Tough Bickies! Support United or GTHO!

:)

Basically while United exists there wont ever be the Tigers. United own the name, they just arnt using it.

The sh!t thing about all of this is that the United crowds haven't justified the change. Yet, at least.

The rationale given was:
- The Tigers brand is hard to sell.
- People from other competing junior clubs aren’t jumping on board.

Given those two justifications, IF Kestleman was right, then with 18 months of United marketing and making grass roots connections, we would see improvements in crowds. But we haven’t.

The first two games of the season saw crowds of 7,009 and my estimate for Game 2 was around 5,000 - 5,500 (I haven’t seen an official figure). That’s not good enough, given that:

- 5 game membership games are chosen by the club. The club chose the opening two games. So hundreds, if not thousands, of people attended both games but won’t be attending tomorrow vs Townsville.
- Full season memberships were going quite cheap this year. Prices were very reasonable.
- The Tigers had 4 games in Hisense during 2013-2014 and all 4 had crowds of over 6,000. Their last game had 7,500.

It will be interesting seeing the crowds tomorrow. They’ve been trying desperately to give tickets away. Last Friday, they let any junior rep players in for free (it is rep off season) and a Sportstix deal offered 43% off. This week, so far I’ve seen:
- Sportstix.com.au offering 43% off Silver tickets again.
- United facebook spruiking 20% off all tickets with a promo code.

So with all this advertising, marketing, etc, they still haven’t achieved substantial improvements over the Tigers crowds. This suggests it was a waste of time.

They can keep the United brand, just release the Tigers one / licensing / IP.

They basically killed all that history to a degree, apart from the fact that people still know them as the team that used to be called the Tigers. Fail.

Didn't they learn anything from the Sydney Spirit failure?

So now we are going to have five coaches going at it in an NBL game! - two on the sidelines and in the huddles and three out on the court, in black and white, or grey, or whatever.

The NBL referees co-ordinator is quoted as saying he is asking referees to "use their voices before using their whistles", which encourages them to coach - instruct players - during the game action and is yet another distraction from them doing their job, which is ensuring players play within the rules so we have a game of basketball instead of the other stuff so many teams and coaches seem intent on dishing up.

How I would love to see a concerted effort, over a month or two, at least, on having the referees using their whistles, instead of their voices, to keep players within the rules. I strongly suspect we would all be pleasantly surprised by the high-quality, exciting basketball we'd be getting at the end of such a focused effort.

That said, such an approach would need some effort to ensure the refs can recognise - and instinctively react to - what the rules say is the way things r should be, because that 'intuitive recognition' of what is 'right' has been at least impaired, and often seems to have been lost, by years [I use the term intentionally] of seeing so much illegal play that the illegal has become the 'norm' and so 'intuitively acceptable'.

Please, please, can we go back to calling the game so the game is played as it was intended, with a fair contest between players within the rules, which minimise but don't eliminate the benefits of strength, and a reasonable balance between offence and defence?

And before we start hearing from those who believe you can't have an exciting dunk without a player taking three or four steps, or post play without the defender bear-hugging the attacker, or the offensive man body-slamming the defender out of his or her legal position, you can still get 'exciting play' within the rules. We might even get more of it - and I strongly suspect we would.

lol

Bring back the City of Sydney Astronauts

Victoria Titans

I love the idea of a United and Tigers rivalry. With the right media attention, United could at some point sell the name, and the rivalry if marketed right could make a for Collingwood Carlton type of thing... again thats is a COULD, big could. As a Basketball fan outside of Melbourne, it'd be cool to see the Tigers back, loved to hate them.

I think you will see the Tigers brand released in 2-3 years once the united thing gets going. They know if they release it now it could make United's fans jump ship.

Yep change to the Tigers and bring back the Dragons - Along with Brian Goorjian!

Yeah thats what i was hoping for. The rivalry could be epic, especially with them owning the Tigers name, its very personal. The marketing opportunities could be huge.

The name United is so boring, and so are the uniforms

I urge all you Tigers fans to visit this site

http://wearenotmelbourneunited.com

I was referring to baller#3... I dont mind United, fun squad to watch this season, easier to watch without Worthington I guess!

@anon the Tigers were selling out The Cage in 2013-14

Also I'm not sure if you're from Melbourne or not but The Cage is a few kms out of the city and *much* less accessible than the Tennis precint for the majority of Melbournians.

If you live in the East (like 70% of Melbourne) and you want to get to Hisense, you get off at Richmond and walk 5-10 minutes. If you want to get to The Cage you have to go in to the city, wait up to 30 mins (on weekend) for connecting train on the Upfield line (or catch a tram up Elizabeth street, past hospital etc), spend extra 10-15 mins on public transport, then it's a 5-10 min walk to the stadium.

So getting to The Cage could take upwards of *half an hour* extra.

The Cage was simply not very accessible for Melbournians. Yet, with some marketing by Kestleman they started selling it out. And when they decided to move to Hisense, surprise surprise they start getting big crowds. And then they tell us the Tigers brand doesnt work. And here we are 18 months later and they're giving away tickets and they still couldn't get much over 5k last Friday.

I'm a bball man, and I've kept going to games (and I have tried to calm down fellow ex Tigers fans who,unlike me refuse to attend United games). But, the simple facts at this minute show that the United move was unnecessary.

I'm sorry, but all those suggesting that United "release" the Tigers brand aren't thinking straight.
WHO then owns the history and the championships they've won? United are going to look bloody stupid laying claim to Tigers' history when the Tigers are playing as a separate entity.
Why on earth would United want to split what fans they have?

Only way to "bring them back" is to convince management to reverse the process.
A tough ask, but slightly more chance of success.

I can understand what management were trying to do, But as somebody that appreciates history, I think it was a silly move.
Personally, and this is just an opinion, I think the uniforms are bland, and the name is boring. What do they even have as a mascot? Somebody dressed like a member of the BLF?
Tigers are cute, Tigers are ferocious, Tigers have claws, Tigers roar. What does a united do? Man a picket line?

I appreciate the dilemma they faced, but what have they really solved? Those who remember the Tigers as rivals will not be fooled by the change of name.

I reckon they would have been better off trademarking the Tigers' name, then telling the amateur teams "sorry you can't use the name anymore, here's $100k, change your name and go buy some new uniforms".

Dazz the present Tigers junior club is the original club, NBL Tigers were a commercial offshoot when professionalism took ahold.

Laughable comment that a club with history going back tothe 1920s

lol @Tigers.
Bring back the Dragons

Andrew Gaze cares about Andrew Gaze and that's it! he wanted to shut down your 'historical' league! LK, whether you like him or not, wants the game to be great in Australia, and he is willing to put his money where his mouth is!

I was a Tigers Junior, and loved going to Tigers games as a kid, but I love the NBL as a whole, way more than one team, so if the Tigers don't return to the NBL, so be it.

Sounds like some of you guys should go and join AG in making the SEABL the premier league in Australia.

One the giving away of tickets, well good on them, get more families enjoying it again, create the demand, and put on a good show! LK didn't making money because he was stupid, but I'm sure some of you keyboard millionaire's have a way better way....?

For the record, I'm not a Melb United fan, I just love the league and the game, and I think Australian basketball is at its playing peak at the moment and heading upwards!

The league was run into the ground by the 'job for the boys' system that they had since the mid 90's and the wise ones failed time and time again, it was fitting that they finally got a true business person to run the league and not amateurs. Well done LK and anyone else involved!

Tigers had some of the greatest teams in NBL history. Not from Melbourne myself but as a basketball fan I want to see the Tigers back in the league.
Just like a team from Brisbane should be the bullets, Melbourne should have the Tigers.

"As for Melbourne being a "mickey mouse franchise that will go under", ROFL. Their owner now owns the whole league. They are probably THE most secure franchise in the history of the NBL."

Dazz, you're joking if you think United is “secure” in any meaningful sense of the word.

LK is a businessman, more than a basketball man. He said it himself, in almost those exact words. Now, if in 2 or 3 years it becomes clear that basketball is costing this business man some money, what makes you think he will stick around? What makes you think he won’t bail like Fiddes or Cowan before him?

Very few professional sports franchises are “secure”. Especially Australian basketball ones.

Now, from a business stand point LK has missed the upside but still has the down side. He gambled on the upside of creating a new brand but as I outlined above, it hasn’t worked- to date. But he’s got down side risk because United doesn’t have the brand loyalty that the Tigers had. In other words if United starts losing games then there’s nothing to keep the fans around.

There is a small number of people who simply love the sport and will attend games as long as there’s a professional franchise in Melbourne. I am one of these people. When the Dragons entered the league in 2006 I went to a handful of their games and supported them- even though I was a fully paid up Tigers member, a parochial Tigers fan who was attending every Tigers game and doing media work for the Tigers at the time. (Along with the myriad of other stuff I had going on in my life). So yeah, you could argue my support is fairly secure.

But there’s also loads of people who aren’t like me. Most people gradually get an attachment to a sporting name, a brand, they go along to have a good time and support their team. Call these people the “goodwill contingent” who follow each team - if you want to use a financial/business analogy. The stronger the attachment to the “club”, the stronger the goodwill component.

LK has massively p!ssed off the goodwill contingent of Tigers fans, which is why the majority of Tigers members are not supporting United. But United has not had time to build the good will yet. So United is in a high risk/high reward phase of their existence. Given the high risk at this present time, it is bordering on lunacy to suggest they are “secure”.

They just need to get rid of the grey with green stripes strip and they'll be sweet. Ain't no fan gonna buy that off ya racks.

Crowd was reportedly 5,243, which is about what it looked like.

Oh god no, don't bring back the Tigers, I agree bring back the Dragons...

Can't believe all the weirdos saying "bring back the Dragons"?
A flash in the pan franchise with no history, no culture, and a destructive owner who spat the dummy, took his ball and ran home after first buying a championship and then falling out with the league.

I agree that "Nostalgia" alone is not enough. We need viable teams in viable locations.
I don't say we should bring back say The Falcons just for the lols. I tend to think that Newcastle as a city and region could "support" a team, and I think if you want to rebirth a team there then it makes more sense to tap into history, then invent yet another new team. But the same rules of viability and sustainability apply. (Mostly you someone or something with deep pockets.)

As for Melbourne being secure, yes they are the most secure franchise in the league.
Will LK nix Melbourne whilst he controls the league, I don't think so.
Could LK walk away from the lot when his 3 years are up. Possibly, but that STILL gives Melbourne more security than anyone else.
If the League folds, then any remaining franchises are pretty much dead in the water. Any franchise is a year to year (or week to week) proposition, relying on strong backers. Even the Cats, without Bendat, would take only a few bad financial years to be knocked on their ass.
I'd also point out, that if in the future we had a viable league, but Melbourne needed a new backer, they've got a better chance of finding the money in Melbourne tan most other teams.

From all that, I'm not arguing that from an outsider's perspective the re-branding of Melbourne was questionable. As I've said, the current brand is boring and unappealing.
Whether it is even possible to go back to the Tigers brand, (or to reinvent the brand as a new team) is probably a complex legal question around ownership of the actual rights.

My recollection was Cowan wanted to continue with the broken model, rather than adopt the smaller-spending model BA was proposing.

There was also the situation with Visy at the time, and there was speculation that with some funding uncertainty the Dragons owners weren't unhappy to end the losses after a championship?

The posts by Anonymous above show the diversity of views on this subject.

You have Tigers fans who refuse to support United because they feel like Kestleman is a mercenary who has unnecessarily trashed the name and destroyed the history of the club they support. The majority of Tigers members and fans I know fall into this category.

Then you have Tigers fans who have accepted United and started supporting them. There could be multiple reasons: Not overly offended by the change, or like individual players on United's team, or just love basketball more so than any individual club. I fall mostly into this last category, but also loved watching Walker and now Goulding being ex Tigers favourites.

Then you have non Tigers people, ie: Magic/Dragons/The "other side" people who have jumped on board with United, because they are no longer the Tigers and now there’s a team in Melbourne they feel like they can support.

And then you have non Tigers people who refuse to support United because they claim they’re just Tigers v2.0. Like our anonymous friend.

What a schmozzle.

One thing that does annoy me is this: It would’ve been better for the long term prospects of the NBL in Melbourne if Kestleman had kept the Tigers name. And as I’ve demonstrated in this thread, that would hardly have been any better or worse for his business than the new situation has turned out to be.

To clarify, what I meant by that last comment was that it would've been easier for a new, 2nd NBL team in Melbourne if Kestleman had kept the Tigers name.

It would’ve been easier for someone else to get a new club off the group that it now will be.

"The Dragons owner (Cowan) was smart enough to not continue on because the current NBL model they had was unsustainable, and he was proved correct.
Seamus despite initially withdrawing and re entered the Tigers into that already flawed model and look what happened!"

What a terrible leap of logic right there.

Forget the Tigers and the Dragons, get the Frankston Bears back into the NBL!

The change to United was because LK does NOT own the brand name and refused to continue to inject huge loads of cash building a brand he does not own the rights to. Simple as that. If you don't believe me look up who owns the brand name Melbourne Tigers.

Rumour was McPeake retained rights.

No NBL should exist without the Tigers/Cannons/Falcons/Bullets brands.. ;)

Don't know how true this is, but I heard the IP had been split between into two parts, professional and amateur level, with McPeake and the junior club owning each respectively. Someone who knows more feel free to confirm or otherwise.

OK, this is what I have been able to figure out so far:
There are three legal entities (companies in this case) in play:

a) There is a "Melbourne Tigers Basketball Ltd." This company is public and limited by GUARANTEE which is common for sporting clubs and other NFPs.
However this appears to be a relatively new company, registered only last year.

b) "Melbourne Tigers Pty Ltd", a private company, changed its name to "Melbourne United Basketball Club Pty Ltd." Self-explanatory really.

c) "Melbourne Tigers Basketball Club Ltd" is a public company. This is the INTERESTING one.
Up until October 2013, under BA, it was listed as the NBL club.
It owns the registered business names for the Juniors and Mens amateurs.
IMPORTANTLY, it owns ALL (3) registered trademarks for Melbourne Tigers.
As a public company, there is a little more info available, however according to the last info I could find Michael Slepoy was the Chairman and LK was a board member.

So in summary, "Melbourne Tigers Basketball Club Ltd" (a public company) is the one to watch.
Who owns the shares is the BIG question.
I think that as a public company if you do a full paid search it should show that information, as well as who the current board members are.
I haven't done a paid search, but I will continue to dig up what I can.

As a public company, there is a little more info available, however according to the last info I could find Michael Slepoy was the Chairman and LK was a board member.

Oops, should have spelled his name right...

Keep digging DAZZ, but all you may find is a deeper grave!