etc which becomes a slippery slop to much larger divisions and next thing you'll get a aussie Trump pop up.

Unfortunately we can never make everyone happy and thus moving the date would upset more people than it would make happy (hence both major political parties won't touch it as they've done the polling!)

when you look at the numbers Trump has a huge amount of support which probably says alot of people think a certain way.

Pushing peoples opinions aside and dismissing them like a number of the change the date people are doesn't end well as drives a bigger wedge between people thus creates trump

Trump wasn't a racist until he got into office apparently so think its a bit of a pushed agenda suddenly calling him that now.

He is certainly not a feminist and as a man with power and money has certainly made sure he upgrades the wife on a semi regular basis but most rich dudes seem to be able to afford to do this.

Not sure he was ever found guilty of rape etc so perhaps chill on those wild accusations as if any of that stuff had happen it certainly would have been out now and he would have been impeached because there is a massive queue on both side of politics trying to get him out of office.

You mentioned ignorant and racist but perhaps it isn't either if the vast majority of people have a certain view then that's the countries real point of view and because it isn't aligned to your view doesn't make it racist or ignorant as they might think your point of view is ignorant from there daily reality and life.

Trump wasn't a racist until he got into office apparently so think its a bit of a pushed agenda suddenly calling him that now.

It's true that this country has not been kind to its original inhabitants.
However, it would be/ would have been a lot worse for them had an Asian country colonised IMO.

Trump has certainly made the USA a place to do business with his tax cuts which are pretty good for business and those working in the businesses.

If your a talented and hard worker you'll be getting pay rises or bonuses as the job market is very very strong at the moment so the worth of the indivdual is higher than it has been for a while.

Now if they can get the illegal workers thing under control and convert that black market into taxes and jobs for citizens the economy will get another huge kick along.

Regardless of trumps vulgar tweets like all countries if the economy is going well that's the only thing people really care about so hence he'll get re-elected.

People can call him whatever but if you can eat and are getting payrises/tax breaks your happy!

Obama oversaw a time of little growth etc but not into bagging the last guy because of the poor job he did.

The numbers don;t lie Trump is killing it in terms of economy its impossible to deny and the tax cuts are a huge boon for business and those working in them its undeniable.

I know my business is now looking to potentially move some manufacturing operations there due to the excellent tax environment when combined with the remove of burdensome regulation thats being removed particularly in states like Texas and Indiana as opposed to us just exporting our product to them.

Modern day slavery still exists in 2017 a primce example being in as Mauritania (Arabs have negro slaves) yet the mainstream media never discuss it. Hypocrites.

It was never going to end with changing the Australia Day date.

It is basically what I had thought, they want to watch the world burn.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/abolish-australia-says-indigenous-group-behind-invasion-day-rally-20180130-p4yz1z.html

Here is the offensive post in question....extract below (language censored).

https://www.facebook.com/WARcollective/?hc_ref=ARR4yKEyoJwb3PEB8ARpiWbum7FyUpCVvdUPHscWWboTm1NrfI9_2U7Ex7o6S_TxPH8&fref=nf

"In response to the attacks on WAR members and the call to burn Australia to the ground at the Naarm Abolish Australia Day Rally, we would like to issue the following statement:

F$%k Australia.
F$%k your land theft, your child stealing and your state sanctioned murders.
F$%k your governments, your military and your police.
F$%k your concentration camps dressed up as correctional facilities and immigration detention centres.
F$%k your economy, your greed and your cult of the almighty dollar.
F$%k your poisoning of water, your wholesale destruction of land and your pollution of our atmosphere.
F$%k your language forced upon us and violently attempting to replace our very own.
F$%k your white supremacy, your patriarchy and your capitalism.
F$%k your flag, your anthem and your precious national day.
WAR will not rest until we burn this entire rotten settler colony called Australia, illegally and violently imposed on stolen Aboriginal land at the expense of the blood of countless thousands, to the F$%king ground, until every corrupt and illegal institution of white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist settler colonial power forced upon us is no more. We will not rest until we build a society that cares for and honours the Earth, our mother, that respects the interconnectedness of all beings, that is founded on our sovereignty and responsibility to this country and the people who live on it, and that offers a place of safety and prosperity for our people and for all those oppressed and excluded by the current systems of power - refugees, people of colour, LGBTQIA people, poor people, disabled people.
Abolish Australia, not just Australia Day"

The Project piece where whites reduced aboriginal population by 90 percent was sad to see...

It is basically what I had thought, they want to watch the world burn.

Wow this escalated quickly!

Its always the crazies on all sides that get the media attention cause they get the clicks.

Greens/SJW/Antifa nutters
Changedate/Invasion day nutters who want to Burn Australia
Anti Gay marriage conservatives nutters
Far right anti immigrant groups etc

really the Majority of people are somewhere in the middle and just want jobs, safety and a good environment for there families to live.

The hate spewed above going both ways is why some of these now hot button topics are dividing and not healing or bringing us together!

I think we can probably blame Twitter/Facebook for giving these idiots all a bigger voice than they should have.

Nothing escaped me my friend. I was just passing on some thoughts that an indigenous person expressed who doesn't see the need to change the date

Personally I don't have a problem with changing the date. What I do have a problem with is the process that will inevitably need to be gone through, the same as we've gone through with SSM. Millions of dollars will be thrown at it by politicians patting themselves on the back over what a fucking amazing thing they're doing while indigenous kids will continue to live in squalor and be abused.

If someone could just whack the rubber stamp on it and go...."Ok the date now is...." I'd be more than happy. No one will have the balls to do it though and unfortunately irrelevancies like the Greens will never have the power to do anything on their own

If people don't like Australia Day because On January 26, 1788, Captain Arthur Phillip guides a fleet of 11 British ships carrying convicts to the colony of New South Wales, effectively founding Australia and consider this Invasion Day, then I would like to suggest a better Day.

29 April - Captain James Cook and some of his crew landed at Kamay Botany Bay on 29 pril 1770. This was a pivotal moment in Australia's history which made way for the development of our country to be the greatest country in the world.

My heritage goes back to the First Fleet and I am proud of that. Its our history and we should all be proud of that. We, as Astralians, should not put our heads in the sand to cover up our history even and especially when it is to do with the atrocious treatment of the abooriginals. Even the bad things that have happened are still our history. We must embrace our history, learn from our history and ensure that the bad things that happened previously never happen in this country again.

Ahhh,
So it's that time of year again...
I’m passionate about achieving real reconciliation between Black & White Australians, and if I thought changing the date would achieve anything, then I would support it. But let’s get a few things straight.
January 26th does NOT commemorate the arrival of the 1st fleet. That occurred earlier. It commemorates the flag-raising and official proclamation of the 1st colony.
I can understand why some Indigenous Australians find it objectionable, but it’s history. It is what happened, and nothing is going to change that.
Australia Day celebrates the current (aka "modern") nation of Australia. Again, I can understand why that might be objectionable, but it is what it is. Changing the date won’t alter that.
Going back in time is not possible. Reverting to the way things were is not an option. I wish I could tell you that there was some magical way to reverse the effects of colonisation, but there simply isn’t. All we can do is work towards a better future for ALL Australians.
We do need to overcome the lingering effects of oppression.
We do need to address Indigenous disenfranchisement.
We do need to create greater opportunities for Indigenous Training, Employment, and Enterprise.
We do need to fix the poverty and squalor that afflicts many remote communities.
We do need to provide better healthcare, education, and infrastructure to those communities.
We do need to solve the issues of crime, violence, abuse, and addiction that afflict many.
We do need to engage and support the Genuine Indigenous Leaders who are on the ground in these communities.
None of this will be achieved by listening to the big-city based academics, politicians, or leaders of the victimhood industry.
And none of these will be achieved by changing a date.
Furthermore, like it or not, to make real progress requires the support of a majority of Australians. Constantly finding new ways to needlessly alienate and divide our society is extremely counterproductive.

"It is what happened, and nothing is going to change that."

This argument is lazy and over used.

"we cant go back and change historical atrocities, so the best thing to do is keep celebrating that they happened"

GTFO. Change the date or better yet scrap the day altogether

And this bullshit

"Australia Day celebrates the current (aka "modern") nation of Australia"

No it doesn't. It represents the establishment of a british penal colony. Even if you can wash away all of the wrongs done to first Australians, why the hell would anyone want to celebrate an imperial power establishing a prison?

Have to agree with Cram here Australia Day is an extremely offensive day for our indigenous people for reasons that shouldn't need explaining to anyone over the age of 10. They had been here 40,000-60,000 years before us we came here as visitors stole their land and not only treated them like animals we actively went about trying to exterminate them by shooting them and herding them off cliffs.

Happy Australia day hoops people

Ahh yes, the great "penal colony" myth. ROFL

Do you still believe in the tooth-fairy also?

"Have to agree with Cram here Australia Day is an extremely offensive day for our indigenous people for reasons that shouldn't need explaining to anyone over the age of 10. They had been here 40,000-60,000 years before us we came here as visitors stole their land and not only treated them like animals we actively went about trying to exterminate them by shooting them and herding them off cliffs."

Firstly, there are many prominent Indigenous Leaders who not only celebrate Australia Day, but argue forcefully against the "invasion Day" rhetoric, so please no presume that all Indigenous Australian are "offended."

Secondly, whilst the atrocities you mention did happen, they were isolated. And if we are going to judge our society based on it's history, then we better stop trading with Japan, Germany, Russia, France, England, USA, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands, Belgium, Serbia, Turkey, Greece, China, etc.

Yes, the way we treated our Indigenous Brethren was despicable, and many of the wounds are still there.
What do YOU propose we do about it?
Go visit a remote Indigenous Community, ask them what they actually need, then tell us again how changing a date will fix any of it.

Ridiculousness of people suggesting moving the date is about solving all problems.

It's a pretty simple step in the right direction to change the date because January 26th is very much on the nose. It’s a straight-up association to the actual invasion aspect.

Nobody except misguided nationalists are attached to the date, most Australians only care about two things 1) we get a public holiday and 2) it’s in good weather so it can be enjoyed.

Make it March 3rd to celebrate Australia as this is the date of the Australia Act 1986, where Australia as a nation gained a genuine autonomy, it is as close as it gets to July 4th from an Aussie perspective.

Funnily enough, That's precisely what Christmas was designed to do, it was put in place to hijack a pagan holiday Saturnalia/winter solstice - that’s why a fair few Christmas customs are actually pagan ones.

The "true" meaning of Christmas was simply to screw with another group, which makes it even more reasonable to take the Christ out and consider Xmas the atheistic consumer holiday that it has become.

Yeah real clever change the date so they can protest the new date s well, those who think this is about Aborigine Land rights think again. They are completely run by commies hell bent on taking down the west, you fools who can't see the bigger picture will be the first marched off into the Gulags as useless eaters. Look at how Communism started and what they did to implement it, will send shivers down your spine with whats happening now.

Reply #829696 was me. Having computer issues

"I mean, it was a colony established to send prisoners."

No, it wasn't.

The fact you could even think of believing that, demonstrates a very poor capacity for logic or independent rational thought.

"Make it March 3rd to celebrate Australia as this is the date of the Australia Act 1986, where Australia as a nation gained a genuine autonomy, it is as close as it gets to July 4th from an Aussie perspective."

You mean some pointless Bob Hawke bullshit, that most of Australians have forgotten even exists? Yeah, Great idea.

Whether you like it or not, the simple fact is that the modern nation of Australia began as a British Colony.

Yes, various lefty morons have been trying to erase that history for years, but you can't.

You want to talk about British Invasion? My ancestors were Irish ffs.

What's next? We should stop speaking English? Repudiate the Magna Carta? Abolish Common Law? Start driving on the other side of the road?

January 26th does NOT commemorate the arrival of the First fleet. It is the date of proclamation of the first colony.

It's funny that you mention July 4th, since that was the declaration of independence by 13 colonies, yet I think you will find that the other 37 states also celebrate on that date.

Some people argue for the date of Federation. Problem is that Australia as a people and identity was already well established by then, and in the early days of federation the federal government was little more than a bureaucratic afterthought. At that time we were still British Citizens.
And why would Indigenous Australians be any happier celebration a federation that denied them citizenship?

Maybe we should celebrate the implementation of the 1939 Federal Tax act, because that was the first time the federal government got enough money to actually do anything.

Or the 1948 Citizenship act? Because till that point we were literally still British.

The problem is not the date. The problem is that for most of our history we have excluded Indigenous Australians, and mostly treated them like shit. The effects of this still linger, and remain present in many communities. THAT is what we need to fix.

And the first step to fixing it is condescendingly explaining to them why their problem with Australia Day doesn't actually exist, right Dazz?

Please also allow me to quote from the First Indigenous MHR, and only Indigenous Minister for Indigenous Affairs:

"Australia Day is a time to reflect, respect and celebrate. A time to walk side-by-side and move forward together, as one."

" Australia Day is a time to reflect, respect and celebrate. A time to walk side-by-side and move forward together, as one"

Nice words mean little when we have picked a symbolic date that is, as stated, on the nose.

There will be a lot of tough aspects to getting indigenous affairs into a better circumstance than it is today, but one piss easy step is to just shift the date to another that isn't so brazenly connected to the specific invasion aspect.

It’s not hard to be pragmatic about it when so many Australians don’t give a shit about the date we just want a day off!

"the date was selected for that specific reason. Most current countries were founded on the basis of battle, takeover and even genocide. That's the history of the human race. It's not specific to our Country, it's not even specific to our species. This is how the world works. I truly believe more and more buy into the Invasion Day rhetoric for the sake of taking it to the man, so to speak. I also accept and know that for some this isn't the case, just clarifying that I believe its become the issue it has not completely due to the issue itself. As difficult and even horrific as our history is, its our history. Until such time that as a people, as a country we break away from the Brits I personally believe the date is as it should be, a chance to recognise our past, our birth (as a nation) with honesty."

What a load of crap. Our nation was born on 1 January 1901. 26 January celebrates a British moment in time, not an Australian one.

""I mean, it was a colony established to send prisoners."

No, it wasn't.

The fact you could even think of believing that, demonstrates a very poor capacity for logic or independent rational thought"

So which part are you disagreeing with? That prisoners were sent here or that it was a colony?

"January 26th does NOT commemorate the arrival of the First fleet. It is the date of proclamation of the first colony."

British colony.

"The problem is not the date"

Yes, yes it is.

"Whether you like it or not, the simple fact is that the modern nation of Australia began as a British Colony."

So thats why the Us celebrate their national day on the day the Europeans first settled too right? And the Canadiens? And indians? And all other colonized nations of the world? No? Just us then right.

Australia started on 1 January 1901. Everything before that was a history of Indigenous nations and a small bit of British invasion.

"What's next? We should stop speaking English? Repudiate the Magna Carta? Abolish Common Law? Start driving on the other side of the road?"

Oh good, slippery slope argument. That always works well. I guess people must be marrying animals at this point because they legalised SSM a couple of years ago right?

One issue that has been totally overshadowed by whatever is trendy by the triggered element of our society is the republic question. It's 2021 and we still aren't one which is a complete and uttter joke. John Howard rigging the republic referendum was twenty years ago yet momentum has totally stalled. I'm getting sidetracked now but how repulsive was he, don't forget he also loves about not introducing the GST.

Let's finally become a republic, whatever day we begin as one can be the date of the new Australia Day. Two birds, one stone.

don't forget he also LIED about not introducing the GST.

I too would like to become a republic and see a treaty with the indigenous Australians as part of our new nation. That would be a good day to celebrate. A referendum on this would likely take years though and then need to get through the fairly high bar to be approved.

Changing the date we celebrate our national day right now though would take only the stroke of a pen and would be a good faith gesture towards acknowledging the past and looking to the future.

Cram if the date is changed the people protesting now will complain about it being superficial and still a celebration of the same thing and will morph it into a 'scrap the day' movement.

By becoming a republic we will have something tangible to celebrate together for the first time in our history as partners in a new system of government, separating ourselves away from the murderous British subjects.

Good things come to those who wait. Let's not do it half-arsed.

again with the slippery slope. Lazy.

Nobody ever once said changing the date is the be all and end all, its simply a STEP in the right direction - not celebrating said murderous Brits. Its absurd that any modern Australian sees that as something worthy of celebrating.

Some quality nuanced arguments made by yours truly 4 years ago in this thread.

Changing the approach to the day rather than changing the date is something that's already happening to some extent and will continue to do so.

Ironically changing to some other date would do LESS to encourage mainstream Australia to identify with, empathise with, and improve the plight of indigenous Australians.

"People who agree with my specific view"

I reckon everyday Australians is a broad term that inherently includes indigenous Australians whom I have no doubt it is an issue for.

If you're talking “majority of Australians” you’d be talking the middle class - a very socially conscious group.

Usually Nationals/conservative liberals/GOP use the term “everyday” as if the far-right reflect “the average joe” - delusional pisstake

"murderous Brits"

If not for said Brits, Australia wouldn't be the place it is today. So we've gotta understand the good and the bad.

But I take your point, for indigenous Australians January 26 represents the beginning of the end of the oldest continuing culture in the world. There's many terrible things that occurred subsequent to that date.

This is why we need to turn Australia Day into a dual purpose day- a morning of lament and reflection, and an afternoon of celebration about everything great about Australia.

Who said that just because there's a "public holiday" that it's automatically a full throttle celebration day that's disrespectful of the indigenous? No one treats Anzac Day like that, as a pure celebration. Remembering and reflection is the order of the day. January 26 actually should remind us MORE to consider reconciliation with the indigenous than almost any other date.

The whole thing is just a media beat up anyway. Just like the BLM has died a slow death.

" This is why we need to turn Australia Day into a dual purpose day"

This is the difference between 26th Jan and Say, a March 3rd for example with the Australia Act or other random dates.

A date like 3rd can be about Australia, good and bad aspects but importantly about Australia in a broad sense.

Jan 26th is not that because it is so clearly on the nose that you can't just antidote it by saying “shit happens, stuff sucks, get past it”. If we are going to use a symbolic date to celebrate a day, bloody well choose one that is a positive light, ie Australia Act 1986 (March)

People are oddly stubborn about keeping a date considering it has been changed before. If the only reason to not change is to spite, it says a lot about the character of the person. If the line is “celebrate for the good and bad, there isn’t appreciation of just how on the nose the date is, and a lack of any kind of empathy on that fact. Those virtues doesn’t give indigenous Australians a sense of safety that Australians are beyond their historical addiction to White Australia views. It would inspire about as much confidence as a Russian opposition leader with Vladimir Putin.

I don't want it changed because it changes nothing.

Aboriginals are going to continually be critical of the occupation.

Its not just the date they are angry about its the presence of 20m non-indigenous people.

Aboriginals have been given a lot of concessions.
- The right to vote.
- Native Title.
- Have and will receive Native title compensation.
- Aboriginal specific welfare payments.
- National Sorry Day.

We have paid them, we have said sorry. I don't want to bend to their whims again.

Aboriginals have been given a lot of concessions.
- The right to vote.

Thats not how racism works.

Truly unfortunate to see how much brainwashing ol' uncle Rupert has done to the people on this forum

" Thats not how racism works."

That was straight up racism - the right to vote isn't a “concession”

Native title isn’t a “concession” - recognising a fact isn’t a concession, it’s just reality. Native title was when the Courts recognised the judicial fact that aboriginal Australians were on this land prior to European settlement. There is no doubt you’ve made that reference off the cuff with zero thought and absolutely no clue what you are talking about. It is clear because there’s no way you’ve read and understood a 200 page case on property, constitutional and international law, however statistically there would be at least a few law students on here that do understand the sheer level of bullshit you’ve just said.

There are a lot of xx specific welfare payments. When you’ve oppressed, kidnapped, murdered and denied a group of people a say - generally it fucks things up, the consequences are super expensive. That’s not a “concession”, it’s a cost associated with prior stupidity of the country. We spent inordinate amounts on drunken English Irish Europeans because it turns out, ironically, they have a gene similar to Aboriginals which affects addiction and mental health and has become a significant cost to our welfare and health system. Do we call that a concession as well? That’s a far larger population and welfare recipients than a group representing give or take 3% of our population.

That post LB, was peak Trumpian - crazy gibberish rantings coated in inflammatory insults and I don’t think you actually know what the word “concession” means.

Ok, let me set forth two alternate explanations, you tell me which is more logical and plausible:

Explanation 1
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Britain, despite having plenty of space even today, had run out of place to put it's prisoners.
So rather than put them to work building prisons, they decided to establish a "penal colony".
They ignored all the obvious choices, such as using Islands in the Hebrides or Orkneys, and instead decided to build ships, hire sailors and soldiers, load up with provisions, and sail to the other side of the world.
They bypassed all the closer and cheaper options, such as Canada, Western and Southern Africa, and even India and East Africa. They ignored ideal locations for a prison such as St Helena, Ascension, Diego Garcia, etc, etc, and instead sailed to the furthest point possible.
Even though this was a "life sentence", rather than send the scum to this new penal colony, they sent mostly petty criminals, including children.
Even though prisons, even today, separate the genders, they sent a disproportionate number of women.
Even though it was a penal colony, they did everything possible to encourage free settlers to also go to this penal colony.
This penal colony was so successful, that they established more penal colonies in Australia,even though they had no prisoners to send.
They built a successful penal colony in Perth, but forgot to tell anyone, and years later had to beg authorities to send them some.

Explanation 2
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The British, along with other European nations, were land-hungry colonisers.
Having done their best to establish "colonies" allover the known world, but having been beaten to the punch in some key regions, and/or facing stiff competition, they set their greedy sights upon Terra Australis.
In a rare, but noble display of humanity, the British had outlawed slavery. This put them at a tactical disadvantage compared to the other colonisers.
So Britain did what they had always done when needing sailors and soldiers. They coerced people. People of suitable age and health were rounded up on minor charges, often frivolous or invented, and instead of receiving appropriately short custodial sentences, cooperative judges sentenced them to "transportation,".
Even though many prisoners became fee again after the term of their sentence, there was no provision to return home, so the had no choice but to join the settlements.
Albany (being a very rare natural-harbour) and Perth were established because the British beloved that France (or other powers) would seek to share the continent. There was insufficient labour for public works, and so authorities beseeched the British to send convicts.

So your argument is that it wasn't a penal colony because it was only a place they sent people who had been convicted of crimes?

Okay.

Just because we had Trump as president of USA doesn't mean basic facts become conspiracies, Dazz wasting time making up his own facts of life