Last year

And Wallace re appointed both these coaches again. Again they didn't achieve their desired result

Welcome to Wally World!!

NSW worst nationals on record.

Girls played off against each other for 11th & 12th... NSW Metro scored 28 points in the entire match. Doesn't get much worse than that. Worrying when the largest city (4.5 million people) can only produce a state team of that standard.

In the men NSW metro finished 11th. The only decent result NSW Country men who finished 4th.

Questions have to be asked... How can it be this bad?

Is Watkins disinterested because he's one foot out the door?

Maybe they should have stuck with Curtis Sardi?

#638 I don't even dare to dream of Tassie stinking it up with another medal again. We meat mortal states live in hope.

With all due respect Tassie or WA stinking it up and getting a medal a VM doing the same are 2 very different things. When you have the best junior comp in the country, expectations at national champs are high, and rightly so.

Starting to see the effect of massive expansion in vjbl. WAY too many clubs/teams etc. Talent has thinned out as have resources

SA girls looking good not so much for the boys program what's the story the stats show good shooting from two

How would VJBL expansion thin out playing talent? I could understand if you said it thinned out coaching talent or stretched resources like courts/refs etc, but if players are good enough, surely they will still be identified.

Facepalm

Anyone see the Vic Country coach at the presentation after his girls lost to Vic Metro?

Isn't it good ting for the overall health of Australian Basketball that other states are now strong enough to compete with Victoria?

On VJBL, if you expand too much it thins out the concentration of talent over a greater number of teams and drops the overall standard of competition which also slows the development of talent, on that point I agree, VJBL is expanding too fast.

You want the best 10 teams playing each other every friday night for an 18 week season. That's it. No VC/VC reserve bs, just play the best v the best.

That's elite. VJBL is participation with token elite later on.

652 are you joking? Or can you really not see it?

Let's take this point of view...

The best point guard in Under 16s. If he plays in a 20 team competition, every 3rd or 4th week he will play against another good guard. His team will be pushed in those games. The other weeks they are winning by 40 and he is playing against guys who aren't as good. He gets lazy. Playing at half of his best is enough to beat most other guards in the competition. he doesn't get better as quickly.

The competitive advantage that Victoria had is now gone.

10-12 Melbourne associations should break away from the VJBL and play their own competition for u12-u18. Remove their stadiums from wider use and administer their own competition. Might be a good change. The VJBL has become this amorphous beast. They get greedy, they keep growing, the keep bleating about participation but half of it is just pure crap and revenue raising.

Fill us in Anon #658

Not a good loser.

Afl talent identification now takes the best athletes before they're u16 top age in Victoria, so kids who played Vic Metro bball in years past who ended up choosing footy are now not there bringing VicM back to the pack with depth of talent.

Where is Watkins going?

How many are choosing AFL

What players should have made it for vic metro?

Maybe have a look at who is on top
Of the ladder of vjbl. That would be a start.

You cant make a comment about the Vic Country coach and then not elaborate !!

What did he do, you only have to explain what you observed, nothing wrong with that is there ??

Latrobe on top of the women's u16.
Isn't that full of players that just played in the tournament?

Or are we talking the men's side?

Latrobe is on top of VC and they do have a few players in Vic Country...who lost to Vic Metro

So what, none of this makes any sense.

Yes the Vic Metro girls squad could have been better but only by selecting 2 of the emergencies ahead of a 2 guard and a bottom aged tall.

But please DV parents, let go.

Nobody could find the Vic Country girls coach when the Vic Metro girls were presented with their medals.

Maybe he had a pressing engagement elsewhere.

Otoole for vic c I thought maybe unlucky.

Vic metro.. Not sure there were reserves that for sure should have been in the squad.
Ellis and lopes maybe?

They probably didn't pick oToole because she's still only 14? Get her shot next year.

Nothing about the emergence of Queensland Basketball, especially in the North of late?

Those that know the Qld rising stars already know, and those that already know, don't care about posting here.

The best point guard in Under 16s. If he plays in a 20 team competition, every 3rd or 4th week he will play against another good guard. His team will be pushed in those games. The other weeks they are winning by 40 and he is playing against guys who aren't as good. He gets lazy. Playing at half of his best is enough to beat most other guards in the competition. he doesn't get better as quickly.


The above is absolutely correct; And don't give me stuff about NITC etc, for over 30 years I've seen young players taught to do left and right hand layups from a young age, and only those who played in weekly competitions that actually required them to execute those skills in order to win, actually took those skills away with them to national championships. When those that still scored their 15-30 points in their local competitions with all right hand layups ( on both sides of the backboard)came up against other teams in nationals they folded. Those that had to use their left hand , or had to pull up for a 2 - 3m "J" then went on and did well.

Often those players were playing in senior basketball competitions at a young age ( Phil and Dave Smyth, Ray Wood, Peter Ali, Julie Nykeil, Patrick Mills, Andrew Vlahov, Darryl Pearce) all of these players dominated their junior teams but also started playing there local seniors early, while that local standard was still the "deep end of the pool" for them.

They had to use and gain all the skills they had.

We eat our own ..... Do other states call for heads like the Vics ?? Boys had no height and did very well, Qld played well and won. No disgrace

Unsure of the girls as did not see them

The issue with the Comp is that it is spreading the talent away from the best coaching on a weekly basis.

Having a 2 hour nitp or npp session does not make up for weeks trainings that focus on what needs to be done in a competitive game because there is no transfer because club can be doing things that are conpletely different.

Its no good doing all this extra training if you cant exploit it or have it tested in game situation.

The simple fact is spreading a finite amount of talent across 20 teams instead of 12 will diminish the overall standard of the competition and reduce the intensity and competitiveness of every game.

Instead of 2 or 3 state team level players in every team you get maybe 1 or at best 2.

Reduce VC back to 12 teams, and make VC reserve Metro 1.
It will force the best talent to migrate to the stronger clubs and better programs with better coaches.

The standard of coaching at the BIGGER clubs is not always the best these days either. In many cases it is just the mums and dads or senior players at these clubs now as well.

However if you have the huge numbers in your domestic programs the sheer weight of numbers is oing to result in more to choose from.

This is the reason parents are taking kids out of the bigger clubs these days as well. All very well paying the extra amounts if you are getting the premuim coahcing, if not then why bother just to say the kid plays at this club or that club.

You wouldn't just be pushing the best players to those clubs, you'd be pushing the best coaches there as well.

But more importantly, you'd be pushing clubs into doing more with their coaching and domestic recruitment at u12/14 level, to make the top grade.

"Nobody could find the Vic Country girls coach when the Vic Metro girls were presented with their medals.

Maybe he had a pressing engagement elsewhere."

^^^^^^^
So do you know where he was or not ??

#796.... Great post

Victorians should be thankful that finishing 9th isn't acceptable to the point where no one comments when you fail that bady cause it's OK.

SA haven't had a male medal during the new NITP coaches first two years. And the 18 girls team finished worse than they did in u16s for the first time in nearly 10 years.

Be thankful you have some standards and expectations.

I think your points actually backfire as to what you are implying.

U16 Metro Girls Silver/SA Country 5th
U18 Metro Girls Bronze/SA Country Silver

Certainly on the girls side this success is probably unprecedented over the past couple of decades and does not look like subsiding.

No it's actually not unprecedented

Those 18s got silver and bronze two years ago.

And in 2013 both metro girls teams medaled.

Sa met girls teams also medaled in 2011,2010,2009 and 2008.

So all that's happened in the last 2 years is the boys have gotten worse.

U18 men's team medaled in 2011.

922, randomly grabbing years girls teams medaled does not compare it to the broadbased, resurgent success in the past couple of yrs. The last time girls basketball at Nationals had such a successful run was over 15 yrs ago.

The boys results this year are an exact replica of the results in 2012. Hardly going backwards over past 2 years. And in 2013 was the probably the worse year since 2005.

922, do you possess any facts to compare with the broad based success currently occurring?

Agree somewhat with Rabbit. This current U/16 girls age group (and the bottom-aged 18 girls group) both had very good results at U/14 Classics/Clubs - before they begin the NITP program.
Without doubt the success at U/16 level can be attributed far more to the clubs of the players involved than NITP.

LOL I am not sure what Rabbit is on about (?!?!?!)....

Yes the clubs must be doing a good job Rabbit. Current results would indicate that too Rabbit.

Metro girls.

U16s 2008 - 2
U18s 2010 - 3

U16s 2010 - 8
U18s 2012 - 9
What a dark period that was!!!

U16 2006 - 4
U18 2008 - 5

U16 2013 - 2
U18 2015 - 3

Maybe instead of relying on people applying to coach the Vic Metro teams the VJBL should head hunt a few coaches instead and get the best possible person.

On the boys side there are few coaches doing great things in VC I would approach ahead of the current coach.

The whole lame argument about reducing the competition from 20 teams to 12 is a crock and this was demonstrated admirably in the gold medal game.

The MVP for Vic Metro was Sean Macdonald who played all forty minutes in that match lead the scoring for Vic Metro with 18 points, draining 5 threes grabbing rebounds and dishing off assists.

His club Oakleigh (one of the smallest), their competition VC reserve!

Maybe state coaches should have looked a little wider for some talent.

The problem with the system, and it will exist everywhere, is the whole state team and NITP system is setup to only be suitable to Coaches that are basically basketball junkies and have no other employment commitment or very flexible employment allowing them the time to participate.

What that means is we don't necessarily get the best coaches applying for these roles only the ones with time to do it.

NITP is skills based, it's not game based
training, so there is an equal reliance on the rep clubs and state team coaches as well to be able to take the skilled players and make them great game day basketballers too.

You need BOTH to be successful.

Problem with " approaching "these stud coaches is that they would not put in the time, effort and commitment required, for the reward of costing themselves significant $$$$ . Added bonus of being scrutinised by the masses wh have no idea what went on in the huddle.

Kid travelled, big deal they are kids... Didn't they make the game and lost by 4 to a good team ? Yep so are we that pretentious that no one can ever beat us !!

Put in the time coaching other clubs kids, other people's kids, take time off work and apply and win the job...

Maybe Basketball Victoria and the VJBL should put in dollars to the program? Pay to get the right coaches and also cover the costs of the tournament for the kids.

Is basketball the only sport that selects players to represent their state and then makes those kids parents cover that cost?

And don't tell me neither BV or VJBL have the money to cover the costs.

Also the state training is based on weekend and mid week evenings, so while it may be a challenge it is possible to arrange work commitments around AJC committments.

If the only recruitment pool is the NITP then god help us many of those coaches are below average.

The NITP system itself is flawed.

I agree there's no way on earth the players or coaches should be footing the bill for participation at nationals.

On coaches and NITP. NITP isn't the be all, there are plenty of quality players who bypass it.

The coaches involved in NITP do it for the love of it and because they can fit it in time wise, true they may not be the best coaches out there but hats of to them for putting their hands up and doing it.

Not everyone WANTS to coach at state level, to some it's a side step away from senior coaching.

Not everyone can coach kids either, there is a distinct difference between coaching youths and adults.

Then you have great skills coaches V great game day coaches.

So factor all those things together and it reduces the availability of coaches enormously.

A great SEABL or NBL coach may not be able to "lower" their expectations to work effectively with juniors.

To get the BEST coaches for the state teams you need to 1) make it financially worthwhile 2)find people WILLING to make the sacrifice in their lives to fit it in.

Again, once you look at all the sacrifices and compromises it takes to do those jobs you can't knock those who actually apply for the jobs and have a crack, even if they're not the best.

At least they had a crack.

"Is basketball the only sport that selects players to represent their state and then makes those kids parents cover that cost?"

Are you kidding? 90% of sports do this.

I'd like to know who all of these anonymous posters are that are saying the coaches aren't up to it. The girls lost in OT on a prayer to a very good SA Metro. To say that metro lost because the coach wasn't up to it is disgraceful and typical of Vic Metro. The boys had no height and from what I'm told, it is less talented age group to normal. They were impressive all week and if you were there, you would know that instead of taking pot shots on a forum. QLDN were great and had a kid that was virtually unstoppable in this age group. Metro did well to only lose by 4.

Do you honestly think the girls coach said 'don't carry a hand to the shot?' And the boys coach 'it would be a good idea to travel'? No. They're kids. They make mistakes. By your theory, the 2 QLD coaches are the only two that should be re appointed and all others should be sacked.

What would have been said of both teams won. "So they should, they're Vic Metro"? Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Doesn't matter who you get to coach these teams. Armchair experts will always exist and will always find something to sook about.

But Victorians continually tell us that VICM is so much better than everyone else that they could send two teams to Nationals every year...

Vic metro should go back to a 2 month lead up to nationals, it's been stretched out to a 6 month commitment, which is too much for the players, parents and coaches. The team used to have the 6 weeks prior to the championships to put their systems in place. You're supposed to have picked the 10 best players in the state, you're not teaching them how to play, just how to play for you and for each other. 6 weeks is long enough for that.

Yes, the lead up is ridiculous. Players & parents are forced to give up 6 months of their lives to be part of it.

Have to say you cannot accuse the VM Boys coach of favoritism he has taken boys from a number of clubs and one or two outside the NITP program.

I do though totally agree on the leadup to the tournament, far too long and intense and takes to may of these boys away from their club programs.

Quote: "Yes, the lead up is ridiculous. Players & parents are forced to give up 6 months of their lives to be part of it."

This is exactly part of the issue.

We now have a situation where quite a few people do NOT want to be part of this because of the drawn out time frame and imposition.

It knocks players AND coaches out of contention because they simply cannot afford that much time away from their lives and regular basketball commitments.

Shorten and simplify the process and more people will want to be involved.

Remember this is on top of everything else they do not instead of.

I think its pretty poor form to target individual kids in this.

You get offered a spot you either take it or decline it, we don't know how many other kids were offered spots and declined.

792, you just don't get it. Try a shorter leadup and just see what happens.

The improvement the players do the 6 mth leadup is substantial. They are playing and training against the best kids in their state, that will make them better no matter who is coaching.

"It knocks players AND coaches out of contention because they simply cannot afford that much time away from their lives and regular basketball commitments."
More like it knocks those out not willing to make the sacrifice to be their best. Every endeavor that is at highest levels involves significant sacrifice. If you're not willing to do that you are guaranteed of failure. Go look overseas and see how much the kids are training to get better. Ultimately international success is what we are aiming for and a 2 mth prep AINT going to cut that.

Back when Vic Metro used to clean swept everything they prepared for about 2 months not 6....

Its 10 years since I coached a State team but back in those days the 60 hour rule was in force. Everyone was only allowed 60 hours of training time to prepare, obviously this has changed??

Is that per week?

No. 60 hours in total practice time

Thank God we have moved on from the draconian days of 60 hrs limit on practice time which would, today, in modern times, ill prepare the kids for a national championship and probably not get our teams qualified for would championships.

346 that's 60 hours on top of everything else the kids are already doing, it was/is plenty of time when you've selected the best 10 players available.

Old argument of quality versus quantity.

Take quality every time!

Nothing wrong with selections on the boys side "Apparently in a week age group". They were 4 points away from Gold.Not bad for a week age group IMO

How bad are you people at maths? 60 hours is 2 hours a week for better than 6 months, or 4 hours a week for 15 weeks. I'm a coach. I've coached at that level. How on earth could that not be enough time? Did the Qld North boys (who weren't selected until April) really get more time than that together? Remember this is in addition to NITP and their club commitments.

60 hrs is more than enough.

The kids are already doing 4hrs a week for their rep programs, probably an hr for school and domestic training, then NITP.

There's such a thing as overload and burnout.

Any coach that couldn't pull an already fit and well skilled group of elite kids together in 12 weeks shouldn't be doing the job.

Agreed. I'm the coach who brought up the 60 hour rule and the 3 times I had a team for Nationals it was more than enough. That 60 hours also included practice games and looking back at my notes it was basically a 10 week preparation after the team was selected. That factored in 2 x 2 hour sessions most weeks, a couple of weekend camps and 5 practice games. The players selected were all quality guys that had come through either NITP or their own club rep programs, and the players still fulfilled all those commitments during that 10 weeks. I would say if you can't take a group of experienced players and put your system in in 60 hours you're not doing it right.

This may be a really outlandish suggestion, but instead of throwing out accusations, random questions, and making misleading statements with little to no facts, how about just calling one of the coaches and asking about the process, time commitments, and selections?

You may be surprised on what actually happens rather than what gets reported on here, especially all the logistical battles faced when coaching these teams. It may even encourage you to put your hand up and get involved if you care so much about it!

The issue is, state training, NPP, NITP, rep coaching. It is all more of the same.

Very basic coaching, completely focussed on plays and structures.

And the standard is average at best. So more is not better, it just prevents the best kids from having time to fit in quality individual coaching.

Making a state team sets your individual development back significantly under the current system.

If you're asking questions I'd probably suggest you are hoping for answers, unless you're just trolling and looking to stir the pot of course. Who better to get answers from, with accuracy, than the coaches themselves? Not hard to get a hold of their contact details, ask your Director of Coaching.

Yes, we do travel all over the state, which is also why there is a need to try and reduce the time and financial strain placed on families. Cost effective courts are hard to get, especially with so many being used for domestic or school sport on Saturdays. Then there is practice games, which invariably clash with club practices mid week etc. Once players make a state team, their NITP session becomes their second state session to reduce the load.

Reality is, state teams have to work around both club and school commitments. Not necessarily how it should be, but seems to be the case.

^^^ pretty funny stuff. Making a state team and playing at a National Championships sends you backwards?

NITP/NPP is the same as rep and state training lol

The problem is people peddling this diotripe to unsuspecting families to market themselves to pack a bunch of average kids, that don't make each other better into a gym. Packing them in by the masses to make a personal profit but no real way of measuring your actual output at a competitive level. These guys keep them coming back by filling them with rubbish about how good they are, they have D1 college potential and by the time they realise they were fluffed it's too late. I've been around and seen this time, and time, and time again.

Vic Metro coach carried on like a buffoon in the GF anyways. Protested every call and non call with his antics. He's lucky the refs he was trying to bully didnt do more than warn him.

"I am not from Vic."

'Course you're not...

#7440, I tend to agree with that perspective for probably half the kids who make the team.

The inclination is to coach the best kids to fill their natural roles, and to coach everyone else to fill the roles the team requires. While learning to do so is valuable for any player, I'm not convinced that in any given year, making the state team as an 8th/9th/10th man is the BEST thing for your development. When you think about the cost, and what could be done instead, I really don't think it matters much for a kid's development, as long as they are motivated and extremely hard-working.

Let's say state team kids spend 80 hours on formal preparations: 60 hours of training plus 20 hours of travel, early arrivals, warm-down, time between camp sessions, etc. Then they spend 10 days at Nationals. The whole process costs their parents about $3000, assuming their parents don't travel with them. If you put $3000 into 80 hours of individual coaching, and spent that time working on your own skill development, would you be a better basketball player than you are for having put the energy into a state team? Again, my suggestion would be that if you're playing 25-35 minutes a game at Nationals and really benefitting from that higher standard of competition, it's a worthwhile investment. But if you're playing 5-15 minutes a game at Nationals and still find VJBL or whatever rep competition you play in a good challenge, worrying about your own individual skill development might be the best thing for you.