Anon & Anon - thanks for the replies.

I expect the buildings will be the most significant expense - just in terms of lighting and general upkeep. However, stadiums such as Port Adelaide and even North Adelaide are pretty ordinary. Upkeep there must have been at a minimum for some time now.

If anyone else out there has any more info on how the clubs financials work I would really appreciate it.

Interesting Anon - I assume then the clubs must pay some fairly hefty fees for use of the facilities then?

I've tried looking on a few club websites for financials but nothing there.

I realise I could go to the AGM's etc... but I'm not out for a witch hunt etc... just trying to get my head around it and thought there would be some people on here who know how it works in some clubs.

Captain, out of interest - what do you pay? (which apply and how much for each?

Annual registration:
Door fee weekly?
Umpires fee weekly?
other fees?

Good luck getting your club to give you a true answer of where the money goes. Yes the jurors pay huge fees to support the seniors who play significantly less to play for your club and at Premier League level they get paid per game. Have a look on some of the club webs at the fees list (not everyone will have that even available) then compare the fees. So a parent with an income has to fork out for their kids for everything and support singles or couples to play when most of them may not have kids or still young with kids. I do not agree and if your kid is playing lower levels at Division 3/4 and below then I would suggest better value playing at a domestic competition for far less, at the same place every week and spend your money on your family in other ways. You will also find in Basketball many clubs have 2 paid staff which adds to cost. Our other sport club for our kids only has volunteers so they have no wages, super etc to pay and we pay a third of the price of basketball. The other thing is basketball is all year round so doubles instantly. Good luck as I said before as most clubs are cagey at releasing detailed info and you may only get an overview.

Is the number of players per team an issue? A football squad might have 20ish, right? So probably double the number but can get away with one umpire for a casual game, one manager, etc. Is that a fair assessment?

Are there any efficiency gains to be achieved in basketball somehow?

HO and others, would there be any interest in a site that compares prices for all junior basketball clubs? Just so parents know what they're getting themselves into?

Isaac, I know in Victoria there have been price comparisons done but the models are really different.

For example:

- in some stadiums you do not pay individual registration, but a team registration then a team fee to play
- in the next stadium you might pay a component of individual registration and pay for games a different way
- others charge the whole season up front - so one fee covers everything
- in country vic everyone pays a rego fee to country and then the stadiums have different ways of charging (some use team sheet some use individual)

its really hard to get a straight comparison cost

In answer to the captains original question, I would think in Victoria that most clubs have a proportion of what juniors pay to play going to pay for costs of senior rep sides.

"Court hire is at least 75% of your fees at most clubs. Our club had a pie chart with all of this stuff in it, and it was by FAR the biggest expense."

yet i know clubs (associations) in melbourne getting there courts for peppercorn rates - so court hire is actually one of their lowest costs.

It just differs really widely from place to place.

Thanks for all the responses - much appreciated. I think the court hire would be a significant expense. Most of the junior teams I've seen have had at least one training a week away from the clubs home venue - so certainly court costs there.

For the record my basketball expenses;

Registration: $375 (Winter season)
Weekly umpire fee $5
Entry per adult spectator $5

Of course on top are singlet and shorts purchases etc...

Compared to football;
Registration: $180

No on going expenses. Guernsey provided. Must purchase shorts and socks (much cheaper than basketball).

I'm sure the expenses for stadium hire etc... would be more than football clubs pay for oval maintenance/hire.

I guess the bit that has me somewhat perplexed is the possibility that some junior fees are being used to pay people to play ABA. I find that suggestion to be outrageous.

Or am I wrong? Is it a reasonable thing to do in terms of having ABA as a pathway?

I would expect basketball clubs to be incorporated under teh SA Assocaitions Incorporatino Act.

Entites incorporated under that Act are required to have the audited financial report "laid before the members" at the AGM. If there's no AGM then it has to be "laid before the members" within 5 months of the end of the financial year.

They also have to provide regular returns to the Corporate Affairs commission. Frequency is determined by the Act's regulations and I don't know what it is currently. Not sure whether it's possible to access any of those returns through the Commission.

Some associated entities provide copies of their annual reports to the State Library.

Yes SA district basketball.

I know for certain that Basketball is much cheaper than soccer - their fees are absolutely outrageous! As I said, I had heard that the soccer clubs use much of the fees from juniors to pay their players in their Premier League and State League teams.

As I struggled to understand where the basketball money goes, it got me wondering if our district clubs are doing something similar?

Um yes district does.
Every match we pay $5 for a ticket for the players - the tickets are collected and counted by the referees at half time. If they don't have a ticket for each player, the player can't continue.
Every venue also charges $5 per spectator.

If two parents want to watch their kid play an U12 district match, it costs $15 per game.

In SA
Children U3 free
Spectators $3
U10 $5
U12 above $7 until you reach Senior Div 2-5 and youth League Div 1/2 then it goes to $9.50

So family with 2 players in U12 above is $20 a week to get in to games usually at 2 different locations.

15 week season plus finals = 17
18 week season plus finals = 21
Total 38 games in a year = $760.00 year entry fees for 2 kids

Then add fees twice a year, uniforms, shoes, holiday clinic, tournaments locally and interstate, fuel and the costs mount up.

Real costs are for the court costs for trainings and some clubs have options on better sprung or air-conditioned clubs so may charge more. Staff costs and then supporting senior and representative teams.

A small comparison, in broad terms anyway, to justify some football expenses to that of some basketball expenses (generally speaking):

Associations
Football clubs usually have more autonomy and flexibility in the use and output in dollar terms to that of a basketball club. In basketball terms it is an Association that runs the competition, not necessarily the venue and clubs will play games there, where as in football the club is the main body under a bigger league made up of much bigger clubs than basketball (all with their own venue).

Benefits
The result is that football clubs can generate their own income, through meals, drinks, fundraising nights, chook raffles, poker machines, entry fees to games (much bigger crowds attending), sponsors etc...

They can control this aspect of income, basketball clubs generally have only a membership fee if at all, then some fundraising or sponsorship if they work at it.

Associations collect fees for membership, door entry and sponsors but most do not run their own canteen and will have massive ongoing fees, but some Associations are in control and do have more income generating options such as canteens, like HO states there are so many variations in basketball operations or structures.

For the average player/family person involved in these sports they have to pay to play and wear a uniform, but the difference in how much extra we pay for the privilage to play basketball lies in the 'middle man expenses'.

As stated in some of the above posts, basketball is a complex and multi-tiered organisation, far more so than football.

Basketball needs far more officiating and people to run games because there are far more games in shorter bursts and while overall participation numbers might be similar in some areas, teams are smaller and there are many more of them so costs are less spread among team mates than for football.

So many more areas to compare, but I won't try to do so here. Not even going down the track of training costs or just using a venue to have a run (you can always have a kick of the footy on an oval without being asked to shell out cash because of running costs to have the lights on).

'What makes basketball so expensive for juniors?'
Answer - 'Almost everything.'

Captain,

Without looking closely or providing lots of figures, anecdotally that figure would be cheaper at the Melbourne club. (ASSUMING it is NOT rep).

- I would think that stadium entry fees @ $2-$3 per person
- weekly team sheet fees similar to you(maybe $6.00 per player?) (you call it umpires fee)
- it is the club registration fees i think that would be a lot less

here is Melbourne East:
http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-8916-0-0-0&sID=246617

and one of their clubs for rego:
http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=3513078

Don't think the canteens here in SA all make money for their club as they may have structures you are not aware of and income may be nil or minimal. Lots of assumptions going around and very little fact in relation to income from them.

Just another one that hasn't been mentioned - Insurance. Been involved in club financials for cricket in WA and the biggest increased cost over the last 10yrs has been insurance. So whether it's the club's own insurance or the facility's insurance costs being past on to clubs (or both!), don;t be surprised if that's a huge factor as well.

Generally insurance is a really small thing for basketball. The insurance cover is generic, covers players (badly) but good cover for clubs with public liability etc.

Thanks anon^, you are correct that the difference in the way each State runs its basketball operations varies so much in Australia it makes comparisons like this a nightmare...

Really interesting discussion everyone - thank you so much for your input.

Lots there that I hadn't factored in - insurance is a killer for many, many activities.

So two questions remain for me;

Does anyone know if clubs use juniors fees etc... to pay ABA players.

If Basketball SA in fact run the majority of the functions, stadiums, canteens etc... should we be asking questions about the running of the sport from that end? Basketball looks to have comparable numbers of players to Football, but Football clubs seem to run much better. Is the structure of basketball in SA a hindrance?

Surely sponsorship would be a big part of it, my junior football club had probably triple the sponsors of the district basketball clubs.

They'd dream about playing in the NBA, then settle for the NBL or SEABL when reality hits I think you'd find

248 - Domestic Comps do not generate much revenue if not any at all.
Running costs are the same as district as the refs, court supervisor and court hire still have to be paid to BSA. The coaches are paid for games and training, albeit low but many games are coached by youth members who commit to supplement their income while at Uni and cover petrol costs. Only way to get coaches regularly at this level so profits quickly reabsorbed. The cost to players are low to make it affordable to families and they still run trainings with all the same cost again for hire, coaches, etc. They also have someone in charge to run the competition as they have 20 - 40 teams per stadium at those that run domestic in Adelaide. All is not what it seems, again many assumptions without confirmation. There are many volunteers too that reduce costs. There is also managing Aussie Hoops which often crosses over between the 2. Its more about providing pathway for those wishing to play and maybe go to a district team and not always at the same place domestic is run. Again, assumptions and not facts. The only way to make money at domestic is to have 10 players in a team and that defeats the purpose of opportunity to play and most teams run with much lower numbers if possible. Court time is usually equal as well so great value for kids. Suggest to OP to try a domestic competition if not in Div 1/2 and not likely to make it to that level and save some money and time with less trainings. Sometimes more fun too.

As an side issue ,Ive been in many a stadium and watched quite a few persons just walk through not pay any fees( yes taken into account re-entries, coaches, parents roll in after kids ). Dont pigeon Hole the fee dodger ,they come in all manner of societies types .So did my own study( god yeah bored) whenever out on district games and now wonder if a turnstile with a bar code laminated ticket would be a good way to increase incomes collected ?

Court hire is the biggest cost

If I am not mistaken, you have to pay to watch kids play football, gates are usually manned and entrance fees paid on game day. The difference is that your kid might play two or three games of basketball a week, football it would only be one game.

Mostly a domestic game of basketball they do not charge entrance fees to watch, representative games, yes, but I don't see this as an issue at all...

Hi Bear,
You definitely do not have to pay to watch your kids play football.

For my Son it is $180 registration fee and nothing further. No sheet/umpire fee, no entry costs. The club also provides guernsey.

For my Son to play Basketball it is $375 plus entry and sheet/umpire fees each week. Plus purchase of shorts and two singlets (all more expensive than the football equivalent). Seems like a big difference.

@The Captain, I am guessing you are referring to a younger juniour age group there? When you say you have to pay to watch your kid play basketball, what level of basketball and where is it you are trying to compare with the football?

I would be interetsed to know specifically, it doesn't quite sound right to me...