NITP is so overrated!!! there are some average coaches in that program that sees kids wasting time on not developng their game.

Don't be fooled into thinking that just because a team in the VJBL has NITP or NPP players they will automatically be used the same way as they would in a State or National team.

Coaches in the VJBL are not the same and have their own ideas, their own favourites and their own problems in getting their team to play the way they want.

There is no comparison here, you are not making sense because you do not appear to understand how basketball teams work, sorry to deflate your original post @frustrating, but the sad reality is that all you have done here is have a bit of a whinge.

'The system is not working'

The system for NITP and NPP is not designed to improve VJBL teams, it is designed to identify potential for an elite pathway. Two different things!

Yes, clueless and unnecessary rant by the OP. Obviously their little darling has missed out on something.

You could draw that conclusion anon^, based on the second part of the OP's comment in relation to other kids being better. Sadly the OP has mistakenly continued with their post when they should have stopped half way through.

The numbers in the first half are wrong also.

Must be time for a post about Melbourne u18s not having anyone in teams about now.

Yep just like the boys U18 team with 2 NPP 4 NITP and they ended up in middle of bottom half with just 3 wins after round 9 in VC.

Not to mention mates of head coaches who have no idea what they are doing being given a team and ruining their year.

Absolutely ture OP. The thing about this post is that if your kids are in the NITP program you say the OP has no idea. My child is in the NITP program. We are greatful for the opportunity. I do see many players that are just as skillfull and competitive that are not NITP. Some of of them took our team apart as they always have in the first half of the season. Why shouldn't the parents and child feel fastratred is that not natural? Do we really feel that BV get it right all the time? Is it a perfect system? Do you not think politics plays a big part? I know it dose! I think some people need some commonsense clearly the results say something about selections.

Again in English?

^words to big for you^

Who gives a toss! Bloody Victoria, think your programs are the best. As soon as it's gets real (seniors) you get smashed!

The words were too small for me, the grammar too bad, and the spelling appalling.

Sooky parents...

I love the sooky parent's comment! Small minds simple comments.

"The words were too small for me, the grammar too bad, and the spelling appalling."

Whilst the vernacular may not have been perfect resorting to simplistic responses is hardly a great representation of ones grasp on the Queen’s English Troglodyte.

I didn't find it very difficult to understand the context and agree. Lots of great kids get overlooked. It’s simply not possible to pick them all.

If players get overlooked can they also be underlooked?

Not a parent, nor player but a coaches point of view.

Some players overlooked/underlooked by network coaches to push those who are favored, or have a personal relationship with or they have vested time into and will not be proved wrong.
But ain't that just the world we live in.

Who's to say that every player that is invited to NITP takes up the offer?

HO the system is set up to develop only those who are willing to sacrifice everything to play for their country and for that one special individual found every now and then who will be allowed to go through without being at risk of being asked to leave the program.

NPP is in place to weed out those kids who are not seen to be totally dedicated to the system and the KPI's set before them, so they are not going to end up making any screw-ups as you have put it. The system protects itself from this because they can always point a finger at some statistic or some lack of dedication to eleminate a kid and since they have enough of their COE kids anyway, the selectors decisions are always going to be vindicated by the system they have in place.

#529902

(Thats an interesting response. Can I ask the question more specifically?

Who did we lose?)

If the program is any good then kids that miss selection are at a distinct disadvantage. They miss out on years of what should be quality coaching and guidance.

The system is stacked, how could it not be? It's all subjective selection. We have all seen kids at tryouts head directly to a home club coach. When they were not originally selected in that group, accordingly groups are uneven. Why should this happen? Do they think they have an advantage? Last year’s selection is evidence of home club selection issues.

Then the issue is not corruption, it's human nature.

How many people get invited to NITP try outs?

I agree, there are many girls running around in VIC NITP at the moment that just should not be.

They seem to have been selected years ago and are somehow still in there.

There needs to be a structured way kids are cut from the program if they don't meet standards/requirements.

And new developing talent needs to be added.

It would be a far better program if it was smaller, kids had to earn their place, and places were constantly reviewed.

Just read original comment so am going back to that. Geelong U18 Boys have 3 State players NPP and I believe others in NITP and while they did make VC they are not top 10.

Not sure what this means or if it gives justification to original post.

How about young Joel Smith playing for the Geelong supercats his a GUN. Didn't make any NITP or Vic state teams. Yet was selected in the Australian side!

HO, it is just a sub-elite program.

Too many kids in it, standards (expectations) are too low.

Coaching lacks preparation & intensity. It is mediocre.

Clearly the system only works for some. Sure if your over 6 5" then the opportunity is going to present. However as stated above lots of kids get positions not deserved and others miss because they come from the wrong club or the home club has no coaches selecting.

Is program state funded?

Having coached in these programs and their predecessors, I think one of the most difficult things is that kids already in the program have such a huge advantage in the trial process. They're more familiar with standards and expectations and are more prepared to train, play and behave in the ways expected by selectors. It then becomes extremely difficult to say 'sorry, we're not picking you this year because even thought you're better than some kids who are making it, and you've done what we've asked of you, they show more potential.'

However, that's probably what needs to happen. A kid who gets close to the standard of NPP without the advantages of the program probably deserves a chance to enjoy those opportunities. It may accelerate their development, and creates greater competition/incentive for those within the program if they know that to retain their spots, they are expected to be head and shoulders about competitors.

I think the pathways themselves are outstanding, especially given the resource limitations. But there's an argument to be made that better allocation of those resources might produce better results.

Don't NITP OR NPP just train for 2 hours on Sunday. What is the big deal if you are in or out. Work hard that is the answer.

#529999

Interesting comment's it's great to get a real feel from someone who understands the inner workings of the program. Clearly some adjustment is needed. A new frame work perhaps.

#530023

My understanding is that we (Victoria) do not go so great in senior national championships I am however a little ignorant on the facts.

The references above indicate that the system is full of prejudices. I'm referencing the apparent testimony of the above coaches and other coaches with whom I have personally conversed with over time.

The better question is! Can we improve?

No system is beyond scrutiny; in fact best practice commercially is one of continuous improvement.

The question of funding is interesting, is the program tax payer funded? If so then favoritism is totally unacceptable.

It seems that invested individuals are continuously defending the program without question. Motivations are interesting.

If a kid is good enough and wants it bad enough, they'll make it, end of story, it might take them a little longer that's all.

^ Yes, thanks for that fantastic insight.

The question isn't whether Bogut and Mills are going to get there if they're not identified early enough. The question is whether we could get more kids there if our identification mechanisms were better.

If you're an elite basketballer, there's a good chance you could also be an elite netballer or footy player. If you receive more support and encouragement in those sports than you do on the basketball court, isn't there a good chance that you focus on those instead? Would our senior teams be stronger if we didn't rely exclusively on kids being good enough and wanting it bad enough?

This isn't about individuals, or it shouldn't be. It should be about whether the resources we have are invested to provide the greatest increase in the chances of developing elite talent.

Carrying through kids that have been in the program since the age of 14 is often a mistake. A kid who is 6'5" at 14 and 6'7" at 17 might deserve to be there, because he may have transitioned from the post to the perimeter. But he may not have. He may be slower than perimeter guys, or lack shooting range or ball-handling skills. Should we continue to invest resources in kids who haven't grown and developed rather than providing opportunities to different kids whose physical and mental abilities at an older age are better suited to elite basketball?

#530075 you obviously didn't like my very simple response, because it didn't support your over analysis of the situation. You're making out as though there's a plethora of amazingly talented basketballers being lost to the sport because of the powers that be, my contention is that there isn't. There may be a bunch of talented kids that didn't have the heart or the intelligence or the resilience/perseverance to become elite. You can change the system as much as you like, that part won't change.

We are ranked 4th in the world in basketball, surely that indicates that our systems aren't too bad? Am not suggesting they're withou their flaws, but predicting which kids are going to kick on and which aren't is hardly an exact science.

#530092

What are you on man!

It seems the very coaches who run the programs are advising that deserving kids miss out due to preconceived ideas.

If that only happens to one kid, that's one kid to many. Making statements to the effect of

"You're making out as though there's a there's a plethora of amazingly talented basketballers being lost to the sport because of the powers that be" is ridiculous.

Everyone single kid at tryouts should be treated equally it's as simple as that.

If the current system cannot provide an environment where each and every kid is treated equally then it is dysfunctional.

Yea nah. Delly, Bogut, Baynes, Bairstow, Ingles, Exum, Mills, am I forgetting anyone? I don't think you guys understand how hard it is to get guys to the NBA, let alone all the guys playing D1 college ball especially with the unathletic, small population in this country.

If you're bagging your development have you actually travelled the world? Spoken to programs overseas? Maybe you should to get an idea how much this country's development is respected.

Will it continue? Probably not. Australia is a speck of dust in the world, producing diamonds at the moment. Get a clue!

#530131
Self-interest is surly the answer to that.

World perspective.....

China population 1.3 Billion
Australia about 18 million

Do you genuinely think that this speck of dust with 7 players in the NBA and some 20-30 playing D1 College Hoops is genuinely letting talent sneak under the radar?

And that's just the men.

Where is this talent hiding because I'm sure those that run it in this country and overseas would love to know??

#530120, where is it that you think the opals come from, if not from Australia's pool of junior talent?

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the ranking is a reflection of Australia's development pathway. NITP has been around in various forms for the past 25 years. The current Opals and Boomers are products of it in one way or another.

Any Opals or Boomers that weren't in the program?

Self interest from parents whinging their child didn't make the program is what I see.

We have the best system in the world. It can not get better! We are awesome! and surely are above any sort of prejudice. I love us!

If a couple of kids miss it's just collateral damage. Who cares because were awesome! Oh did I mention that we are awesomely awesome. No need to fix anything!

HO, respectfully no one has determined what 'Making It' in basketball is, so to come up with names according to your request is always going to be subjected to prejudice views and bias opinions. Let's be more clear about what we are asking. If we are talking Football we can clearly state 'Making It' is AFL League Level and nothing below it like VFL or other State leagues, so are we just talking NBL here or playing for Australia or something more? It would help your arguement to have a clear agenda.

Prejudice its clear and it presents every year and in every trail. Some players are cut from the beginning because their parents are disliked.

Senior member of BV "I don't care how good their kid is, they’re not making it" that's a fact.

The “sooky” parent comment is ill-conceived and a cop out.

The system should be setup to eliminate prejudice full stop. It’s so easy to blame parents and children.

Do we really have to keep justifying the system at the expense of children who maybe fantastic future basketballs.

Within this forum we are discussing basketball but it happens in all sports and in fact in every aspect of society.

In the arts they even coined a term for it. Stage mum:

” A stage mom or stage dad is a parent or guardian of a child actor/performer who aggressively manages their career, often in what is considered a detrimental and over-bearing manner. The phrase has expanded to almost any performance related endeavor but is mostly linked to those doing traditional theater stage performances in front of an audience”

Whilst the simplistic will use the above to justify the (sooky) parents jibe. The more learned realise that the political conduct of some parents improves a child’s chances. Whilst for others it maybe sponsorship or other contribution’s that assist them.

The argument put forth regarding “how many have we missed” is exasperatingly ingenuous. A child who is never given a chance and deserved one may walk away feeling that they are not good enough! Never realising their potential, spare me the ridiculously inane comments about resilience and hard work.

We have a better term for it.....ADHD (absolute dickhead dad)
Has been known to hurt kid's selection chances

Actually Basketball is soft on who your families are etc, AFL selectors will try to interview in the home with the full family involved. They use the Term "Good Citizen" and all have a no dickhead policy, this includes Mum, Dad and Siblings.

"no dickhead policy"

Should be applied to this forum.

Just read through this! Amused is all i can add.

Just as I thought - absolutely no one can name someone who the program missed.
The ADHD at work.

HO I am not sure people as saying NITP/NPP is that bad what I read is people are asking where the system can be improved. Your question could be better served listing those who were identified but never made it. Could be an easier way to look at things.

446#

Spot on! The constant defensive nature from some on this forum is odd. clearly their they feel the need to protect what they have. Remember the prejudice is fruitfull for someone.

"Your question could be better served listing those who were identified but never made it."

That could be a lifetime study. Plenty of kids have made ITC-NITP over the years solely on the basis of their height. Didn't matter if they din't have the mental capability to breathe and run at the same time. "We can teach them that"
It's the nature of the beast unfortunately. Many couldn't be taught

Anon#459 appears again, slapping everyone who is taller than him, hey imbicile go back to that small rock you call home and crawl under it, then stay there. No one cares that you are too short to play basketball!

A comparison of the success rate of NITP/NPP players versus those who were never in the system (or identified extremely late) would probably be a better measure of how good the system is.

Also, NITP/NPP is an extremely broadly based program, and you would hope it could identify the overwhelming majority of kids who ultimately do make it to the NBL/WNBL level. But there are a good number of solid players at or above that level who were identified at the next level (junior camps, junior national teams etc.) embarrassingly late. Mills' AIS scholarship almost never happened, everyone knows the Bogut story, and there are enough examples on the women's side of players who've been identified at NITP level but produced careers that outshine players who received AIS scholarships or junior camp invites ahead of them.

The system is very good, but why you wouldn't look to improve it, I don't know.

Adelaide??