BLAZER
Years ago

Basketball Academy

Just a couple of questions regarding the academy that i am unsure about.

With the regular academy trainings and the development trainings, does this impact on the players training with their district club? I know the clubs will not penalise players for this involvement (as they shouldn't)but there appears to be a lot of committment on behalf of the players and I just wondered.

Are there any academy players (past or present) reading this who can give some guidance as to the level of committment for an academy player.

Isaac may be able to help with this. Are there going to be any player stats on the academy site from their ABL seasons/careers?

Finally, Have these players played state as juniors? Could the Academy site be linked to junior state touni's from u18 and up? This could allow seeing progress of individual players to see where they end up and promotion of those who are selcted either for AIS or the academy, even assist with the retention of good junior players otherwise lost to footy, compete with the AIS.

Where will this be in 5, even 10 years time?

Just asking the question, that's all...

Topic #4232 | Report this topic


Isaac  
Years ago

Unlikely to be stats included as it's a straightforward informational site. Too high maintenance to duplicate stats in multiple places.

Reply #49126 | Report this post


Moscow  
Years ago

Heard a rumor that during the NBL season the academy team are not allowed to play for the clubs in div 1 or reserves

Reply #49127 | Report this post


ShutUp!!  
Years ago

Isaac,

Not sure if this will be a help or a hindrance, but the plan for this season is for NBL Stats to provide stats for Academy Games, as a training ground for club people interested in doing higher level.

Reply #49128 | Report this post


Quiet one  
Years ago

I know in summer season that some if not all players are not required to train with their clubs whilst training at the academy.

Reply #49135 | Report this post


annoymous  
Years ago

what about a academy for the girls

Reply #49139 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

It's on the cards and been mentioned on the forum before.

Reply #49160 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Stop wasting your time, if NBL clubs want quality they go to the AIS. The players from our ITC program get picked to go there. Next year as a state we will potentially have 6 players at the tute. A great effort considering our basketball participation compared to other states. The ITC program in this state is doing a great job of getting players prepared for the next level. They have the stats to prove it! NBL teams will pick up the odd late developer that will be playing in the state league. Accept that fact and move on. The Academy is a waste of time and money.

Reply #49164 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Waste of money, but not time... It helps develop basketball in SA... would six people have the oppurtunity to go to the AIS if it wasn't for the additional training they received in the Academy team? Probably not.

Reply #49169 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I don't think that the 6 people referred to are in the Academy program. I suspect that 3 or 4 are girls, for a start!

Reply #49174 | Report this post


julius  
Years ago

Anonymous #49164, there is so much
I want to say to you in so little time! I would love to debate your idiotic post sometime with you over the next day or two and put our real names to it, if you have the nuts!

Reply #49180 | Report this post


BLAZER  
Years ago

Why has this post been used to bag the academy. Not all players selected for the academy will have the opportunity to train and develop with AIS. I'm sure if you ask the players involved, it has improved the standard of the game already, and by promoting the young talented players, others will follow and develop in the same light. This has to be good for the sport in SA and put SA ball on the map as being progressive. Having the likes of Breheny (hope it is close to correct spelling)and Brooks as the coaching staff will only improve this level further.

Reply #49188 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

But considering the finalncial situationm of the BASA, is the $30K that BASA and the clubs spend more or less a bad investment.

Could the players that actually have a chance of playing National League just train with the 36ers when available and do individuals with the 36ers coaching staff.

That way it wouldn't cost anything to an already financially crippled associaiton.

Considering that Ingles is back next year and I'm sure that the 36ers will be talking to Newley. Other than the replacment of Rees, what position will be available over the next couple of years.

Realistically, Dodman and Bungey are the only chances. Put them in the 36ers squad which makes 14 and save a whole lot of money.

Reply #49205 | Report this post


Anonymous #49164  
Years ago

Anonymous #49169 - You've got no idea what I'm talking about have you. Understand my post before responding. Players get selected to go to the AIS from ITC programs not the 'waste of time and money' Academy.

Julius - I'm not scared of you. Stop trying to be such a tough guy and state the facts. You can't handle the truth!!

BLAZER - How many players are playing NBL because of the "specialist training they received from the 'waste of time and money' Academy?

Reply #49208 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

49205, there may be more playing opportunities in SA besides the Sixers in the future.

49208, the Academy is in its infancy so it's entirely ridiculous to pull out the "how many players are playing NBL because of" line. I'm not sure that Breheny, Brooks or Castle would be involved if they didn't believe there was value in what the Academy was doing.

I'd like to see the 49208 vs Julius discussion -- I know who one is, but not the other!

Reply #49212 | Report this post


Does anyone know if the clubs are continuing to contribute financially to the Acadamey program? If so, how much?

Where did the $30k figure come from?

Reply #49214 | Report this post


julius  
Years ago

Ok, I'll state the truth:
1) You are an idiot.
2) The Academy trains twice a week and players do individuals when available, hardly a waste of time being coached by the likes of Breheny, Brooks or Castle I wouldn't imagine.
3) The Academy is not run by BASA, it is a private enterprise, not initially by choice but because BASA could not afford it (by the way they do not receive $30k as previously stated), so not a waste of money either.
4)Your response to BLAZER may be the most moronic post I have ever seen, the Academy has been in existence for only 1 year, probably not surprising that the NBL is not riddled with Academy players just yet (but no question guys like Gerlach and to a lesser extent Hambour, who only played in The Academy games are much improved from the experience).
5) see point 1!
How do you like those facts tough guy?

Reply #49215 | Report this post


Skyhook  
Years ago

Ding Ding .. round 2
lol

Reply #49217 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The anonymous critic is probably a disgruntled player who didnt get reselected from last season's Academy....

Reply #49219 | Report this post


Julius,

My understanding is that in its first year, the Acadamy program received significant funding ($20k) from the 10 BASA member clubs. So while it might not literally be "run by BASA", it certainly wouldn't have survived without BASA backing.

Does anyone know whether or not BASA and/or the clubs will continue to provide funding for this program?

Reply #49220 | Report this post


Moscow  
Years ago

Julius you are in fact wrong. BASA do pay money into the academy, so do all the clubs for each of the players in the squad.

I do however agree that the academy is a good thing and I'm waiting to see how much this group improve over the year.

Reply #49221 | Report this post


julius  
Years ago

Moscow, just to clarify I never suggested that the Academy doesn't receive any money from BASA or the clubs just not the $30k as suggested earlier.
The Academy received $2000 each from 8 of the 10 clubs last year and free court use of the Dome and 40 tickets to each curtain-raiser.
These contributions have changed marginally this year with hopefully more of a 50/50 split between BASA and the clubs,
Anon, are you starting to get a bit nervous I just might actually know exactly what I'm talking about?

Reply #49222 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

This year BASA is putting in $20K and each club will be contributing $1K.

Which is an increase from the $2K each club put in during the first year.

Reply #49223 | Report this post


julius  
Years ago

Incorrect! BASA are contributing $10,000 and the clubs have been asked for $1000 each.

Reply #49226 | Report this post


MM  
Years ago

Just putting my 5c in but obivously there is a need for the Academy or it wouldn't exist.
Also is the Academy designed strictly for players to feed into Sixers squad or is it there to give players high level of training and skills to be able to play for any team in the NBL????

Reply #49227 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

what is all this money going towards???

They have a number of sponsors, apparently (#49222) have free court use.

What do they need to purchase, spend on, or pay?

Reply #49228 | Report this post


Moscow  
Years ago

My mistake Julius, just read your above post and it read different to when I first read it.

Reply #49229 | Report this post


Eight Ball  
Years ago

$20,000 from BASA
$20,000 from the Stamford Grand
$15,000 from other sponsors


Its a privately run show, so if they are going around for a 2nd year then financially for the 'owners' its viable.

Will the players make NBL? probably not.
Will they improve? Yes
Are the owners of The Academy making money? Seem to be


Reply #49230 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Guys its about improving the up and coming, instead of losing them to life in general.
Its about making abl players better.
Its about keeping those that arent selected for the ais,that they may develop and go on potentially for a team in sa
Its not about all of them thinking they will but with hard work ethics they have the oportunity to.
It is a win win for basketball in sa.
The knockers are just green eyed monsters who may have missed being selected(it can only accomodate a small group so they may have only missed out)or have never or are never going anywhere be it at club, state,or national level.
If fact they are probably the guys hanging out at the ring playing one on one looking cool in all the wantabe getups but couldnt play in a team if they tried.

Reply #49231 | Report this post


julius  
Years ago

Making money!!!!
Breheny, Brooks, Castle and Bell must all be getting ready to buy luxury apartments at the Grand with the massive wages they are receiving from the Academy.
Sorry guys, monies received are purely supplemental to ones wages although Bell and Castle put in what equates to almost full time hours,
Why? Because they have a passionate vision about trying to improve basketball in S.A and although not completely doing it for the love of it, its close!

Reply #49232 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Julius,

$20K is still alot of money for an association which cannot pay it's debts.

IMO the academy is a great idea if it is self sufficient. But it is not. in fact any increase in revenue has gone to the proprietors rather than a decrease in the costs to an association. And considering the Unley council is in a position where it can take Wayville stadium away from the association due to it not repaying the $1M that is owing that money might be better put into use elsewhere.

Considering the only guys in the squad with NBL ability could both just train on with the 36ers.

Reply #49234 | Report this post


BLAZER  
Years ago

Just remember that each ABA club has it's main team and the reserves which provide access to players with team experience. Surely the sixers are entitled to a similar set up if the need arises.

Also something for the younger players to work towards.

Reply #49236 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

But guys like Bungey for instance can't train with the 36ers because they work full time and the Sixers train during the day.
And I would think that $10000 from BASA would be a small contribution if 1 or 2 local kids go on to be part of the 36ers team in the future.
Plenty of examples of players like Wheeler, Ninnis, Williams, Dix etc. who developed late and without something like the Buffaloes way back when may never have gone on to have long careers. Who knows?

Reply #49237 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Blazer, Julius and anon #49237, the guys you mention above hardly had anything to do with it.

Williams didn't play at all. Ninnis only played 1 season and was already training with the 36ers. Dix never played NBL. Brett Wheeler is the only one and he trained with the 36ers during the same period.

I think you have highlighted the major problem with the 36ers. Maybe they can move their trainings until late afternoons so that they can accomodate what is best for the long term development of their program, just like the Fellas (Lightning) do. SO that players are able to make a majority of trainings.

They already accomodated Darren and Oscar and their study commitments. Should not be hard to do the same for others.

Again great idea, but will it be worth the investment. Or would we be able to get the same result for less cost.

Reply #49239 | Report this post


40th Street Black  
Years ago

Why don't they play the Academy in SEABL, the toughest comp outside of the NBL.
Its the best way to get experience and exposure.

Go back to playing state league on the Wednesday nights.

I always felt that basketball in SA was at its strongest when it had 3 SEABL teams, Flames, Warriors and the Buffaloes.
Those teams were continually playing against the best in Australia every weekend.

Reply #49240 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Costs

Reply #49242 | Report this post


Anonymous #49164  
Years ago

Isaac - You say 'there may be more playing opportunities in SA besides the Sixers in the future'. If you think there's going to be a second team anytime soon then you're wrong. Why enter a second team when the current one is run like a RSL club?

Breheny is an excellent coach and is a huge part of the Sixers success and has the runs on the board as a NBL coach. Brooks and Castle DON'T so what can they teach the guys when they're unproven at a NBL coaching level?

It's pretty obvious who Julius is, don't you? Might have something to do with the WOTAM (waste of time and money) Academy.

Julius - My response to your dot points
1) Incorrect
2) Breheny = Proven. Brooks and Castle = Not proven. I'm sure Steve could think of better things to do with the sixers program eg. Keep an eye on AIS kids or recruiting (whatever you want to call it)
3) Would the program be able to run without BASA's money contributions?
4) Are you claiming that your program largely contributed to Gerlach and Hambour's improvement? I'm sure their club coaches would appreciate that.
5) Not funny hot shot.

Anonymous #49219 - You've got no idea.

MM - The facts are that the Academy was set up to keep certain people in basketball jobs. The concept is marketed well to businesses who buy into it but they have no idea that it has been set up for the wrong reasons and isn't worth the money. It makes the game look bad and sponsors harder to find long term.

Eight ball - Well broken down and spot on.

Anonymous #49231 - You're a waste of space.

Julius - stop with the 'feel sorry for me story'. Coaching Directors put in just as time for little return so don't give me the love of the game crap.

Reply #49261 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

You're assuming (incorrectly) that I was talking about a second NBL team in Adelaide. Have you talked to those involved in the Academy to find out more about what they're trying to achieve?

Reply #49263 | Report this post


Are you suggesting that the Academy team is to play in the local State League?

Reply #49264 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anonymous #49164, it is breathtaking what a dickhead you are and why you have such a burr up your arse about the Academy.
Didn't see too much of a "feel sorry for me story" in previous posts just clarification on some of the facts.
Also didn't see anyone claiming Gerlach and Hambours improvement was solely because of the Academy, why don't you ask the players and I'm sure those 2 will give you a positive spin on it?
As far as businesses buying into it blindly I'm sure that all these companies just throw away their money without looking into it, you idiot!
What happened? Someone from the Academy kick sand in your face at the beach when you were younger?

Reply #49265 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Ruben, no, just suggesting that the scenario in SA might not always be Sixers + ABA and nothing else.

Look at it this way, the AIS takes a fixed number of players a year from all over the country. The NBL still picks up players who didn't make that cut. I think the number of players getting into the NBL via this route (non-AIS and non-college) is quite low in SA. If this scenario improves players, then it's a positive step.

Reply #49267 | Report this post


I don't disagree that the players involved benefit from the Academy. However the argument of whether the Academy is a positive step for SA basketball must take into account its cost.

Given the likelihodd that most of these players will never play NBL, wouldn't the money be better spent at the junior level, where it would benefit a pool of players who have a higher chance of playing at an elite level?

Reply #49272 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

There is no question that the Academy should fall under the auspices of the 36ers as it does in other NBL clubs (Cairns and Townsville to name two).
Unfortunately due to lack of dollars (and shortsightedness) the club chose not to do it so messrs Bell, Ninnis and Castle started it themselves.
The sad thing is for $40000 the club could have kept Ninnis as 2nd assistant coach AND had him run the Academy all under the BASA umbrella then none of this nit-picking would be necessary.
But surely $10000 is a small cost if it is successful and provides players for the 36ers?

Reply #49273 | Report this post


Anonymous #49164  
Years ago

Isaac - Maybe the the people from the Academy eg Julius would like to let the readers know what 'ground breaking ideas' they have lined up for the game in this state.

Anonymous #49265 - Read between the lines. You are obviously uneducated when it comes to basketball. How would a company know if the WOTAM (waste of time and money) Academy
is good for basketball in this state? They receive a letter, if it's makes sense to them and can they afford it then they give the money.

No one ever kicked sand in my face but I wouldn't mind fly kicking you in the face one day you clown punk!!

Reply #49274 | Report this post


you knob  
Years ago

Wow, you really are a tough guy threatening to "fly kick' and writing utter crap while hiding behind your anonymous alias. Pussy!

Reply #49275 | Report this post


Anonymous #49273 - Lack of dollars? How can the 36ers have a lack of dollars, yet BASA be flush? They're (unfortunately) the same organisation.

Whichever BASA bucket it comes from (36ers, clubs, BASA), it's money that could be going towards junior development, which would provide more benefit to our elite-level players long-term.

Reply #49276 | Report this post


Anonymous #49164  
Years ago

How do you know that's not my real name you knob. If that's your name?

Reply #49277 | Report this post


Moscow  
Years ago

KUNG POW

Anonymous #49164

Reply #49279 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Ruben, any money coming from corporate supporters is up to them. If they want to support the Academy ahead of Juniors, that's their decision to make. A company like Zest is likely to be a good fit for the Academy, for example. It's not as though the rest of the corporate backers don't know their basketball -- all have had some involvement with the sport -- Gaze (duh), Tee Lee Travel (owner's children play and one has played NBL), Bernie Lewis (duh), Graphic Print Group (involved with Sixers), Distinctive Homes (same), Evright (same), Kies (recognise the name?), etc.

So you're talking about the money coming from BASA/36ERS and the clubs. If a club puts in $1k for a year, and sees their players improve, isn't that a reasonable spend? A club like Eastern has Madgen and Bungey in the Academy. When ABA teams are spending more than $1k on some decent players, $1k is an investment.

And the 36ERS spending $10k to keep close to potential future players isn't dumb. $10k to keep tabs on 15+ players -- easy. And if a portion of the money goes to guys who are true basketball people, I think that's a good thing. Ninnis has already been lured interstate. It would be a loss to SA basketball if the same happened to Bell or one of the other guys. Gerlach and Madgen are already in the squad. Bungey should play NBL in the future, and Dodman probably could also. As for the rest, most may be a chance. It's easy to write them off, but Matt Illman did pretty well despite not being earmarked early. A lot of people didn't think Darren Ng was NBL material, or criticise guys like Todd Gower and Nick Hambour but none have embarrassed themselves at that level.

If we want to play Stupid Things BASA Spends Money On, is this really the most contentious?

49164 - Julius isn't from the Academy. Notice how Paul Bell didn't announce Talking Hoops until he'd had the ball in the basket? No point in announcing something if there's no guarantee of pulling it off. Go and spare five minutes to talk to the guy about what his plans are, what the chances are, and how you could help. I've talked a bit with Bell and Rick Castle and both are genuine about raising basketball in this state.

Reply #49289 | Report this post


Moscow  
Years ago

Isaac you better not talk about the sturt boys too much as SturtySixer will come out and spray them

Reply #49298 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Isaac,

I think Ruben means the money from the 36ers is really the money from BASA. Yes we would all agree that this is not the only thing that is a poor allocation of money. But that doesn't mean that it should continue to receive money from BASA. Saying BASA from bunkrupcy should be on the top of everyone's agenda. It is things like this that not only cost money, but also make people disenfranchised about our National League team. And has there been an audited finacial report sent to the clubs?

If it was self sufficient then their is no problem. But when some people are making money while club coaches who have spent the better part of 10 years developing the same kids, how do we say to these people thanks for your work on getting them here, but now they aren't allowed to play for your club over summer when you need them and by the way for a couple of sessions we expect your club to pay us.

And I would say Todd Gower, Darren Ng and Nick Hambour have gotten where they are without the help of the academy. And Ben Madgen wasn't in the academy and has moved past all of those players that were. So that is the best indication that all the work those guys did last year was really not worth the $20K that is spent. Or that perhaps Richard Hill should be the coach because seems that his players are the one's making the greatest strides.

Reply #49299 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

But if the clubs didn't think the Academy was a good idea, why would they support it both financially and by letting their players miss the silly season?

Reply #49300 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I was using Gower/Ng/Hambour/Illman as examples of players who reached the NBL without hitting the AIS, nothing else. It was a response to someone suggesting that none of the roster bar Bungey and Dodman would make the NBL. Maybe so, maybe not.

Money from 36ERS or BASA, yes, I know what the point is, but BASA/36ERS cut an assistant coach. Is spending part of that saving on further developing young talent a bad thing?

Further up, the point was made that the 36ERS should be doing this themselves rather than spend on externals to do it. Well, from what's been said, they were offered the chance and didn't do it.

Even if they had've done it outside of the original suggestion of Ninnis doing Assistant Coach and Academy together, then who pays for that? When you go to a professional coach like Steve Breheny and say "Can we add to your workload with trainings, individuals, public appearances, etc?" What's that going to cost, do you think? And then adding Bell to chase sponsors and organise events, etc. And another coach to help out with more of the same. What's that going to cost? Same amount of money.

You speak of other coaches going unpaid despite their efforts. Nothing stopped them from pitching the same idea to BASA or corporate sponsors first. And do you sook when Newley makes the NBA and his agent gets $50k for arranging a contract while his U16 coach keeps putting in the hard yards for nowhere near that amount?

So here are the arguments against:

- 36ERS could do this themselves: strawman
- what about the players junior coaches: strawman
- most of these players will go nowhere: strawman
- no one from the Academy has made the NBL because of it: strawman
- corporate backers are being fooled: strawman

The only argument I can see that has any real legitimacy is that it's a waste of time and money. Those involved choose to allocate their time, so that's solved. And what player is going to emerge from this as a weaker player?

As I've outlined, it's not inconceivable that a club could get reasonable value for a $1000 outlay, or that the BASA/36ERS could get a decent return for $10k that they were going to spend on Paul Rogers anyway, so I just don't see how it's so wasteful.

Maybe there are more deserving projects in local basketball, but if no one packages them up and presents them well, how are they going to get off the ground?

Reply #49303 | Report this post


cavalo  
Years ago

AMEN - thank you Issac!

Everyone go to bed and leave this one alone.

Academy = positive things, now and for the future.

Reply #49308 | Report this post


Anon #49299  
Years ago

Isaac,

you bring some interesting issues as always.

Isaac said "Money from 36ERS or BASA, yes, I know what the point is, but BASA/36ERS cut an assistant coach. Is spending part of that saving on further developing young talent a bad thing?"

Yes it is, the reason that they cut an assistant coach is due to the 36ers not being able to make a profit. That is if you actually attribute the number of staff in the front office that work for them too them. They will not make a profit again this year.

Currently, BASA owes $1M est on the Wayville stadium. The Unley council are in a position where they could take it away from BASA and lease it to a private organisation meaning that BASA would lose the $60K revenue from this stadium. Also your beloved Sabres have a stadium where the Department for education could close any time due to the problems with the floor. This would mena that BASA could lose $180K that this stadium makes. It would take $300K to fix by summer or all could be lost. I would say right now these things are more important.

Isacc said "Further up, the point was made that the 36ERS should be doing this themselves rather than spend on externals to do it. Well, from what's been said, they were offered the chance and didn't do it." and "When you go to a professional coach like Steve Breheny and say "Can we add to your workload with trainings, individuals, public appearances, etc?" What's that going to cost, do you think? And then adding Bell to chase sponsors and organise events, etc"

Well what does this say about Smyth and Brehney. Do they value the program. You can't actually think that they do 40 hours a week do you. If they cant find time in their day to do it then they obviously don't value it.

But wait, they can do it to earn more money. ADn considering Smyth is the highest paid Head COahc and Brehney is the highest paid assistant in the NBL you'd think that it might be in their best interests to keep young players coming through. Why do they not value it, because they know that they only need to bring in 1 big guys and return their current players to keep the team competitive.

"And do you SOOK when Newley makes the NBA and his agent gets $50k for arranging a contract while his U16 coach keeps putting in the hard yards for nowhere near that amount?"

Issac, I thought you of all people would not resort to name calling. We are talking different things here. Our clubs doen't pay Brad Newleys agent. We are paying for the Academy.

Do we all remember the 36ers and Lighting Zone. Great idea. Help those players who haven't made it into the ITC program improve, maybe we could find the late developer and push them along.

Just

a) not necessary

b) not cost efficient. (lost over $100K for BASA)

I think that all people are saying is that if the clubs didn't have to pay for anythig then there is no problem. (And that means BASA too, becasue sometimes people forget they are one and the same)

Finally, again this is just another reason for district club members to become disenfranchised from the 36ers program. Them taking more money from an already hemoraging Associaiton to keep guys involved when there isn't the money to even fix a court at Pasadena that makes nearly $200K per year for the Associaiton.

Reply #49330 | Report this post


BLAZER  
Years ago

anon, you idiot!

What about the positives of the academy, giving younger players a goal. I agree that the ABA should be, at some stage, a benchmark for the junior players, but until that happens and even if it does, there will still be a significant gap between ABA and NBL. By having the opportunity to be coached by past or present players and coaches who have been successful, will give the younger generation of players some insight into what it takes to cut it, along the way this can only benefit the sport regardless of the costs. Would you prefer basketball dissappears altogether...

Reply #49341 | Report this post


XY  
Years ago


$20,000 is chicken feed to a multi-million dollar enterprise (even a cash strapped one), especially when it is spent on developing promising young talent. Question really is why is so little being spent?

Income from Sixers games are roughly $100,000 (5,000 tickets at $20) per 16 games ($1.6M) plus any finals, which are bonuses (every final is a huge winfall). Less costs (of which players fees of $700,000 is a considerable part).

It is rather petty to complain about BASA (including the clubs) spending $20,000 on the development of the best youth in the state. Hell, if they didn't contribute to such a worthy cause, I for one would be disgusted!

So, maybe it is not 'grass roots' enough for you Anon, but at least it is something that people are trying to do to make players better.

And believe it or not, working people are entitled to be paid. If my Boss came to me and said 'I really would encourage you to spend an extra 15 hours a week training our younger employees on a completely voluntary basis in addition to your current full time work load' I know where I would be telling him to jump!

The $20,000 you are so passionate about as being a waste of time is not going to feed the poor in Sudan, nor fix the court at Passadina, nor surprisingly, pay off the 'Dome'. It really is peanuts for any small to medium sized business, and you would probably find that it is much less than BASA's stationary bill (stamps alone for a pre-season mail out to 4,000 season ticket holders would be $2,000).

Reply #49343 | Report this post


Thomo  
Years ago

The understanding with the unley council over wayville is they will not take back the keys or lease it out to someone else , having researched this to use as ammunition for a meeting i had with the former ceo, unley advised it was not in there best interest to do so all they were looking for is a time frame, and for the sake of 20k a year to run and academy which from the outside looking in (i have no ties with any club) i think its a positive step for the furtherment of the quality of local basketball and it also gives the chance of greater exposure to the players and possible nbl contracts,

seeing this is only in the beggining of its 2nd year

wouldnt it make sense to judge it after 4 or 5 years once the people involved with the academy have the time to implement the theories goals and directions for it,

nothing works over night, give it a chance

it took 5 years of the cricket academy to produce a test player

seems to me that anon has some underlying issue

Reply #49346 | Report this post


 
Years ago

Isaac, you make some great logical and smart points about the Academy.
Anon #49299, I don't know where to begin with your illogical, mis-informed and biased crap, you didn't really throw the 36ers zone in as a comparison did you?
Not worth the time or effort to reply to someone who is harbouring some deep resentment to someone in the Academy.
How about coming clean and tell us your REAL personal gripe instead of making up all this peripheral BS!

Reply #49349 | Report this post


Noone would disagree that spending money on player development is admirable. The question is, would SA basketball benefit more if this money was used more appropriately? Surely you would get more value for the dollar if this money was directed towards juniors.

XY,

"Working people are entitled to be paid"

100s of basketball coaches in this state aren't paid a cent. Many would do an extra 15 hours a week for no pay. It all depends on what your motivation is.

Reply #49350 | Report this post


Thomo  
Years ago

like i stated i think theres some underlying issue or reason there is this resentment

Reply #49351 | Report this post


Anon #49299  
Years ago

XY,

What about the number of people who's wages are being paid by the money from the 36ers. You didn't add the coaches wages. Nor the Marketing Staff's wages. Or the cost of running a game. Or the other people who's job it is to make sure that the flights are book, uniforms ordered, security etc.

And BASA already does spend money on junior development, do you think that the ITC program that Brad Hill, Oscar Foramen, Jacob Holmes came through costs nothing.

If you are going to be spending money, at least put it where it works rather than jobs for the boys. Put it back into assisting club in setting up domestic programs. This will return a profit in year 1. Transfer it into new courts that can increase revenue.

In the next 5 years after $100K is spent and the Academy claims that Jordan Dodman, Brad Bungey and Ben Madgen are their great products, we will only see the applause that these guys are ending up like Jason WIlliams as 30 years olds without formal education. Having finished chasing a dream of being a pro-athlete. With nothing to show for it.

Reply #49354 | Report this post


 
Years ago

Who said the Academy is getting $100k over 5 years! You really are a bloody idiot. C'mon out with it, who do you have an obvious and somewhat disturbing major problem with?

Reply #49357 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon 49299,

One of the advantages of the academy is that programs are tailor made for the player so that they can study and / or work as well.
Individuals and weights sessions etc are done at a time that is convenient foe the player.

Therefore the JAson Williams example you just made wont eventuate.

Reply #49359 | Report this post


 
Years ago

Don't be logical, you may fry Anon #49299 brain!

Reply #49360 | Report this post


XY  
Years ago

I don't think I was demeaning the thousands of volunteers that do wonderful work around the nation (not just in basketball) by suggesting that working people deserve to be paid.

Hats off to all people who are willing to give a hand to something for no personal gain other than personal satisfaction. However the high and mighty bullshit suggesting that people like Smyth or Breheney should be contributing to grass roots basketball in their own time at their own expense is disgraceful.

It is called volunteering for a reason - it is a voluntary commitment that nobody else can expect you to do. You have no idea about what time other people put in, or what their levels of commitment are. People have families, mortgages, jobs and, believe it or not, a life.

I would hope with your holier-than-thou attitude that you put in some hard yards volunteering for the betterment of society, but even so, it would not excuse your complaining about others. To do so would only demean the value of what true volunteers do.

Reply #49362 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I definitely support the concept of these sub-district competitions, but I also support a pro-active person pitching an idea to gain support, or pro-active and genuine people seeing some reward for their efforts and ideas. Just because other genuine basketball types are coaching for free doesn't mean that others shouldn't get paid a small amount for their time. It's a strawman argument.

If Paul Bell can find sponsors for an Academy that is a "waste of time", surely a similarly motivated club or individual can find corporate backing to pay for clubs to spend time setting up local competitions like City South. You have to be in it to win it.

If Forestville get $1000 worth of improvement out of Sutton and Gange for the next ABA season, couldn't that be justified? I'm sure you have a problem with clubs spending on ABA teams, but I'm yet to see *any* club make more than a token effort to try and increase revenue from ABA games.

Re Smyth/Breheny, look I think Smyth could be asked to do a lot more media work than he does, but he's taken a substantial paycut, and it's pretty hard to follow that up with "Hey, how about donating another 250 hours of your time for nothing to the club?" It's a commercial entity, not a charity.

Does City South have a sponsor?

Reply #49366 | Report this post


XY,

I agree re volunteeers. Volunteering is a personal choice, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

My real issue is that I suspect that my club, and BASA (which my club is a part owner of) is being asked for money to help pay for the Academy program, and I'd hope they'd at least consider allocating it to junior development instead.

Reply #49367 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

isaac - city south is supported/sponsored by Sturt and Forestville. Not a corporate entity AKAIK.

Reply #49371 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Would introducing corporate support further its development? Or could other clubs get funds for a paid development position (as I think Sturt and Forestville have) by seeking sponsorship for their equivalent of City South?

The more money you have coming in, the closer you could get to paying coaches a token amount (at least) for their time. And I don't think sponsorship for that sort of league is stepping over any boundaries with regard to 'selling out'.

City South. DS CS, sponsored by Nintendo DS. Gets the product in the face of kids who are involved.

One of my earlier points was that the Academy concept was pitched to BASA, to clubs and to external sponsors. Has anyone from Centrals, supposedly needing to introduce a City South-equivalent, put together a pitch to BASA or companies for funds to emulate the CS program? If not, it's hard to blame BASA for seeing some potential in the Academy and putting up the money.

Reply #49374 | Report this post


Anon #49299  
Years ago

Isacc,

Not sure if City South has a sponsor or not. Or exactly what it costs to run and promote for that matter. But, I am quite sure that it would not only be making a profit for the clubs involved but also makig money for BASA in court hire. I think we all can understand that right now Basketball in South Australia is in a pretty difficult situation with the amount of money it owes. What I would like to see is BASA assisting my club to develop a local competition run by my club. That way would be able to increase the number of players in the sport while also increasing the revenue that BASA gets. Is that a bad thing? If it is a commercial entity then let it run as such. Proprietors put up the money and take the profits. Rather than clubs putting up the money for Paul Bell to takethe future profits. Or will we see a return of our money over the years from all these high level NBL players that are going to be produced.

Agree totally that if Paul Bell can get sponsorship he should be able to run what the hell ever he like. But why should an association that needs a masssive improvement in referee standard due to low income. Or domestic competition realisation, or improved service to junior teams regarding programming, spend money on something that will only produce second tier players that will be exactly like your examples of Illman, a guys who after 3 years works out that he can only get paid $20 for a full time job so leaves the sport. Especaially considering that we now have the necleus of a young team and Jo Ingles to come in.

I also do agree that Senior teams should run independent of their clubs junior programs and players should get paid what they produce. Just economic sense really. If a clubs junior program want's to donate money to the enior team that's great. But I think that you will find that it is junior parents who run committee's and senior players and families generally don't do anything. (including coaching junior teams who's subs pay their matcch fee's, at least at my club anyway) So how do you measure the $1000 improvement?

PS What is Strawman argument

Reply #49375 | Report this post


Peter Maravich  
Years ago

anon #49299 - I can see the point of your argument, but really, a strong competitive club isn't going to sit and wait for management to give it a handout. Your club instead (IMO) needs to look at successful clubs, whether it be the Sturts and Forestvilles, or broadmeadows and dandenong. Examine their strucure, how they operate and emulate the projects, iniatives that they do well. City South is a great concept, and all clubs should be running something similar, but how about lobbying your club to set it up rather than complaining that BASA funds are going to a different area of basketball development.

Reply #49376 | Report this post


Paul Arnott  
Years ago

City South doesn't currently have sponsors, other than general sponsors of the Sturt and Forestville Basketball Clubs, but both clubs have looked into attaining CS-specific sponsorship. I agree that it would be a good thing to have.

Reply #49377 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon #49299, thats better!
If you could have started rational posts like your last one 386,000 posts ago this thread could have been a positive one instaed of people thinking your a dick.

Reply #49378 | Report this post


anon #49299  
Years ago

I think that you will find that all my posts have been rational. That it is other anon posts that are not.

Reply #49380 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

All your posts have been rational?
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (breath) ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Reply #49381 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

A strawman argument is a distraction. Picture me attacking you with a bayonet. To defend your position, you stuff some spare uniforms with straw in an attempt to distract my attack.

Don't get me wrong -- I agree with your push in junior basketball. But what you are seeing is the Academy as a commercial entity as you have proposed. Business is about convincing third parties that you can provide a service or product worth paying for. Unless I'm mistaken, that's exactly what Bell has done (if we look at it in a cold light). BASA/clubs are funding his operation for those reasons. I'm pretty sure he hasn't put a gun to their heads to force a decision!

It could be that a future Academy needs no BASA support. Bell could farm out the roster to regional schools and take a cut to help prop up the operation. Or run them through a personal training course and then farm them out as fitness consultants. But then that (especially the former option) eats directly into what I think BASA do with the Sixers.

If your club wants to start a domestic competition, why wait for BASA to open their wallet? Borrow the blueprints from Paul Arnott, put together a document/presentation tailoring it to your region, take it to a primary sponsor and 3-5 secondary sponsors, and source $5-15k. Then use that as an incentive to hire someone to oversee the competition. Everyone knows that I have no formal involvement with a club, I didn't play district basketball, I don't coach, I don't go to AGMs, I don't have children that play the sport, but surely there is an element of feasability to what I've suggested?

If you have hungry young eyeballs, sponsors will be interested in getting involved -- branding on uniforms, signage, newsletters, giveaways, etc.

BTW, I think your info on Illman is a bit off and I think you're being a touch pessimistic. The difference between an Illman and a Rychart isn't massive. I'm sure Rychart has had people disregard him for various reasons -- his first NBL team didn't recognise his ability and gave him up, for example. I'm not surprised that there aren't loads of examples in South Australia of NBL players who didn't go to the AIS (like Holmes, Forman and Hill) -- that is one of the fundamental reasons behind the Academy. SA is seriously underrepresented amongst NBL players who didn't come from AIS or college programs -- some basic stats are available on the Academy site.

Reply #49382 | Report this post


Aono #49299  
Years ago

Isaac,

There are probably other ways of thinking about why we do not have a high level of non-AIS SA born players.

1) Over the yeas we have had only 1 team in Adelaide whereas Melbourne has had multiple. NSW has 4 and Qld has 3. And there teams are regonal who also have a couple of local kids to keep sponsors happy and get the locals to the games.

2) Due to us not having local domestic competitions we are not able to adequately fund our ABA program. Hence, Victorian kids come into a competition playing aghainst teams with 2 imports as well as high level local players.

3) We have high level of AIS athletes and don't really have much need for players who are second teir because we have top tier players.

So I say again, this money would be better spent developing participation level comeptitions which would then enable the Clubs to spend the amount of money on their ABA teams that would lead to there being no need for the Academy.

And finally, Just because seombody is able to do a good job of selling something doesn't make it profitable. Plus I know right now that if our club was to ask BASA for money to set up a competiiton similar to CS then Forestville and Sturty would both knock it bcak and tell uis to do it ourselves. Can you see Mesecke and Arnott letting somebody else improve their club and challenge them as the best club.

Reply #49392 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think arnott and mesecke would encourage your club
1stly; to join city south (cause all their kids are sick of playing one another and would like variety.
2ndly: to start your own within your club.All it takes is a focused group of coaches and administraters and bobs your uncle.Costs charged cover costs involved intially then you make a profit if you can sustain interest from all groups.

Reply #49395 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

If someone did what the Academy group have done, but for Domestic Competitions, do you think BASA would support that?

If I were BASA, I wouldn't give a club money to start a domestic program until they had shown that they were going to give it a shot themselves or had the right people on board to get it done.

Am I right in saying that BASA haven't pushed domestic competitions, and that clubs like Sturt, Forestville and Southern (I think) have done it themselves? If you'd taken a domestic comp pitch to BASA with corporate support and so on as the Academy did, and BASA picked one over the other, then I think you might have more of an argument, but I'm not sure that we're comparing like with like.

The rest of your points are well made though. What it's coming back to is that BASA are supporting one but not the other. I don't think you can throw any blame at the feet of Bell, Castle, Ninnis, etc for giving the Academy a go.

Reply #49399 | Report this post


Anon #49299  
Years ago

anon #49395

Dosn't make much sense having members of my club drive all the way out to Pasadena to play a social game. The idea of domestic competition is for it to be local.

And I do think that Sturt and Forestville would not like to see other clubs to be given funding when they were not.

Isaac

Isaac Says "If I were BASA, I wouldn't give a club money to start a domestic program until they had shown that they were going to give it a shot themselves or had the right people on board to get it done." Agree totally, then why would BASA give the Academy money without them paying for it first themselves. And because most clubs dont have as much money as Sturt and Forestville so we can't afford to pay somebody to set up a competition in the first place. So if we go to BASA now then we will be asking for them to support ours over CS.

And yes I do blame the people who are running the Academy. I blame them for deliberately misleading BASA and the clubs with their claims.

The concept is based around the need and our lack of non-AIS athlete's in the NBL. But the facts are quite different when you look at them with a little bit of realism.

On the academy website it is stated that we are behind QLD who have 5 non-AIS athlete's. Well they have 3 teams so infact we are probably the equivalent of 4 players in front of them.

WA has 5, but over this period in time they have had less athlete's attend the AIS than us, so really we have needed less to choose from especailly considering Alex Laughton went to College and Ben Tautolli got injured and missed his chance. These two both went to the AIS with Oscar and Jacob and would have taken the spots of 2 non-AIS athelte's in Perth's team.

Victoria has 11. Now, that is to be expected as Melbourne has had a number of teams had perhaps 10 times the playing numbers than we do. So we can't really use Victoria as an example. And we are probably doing a better job considering our numbers.

Finally the one that actually might have some validity is NSW as they have 4 teams but 14 players. About 3.5 players per team for our 3. Only just in front.

But if you look at the West Sydney team this year you can see 3 guys with the last name that ends in 'vic' that are all local kids making up numbers. Go to Newcastle and Wollongong as well and the last spot and the development spots all go to local players. Neiter of these teams have association in the area that produce any AIS athlete's. Newcastle have 1 Larry Davidson and West Sydney have Marcovic but the Gong have none.

So, my concern is that those people who pitched the Academy idea either,

a) knew all this and have deliberatley kept it from the non-basketball types and BASA who we know have no understanding anyway in order to push their own objectives, or

b) don't know all this and therefore haven't done their homework. In which case we have just signed on for another White Elephant.

Which do you think it is?

Looking at the people who started this they have done a good job of getting a coupoe of clubs on side and bullsh*ting the other clubs into believeing that this is actually going to help them and the 36ers lower the costs in the future.

But in the future we will only need more players if we lose the current young crop.

Our core group of young guys is Hill, Ingles, Holmes, Foreman. Add 2 imports. Maher has about 3 years left. Nash and Cooper aren't going anywere soon. That makes 8. Considering that we now have 2 guys other than Dodman in the National U/19 Squad 1 of whom is a guard and will pull a Brad Hill and go straight pasty all the kids in the academy. With the chance of him coming into the group just about the same time that Maher is nearing his end. Not to mention Ryan Kerten who is at Div 1 College and will be back in 4 years. And considering he was better than these Academy players as a junior level and has improved enough to make it too a good high level Div 1 School. As well as another kid in the U/16 All Oz camp(who is over 200cm's already), with probably another 200cm+ kid in this age group who will be better long term. I ask you what is the use of the Academy.

Is it a nice idea. Yes.

Is it practical and necessary and most important cost effective. No.

And I have one major concern. This looks to me as being a way for Paul Bell to 'use BASA' in order to become the players agent for all players in SA. To as you put it "farm out the players to shools". Now that comment probably comes from some private conversations that you guys have had and some of us believe is the true underlying reason for the Academy. This is not to help BASA club or the association, but rater to profit Paul Bell.

And my question is this.

Is this something that has been discussed?

If yes, then has it been openly said to the clubs?

If not, why not?

Finaly, if it become profitable then will BASA see a return on investment like they would if they set up a domestci competition for my club!

Reply #49485 | Report this post


Hmmmm....  
Years ago

Thats a great post.

Reply #49488 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I'm not going to dispute superior knowledge and experience in this area, but I will respond to a few points.

For Paul Bell to get any value out of players for whom he'd be an agent, they'd need to become successful. Strange that you'd be concerned about that, but don't think the bulk of the Academy roster has much future.

It's like saying that I put together Hoops SA to try and win all basketball-related business in SA. Which is something with potential, but not why I put this together at all.

When I've talked to Paul, he's been all about getting things happening. You don't seriously think he rakes in cash from doing Talking Hoops? Or trying to get Hoops TV off the ground? Or any of his other hopes. He might be more focused on ABA and NBL than your focus of juniors, but it's all basketball, and it's all effort. If you deter that effort, who is going to put together a radio show, or a TV show, or anything else?

The part about farming out a roster to help fund the program by running clinics or doing fitness training was my own thought and nothing to do with any private conversations with Paul. That's just what I'd consider were I in that situation. Whether he's considered that himself isn't really the point. If the Academy could become entirely self-funding, I can't see why you'd have a problem with it -- gives those who are a touch below AIS level at the age of 17 a target, can be flexible for someone like Brad Bungey who has potential but already has existing committments that are very important to him.

BASA have significantly reduced their payments to Smyth and Breheny, and cut Ninnis' position over the last year or so. Say they're spending $100-150k less (guessing $80k reduction for Smyth, $40k for Ninnis, and a bit from Breheny), and they've put $10k/year into the Academy with support from clubs. If you give it a raw evaluation that doesn't consider the change, you are arguing that $10-20k could be better spent. But looking at it in the context of the past two years, BASA have saved what must be $100k/year, and gained more involvement from Breheny, more involvement from Brooks and Castle, given a training program to 15 guys who might otherwise have drifted out of basketball. It also gives them something to showcase before occasional Sixers games. In the future, perhaps these players could increase their involvement in junior basketball (e.g., Sutton's role in Forestville)?

If you add a couple of experienced players to an Academy team and put them into the SEABL, how is that not a possible future step for the sport?

You asked a question with some fairly leading options (a bit like "When did you stop beating your fiancee?"). I don't think the Academy group have intentionally misled anyone. And I don't think they've started down a wasteful path. I picked a third, unlisted option: They have interests, goals and motivations that, in a couple of senses, compete with your area of interest for funding and attention. If they were lazy and dishonest, then I'd agree with it being "jobs for the boys", but they're not.

Reply #49489 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon 49299 or whatever you call yourself.

Please feel free to call me if you wish to debate the merits and "agendas" of the academy.

You can get my number from Isaac.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Paul Bell

Reply #49491 | Report this post


Anon #49299  
Years ago

Paul,

More than happy for you to respond on this public forum.

Isaac,

With all the savings that you have mentionsed above, BASA was budgeted to make a $400K loss last financial year.

And considering that the State Government will not pay of the debt when BASA is making a loss, IMOP any spending that does not reap a direct return in the short term is only leading to a long term of increased play fee's at junior level. A decrease in participation levels. And therefore is a backward direction for the overall development of basketball in SA. My club is finding it increasigly hard to find players who are able to afford the sport.

I'm not concerned about Paul making a profit as such. But more about whether this is a part of the concept, whether that has been directed as a process to the clubs, and whether BASA is going to see return on their/our investment.

I love the radio show and TV show idea and commend all involved. As well as this public forum, but none of these things have drained the sport of much needed money that could be better directed into turning over a greater profit. If you could show me $20K worth of profit from 'good will' then it is a great idea.

Plus does everybody here understnad how much BASA was spending to run the Buffaloes. We would be losing more than the Lightning. With airfares, accommidation it would cost over $150K per year to run a SEABL team. Again this would be fantastic.

Or we could put this money into developing junior competitions for all clubs. Increase revenue for BASA and clubs. Then when were have enough money for BASA to turn a profit, the State governemtn might actully step in and pay of the debt.

Then we would be in a situation where we can build more stadium for the increaseing number of basketball participants that localised competitions bring. Further increasing BASA and Clubs profits to the point where clubs would be able to afford imports, to pay all the 36ers players to stay here rather than going to NZ in the of season. Then the competition would be somehting for people to watch and hence be able to bring sponsorhip to furter expand clubs operations to have a senior coach that would be able to do the work to produce more NBL players who do not make it to the AIS becasue they are late developing players or just missed the cut.

But, hey most people on here think I'm crazy, especially those who are only concerned with the 36ers.

And lastly Isaac. Just becasue somebody did a good sales pitch doesn't make it a good sale. I rekon that the last guy running the show would have done a grear interview and got the job on that basis, and rightly so. Doesn't mean it was a good decision for basketball.

Reply #49493 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"#49299" where can we deliver a new supply of 0xygen, cause surely your supply is running low.

Reply #49495 | Report this post


Peter Maravich  
Years ago

Paul Bell, if you have nothing to hide, please respond on here so the public can understand your side of the story.

Anon #49299, ignore the knockers, your argument so far has been (IMO) relevant, consistent and worth a read (same for your argument Isaac!)

Reply #49507 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

To negative cynics out there:

Below are excerpts from Academy proposal to clubs, BASA and sponsors. (apologies about font etc).

Objectives and statistical reasons are included as to why we felt that the Academy should be introduced.

The whole project was carefully researched and planned before the "selling" process began.

A need was obviously identified, not just from us but from a range of different parties, including the clubs.

We then went through an exhaustive process to "sell" the concept to all parties concerned - to clubs, coaches, players, BASA, Sixer coaching staff, sponsors because obviously if the Academy was going to work then all of the above was going to have be on board.

The project had to be self funded as at the time, BASA did not have the funds available. They were given first opportunity to do so.

We believed so strongly in the program that we thought we would therefore do it ourselves. BASA agreed on its merits and were able to assist in other ways such as assistance with court hire and the provision of tickets for sponsors etc

To get a developmental program off the ground and fully fund it is difficult to do.

It makes me laugh when people who arent prepared to do anything for the sport then sit back and criticise the initiative of those who are.

The Academy is not a business as such. Profits are not made on an annual basis.

All monies coming in are then spent on overheads such as uniforms and equipment and basic wages for those involved. I emphasize the word BASIC as no-one is certainly getting rich out of the whole thing as has been implied in threads on here. If people are prepared to put in hours of work (and trust me when I say hours, I am talking about many of them) then some form of compensation is deserved. I assume people out there dont work for nothing so why should staff in the Academy?

It has been our intention to provide a flexible program for the players that covers a wide range of areas from the basketball and conditioning side of things to extra curricular issues such as life after basketball and media training etc. These areas are being added to the program on an ongoing basis.

Despite what you may think, the credibility of the Academy is strong with no less than 4-5 of the best performers being invited to trial with the Sixers each year. Do you think Steve Breheny would have agreed to spend more time involved in coaching if he could not see the merits of what we were trying to achieve.?

Please see below for further explanations from our proposals:



Overall objective: To help improve the quality and standard of basketball in South Australia, whilst developing a future player-base for the 36ers.



Objectives:

To have the players train at least twice a week on court. The on-court sessions will be targeting both the offensive and defensive plays, skills and techniques that are employed by the 36ers coaching staff. Additional training sessions, as well as additional techniques and drills, may be introduced if deemed necessary.

To introduce the players to a regular strength and conditioning program.

To have one additional off-court session at least once a fortnight. The off-court session will be aimed at educating the players on topics such as scouting, nutrition, life-skills, sport psychology, recovery, and strength and conditioning.

To make time for individual coaching sessions with Academy members to work on specific skills relevant to that player's improvement.


Why:
At the start of the 2003-2004 NBL season, there were twelve contracted players who were born in Adelaide. Of these twelve, ten grew up in Adelaide.

In the last five years, there have been nine South Australian players who have received contracts to play in the NBL.

Of those nine players, five played in the 2003-2004 NBL season  the remaining four are no longer active players in the NBL.

Of those five players, three did not attend the Australian Institute of Sport (AIS). These players represent Sturt, Woodville and North Adelaide.

At the start of the 2003-2004 NBL season, there were 38 players contracted who were non-AIS players and had signed in the last five years  South Australia has the fewest, with three: 14 NSW (37%), 11 VIC (29%), 5 WA (13%), 5 QLD (13%), and 3 SA (8%).

To summarise:
At the start of the 2003-2004 NBL season, there were 112 players contracted, and South Australia was represented by three non-AIS graduate players (2.7%), the lowest of any of the major basketball states.


Why - continued:

What are our ABA clubs doing to develop potential NBL players (i.e., individual coaching sessions with identified players)?

In South Australia, what elite development is available for players after SASI (if they don't go to the AIS)?

Without a national NBL draft system in place, NBL teams are free to develop and sign their own talent (unlike other sports such as the AFL). This should be taken advantage of.

The success of any player who has come through the academy (e.g., in the 36ers, US college, Europe or another NBL team) is a great advertisement for the program, and more importantly, basketball in the state of South Australia (e.g., Luke Schenscher's recent success at Georgia Tech University in the United States).

This is an opportunity for the state of South Australia to develop it's basketball further; to encourage and teach good habits that will aid a potential NBL player; to maintain interest and hype and encourage players to remain involved in basketball in South Australia, especially in an era where we are losing players to other states (e.g., Adam Becis and David Florance), as well as losing players to other sports (e.g., Matt Illman and Dean Brogan).


Benefits to S.A. Basketball:

The Adelaide 36ers  The Academy gives them a squad of young players, already trained in their plays and techniques, to choose from in case of injury or to introduce new, ready-to-play talent in the future. In addition, it gives them a forum to develop talent in areas of foreseeable need for the future (e.g., developing a player in a position that will need to be filled in four years time when a particular player (e.g., Brett Maher or Martin Cattalini) retires / contract expires).

The Central Conference ABA  By improving these players, the talent level and quality of play across the league will also improve, thus making the teams more competitive on a National level.

The ABA clubs  The respective clubs from which players are associated will directly benefit, as the players will bring their enhanced skills and knowledge back to their clubs. The skills and knowledge can then be passed on to club coaches and filter down through the club, potentially making junior teams (coaches and players) better and more knowledgeable.

The Player  The individual player himself will benefit as he will not only improve his on-court ability, but will receive additional off-court training in what it takes to compete as an NBL athlete. This may also increase the future basketball opportunities for the player, such as US colleges.

Hope this helps.


Finally, all players this year did not hesitate in accepting the invitation to be in the Academy so that surely says something.

Also, ABA Head Coaches have been very supportive of the Academy so that surely says something also.

I would also hope that the fact we will be attempting to start an Academy for the girls (and this has been endorsed by Chris Lucas)also shows even more that we are trying to do the right thing by basketball in this state.

And as for the ridiculous assertion that the Academy is only being established so further my "plyer management" aspirations then think again. If a player gets to a level where they would like my assistance then they are more than welcome to come and chat about it but this is certainly not something that is mentioned at the Academy level.


I would now hope that people's negative energy can be directed somewhere else.

Paul Bell

Reply #49511 | Report this post


Scott Ninnis  
Years ago

I have just been alerted to the above thread and while I havent read it in its entirety I must say I am staggered about some of the assertions that have been implied about the Academy.
To suggest that we mislead BASA and the clubs is one of the more disgraceful things I have ever read. To have any chance of getting the Academy of the ground we had to be completely transparent with BASA, its clubs, the 36ers board, Phil and Steve, SASI etc. BASA in fact, and quite rightfully so demanded this.
It is also the Academy intention to be fully self funded asap, hopefully next year. I as much as anyone am acutely aware of BASA financial situation, hence being 4000kms away instead of being at home with the club I grew up with.
As for the personal attacks on Paul Bell all Ican say that if their more people with his passion and drive for SA basketball to succeed at ALL levels then basketball would not be in the position it is now. To question someone who has put in an unbelievable amount of hours in getting programs like the Academy, Talking Hoops, Hoops TV etc. of the ground for VERY little return is staggering at best.
Finally, I am extraordinarily proud of my part in getting the Academy off the ground along with Paul Bell and Rick Castle and look forward to proving the naysayers wrong in the not too distant future.
Cheers from Far North Queensland,
Scott Ninnis

Reply #49513 | Report this post


Aono #49299  
Years ago

Paul

You have not really answered the above commemts as to the figures that you put on the Academy proposal.

Did you not consider that we only have 1 NBL team compared to the 4 teams that NSW have when you wrote about how poorly our state is represented? Or did you look at core numbers to better sell your proposal?

Are you willing to make public the financials so that we can see where exactly our $20 is going? Or are you going to hide behind the we don't want to tell of peoples income?

Will you be putting money back into BASA if you make more money from the Academy project in the future?

Do you think that considering the current group of young players. The number of possible South Australians that have the opportunity to attend the AIS, and that are already in college now and in the future. That any of these players will improve enough to move in front of the current players?

Paul Bell said "Despite what you may think, the credibility of the Academy is strong with no less than 4-5 of the best performers being invited to trial with the Sixers each year." These guys would get that chance anyway.

Paul Bell says "The project had to be self funded as at the time, BASA did not have the funds available." It has never been self funded. and "If people are prepared to put in hours of work (and trust me when I say hours, I am talking about many of them) then some form of compensation is deserved." The clubs and BASA have paid for it. All clubs in this state are run by volunteers. I would suggest they they put in huge hours and do not get paid.

Amd I'm sure that you will be more than happy to assist should a player in the future. The question is. Will this income that you generate from it go back into the Academy or into your pocket? Will BASA ever see a return on it's investment? Who decides what income is made by the workers? Do you know that many not for profit organisation that we donate money too have board members that receive salaries of over $100K? Not that you'd be making that sort of money, just an example.

Would love for some anwers to these questions.

PS. Exactly how much volunteer time do you do at West Adelaide and how much sponsorship have you organised for them?

Reply #49514 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Um, Paul Bell has been responsible for West Adelaides major sponsorship the last 5 or 6 years, the Wakefield Hotel and now Norbertos (the largest hotel sponsorships in the state league)
Your sinking fast champ.

Reply #49517 | Report this post


Farviewer  
Years ago

Congrats to Paul, Rick and Scott on seizing initiative and DOING something. Great for SA!!!

Seems, Aono #49299,09/09/05, is SA's basketball equivalent of the mega evil Darth Vader ... go back to the dark side Aono #49299, STFU and stay there. Your vitriolic diatribe smacks of jealousy and tall poppy syndrome.

Reply #49519 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

One thought about the Academy (and one that's not having a dig!!) -
Has there been any thought to perhaps adding an "apprentice" type coach? Someone who can pretty much learn off the high-level coaches who may be around or about to start high-level (say ABA) coaching?
For example, someone like Dion Greiger (sp?) who is about to coach West ABA men - it could be extremely beneficial to him (and flowing on to his players) if say last year he got to look at how Ninnis and Castle ran trainings, structures, the scouting thing mentioned above etc. and sit on the bench at their games (pre-Sixers ones)? I couldn't imagine the costs of this to be too additional would it?
I know it's not what the Academy is designed for - but I wouldn't think it too distracting from it's targets for little additional costs. And could show some benefits for SA basketball.
Dunno, probably a dumb idea that will be howled down, or may not be vialbe, or considered worth doing, just a thought.

Reply #49520 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Mate, your spot on. One of the things the Academy wanted to do from the start was to be of benefit to coaches, referees and the like. I know Ninnis had Billy Hopkins, Rupert Sapwell, Justin Schueller and a couple of others on the bench at various times as well as young refs doing the curtain-raisers.
There have also been various companies and individuals sourced out to provide off-court skills for the players as well, (Cliftons one of the sponsors provide training facilities I think.
Certainly not the sinister and devious selfish plotting Anon 49299 suggests.

Reply #49523 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon - your wrong, its probably one of the most sensible ideas, because

1) It won't cost anything
2) It gives a 'up-and-coming' coach a look at a different system/philosophy
3) It breeds an 'apprentice'

Reply #49524 | Report this post


XY  
Years ago

How about you post your income on a public forum #49299. Oh, I forgot, that wouldn't help, because you are anonymous...

Good work to all involved in the Academy, and I hope we see a strong Sixers team for many years to come because of it.

As for the above discussion, I found it highly entertaining. However #49299 it is time to give it a rest...

Reply #49525 | Report this post


Peter Maravich  
Years ago

XY - don't turn this into a grab bag argument.

Anon #49299 is asking for the financials of a project that is being supported by our association (BASA), not his personal income. What he earn's in his day job is his business, this project (supported by the clubs), should be as transparant as any other BASA project.

Reply #49527 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The money from BASA and the clubs go towards training and playing uniforms, payments to Breheny, Brooks, Castle and Bell, running functions, taking out BASA club presidents to lunch to keep them up to date, servicing individual sponsors, running functions at the Grand (where BASA has already benefited from having the Woollacott there instead of the ice box, I mean Dome)etc etc.
BASA has AGREED to help initially fund the Academy(they didn't contribute monetarily in the 1st year, the clubs did)and probably won't after this year, so you are still talking about financials from a technically private enterprise.
If people are that eager to know,ask BASA, they know where their money is going ( in this case anyway)but give this a rest for Gods sake!

Reply #49530 | Report this post


Agreed.

If the clubs are being asked to help fund the Academy, I'd like to know why my club should support it in preference to putting money back into junior player/coach development or a domestic comp.

Reply #49531 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well ask your bloody club then, don't shit can the Academy. It would seem that your dickhead clubs are the ones that you should be asking, they gave the money, no one put a gun to their head!

Reply #49532 | Report this post


Ease up! I will be asking my club if they intend to continue supporting the Academy. I'm just interested to know the arguments for and against supporting this, in preference to juniors.

Reply #49534 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sorry mate, getting a bit testy.
Just can't believe this has taken up 100 posts. It just seems to me that $2000 last year, $1000 this year and nothing from now on is a small price to play for most clubs for the Academy to ASSIST developing their most promising clubs (yes, I know that the clubs aren't rolling in it) but maybe you should ask your club why they don't put some of the money they spend on the ABA teams ($25000 salary cap) back into juniors.

Reply #49537 | Report this post


Mott the Hoople  
Years ago

I'm not sure why Aono (sic) 49299 keeps harping on about the number of AIS positions. Surely it is the number of AIS positions to the population of the state not the number of clubs in the state.

Anonymous 49520 I think that's a great idea. Sort of an Academy for a coach.

Reply #49538 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Clubs give $1,000; compared to what most spend for court hire X 2 a week to train juniors,( I know my club spends upwards of $60,000 a year on court hire alone) pay a JDO and training equipment plus much more you are talking small change, peanuts, not enough to argue about.
And if such a small amount can benefit basketball at ANY LEVEL in SA than you should be for it.

Reply #49539 | Report this post


Glenroy St Guru  
Years ago

I agree.

If your using Adelaide Juniors cash then we should know what its being spent on.

Reply #49540 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Using Adelaide Junior Cash, please get over yourselves. Juniors and their parents pay a fee to place them in a team on a court and the associated cost of being involved with a district basketball club. It doesnt give joe blow or the junior parent or the juniors a say in how their club see's fit to spend said fee in their club unless you have voting rights with the correct membership.And by the sound of this none of you are voting members within your own clubs so to come on a public forum and expect somebody ie Paul Bell to be anwerable to you is a joke. Talk to you club.

Reply #49545 | Report this post


Aono #49299  
Years ago

Mott,

I order to sell the Academy, of which I have consistantly said is a good idea people, just not cost effective. The people running it have stated that we do not produce enough National level of non-AIS based players. All I was trying to show is that considering we only need to produce enought playes for 1 NBL team rather than 4 that are in NSW we only need to produce 1/4 of what they do. Which we are already doing. Now I would consider these people doing this to be more knowledgable than me and to see this. If they didn't then something is wrong. Either in their reasons for it, or the methods in selling it. So an answer is all I am looking for.

Others

I dont expect Paul to put down his income. Rather a breakdown of what small renumeration the people who are running the Academy receive and how this compares to the investment BASA is making. I'm sure they aren't making heaps, but this would be an open way of doing business. Especially in the fiuture if thing is going to be making a profit. If BASA or the clubs are not investing then it should not be needed.

And I'm quite sure that $1000 dollars from my club is a very large amount considering the number of families we have that struggle to pay their fee's as well as those that chose not play in the first place becasue of those fee's.

Some junior people are very concerned about the fact that BASA is about to increase ticket prices for junior players but can still see it's way out to spend money that may not have a return. I'm sure that I'm not the only person feeling this way and all I'm asking for is an open response to the questions proposed. If this is offencive to Paul then I apologoes, but I would still like these question answered.

Reply #49551 | Report this post


thedoctor  
Years ago

My understanding of the (many) above posts is that the Academy is a private enterprise, not a BASA project, so no one really has a right to see the financials. It is arguable that the basketball public deserves to know what BASA is spending its money on. We know from the above posts exactly how much is being spent on the Academy, so what's the issue?

It is transperent in that we know the amounts BASA have contributed. BASA have deemed this investment worthy of their funds.Once the money is out of BASA's hands, why should anyone know exactly how that is spent?

If anyone is not convinced as to whether the investment is in fact worthy, why not ask BASA why they chose to contribute?

As stated above, no one forced those who donated/sponsored the Academy to do so. They believed it was a good idea, and I can't see how anyone can disagree without even allowing a chance to succeed or fail. How can anyone say it isn't even worth a shot in theory? Ridiculous.

With Bell, Rick and others putting in the effort to set the whole thing up, they should enjoy creative control and be financially compensated for their time too.

Reply #49552 | Report this post


thedoctor  
Years ago

Anon, you are discounting the possibility of Academy players being picked up by other NBL clubs or going on to high level basketball in other areas.

I don't agree that you or anyone has a right to know how much anyone is being paid in the Academy.

You know how much BASA has spent, that's the end of it.

Reply #49553 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just to add to the doctor, the Academy purpose according to its blurb is to improve the standard and quality ob basketball in SA whilst providing a future player base for the 36ers.
Everyone knows that not everyone will be a NBL player but is a player e.g Chris Clausen at 17 or 18 years old worth taking a punt on and giving him added high quality training? You would think so, no SASI or AIS involvement but hell with those genes you would give it a crack surely.
If the level of the State League improves doesn't this help achieve some of the Academy objectives?
I reckon listening to Breheny or Brooks couldn't be anything but advantageous.
It would seem that the Academy has already helped and will be a success.

Reply #49557 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

ok then. can someone explain to me why the Junior Domestic competition is such a waste of time?

Reply #49558 | Report this post


Anon,

I have an independent opinion.

Some people have gone out raised the funds and set it up. People in positions to make decisions have made their own decisions to put money in.

I have seen so many top junior players quit at U20s because they had nothing to challenge them, they were not going to make the NBL but sitting on an ABL bench for 3or4 years just to earn their stripes (and wait for the old guys to retire) was beneath them - why wouldnt it be? These kids need to have access to people like Brooks/ Breheney that have done gone that next level. They need the opportunity to train against other athletes of a similar level/age bracket. Many of the athletes that quit at the end of U20s would have never made the NBL, and they knew it, but they are lost to our game completely now because, I believe, there was nothing for them to move onto. Don't forget for a lot of the kids in the Academy basketball is their life and I hope it remains a big part of their lives after they finnish playing. Some of them are already coaching the next generation coming through.

I have nothing to do with the academy but when these things get setup we need to ask what is our risk/exposure?

If you are with a club that put some money in your potential risk/exposure is around $2K.

Let's put $2K in perspective.

1. Clubs spend $10s of $1000s pa on court hire.
2. The bigger Clubs spend around $15K pa on their coaching directors and development
3. $10s of $1000s on the ABL programs

With all the benefits listed above in all the posts and all the risks you highlight isnt the $2K downside really negligible? I wonder what Paul B's risk/exposure would be in terms of reputation, time invested etc. etc.???

If Paul Bell does get paid a small portion of the $2K, and you compare his efforts with the volunteers that put in time at clubs. I am mindful of the fact that 99% of the volunteers at the clubs would not have the contacts, time, experience, knowledge and skills to set something like this up. There really is no comparison with the people putting time in at the clubs and people like Bell, Brooks, Breheny putting time into the academy.

Put your logical hat on. They have gone out and got corporate funding, put in a large amount of their time for free and have a pool of experience you cannot put a value on. Taking into account your risk/exposure vs the potential and actual benefits I think you (and all of us) could be ahead here.

Reply #49562 | Report this post


Stephon  
Years ago

You make some decent points anonymous 49299 but most of those points are based on an assumption that the purpose of the Academy is to produce 36ers players.

I am in no way involved in the Academy program so am impartial but I think it is a fantastic initiative with many positive spin-offs for basketball in this state.

The Academy no doubt assists the 36ers but it also benefits the players themselves, the ABA competition, the BASA member clubs, junior players and people who purchase 36ers tickets.

1. Benefits to 36ers

You argue that most 36ers players are identified very early and are selected from the AIS such as Holmes, Forman, Hill and Ingles. That is fair enough but you only have to look at the NBA to see that not every high school phenom ends up being a success and often it is the players who go to college playing under great coaches who learn the correct fundamentals that end up being the better players (ie Dusty).

Look at the Sydney Kings. Mike Dunlap is in effect running the Sydney Kings Academy at Metro State College in the US. I believe Barlow, Kendall and Worthington have all gone through his NCAA Div 2 program and all three look to be outstanding prospects. I don't believe they went to the AIS and I don't believe they would be where they are now without the years of tough Dunlap training under the belts.

Look at how much the NBA teams spend on pre-draft camps (ie venues, coaches, psychiatrists, trainers, etc) to work out which player is right for the team, and more importantly will his personality/work ethic enable him to succeed.

How awesome is it for the 36ers to have the State's top prospects all learning the 36ers plays, seeing how they handle the higher level of competition, all while having the chance to examine their work ethic and personality to assist in making the decision of whether they can successfully make the step up.

I'm sure the Academy played an indirect role in Brad Hill being signed by the 36ers towards the end of last season after the 36ers saw him school the other Academy guards in a 36ers warm up game.

Just like any sport, there will be years that the Academy is low of NBL quality talent and other years where it is stacked. Same as throughout the 36ers history. One year we had Bradtke at Centre with a couple of young centres in Wheeler and Rogers on the squad but not getting any minutes. The Academy roster wouldn't have looked too bad that year with a couple of 7 footers running around gaining extra experience.

If as you say, the State is producing even more exciting future prospects then that provides even more justification for the Academy even if none of these prospects spends a minute in the program. It will just mean that the caliber of players at the Academy will rise further.

I believe the benefit to the 36ers will be subtle as most of our 'star recruits' will come from the AIS or college as stated.

However, for the money being put in and the reward of having the players become accustomed to the program and the awesome information at the coaching staff's finger tips about each individual player is well worth whatever BASA is prepared to pay.

Better to find out that a player is a head case at the Academy than after signed to say a 2 year deal.

2. Benefits to the players selected

The benefits to the players selected to the Academy are obvious with extra training from top coaches and increased competition against the best talent in South Australia.

I would like to see an educational aspect added to the Academy program as it grows financially through the provision of University scholarships noting that not many of the Academy program will achieve $100k contracts with the current state of the NBL.

Could be run similar to a NCAA program where the selected players enjoy the benefits of extra training/fitness work and get an education at the same time without such a huge HECS debt.

As stated above, the players don't have to be signed by the 36ers for the program to have a positive effect on their lives. From a basketball only standpoint, the Academy could be a stepping stone into another NBL team's program or a deal overseas such as with Cioffi in Italy.

3. Benefits to the ABA

Again, these are mostly obvious through the improvement of the skills/fitness of the players selected to the Academy. The truth is that there is very little money on offer at ABA level in our conference and there have been too many talented players that have just given up entirely by the time they finish juniors.

The Academy may play a big role in keeping some of these talented players playing ABA for a lot longer than they might otherwise have played.

If as Isaac suggested, enough money could be obtained to enter the Academy into the SEABL then that would be fantastic for both the Academy and fans alike.

Would be some great matches during the 36ers off-season such as Academy v. AIS that wouldn't be bad viewing. If run properly and at the Dome for bargain prices like $5 a ticket, I could foresee some decent crowds. Might even result in some decent interstate junior talent moving to SA in an attempt to be a part of the program.

Again, this is probably years off but a big reason why the Academy should be given a chance. Some of the benefits will not be obvious until several years have passed.

4. Benefits to the BASA member clubs

Each club that has a player selected to the Academy enjoys a great benefit. From an ABA standpoint, your top prospects enjoy specialist coaching and fitness benefits that will hopefully improve that players performance at ABA level.

I think we have already seen that with most players selected to the Academy last year.

Also, it assists the BASA clubs keep top junior talent who might otherwise quit after spending all those years playing at the highest level, being a part of the ITC program, only to find out that they have missed AIS selection because they might not have been given decent minutes at the National Champs, and believe their chance of ever winning a NBL contract is gone&all at the age of say 17!

Having the Academy to aspire to may keep some of these players in the game and who knows how good some of these players will be at age 21? Eg Dix turned into a far better player than many identified as 'can't miss' talent before him.

Keeping these players in the BASA program assists not only the competition in general but each member club.

It might assist some clubs more than others who have stronger junior development programs but I'm sure if we look back in 15 years we will see that the program has led to direct benefits for all clubs.

5. Benefits to junior players

You argue that the $20k would be better spent on juniors but the program already has huge value for junior basketball in general.

How much better a junior coach will a Matt Sutton or a Michael Zorich make after being a part of the Academy program and learning the techniques used by guys such as Ninnis, Breheney, Castle and Brooks? The spin off in this regard is huge. Look at all the great coaches that are produced by the Duke program. Not all the Duke players end up becoming NBA millionaires but the amount of great coaches the program has produced is astonishing.

Also, think back to when you were say in Under 10s and I'm sure we all thought that the 36ers players (including squad guys and even Buffaloes players) were gods. It is only as you get older that you start factoring in things such as money and more aware as to the differing standards of players.

You have to appreciate that Under 10 and Under 12 players will look up to guys who make the Academy while we may not care at all. However, if the younger kids have accessible guys around their clubs who they can look up to as being 'elite players' albeit not NBL All Stars then that is a great thing and can keep them wanting to come back, work hard and hopefully one day make the Academy.

Lets face it, making the Academy is a far more attainable goal than being selected for the 36ers straight out of junior basketball!

6. Benefits to 36ers ticket holders

Another benefit that has arisen as a result of the Academy initiative is the value added to our tickets should we decide to turn up early to watch the Academy v. ABA team game as opposed to just the 36ers game.

In summary, I think the Academy is a fantastic initiative and Bell should be applauded for his work in making it a reality.

People have been posting above that Bell is not getting rich out of the Academy but I say good luck and congratulations if he does. If the Academy is successful which most of us hope it will be then good luck to whoever makes money as a result.

Would be a just reward for putting in the time and making something happen for bball in this State.

Just a pity that Bell isn't a high power FTA television executive with the power to save the NBL!

With all of the benefits mentioned above, together with the fact that the $20k BASA would save by not supporting the Academy is negligible when compared with its overall revenue/expenses make supporting the Academy a no-brainer in my opinion.

Reply #49590 | Report this post


Peter Maravich  
Years ago

heres my problem with all of this...

Isaac - (#49374) said "the Academy concept was pitched to BASA"

great, and they didn't want to buy into it, so Paul Bell did it.

So why then did BASA then turn around and say, we don't want to do it, but here's $20k out of our pocket, and another $10k from the clubs directly. that's $3k from each club (don't forget BASA is owned by the clubs).

The financial Situation with BASA is not healthy, consider this...

Govt has said to BASA, turn a profit in the 2005/2006 financial year, or we'll call our loan (effectivle closing down BASA, and reposesing all stdiums). BASA falls anywhere between $1 - $29,999 short. All of a sudden that money is quite important.

While i think the Academy is a great idea with multiple benefits, and i too applaud Belly for what he is doing, i agree with #49299 in that BASA, if its spending money on new programs should be focusing on programs with direct monetry benefits, ie Junior Domestic Competition. These sort of programs are of more long-term benefit both for clubs and BASA's financials.

Reply #49598 | Report this post


cavalo  
Years ago

I think everyone knows and agrees that BASA has serious $$$ troubles and every cent counts.

THEY did a backflip and decided to offer $$$ to the aademy - Belly and the boys were going to go ahead without it.

Don't have a go at Belly and Scotty etc for all their hard work and initiative - have a go at BASA for another stupid financial decision! Remembering that is in YOUR opinion anon. #429.. whatever number you are - not mine and most others here on this forum!

Reply #49599 | Report this post


Anon #49299  
Years ago

Stephon,

Do you understand how much money junior basketball already puts into your beloved 36ers already. Or that the debt our association finds itself in is due in large to the 36ers needing a venue to play at that cost the association, well the amount of the debt. Or that over the past 10 years the amount of, firstly, gross over spending on coaches (Mike Dunblap was paid $250K per year and he cut a number of players on no cut contracts), and then the cutting and burning of tie's with local basketball and it's fan base have put basketball in the dire situation it finds itself.

Who do you think pays for all the people working in the BASA office? And how many of these people artuclly do anything for these junior?

Do you know that in order to pay for this and other new programs, BASA is going to raise the price on tickets for junior players in the coming season? That for a club like mine this will only continue to decrease participation levels and further widen the gap between us and those clubs with domestic comeptitions.

Nobody on here is saying that the Academy is not a good idea. Or that the players will not get any benefit. I do doubt that we will see any moer NBL level players come out of the program that would not have been able to train on with the 36ers and do the same thing anyway. And I am quite sure that Brad Hill was picked up because Smyth and brehney and the admin didn't want anoter Newley stuff up again. Rather than his performance in an U/20 State warm up game.

What is being said is that the main reason that it was pitched on (that the 36ers need a group of local players not identified by the AIS is misleading and that therefore the money would be better spent in saving our associaiotn from bankrupcy by putting it into domestic level competition which would actually have a short term and long term benefit to basketball in this state.

Is that so hard to understand.

Now looking at your points.

1. Benefits to the 36ers.

"Mike Dunlap is in effect running the Sydney Kings Academy at Metro State College in the US." So why not go and pick the kids out of college and the AIS rater than spend as you say "whatever BASA is prepared to pay" This would cost no more than a few phone calls and a bit of effort.

Sorry I thought you were meant to be arguing against me not with me.

Or Stephon "How awesome is it for the 36ers to have the State's top prospects all learning the 36ers plays" Well they are not as they are either in the AIS or in COllege as stated above by YOU.

2 Benefits to players selected.

We all agree that it is great for these guys.

But hey lets now pay their HECS bills. I'm sure Belly is willing to take a cut in pay to pay some of these guys HECS fee's. Again if sponsorsip can do this the fantastic. But if junior ticket prices increase to do this(as is happening) we will only be futher decreaseing the potential to get new players into the sport and therefore future revenue.

3. Benefit to ABA

Lets hope all teams are running the 36ers plays then.

If somebody can get enough sponsorship to have a SEABL team it would be great. But chances are that SEABL will not be around after about 2008 due to all the Melbourne teams moving into the Big V, leaving only the reigonal teams like Mildura, or Tassy and Canberra teams. The Tassy teams would then play in a State league, the Canberra teams would move into the Warrahtah and Mildura would be stuffed.

4. Benefits to Member clubs

Stephon "Also, it assists the BASA clubs keep top junior talent who might otherwise quit after spending all those years playing at the highest level, being a part of the ITC program, only to find out that they have missed AIS selection because they might not have been given decent minutes at the National Champs, and believe their chance of ever winning a NBL contract is gone&all at the age of say 17!"

I think that you might find that over the years without the Academy the cream has risen to the top anyway. But hey, anybody that is going to quit when they are 17 is really got the right attitude to make it as a NBL player. Not to mention that all of the guys in the Academy, will only sit on the bench as the 11t and 12th guys for 2 years until it is the next guys turn to sit on the bench for 2 years. All in the name of development.

5. Benefits to junior players

How many ABA players that you know coach juniors? Not too many at my club. Players don't become coaches by being coached by great players. Are you saying that everybody coached by Phil jackson will be a great coach. That is just plain wrong.

U/10 and U/12 playewrs and families usually don't even know that we have senior teams, expecting them to look up to Academy players, who aren't even the best ABA players is again jst way off the mark.

Saying that we are going to produce coaches like Duke. Sorry that is laughable. We might as well say we are going to produce as many US senators as Harvard.

But more importantly. People new to the sport never have any idea about antything basketball related. These are the same people who are told that fee's are $350 per year. Uniform costs $100, and now you have to pay $6.50 to play. We know that Golden Grove or the Pines doesn't expect you to pay that but come and play for us anyway. But guess what Matt Sutton or Michael Zorich is coach you so you'll be a star. Didn't you know they are in the Academy. Yeah right, gonna work.

6. Benefits to 36ers season ticket holder.

Are there such thing at the moment? Sorry couldn't help it.

Do you know what would help 36er season ticket numbers. Not increasing costs to families who love the sport. A lot of people I know think that the Academy is a great idea. Myself included. But these people also think that it is not something that a junior ticket price increase should pay for. More importantly they see it as people involved with the 36ers getting Scoot Ninnis a job when he was sacked. Again a good thing considering how Scott was treated by managment. But not a reason to increase ticket proces for juniors.

Put the money into something that will return it's investment and then when we have avoided being made insolvent. Which would mean a loss of the NBL license in Adelaide we could afford to run these types of programs.

Reply #49605 | Report this post


Stephon  
Years ago

Hey Anon,

In reply,

"Do you understand how much money junior basketball already puts into your beloved 36ers already. Or that the debt our association finds itself in is due in large to the 36ers needing a venue to play at that cost the association, well the amount of the debt."

Agree and have said on many occasions that past admins have made huge financial mistakes. Bit unfair to lump the miniscule funding of the Academy in year 1 of its existence as causative of BASA's financial problems don't you think.

Bit like SANTOS going broke and blaming their $20k sponsorship of an art gallery as causative!

You correctly identify crazy overspending such as during the Dunlap days but again, what has this got to do with the Academy and Bell?

I don't agree with increasing junior participation costs at all just as I haven't agreed with a lot of BASA's decisions but again, is the Academy causative? Would have the prices stayed the same but for the Academy? If so fair enough, but I seriously doubt it.

Re Brad Hill

I'm quite aware that the 36ers didn't want a repeat of the Newley situation and were quite aware of his talents. All I was getting at was seeing him perform against the Academy guards, and absolutely dominate them was a useful tool in terms of 'do we get Hill now, or do we just promote one of the Academy guards?'

Re: "State top prospects"

Agreed that the 17 and 18 year old phenoms will be at AIS but if you look back in say 20 years, I'm sure we will agree that some awesome talent has gone through the Academy program and it provides young players with another alternative as not all good players get offered fully loaded Div 1 NCAA scholarships and the ones that do might never play a game for the 36ers such as Schenscher in any event.

Re: HECS fees. I know that the Academy isn't in a financial situation to provide any form of assistance at the moment. That doesn't meant that say Uni of SA won't sponsor in the form of scholarships or that the Academy might not grow to this stage in the future.

Re: players giving it away at 17.

You miss the point completely. It doesn't mean that they have the wrong attitude, it just might mean that without the Academy they don't have the right opportunities and/or support.

Re: improved coaching

No, everyone coached by great coaches don't become great coaches by default but it is a heck of a good start.

Oh, and I never said the Academy would produce coaches of Duke's standard so your Harvard-US Senator analogy is what is laughable.

I don't know any of the Academy members personally but hopefully Bell will support me in saying that the knowledge they have picked up from being part of the program will be passed down to other junior players who Academy members will no doubt coach in the future.

Never said that a club should market a Sutton or a Zorich as a coach because of Academy experience to increase their junior numbers, just simply that I bet their ability of coaching has improved ten fold as a result of being a part of the Academy.

Come on, that is so obvious that even the most anti-Academy person would have to agree with that.

However, agreeing with the simple premise that increasing the knowledge of the Academy members would have a flow on effect to those club's junior programs would see you acknowledge that the BASA clubs have perhaps got their money worth from a junior players perspective...which would be kind of fatal to your whole argument.

Reply #49615 | Report this post


BLAZER  
Years ago

great to see some emotion. It shows there is some big concerns about the state and the nature of the game. Just remember anon, this is just a step in the right direction to improving the situation, and as stated by a few already, wait a few years then come back and hammer your points because at themoment you are sinking deeper, but with some good points.

Reply #49840 | Report this post


Anon #49299  
Years ago

Blazer,

Never said that it is not a good thing. I agree that for the players involved it is a great concept.

However, what I do have a problem in, and I doubt I'm the only person, is that IMOP the way in which it has been sold to clubs, sponsors and BASA has been somewhat misleading.

That statistics that look like we are not doing a good job of producing non-AIS players is not really true. Which makes me think that then the motives are not what are seen. Also that when the Buffaloes were around we still didn't have a number of players come through that program into the NBL for the same reason we won't now. Which is that we don't need them becasue we are able to get enough players from the AIS who are already better than the Academy/Buffaloes players. Sure, there will be the odd guy like Gerlach and Hambour that sits on the bench for a couple of seasons and plays garbage time. But their spot will be taken by a higher level, new, younger ex-AIS players or another young kids to do the same thing. And we don't need to spend money or waste sponsorship for that to happen.

And Brad Hill, like Jo Ingles had an offer before he kicked the Academy guys arses. He was never going to be behind an Academy player, or he would probably have been playing in another state.

Stephon,

You can't spend money on the Academy without getting it from somewhere. Where do you plan on getting it from?

Stephon "Re: players giving it away at 17.

You miss the point completely. It doesn't mean that they have the wrong attitude, it just might mean that without the Academy they don't have the right opportunities and/or support." If they are not good enough to get the opportunity from there club then chances are they are not going to be good enough to make it. Or they need to move clubs for oppotunity. Simple I thought.

Stephon says "Oh, and I never said the Academy would produce coaches of Duke's standard" but "Look at all the great coaches that are produced by the Duke program. Not all the Duke players end up becoming NBA millionaires but the amount of great coaches the program has produced is astonishing." Surely this implies that the Academy will produce great coaches. Your words not mine. What then are you trying to say by bringing Duke into the argument The fact that guys in the Academy don't actually coach and that a number of the States premier junior coaches didn't ever play at a high level shows that there need not be a direct correlation between playing at a high level and coaching at a high level. As a matter of fact if you look at any level. A majority of coaches at that level were not the best players at that level. Smyth was, but Goorj, Black, Le Manis, Stacker, Watkins, Joyce weren't.

Finally, am not lumping the 40K that the clubs (they being BASA) have spent on the Academy as the worst case of mismanagement BASA has ever done. But given that I have already said that IMHO the stats don't back up the need, I cant see a reason for the money. Or more importantly, that money could go somehwere that shows a return rather than into someone's pocket. If the Academy is self funded then it is fine. Infact it is great. but will it be the straw that breaks the camals back. And when the new CEO comes in will there be another public outcry if the funding is cut. Just because it is a "good idea".

A lot of the arguments for the Academy are speculative, such as playing SEABL or getting University scholarships. But after 5 years and $100K if nothing comes of it what then. Money down the drain. Again.

But what concerns me most is that when asked about the possible misinformation Paul Bell has not answered. Nor about possible conflicts of interest (playeres management) that may not have been presented to the clubs. Or finally, will BASA see a return on it's investment?

Reply #49845 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon#49299 go blow hot air somewhere else.

Reply #49847 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #49299 - don't listen to the haters. You make some very valid and interesting points. Particularly abouts the avoidance of some specific questions. If other people weren't so close-minded perhaps they could too understand your point of view.

Reply #49850 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

49299: Where are you getting that "$100k after 5 years" from?! Did you read this post?

"$2000 last year, $1000 this year and nothing from now on is a small price to play for most clubs for the Academy to ASSIST developing their most promising"
Instead of the "waste of time and money" invective, how about starting some talk about which clubs have initiated domestic competitions, or talking about the positives that existing competitions are realising, or finding out what could be done to encourage clubs in that area?

Reply #49853 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

still... no one has answered those questions...

Reply #49855 | Report this post


BLAZER  
Years ago

maybe there's been too much dribble and covering the same ground posted.
All the points about funding i agree with, but, again, would you prefer the money was just wasted and not on something that has the potential to strike at least some silver.

If you were a player with the potential of Chris Clausen, would you be knocking the opportunity to battle with the best young talent in the central conference, along the way, being assisted by the likes of breheny and brooks as to how to make it to the next level.

If a junior at centrals, or any club for that matter, see's these guys development increase over the 2 or so years they are in the academy, and be looked at by either sixers coaching staff or another NBL club, will t still be a waste of money even if the level of ABL in this state improves...

Reply #49867 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon #49299, how many times are you going to on with this utter and complete crap?
I thought this had been put to bed!
Bell, Ninnis, Isaac and others have all come on here and attempted to clarify various aspects of the Academy, but you want to spout out and out bullshit about things like $100000 over 5 years which has been explained to you time and time again is completely incorrect.
As for your conspiracy theories about Bells sinister motives, maybe you watched too many X-files when you were younger but for Gods sake, get over it.
The Academy wages it should be obvious to you by now are not going to be made public but if anyone is getting over $15k I would be very surprised.
Why if you are so bitter and twisted about this whole issue dont you take up Bells offer and discuss it with him directly. Guys like Thommo and Stephon did this with the last head honcho when they had questions and got directly to the issues that were of concern.
But that wont happen with you because your happy to wage your own private vendetta behind your anonymous posts. Your just plain gutless, either let it go or do something constructive about it!

Reply #49869 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i think the issue here isn't so much with the program itself. Really, who can deny training with the best 17-24 yr olds, under the states top coaches (brehney and Brooks) with an apprentice coach (castle) in the wings will be a bad thing.

Aside from the unanswered/avoided questions asked from #49299, the thing that worries me is that BASA rejected the opportunity to do this project, but still supports it financially. Its fiscal management is questionable, given the outstanding loans to govt. and councils.

Can someone who knows Belly please ask him to answer those questions of #49299, as a further avoidance will only strengthen #49299's claim that he is hiding something, or has other motives.

Reply #49870 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

maybe BASA rejected doing it because they dont have the man power now to cover what they have to, so by supporting someone else not directly invovled in BASA is the next best thing. Duh!God guys this is not rocket science. The way "99 is questioning everything, any thing he would be invovled in wouldnt get of the ground as he would still be at the stage 1 going nowhere until all his questions are answered.

Reply #49871 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

49870 -- can you outline the questions you want answered?

I think we've established what the money goes towards (listed further up), and that the payments to coaches/etc aren't going to be revealed.

There was something about future profits, but surely any incoming funds would be put straight back into the program (e.g., academy for women, etc). And another question was about a potential conflict of interest regarding Bell being a player agent, which I think could be considered a bit insulting. I'm sure it was considered by BASA but left as something of small consequence in their decision. If he had a contract locking a player into compulsory agency upon entry to the Academy, it'd be a different story.

If you put your questions down in one spot, it's easier than leaving someone to troll this entire thread when they could be doing something more productive.

Reply #49873 | Report this post


BLAZER  
Years ago

hey Isaac, what is the highest number of reply posts for a topic, I know many of these responses do not relate entirely to the initial one, but surely it will be up there soon.

Reply #49890 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hardly!!!!

Click on "Most replies" above, and see for yourself.

Reply #49902 | Report this post


BLAZER  
Years ago

still up there though...

Reply #49906 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

BLAZER, this topic now has 130 replies. There are three threads which are 200+, and one which is 500+. As the previous person suggested, there are links further up the page which show the most read and replied to topics. There's also an option to order the topic index to show the Latest Action on the forum which is (going by the stats) reasonably popular.

Reply #49907 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

well this topic is indeed tedious, the way government sa works in situations like this is nothing to do with the price of milk and eggs? i understand what you mean but pauline hanson isnt a great point guard, she has to maintain a good dribble and mark latham definitely is the best post player to grace the dome.

word

Reply #125177 | Report this post




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