Blackburn in YLD1 men, arrogant as they are, only have themselves to beat.

Cavs don`t win everyone in coaching and selection jobs should be instantly sacked, a lot of money spent if there is no title at the end of that. Have attempted to buy there way from D2 into state champ, lets see how it goes.

Stadium redevopments are all based around having a state champ team so they wouldnt want to fail.

State Champ Men - Ringwood
State Champ Women - hume City
D1 Men - Casey
D1 Women - Whittlesea
D2 Men - Westernport
D2 Women - Chelsea
VYC Men - Dandy
VYC Women - Knox
YL1 Men - Blackburn
YL1 Women - Hume City
YL2 Men - Casey
YL2 Women - Chelsea

Bear Hume City women have been the bench mark for state champ women for some time now, this would be there second three peat if i am not mistaken. Youid assume that the youth would then be strong to feed that.

Casey spent a fat stack on there men so if they don`t win everyone should be shown the door. The youth were next best after Keysy and Coburg last yar who both went up.

The other divisons are low divisions so yes they would be middle of the run clubs who will take them out.

Note with the exception of the youth teams I`d say the above winners all have spent more then others and have strong imports.

Bear interested to see what/who you feel are the power clubs at this level.

Ringwood would be up there, I guess we can excuse the SEABL clubs that take part in the VYC grades.

Bear the latter clubs you mentioned are all SEABL clubs so they will always remain up the top as they should. The BIG V has its own powerhouses within its own ranks but they would still be second teir tot he SEABL based clubs.

I am suprised that you say Casey are a decent performer and Chelsea you are surprised by, If you look back over the past 10 years i think you will find Chelsea have well and truly out performed Casey.

Waverly, Eltham, Bulleen, Ringwood and Hume City would be the bigger soley BIG V clubs and result over time seems to show that. They might not have the titles of some of the lower ranked clubs but how many lower ranked division titles would you ssay is the equivilent of a state champ title.

To put some context to that I would say Hume City would put more stock in there their chance at putting up there state champ title vs Chelsea`s chances at a D2 and YL2 titles.

With that said you can only play whats in front of you and the league you are currently in.

Money has allowed certain clubs/teams to jump divisions without success, is this right or wrong? Who knows but thats a different topic that has been covered on many promotion/relegation threads on here.

Looking around the leagues you would probably say a lot of the smaller to mid associations are over achieving and doing quite well. It is some of the larger ones that are under achieving.

Would have though a club the size of Eltham would be doing much better then they have with their resources at hand. A few years back they were killing it.

Eltham dominated with a Cheque book, not through player depth or development.

Big difference.

For a club the size of Eltham they massively underachieve.

Casey trying to do what Eltham did right now.

Three main reasons will get the decent players from the higher leagues to drop down.

Money
Relationship with players
Relationship with Coach

Not finals related but does anyone know where POTM for July are listed ??

Casey out of playoffs. Rumours Strong gone, Witherden retiring, Louis back to SEABL.

Casey will be a very poor team next season without recruitment.

Are they out, or do they get the second chance?

I hear Canovan from Latrobe hit a game winner for Latrobe to upset Warnambool on the road. With Casey now out, the defending champs may just go back to back. Was very unlikely 1 month ago.

Not only did Casey D1M go down, but so did their YL2M in a surprise loss to Mornington. It sets up a Warrandyte v Mornington grand final next week in youth 2 men. I didn't see the Cavs not even making the GF!

Just reading the thread and having been around Big V for only the last few years. There is a structure problem that allows any club to buy a championship. 2 US imports add in a SEABL and good local,and you have a Senior championship winning team.

If you want development look at youth league and Sr champ combined what clubs compete at state championship in both youth and senior. How many in the youth team played as juniors at the club. Or more to the point how many in Sr champ played as juniors in the same club.

Some of the scm and scw teams would be lucky to have 2 or 3 playing and then its as benchwarmers'

State Champ Men - Ringwood (still looking the goods)
State Champ Women - hume City (Bulleen or Ringwood)
D1 Men - Casey (Four teams left, not Casey)
D1 Women - Whittlesea (Lat Trobe or Geelong)
D2 Men - Westernport (Keysborough or Coburg)
D2 Women - Chelsea (Chelsea or Melb Uni)
VYC Men - Dandy (Dandy or Kilsyth)
VYC Women - Knox (Knox or Bulleen)
YL1 Men - Blackburn (Coburg or Whittlesea)
YL1 Women - Hume City (Hume still in v Warrandyte)
YL2 Men - Casey (Mornington or Warrandyte)
YL2 Women - Chelsea (Sunbury or Camberwell)

Not bad anon 539500, but it have proven to be hard to pick winners and some we all thought would be run aways were found out when it mattered.

god give them chance its not even lunch time

24/7? Maybe they need to work when they actually are needed and take mid week off.

Their roles aren't Mon to Fri 9-5, they chose roles that require them to work when needed.

Usually I find these schedules take until Tuesday evening to be finalised. Not saying it is good enough, but that is what we are used to getting.

July POTM still not done also, they find time to do their Unplugged video, surely recognising playing achievements and planning the fixture ahead would be more important.

I love the effort to put those videos together, but let sface it they usually have no idea of what is happening in any game just what they read in the stats sheets. Maybe they can improve next season.

I also love the effort but yes you're right about the content could be improved.

And what they do know they are not prepared to share anyway so most of it seems a bit pointless unless you know the "in jokes" or are happy to listen to shout outs to their favorite players or facebook friends.

To be honest the videos are only mildly entertaining and they just keep interupting each other or talking crap for the most part. What annoys me is that they have score sheets in front of them, but most times if they mention the highest scorer you are lucky. Why doesn't one of them buy a highligher and do some research before they turn the camera on. Could easily talk about who started a game, who had solid games with rebounds and other stats and maybe focus a little on a wider range of things to talk about for interest. Having a laugh is great, but why laugh at every word, continually?

Even do a bit of research into positions players actually play instead of continually getting them wrong as well.

Talk about some of the players/coaches around the league that people may not know much about also.

Why not do a spotlight player for every team and change it every 2 or three weeks. Surely there are players worth talking about other than all the useless 3 point shooters out there who can't play defence to save themselves. Most of them just jack up shot after shot chasing stats and cost their team wins but still get treated like basketball royalty when all they are most of the time is glory hounds!

I hear Casey have some very big names already signed up for 2016

You say focusing on improving yourselves then say next years team is shaping up better?

Casey is a young program.....

#Delusenation

HATERZ GONA HATE

GO CAVS

Am I missing something? Casey to SCM next season?

No team in 2012, Div 2 in 2013 coming 7th, Div 2 in 2014 coming 2nd and Div 1 in 2015 coming 5th.

From a development perspective, U16 on the bottom in met 3, U18 8th in met 1 and their YLM in YL2. How many of these guys will ever be good enough to play SCM? At a guess I'd say none.

I'm all for clubs improving themselves but don't you think a little bit of crawling before you walk and consolidation is in order first?

Gone D2 to D1 and then to State Champ all without winning anything.

And Casey you can defend yourself all you like, however most of the dirt and info that is passed around is from people within your own club who are not happy with the fact you are bringing in so many from the outside for a quick fix solution.

BUILD SOMETHING don`t try and buy it.

Yes an argument can be made for "well if we get a team into state champ we will be able to get better players to our club for the future" This still doesn`t help the development aspect of things.

The Youth team improved its list with players dropping from the senior team and a some from outside of the club. Two teams went up from last year yet they still failed to get further than last year. The natural progression isn`t taking place because there is no focus on developing the current stocks. You can say there is all you like but the evidence suggests otherwise.

The senior men have now had three seasons moving up divisions based on recruitment and money, not on success. It is no coincidence that a team that beat them in the final last year Is now looking the goods in the higher division, Success breeds success and builds a culture. Solely basing your improvement on recruitment from external sources is an extremely fragile way to achieve success.

There is number of players in the youth getting too old to play at that level, they are in Youth two, will they make the progression to state champ level? Not Likely.

The ambition of the club is great and obviously funding and stadiums were all based on teams being in certain divisions, with that in mind I am sure they will end up in State champ anyway. Won`t be Cavs players playing in that team though, will be more Dandy/external players at the end of the line. In a few years when they all retire what happens then? Do you just hope that because you are in state champ you will be able to attract more outside help???

Not hating on the club here at all as it is great they want to go somewhere just seems that they are heading somewhere they want to go so fast that they haven`t stopped to think if they SHOULD.

HUGH The Best club outside of SEABL comment??? REALLY ?????

Eltham
Mckinnon
Hume City
Ringwood
Bulleen
Whittlesea
Melbourne
Diamond Valley

All might have something to say about that.

BIG fish small pond---Actually the last two years finals have proven you are not even that.

Perhaps Casey should have a look at Corio Bay, been in SCM for 3 years coming straight in, played off in 2 gf's and won one.

How did that help their junior program? 18B met2, 16B met3, 14B reg & 12B met2.

How many of those kids will play SCM, probably none.

Corio Bay YLM in YL2, how many of them are up to playing SCM, I'm betting none.

Build from the ground up, don't buy it in because history shows it doesn't work. A SCM banner on the wall does not mean the club is successful.

I am liking what I see down Southern Peninsula way where there is a state champ womens team full of 15-18 year olds. Potentially if they were not snapped up elsewhere or headed to college they are set for years to come.

The on court successful clubs have juniors competing in VC from 12s to 18s, youth league at State championship level and seniors at State championship level. Un14's heading to nationals year after year. A sprinkling of jr state players each year.

If you're not there you're not developing a pathway all the way through. Start at the Un12s and work up.

Casey nation dream appears to be a dream based on cash not development

Bear, my knowledge is of seeing a handful of YL2M games over a number of teams in the last couple of years. I have also seen a few YL2W games and have to say that in both the standard is not that great. Sure the top teams are reasonable but the bottom teams are pretty ordinary to say the absolute best, even poor domestic standard in some cases. With rare exception, I can't see too many stepping up to be starting players at SCM level.

If Casey YL as you say have a couple that would make SCM level, good on them, but that still leaves a whole lot of spots that will never be filled from below, so I question why would you want to keep pushing up, using resources and money to do so, with no real pathway for the juniors.

The comparison with Corio wasnt a direct comparison so I get your comment about being a bit shallow, but it was merely an example that buying up the ladder of success does not guarantee CLUB success.

The last poster's final para is pretty much on the money IMO.

Surely there has to be some more ex Dandy and Frankston players that can get them accross the line next year?

Back on topic
State Champ Men - Ringwood looking good
State Champ Women - it's a 3 way Hume City, Bulleen or Ringwood.

VYC Men - Dandy over Kilsyth but only just
VYC Women - Bulleen over Knox based on what they did to Melbourne

The Big V CEO is good friends with someone on the Casey board.

I have on good authority that Casey in SCM next yeah is a lock.

A few hours ago
10:27 4 Aug 15

Reply #541014
re: Big V Finals
Gone D2 to D1 and then to State Champ all without winning anything.

And Casey you can defend yourself all you like, however most of the dirt and info that is passed around is from people within your own club who are not happy with the fact you are bringing in so many from the outside for a quick fix solution.

BUILD SOMETHING don`t try and buy it.

Yes an argument can be made for "well if we get a team into state champ we will be able to get better players to our club for the future" This still doesn`t help the development aspect of things.

The Youth team improved its list with players dropping from the senior team and a some from outside of the club. Two teams went up from last year yet they still failed to get further than last year. The natural progression isn`t taking place because there is no focus on developing the current stocks. You can say there is all you like but the evidence suggests otherwise.

The senior men have now had three seasons moving up divisions based on recruitment and money, not on success. It is no coincidence that a team that beat them in the final last year Is now looking the goods in the higher division, Success breeds success and builds a culture. Solely basing your improvement on recruitment from external sources is an extremely fragile way to achieve success.

There is number of players in the youth getting too old to play at that level, they are in Youth two, will they make the progression to state champ level? Not Likely.

The ambition of the club is great and obviously funding and stadiums were all based on teams being in certain divisions, with that in mind I am sure they will end up in State champ anyway. Won`t be Cavs players playing in that team though, will be more Dandy/external players at the end of the line. In a few years when they all retire what happens then? Do you just hope that because you are in state champ you will be able to attract more outside help???

Not hating on the club here at all as it is great they want to go somewhere just seems that they are heading somewhere they want to go so fast that they haven`t stopped to think if they SHOULD.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!
What i have been trying to convey.
LOOK at the Junior program and SORT out WHY so many talented players leave!
Certainly the growth around Casey is huge and makes sense that quality will filter through if given a chance.
Which leads to next point.
YL Mens Too many that are near expiry, off-load and rebuild (coaching rep can be more rewarding than playing knowing in your heart that not going on further after YL and taking up a valuable spot on the roster)using your quality U18's + 20's (that haven't left)

Parker and McKinnon to play Mens only.(If they stay)

Encourage and give the juniors incentive by playing the local players( yes, there are some good enough) and build up from the ground.
It's the old pyramid and hopefully you will get a couple of home grown locals at the end of it to supplement your program and build a culture on and off the court.

^ here here, absolutely spot on

@ #541244

Absolutely spot on. Such an approach shows you're clearly in touch with pathways within your program and equally realistic about where you program sits in the scheme of things.

Cudos to any program that takes that approach to supporting junior developing talent over buying a team and leapfrogging any local talent.

How many teams even at D2 level can claim that though?

-North East
-Mornington
-Collingwood
-Coburg
-Craigieburn (import as well)
-Maccabi

That would be it.

-Pakenham (Outsiders fair few from Keysborough)
-Keysborough (One junior the rest Waverly and Mornington)
-Westernport (outsiders)
-Oakleigh (outsiders Mckinnon developed)

At this level there is just as much if not more juniors being pushed out as there are coaches who are focussed on winning but are not willing to develop what there club has.

The better clubs in D1 and above have got to where they are by building things the right way. Smaller cklubs and especially at the D2 level continue to fight amoungst themselves for hired guns and players that change sides every year.

Haha Mornington are all outsiders.

Hang on I remember Tindal playing juniors for them, not.

Egan and Wansborough are it.

Who else other than Tindal? Hasn`t the rest come up from the youth side?

So when a new club approaches BigV to enter a team what obligations do they have to BigV to demonstrate that 1) they have a viable competitive team to offer and 2) they have a pathway of sustainability from within their program?

Surely BigV should be insisting the only way into their competition is through the YL door?

I.E a new club can only field YL teams for the first 2 years and them progress into Div ranks based on success?

There doesn't appear to be any checks, measures or accountability from the League to ensure the clubs are fielding teams that can sustain participation from their junior programs or teams fielded at a level that reflects the overall strength and position of their program in the VJBL...

Its "expansion at any cost" without any sustainability plan or accountability.

Sooner or later "top heavy" objects fall over...

This rapid expansion is also creating issues in other areas including officials.

Bear. From now on the ONLY way a club should be allowed into BigV is via the bottom, i.e YL2.

Field YL2 teams then grow from there.

It will force clubs to abide by the age restrictions applied to YL and force them to use juniors rather than splash money around.

Once they've been successful at YL2 level them progress that group into Div 2 and field reserves teams in YL2 again..

My experience with Big V as a club delegate is that they ask all the right questions, and it seems as long as you give them a good story, you're in whatever you apply for. It just seems too easy.

When CB came in, they put up a good story, Geelong objected heavily but to me their objections didn't have a lot of meat. It was a time when SCM and SCW both had only 8 teams and the league wanted to increase the number of teams. So now in 2015 we have 13 in SCM and 11 in SCW. I wonder now they have more teams (not necessarily all competitive) that they will be more selective in who goes up?

I think putting up a good story of which players you will poach/coax/pay to bring over is secondary to where will the future players come from? Without an underlying successful junior program I would think they answer to the club should be obvious.

There are already way too many teams in the competition, people are always coming on this forum complaining about how thin the referee pool is, Big V has grown from just over 90 teams in 2005 to now just over 140. Is the league as a whole any better off now but putting teams up and bringing multitudes of teams in under them? I don't think so.

My experience with Big V as a club delegate is that they ask all the right questions, and it seems as long as you give them a good story, you're in whatever you apply for. It just seems too easy.

When CB came in, they put up a good story, Geelong objected heavily but to me their objections didn't have a lot of meat. It was a time when SCM and SCW both had only 8 teams and the league wanted to increase the number of teams. So now in 2015 we have 13 in SCM and 11 in SCW. I wonder now they have more teams (not necessarily all competitive) that they will be more selective in who goes up?

I think putting up a good story of which players you will poach/coax/pay to bring over is secondary to where will the future players come from? Without an underlying successful junior program I would think they answer to the club should be obvious.

There are already way too many teams in the competition, people are always coming on this forum complaining about how thin the referee pool is, Big V has grown from just over 90 teams in 2005 to now just over 140. Is the league as a whole any better off now but putting teams up and bringing multitudes of teams in under them? I don't think so.

Everyone can have a cracked at CB going straight into SCM and critique their juniors. This is a young and upcoming club so it's going to take time for them to establish themselves and move up to the highest leagues in juniors.

I can see your points in regards to the top heavy.

What about the clubs who are considered power houses in juniors but have struggled in their seniors for quite a period of time. E.g Melbourne Tigers haven't been competitive since they had NBL players dropping back and playing.

Eltham haven't been competitive since they lost the grand final series to Ringwood several years ago.

Werrribee are really battling in SCM too.

Every club has players from all over the place. People move for uni, work etc.

The hardest part is getting the best players playing in the best league possible.
That definitely doesn't happen.

Merge D1 and D2. Divide in to geographical conferences.

Have SCM strict promotion and relegation the BEST 12 teams with bottom two with the dropping down into the combined group. Make it an elite competition that teams earn the right to compete in in the previous year through either proving to be the best in the underpinning comp or the competitive in the top tier.

If the clubs at the lower end are not good enough work to become competitive or leave.

It's fair and ensures you have the better teams in SCM with every club big or small given the opportunity to develop into a SCM club. Not get rich quick schemes and no staying up there because 17 years ago you had the money to get there.

Merge D1 and D2. Divide in to geographical conferences.

Have SCM strict promotion and relegation the BEST 12 teams with bottom two with the dropping down into the combined group. Make it an elite competition that teams earn the right to compete in in the previous year through either proving to be the best in the underpinning comp or the competitive in the top tier.

If the clubs at the lower end are not good enough work to become competitive or leave.

It's fair and ensures you have the better teams in SCM with every club big or small given the opportunity to develop into a SCM club. Not get rich quick schemes and no staying up there because 17 years ago you had the money to get there.

How can there be not enough referee development with the cost of these teams and the fees they pay every year to compete in the BigV, surely they just need to direct more of the enormous amount of cash generated into referee development to keep up with the size of the competitions?

Another angle to look at it. Some of those powerhouse junior clubs who don`t seem to carry over into seniors. Are they losing there best players to College and SEABL and NBL? The next level of players should still be good enough for them to compete though.

^147 interesting question. I think they run with the same number of staff they did a few years ago, yet now have plenty more teams. I'd be interested to see the Big V financials. But the point in referees is that it's all very well to say "develop them" but if the quality of referee isn't there to begin with,you are only developing substandard stock.

With Big V it seems that quantity is over quality and that is why the league at the bottom level is no better than average domestic.

Unfortunately the Big V is in horrible state at the moment. Drastic changes are needed.

As shame because it used to a brilliant set up and sadly it has been left to rot the last few years.

What is happening to the BIG V is something that has been coming for a few years, these issues didn`t happen over night. and they won`t be fixed over night. And organisation with 150 (nearly) teams can`t right the ship from season to season.

Easy to point the blame at the current management as they are the ones in there now. But they didn`t start this.

http://www.basketballvictoria.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF_BV_Annual_Reports/2014_BV_annual_report_compressed.pdf

Not hard to find the annual report guys, so for those of you who can read the financials and understand the cash flow, it should make sense. Page 57 of the 2014 report shows they make millions of $$$. How much they put into referees is unknown but maybe they should put more into those areas?

Our Vision
Basketball in Victoria:
The world's best sporting community.

Our Strategy

PEOPLE:
Strengthen capacity and encourage excellence at every level in basketball.

INCLUSION:
Ensure basketball is a sport that enables everyone to participate.

GROWTH:
More players, more people, more basketball, more community engagement and healthy outcomes.

FACILITIES:
More and better places to play - turn nobody away.

AWARENESS:
Promote recognition of basketball’s popularity at all levels of government and throughout the community.

LEADERSHIP:
Build the business of basketball by providing a strategic focus, developing and strengthening partnerships and reinforcing our strong and united community.

^361, sorry, what's your point?

BV turn over millions ($6.795m) but only have a profit of $170k. The year before they made a loss of $79k. On those figures fine line between profit and loss. But, no mention of Big V results, so no information as to whether they are a cash cow, or a loss leader or somewhere in between.

BigV is a stand alone entity.

You are using the wrong data from the wrong document

BigV Annual Report https://www.dropbox.com/s/doj83o1fuodjds4/2014%20Annual%20Report%20FINAL3.pdf?dl=0

You will find the the Operating Profit for 2013/14 was -$9782.90 see pages 22 to 25

Its about 1 million all up for BIG V and then you take out all the things along the way.

last year was 818k and had 10k left at the end. It is not run to make a profit.

They could go out and get a decent naming rights sponsor, this may inturn hurt some clubs local sponsorships if it conflicted.

Fees below for sides.

SCW - 11 teams @ $7500 each = $82,500
D1 Women - 11 teams @ $5900 each = $64,900
D2 Women - 9 teams @ $5700 each = $51,300
VYC Women - 16 teams @ $4200 each = $67,200
YL1 Women - 8 teams @ $4000 each = $32,000
YL2 Women - 9 teams @ $4000 each = $36,000

SCM - 13 teams @ $8500 each = $110,500
D1 Men - 16 teams @ $6600 each = $105,600
D2 Men - 10 teams @ $6400 each = $64,000
VYC Men - 16 teams @ $4900 each = $78,400
YL1 Men - 12 teams @ $4700 each = $56,400
YL2 Men - 11 teams @ $4700 each = $51,700


Total = $800,500

Ref development funds allocation went up from $41,00 in 2014 to $15,00 in 2015.

To be honest i'm amazed they can cover Referee pay and travel for 250K...

Clearly there is virtually no budget allocation for Referee development.

Biggest chokes this season - Ringwood SCM and Blackburn YD1M?

So, who will win Big V:

Corio Bay v McKinnon for SCM (I am going with CB)
Bulleen v Ringwood for SCW (Will stick with Bulleen)

La Trobe v Melton for D1M (La Trobe for me)
La Trobe v Geelong for D1W (Geelong to go back to back)

Craigieburn v Western Port for D2M (Western Port maybe)
Chelsea v Blackburn D2W (Got to be Chelsea)

Congratulations to:

YCM - Kilsyth in an upset over Dandenong.

YCW - Knox a one pointer over Bulleen another upset.

YD1M - Whittlesea too good for Coburg.

YD1W - Hume City over Warrandyte.

YD2M - Warrandyte got the title over Mornington.

YD2W - Camberwell v Sunbury is almost half time (Camberwell for me)

The Karma Train has finally arrived at Blackburn, all aboard!

Nope I have seen their arrogance and unsportsmanlike behavior first hand. Very satisfied when they choked.