I'm guessing basketball is easier on the body than footy and less likely to lead to long term issues.

How many Australians make a comfortable living playing pro bball vs AFL footy?

Lets call a "comfortable living" 100k+ for the sake of argument.

Rough figures:

Bball- maybe 50 in NBL plus 20 overseas (very rough figures).

AFL - 550ish. 18 teams by around 30. A few rookies on each list would be under 100.

So 550ish vs 70. And there is solid part time money to be made in footy too- state leagues like VFL/WAFL/SANFL, and local leagues like Essendon Districts League or Eastern League here in Melbourne. More than second tier bball leagues.

Easy choice.

I played junior bball with Ivan Maric. Talented guy who had skills in several sports. Made emergency for state team at one point if I remember correctly. Played soccer at lunch times too. Picked up a footy at the age of 15. Made a good career out of it.

As I said, easy choice! Unless you're a chance at NBA.

And if you're talking about the international landscape, how many professional basketball teams are there? Plenty.

But many of them have import restrictions, so if you don't have any other passports then you need to be good enough to beat out international competition for Roster positions.

There are 351 basketball teams across 32 conferences in division 1 of the NCAA. That's roughly around 1,000 players per year coming out of that system.

There are 38-40 players on an AFL senior list, and apparently the average is now around $300k. 4~6 rookies, plus B-listers, get around $75k.
Certainly prima facie, unless you have a very good European career (or NBA), AFL pays better.
Should also remember that AFL starts at 18, whereas a lot of these kids are spending 4~5 years at College (and sometimes prep school) earning nothing.

And whilst some kids undoubtedly have the time of their lives at College in the US, I imagine it must be hard for some.

I don't know anything about WMDW's junior history. Was he ever considered an AFL prospect?

Historically the AFL has taken basketball prospects. This is starting to change with more players, particularly NBA prospects, heading to college in the US.

This is why Australia is starting to have a stronger international squad - we've always been good in the juniors we just haven't been able to keep players in basketball up until recently.

The NBA or the US college development wasn't all that international up until the last decade really. Now it's a legitimate prospect and talented Australian basketballers have a path to consider now where they could make it big - suddenly heading to the AFL isn't such an easy choice to make.

US sports is also becoming a more attractive option generally for Australians.

A player will probably decide based on their skills and potential - if a player has a good chance of NBA and enjoys basketball, they'd pursue that. If there is a slight/minimal NBA chance but very little AFL chance they'll pursue basketball.

If they are a greater AFL chance than basketball (with NBA highly unlikely), then they'll head in the AFL direction.

It comes down to which sport fits the player best, which sport they have potential to succeed in and make a reasonable living, and importantly, which sport they enjoy.

For me it comes down to genuine passion and enjoyment of the game rather than choosing another sport for money and career.

Average is 4-5 years.

Average wage is around 300kish but that's pushed up by the top players who earn 700k+.

If you can play for 5 years and earn yourself a cool million, maybe 350k-400k is gone in tax, that leaves 600-650k.

If you've got half a brain on your shoulders, you should be able to save at least 250k or more. Not a bad start in life for a 22 or 23 year old.

Typically those guys can earn part time money playing lower leagues after their AFL career is over, too.

All professional sport is like this to an extent though. Plenty of NBL DP's never become good enough to get a regular roster spot. Others like Cam Tovey or Darren Ng quit because a civilian career is more financially appealing- something that doesn't happen in AFL. (Unless you're talking people like Nathan Ablett who don't have the interest/motivation).

Another relevant point is that AFL clubs and the entire league is very well equipped with player welfare these days.

Most AFL players do part time study or business ventures during their playing days to assist in their post-footy transition. Clubs and the AFL assist with this.

@KET with this: 'It comes down to which sport fits the player best, which sport they have potential to succeed in and make a reasonable living, and importantly, which sport they enjoy.'

Spot on with that comment.

If you are talking about a player who can get to the elite level of basketball or the AFL it is a no-brainer, basketball wins every time IMHO and it is getting better for Aussies every year!

"If you are talking about a player who can get to the elite level of basketball or the AFL it is a no-brainer, basketball wins every time IMHO and it is getting better for Aussies every year!"

Fair comment, but it's a bit misleading without some elaboration.

- It's much, much, much harder to get to the "elite" level of basketball (NBA) than it is to get to the "elite" level of footy- AFL.

Because...

- A greater degree of physical gifts *and* a greater degree of skill, and more luck are required to get into the NBA.

Also...

- There are 30 NBA teams, made up of players from 40+ countries. There are 18 AFL teams whose players mostly come from the 3 southern states of one sparsely populated country.

I always go back to the example of Ivan because I played bball with him for several years. He had a growth spurt at around 15ish, growing to 6 foot 6. He was well co-ordinated. Also a popular guy and a leader in a team setting.

He was an elite junior basketballer. But was he ever going to make it to the NBL? Possible but very unlikely. SEABL? Yep, would've had a chance of carving out a good SEABL career.

To get into the NBA you simply have to be freakishly tall or freakingly athletic. If you're not, you need to be *ridiculously* talented. But if, like Ivan, you're 6'6, moderately athletic, well-co ordinated and you can develop a good ability to read the play and play the team game (Ivan's bball background no doubt helped here) then you're a good chance of making a career out of AFL. As he did, probably earning several million dollars.

@LV, I would not isolate the NBA as the only place for an elite level of basketball, however I would isolate the AFL as the elite level of Aussie Rules...

In reality, the elite level of basketball is played in Asia, Europe, Australia, the USA and probably other locations in the world, we all know where AFL is played at the elite level don't we...?!

True but as I said in a previous post, you have to be very good to take an import spot in a top European league, when you're competing with so many other players from around the world, America mostly.

And once you get to the lower European leagues, South America and most of the Asian leagues, how good is the money really? Not as good as AFL, I would guess.

In the AFL, 95 players earned more than $500,000 in 2015 and that number is quickly rising every year. Not bad at all. I'd love to see the numbers but I suspect there's possibly even more junior basketballers in this country than footy players. How many of those basketballers will go on to earn over 500k a year?


(source: http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/what-do-afl-players-earn-four-footballers-earn-more-than-1000000-in-2015/news-story/d4b406a2147b77d25d93a61e443d7cff)

Well, I think you can make an argument either way based on whatever statistics or stories you want to tell to benefit your side of this debate.

In the AFL you have a much higher injury risk, pounding on the body and shorter career, you play only half a season and once a week tops.

In basketball you play maybe three times per week and you can go from one season to another to get paid all year, plus your career can be longer in general terms than a footballer's.

I think you will find that in Asia, perhaps even South America and other places the elite competition pays its players quite well and it compares with your average AFL contract favorably.

Don't get me wrong, I love the AFL and the NBL, I really wish we had more positions for our growing crop of basketball talent, but basketball is like Soccer, it is a world market and some people posting on this thread may not be quite aware of how big that actually is...

I'm very much aware of the international side of basketball.

But I played junior basketball with a bunch of guys who ended up in various places- AFL footy, NBL, Big V. Also from talking to other people (One of my current teammates in social bball played juniors with Joe Ingles, another played juniors with Chris Goulding), it's clear to me that the opportunities are *generally* better in AFL footy. Not always, not for everyone, just for most people, and for people who are *good* at both sports (but not necessarily the best of the best in either).

Basketball is a sport that in many places is played widely but not watched as much. Where as AFL is one of the most popular spectator sports anywhere in the world and the related economics play a part in all of this too. (AFL's average attendance of 33,188 per game in 2016 placed it 4th in the world, behind NFL, EPL and German soccer).

That last stat was for domestic sporting leagues, refer here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

@LV, in the scope of staying fair and equitable can you really compare viewing public attendances between open air stadium sports with the capacity for 30k-50k on average with that of indoor sports that struggle to fit more than 10k on average?

And if so, then maybe compare the fact that one football game played weekly with a crowd of say 40k is not that far ahead of a basketball game played two or three times a week at 15k each time...

Like I said above, we can all make arguments to suit our cause on this one, and take all day doing it!

Bear, the specifics don't matter- the underlying point is that AFL is incredibly popular. The AFL's revenue base is far greater than any other Aussie sport, and players get the benefits of that in their remuneration, plus careers in media and everything else.

According to Roy Morgan:

- 438,000 Australians aged 6-13 and 184,000 aged 14+ play AFL.
- 748,000 aged 6-13 play basketball and 340,000 aged 14+.

That's 310,000 extra kids playing basketball and 156,000 extra teens and adults.

Now, 95 AFL players earned over $500k last year. With basketball a very small number (less than 10) earned millions in the NBA....and how many others would be over $500k? Heck, how many others would be over 300k? Another small handful, perhaps.

Think of this in terms of a hypothetical scenario: If you were 15 years old, and you had to stick with one sport only due to the intensity of training etc. You are about the 5th or 10th best Under 16's basketballer in the country, and you are also in the top 10 in the country for Under 16's in AFL footy...if your priority is the opportunity to make a good living then the choice would be fairly easy.

If, on the other hand you're a Thon Maker, 7 foot tall, a freak athlete then you'd go the basketball path.

Source:

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/6123-australian-sports-participation-rates-among-children-and-adults-december-2014-201503182151

Thanks anon^, nice that someone gets it. Once again I will state that I love both footy and hoops, but I think there is plenty of opportunity for basketball and maybe football here has reached or is reaching its peek.

On a world stage if you are a young kid with basketball talent you can earn very well indeed, you can also travel the world and set yourself up very nicely.

You can do that staying here and playing footy too, but there is also a cap on how much further the AFL can expand, how much more money it can make and how much more opportunity exists in the future of the sport here.

Sure, the AFL could expand internationally, but that is a big risk and we know how quickly it can turn bad, just ask the NBL!

I see one sport as good an option as the other and with hoops there is vastly more scope to venture out and make your mark on the international stage, and you don't have to be a 7'1" freak of nature necessarily either (Just ask Delly about that one)...

Note The Roy Morgan data doesn't split males/females. Would skew the numbers a bit but it doesn't really impact on the point: There are more basketball players, but there are better earning opportunities in AFL unless you're talking purely about the best 10 basketballers.

Bear- for every Delly there are 100 Gary Abletts, Jack Stevens', Tom Rockliffs, Dustin Martins, Kieran Jacks etc etc etc etc etc.

That's kind of the whole point.

There's no guarantee that basketball continues to grow internationally either. Sports are constantly competing and this stuff comes and goes in waves of popularity. For example NBA is making a recovery right now but post Jordan, from about 2000 - 2010 or there abouts, NBA was getting absolutely destroyed by NFL in terms of growth of popularity (NFL has always been much bigger, I'm talking purely growth rates).

Basketball is one of two truly international sports in that it's played everywhere in the world like Soccer.

But AFL is easily, by far and away the dominant spectator sport in this country- the 13th biggest economy in the world - and that doesn't look like changing any time soon. And this is despite more juniors playing other sports than AFL! So if you're a talented junior athlete, AFL is more than likely going to be the best choice, depending on your individual circumstances. It's simple really.

I am going back to this - @KET with this: 'It comes down to which sport fits the player best, which sport they have potential to succeed in and make a reasonable living, and importantly, which sport they enjoy.'

Because I feel I am on a no exit round-a-bout right now...

"Bear is on the money, you can play yearly, some the Nbl guys pick up 30/50g extra after season finishes for a few moths work I.e. Porto Rico normally tax free US dollars. Both South Korea and China also have high paying leagues and if the game keeps going well in Australia it will soon be good again and it ain't to bad now."

So how many Aussie NBL players play Elsewhere internationally during the off season?

Plenty play SEABL or state leagues. How many of these guys go overseas and actually earn good money?

The NBL salary cap is $1.1mil with some exemptions for marquee players. If you're an average NBL player, you might earn $120K. Which by AFL standards is nothing- basically everyone beyond first and second year players (who mostly play reserves) would be earning at least that. If you add another $50k playing somewhere else during the NBL off season then that’s still only $170k...which is still nothing by AFL standards! (AFL average is $302,000 and rising, per the link I posted before).

Remember, imports who play around the world don’t count. This discussion is about Australians- who must compete with those same imports for international roster positions.

Bear, totally agree that it depends on the players circumstances. This isn't "one size fits all".

But I am just commenting on the relative opportunities, and I am simply teasing out some issues around the basic reality that there are lots of basketball players and limited opportunities unless you're one of the *very, very best*, whereas there is comparatively a world of opportunity right here in this country for AFL footy players.

It's probably a bit like comparing a career in music versus a career as a doctor.... everyone wants to be a star and the very best make squillions. Delly is like Bruno Mars, every second person on the planet sings along to his songs. Delly came from Maryborough and he owns the whole world. Your average AFL player is more like the little-known heart surgeon who makes $500k a year in relative obscurity, because there are about 10 surgeons in his own hospital who earn more...

You might want to check your calcs, if I'm not mistaken there's an error there.

"If you only play Nbl then obviously afl is a better option re money but there are a lot more jobs in basketball around the world that pay equal on a year basis if you are good enough."

The key words are "if you are good enough".

There are a lot more jobs, but there are also a lot more people competing for those jobs.

Remember, there are around 1,000 NCAA Division 1 basketball players graduating every single year. There's also thousands of elite talented juniors who play in their home countries and aren't in the NCAA system.

Seen Hoop Dreams? There are so many that don't make it. This is the same for AFL too of course, but I am suggesting there is a better probability of making a decent career out of AFL if you are a co-ordinated, athletic young Australian athlete and you have potential in various sports. Like Ivan Maric who I played junior bball with.

"There are a lot more jobs, but there are also a lot more people competing for those jobs. "

....and of course, there are *labour restrictions* that impact those jobs. Which is a very important point if we're comparing the prospects of young Aussies in Basketball vs Footy.

AFL players typically play til around 30, some a bit less due to injuries, many play well into their 30's (although by that point most are back playing in the secondary leagues.)
But if you consider that they started at 18~19, I think it would be wrong to suggest that basketball would give most a longer professional career.

As for which game you're most passionate about, that's not really the question.

Assuming that like most of these kids you played multiple sports at school and were good at many, at what point would you need to "choose" and focus exclusively?

I've sort of lost track of the debate but statistics aside, I'm thinking about it more from the perspective of the young Australian making a decision.

We can point to Euro $$$ and Puerto Rico etc. but that historically hasn't been much of a drawcard for players making a decision except those who are mostly in the basketball camp already like the Newley and Madgens of Australia.

As per the original question, I guess if you're a reasonable proposition of an AFL player and not an NBA prospect, and you have a foot in both camps (AFL and basketball), you'd go AFL over NBL. That's how it seems to have panned out historically.

Unless of course there are circumstances about passion ala Greenwood and Kyrgios or Euro family & passport ties.

Where things get interesting is the more readily available college basketball path and the greater attractiveness of working or playing outside of Australia. The lack of globalisation in sports up until early 000's has been great for AFL when it comes to taking Australian talent.

"Assuming that like most of these kids you played multiple sports at school and were good at many, at what point would you need to "choose" and focus exclusively?"

Ivan picked up footy at 16. But he was still playing representative junior basketball when he was 17, in 2003. Which is amazing when you consider that he was drafted into the AFL in 2004.

So I think the answer to the question is "At the point when your body and timetable decide that one sport is enough".

For most people, I imagine it's about 15 or 16 and at that age it's probably more about mentally focusing on one sport rather than spreading yourself too thinly. With VCE happening at the same time.

With Footy, the TAC CUP stuff wouldn't get super serious until the age of about 16, as I understand it.

seems the crows asked laura hodges to lead their ruck... jarry looks like a roughhouse footy player , flattened a few tiny little aians at olympics.... bibby playing also and erin of course...

Xavier Richards is an idiot, why on earth put yourself into the draft if you didn't have anyone showing rock solid, confirmed interest?

Assuming your number is correct (Sounds low to me...) he Could've turned his $150k contract into a $400k or $500k contract for the next one if he developed a bit.

And he's fringe 22 in the AFL! You need to be a starting 5 player in the NBL, or top 2 off the bench to earn that kind of money, including offseason earnings.

I dunno, I see all of these examples as supporting my point. I go back to my original question... of those 748,000 junior basketballers in this country, how many will go on to make a career out of it? A few. How many of the junior footy players will make a career? A lot more. Better opportunity, unless you're world class at basketball. Simple.

And by "a lot more" on current numbers probably 10 times as many!

If you're not especially keen on one over the other, you'd probably want to go the AFL route. Don't many players go on to get decent payments from regional footy teams?

Are SANFL players paid much?

don't think sanfl players are paid much , but they can get some good pay regional areas...
(hodges and phillips great footy names...)