Anonymous
Years ago
Surely common sense will prevail here and he will be voted in?
Why on gods green earth would Perth Wildcats not want this?
Story here:
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/basketball/melbourne-businessman-in-7m-bid-to-take-over-nbl-as-league-struggles-for-new-direction/story-fnii09gt-1227343398952
Interesting that when Boti first released this article, it said that Perth are putting up the main resistance. Now that sentence has been removed from the article?
benno
Years ago
Please, he has what the NBL needs.. MONEY! Make this happen!
The pot shots at Perth are reserved for his blog. When it is something official for the Advertiser he does his best to keep his personal dislikes out of it.
But he originally put it in his article online, the Adelaide Advertiser?
May as well give the guy a crack at it I reckon. The guy must know a thing or two about business.
http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/basketball/melbourne-businessman-in-7m-bid-to-take-over-nbl-as-league-struggles-for-new-direction/story-fnii09gt-1227343398952.
About time. Despite Marvins resistance it may actually happen finally. Its been around fir more than 6 months that i know of and when last suggested here the notion was dismissed. The only way to make the nbl stable is to have a strong financial investor who loves the game rather than have self interested parties overseeing their own demise. The proposal is a win win for all.
Yep has to happen worry about the other stuff when the NBL is flying again
GWB
Years ago
It kind of amuses me that the league could be bought for 3 years at 7 million dollars. The NBL is about as lucrative as a 10th man on an NBA roster. Funny
But either way, the NBL needs a direction and perth can't afford to oppose. This is because, there will be no league for them to make a million dollar profit any other way.
I have exceeded my quota of articles but I am very keen to wake up tomorrow and check this out.
KET
Years ago
It kind of amuses me that the league could be bought for 3 years at 7 million dollars. The NBL is about as lucrative as a 10th man on an NBA roster.
I cant see any good reason why clubs wouldnt accept this, they should be begging him to do it given the current state of the league, and saying THANK YOU for even offering this.
What has anyone got to lose by accepting this???
Control of mostly non-profitable franchises??
Exactly. This should go ahead and he should be thanked
GWB
Years ago
There is literally no reason not to do this. If Perth is against it, then they should be outvoted. I dont see why they are more important than the entire league.
Flinders80
Years ago
What is the worse that could happen, seems like a try something new approach. Maybe it will get us back to the success of yesterday and maybe it will not. But it's worth a try
The proposal is believed to be a watered-down version of one he submitted in September last year which promised to write off club debts of up to $150,000, with $1.5m towards a national marketing campaign across all markets, $1.5m to underwrite new clubs, $1m in interest-free loans for distribution to struggling clubs and a goal of expanded television coverage and TV revenue sharing.
Acceptance of his new proposal appears a fait accompli with clubs such as Townsville and Wollongong coming out of voluntary administration and Adelaide in a holding pattern since the end of the 2014-15 season.
In Kestelman's original proposal, he promised expansion in the second year and best of all, if league revenue hadn’t increased to more than $10m per annum and it wasn’t profitable within three full seasons, he would hand control back to the clubs.
NBL chairman Graeme Wade was unavailable for comment but sources confirm the clubs have been asked to vote on the updated proposal which appears one of the league’s few options.
The vote is expected to conclude before next Friday’s release of the NBL free agents list.
proud
Years ago
If Perth are seriously knocking this back then could we see a counter offer from them where they offer more $?
Dr. Jack isn't short on money either, but would he want to do that?
Train
Years ago
What reasons could Perth have for not wanting this to happen ? Surely there is no disadvantages to them or any club if the NBL accepts the offer. I may be a Perth fan but seriously if the Cats are not backing this they should shut up and make a better offer.
I get the impression that Perth are rejecting this very generous offer because Bendat and Marvin are egomaniacs and don't like to think that someone could have more control than them.
I seems that they only care about their own club and couldn't give a stuff about the rest of the League. Pathetic really (And I am a Perth born Wildcats supporter)
At a guess, I would suggest the voting will go something like this:
Voting for Kestleman's proposal:
Townsville
Wollongong
Adelaide
Against the proposal:
Perth
I'm not sure about:
New Zealand
Cairns
Sydney
Is Melbourne allowed to vote?
swish
Years ago
One reason WIldcast might be against it is if the deal is the new league owner takes all profits until year 3 - so he can turn that money back into developing / promoting the league.
based on recent years that would cost Wildcats their million dollar profit each year.
Most of us don't know the details and certainly not the financial details. This offer might bee good for the clubs that are losing money, becasue this guy will put new money in and give them some stability etc but the clubs already making a profit might lose their profit.
Swish,
You may be right but the question needs to be asked, do we want the NBL to survive?
It's great that Perth, NZ and Cairns are making a profit but if the other 5 clubs go broke, there will be no NBL
Bear
Years ago
This will test a few out, it will expose some people as to their true character I predict! I have always thought that the real issue at NBL level has been leadership and cooperation, direction and stability.
Well, here is an opportunity to prove we have a leader in our midst...
Otherwise the NBL potentially risks going down in history as a league run by a bunch of self centred egomaniacs who just can't see the forrest for the trees!
Statman
Years ago
As I read it the deal is for a buy out of the league, not the individual clubs. This would mean that Perth still keep whatever profit they make as a club, the new owner would simply keep any money generated by the league itself. This profit being generated I guess by sponsorship, the sale of media rights and charges levied to the individual clubs to be a part of the league.
Unprofitable clubs are being offered financial support by way of debt write offs and zero interest loans with a vision to when the league itself is profitable this profit being distributed both to the owner and the clubs.
Similar I guess to the AFL, the league itself often helps out the struggling clubs financially while the big clubs like Collingwood are able to generate big profits for themselves.
Haz
Years ago
I think Swish might be on to something here, regards to profits.
Anyway, I could be way off, but its just a thought regarding Perth's apparent stance against it. The Wildcats might be looking at this from a similar point of view to that of the Perth Glory.
Before the A-League started and before Frank Lowy took control of Soccer Australia (changing it to FFA), the Glory were thriving. They were the only NSL club going great. This is kind of similar to how the Wildcats are seen in the NBL today - Going great in a busted up league.
If Kestleman takes control of the NBL, maybe the Wildcats see this as a threat to their success, and will then take a similar dive like the Glory have done - on an off the field.
Its most likely not the case, but thought I'd add that to the mix!
Dave
Years ago
Would it affect the Wildcat's profit?
I took it as any profits made by the LEAGUE would be his, not individual teams?
Bear
Years ago
Even if that is the case Haz, look at the A-League now and look at Perth Glory now. They are not a basket case at all and the A-League is looking at being one of our top codes in a decade, if they are not already close to this...
I can't see why any club would want to be the leading club in a crap league that just survives year to year, fix the NBL and the clubs will all benefit.
Matthew
Years ago
Im with Swish there, I dont see any reason Perth would be resisting unless the deal involves Kestleman taking all the profits from the teams and then redistributing it. If thats the case, then its no wonder that the Wildcats are refusing to sign up.
Hell no business would sign up to a deal like that.
If this isnt part of the deal, then yes Perth should definetly stop their resistance and sign up.
Ogre
Years ago
I guess it is also possible that Kestleman has different idea's for the future of the league than what Bendat/Marvin are thinking. There was mention of the Wildcats in coming years pushing more into the Asian market and having games against some of these Asian teams in some form of Champions League setup - it is possible Kestleman is wanting to pull the league in a different direction.
Read between the lines though.
Perth don't seem to get it. Sure they are making a healthy profit ATM but if the NBL continues to keep going the way it is, there will be no League to profit in.
No NBL = No Perth Wildcats
Haz
Years ago
Thats true Bear however I'm always wary of history finding a way of repeating itself though.
The A-League may be considered one of the big leagues now, and certainly gets plenty of love and admiration, but its definitely not a model I would want the NBL to follow.
The A-League's clubs are bleeding money and eventually it will catch up with them when people stop going to games and ratings drop. Without Lowy and their TV deal, their struggles would be more visible, like the NBL's is now.
BTW I would say the Glory are a basketcase. They are not highly regarded in Perth right now.
Bear
Years ago
Interestingly I look at it this way, the sports are both world games (soccer and basketball), they are huge in the juniors and becoming bigger every year while cricket, football, rugby and perhaps netball are traditional here but niche markets on a world stage.
So, if we are talking long term, decades from now, my money is on soccer and basketball. Get the model right and secure them financially here and you will see that they can't lose.
Times are changing, maybe slightly and not as noticeable right now because of all the media hype surrounding our traditional spots, but under the surface I see the future differently...
Mark Cubans worth $3 billion and is probably the most enthusiastic NBA owner but still wouldn't waste 7 mill on the NBL
Jack Toft
Years ago
I must admit I was pretty annoyed that Channel 7 used the word "ailing" NBL in their news bulletin last night. I cannot remember an NBL story with a positive spin out of the 7 news room for a long, long time. They seem to revile in negative basketball news stories, yet the overwhelming number of stories on the AFL (which they have the broadcast rights for) and positive news stories.
Do they ever say "The Oppressive, trade restrictive AFL"?
Whether the NBL is ailing or not, they must realise the power they have in forming impressions on the public, and on sponsors. Covert digs at the NBL via the use of negative commentary could be construed as being biased and unprofessional.
I look forward to seeing more NBL stories on C7 and those stories being as positive in nature as their stories on the AFL.
swish
Years ago
If its a simple mojority of club votes that get the deal done you would expect Harks and Crocs to vote yes. Melb would vote yes - it's their owners proposal.
So only 2 more required from Adelaide, Syndey, Cairns and Perth.
Reagrdless of what your business model is ( community or privately owned) an offer to wipe out existing debt and then interest free loans to fund development is a fantastic offer. What we can't see is the stings that are attached. They can only be about finacials, as already discusses above, but if Statman is right then there are no losers financially at least for 3 years.
The other string is attached to the furute direction of the league. Everyone has their own view and this is where the ego's could be seen.
I think a financially secure league ( even if only to give breathing space for 3 years) with any direct is much better than a league that has no direction and lurches from one team collapse to another.
If Larry K doesnt get the majority for this proposal, could he just start up another comp with the teams that do want to be in on it and just expand and add teams where appropriate,
would there be anything stopping say Melbourne, Adelaide, Townsville, Wollongong joining forces with Larry and then Larry could set up a new team in Perth, Sydney, Brisbane, Cairns, South Melbourne (where required) and probably wouldnt lose more than $7mil which he is offering to spend and do it his way anyway?
Then what would the other clubs like Perth then do?? I really dont see how Perth has so much power, they cant play in a comp by themselves and without the other teams they have no one to play against so they basically dont exist.
They wouldnt really even have a league to play in would they, the NBL doesnt seem in a position to put up the cash to launch/underwrite new teams if required, Larry K probably could.
Given many clubs would be close to worthless at the moment, due to not making profits, most not owning much in the way of assets, Larry could probably almost walk in ill buy the club for $1, pay off all debts and guarantee it will exist for the next few seasons, and most clubs would barely be in a position to say no, especially the Hawks, Crocs and others struggling to make it year to year financially.
I love how people are saying "the wildcats should shut up and sign it" and calling them egotistical.
They're without question the best managed club in the league, I'm sure their reasons behind not signing up are from a sound business perspective, hence why they're flying and making a million dollar profit.
Do you really think they care about a bunch of keyboard warriors who are calling them egotistical?
GWB
Years ago
We actually don't know that Perth is opposing this current - watered down deal. It appears as though they opposed the last one, but we don't know enough about the new deal to know if the things that troubled them last time have been amended or not. I really hope the league takes up this offer. It is the only sensible thing to do. Not taking this would be like drowning at sea and refusing a floatation device because you don't like the colours on it. The fact that this guy wants to invest in marketing is also a boon. When is the last time the NBL had anything resembling marketing? I must hazard a guess at atleast 15 years?
I read (possibly in one of Botis articles) that starting up an NBL club and running it for a year could cost around $8 million. Not sure how true that is but food for thought re: starting new clubs
New Clubs wouldnt lose $8 mil though, there would be some initial set up costs, but most of the money would be spent during season, when they are generating cash flow from ticket sales, sponsors, etc id imagine, even if they lost around $1 mil in the first season, they are not losing/costing the owner $8 mil.
$8 mil would be costs of wages, venue hire, marketing, etc not the total cost to the owner or upfront commitment, much of it would be from cash flow during the year, so not really out of the owners pocket.
Haz
Years ago
I vaguely remember hearing somewhere in the West that Bendat spent around $8 million in the first few years of owning the Wildcats, and much of that was getting them out of debt which he had inherited.
Could be wrong, it was years ago now.
Absolutely right about that $8 million (or however much It was) not being a loss, but more of will kestleman be willing to spend an extra few million to get new teams in where needed. Won't be any profit on that money straight away/ possibly ever
Roy Hobbs
Years ago
Would Kestlemans deal involve an all-encompassing Merchandise deal? The Wildcats have made a fortune with their own merch the last 3-4 years. Royalties for the League have been unpaid due to making their own gear, just ask Fiddes.
Great news. Love the perth people defending marvin and his overseeing of the near demise of the nbl and defending him because he makes money for the wildcats because he is such a great businessman when he uses a multi millionaires money to make him look good.
Karma is a bitch. He will hate being told what to do now.
Matthew
Years ago
Assuming it goes ahead Anonymous. Its still not a certainty.
It could also be the fact that the current rules may prevent an owner of a team , also owning the competition that team plays in.
I too would like to see some change, but Lets say all debts are paid off. So we have the current number of teams all starting from zilch.
They recruit players, which costs them money. They attracts sponsors, etc. I still dont see how this alleviates the core issue. Money. THere isnt enough Money in your Wollongong or Townsville or Adelaide to keep the teams going. THere just isnt. Whether its because there are now 2 teams in AFL Adelaide, a small population base in Townsville or other, they cant generate enough money with the locations they have to make their teams a viable business which is what they have to be to survive.
In 3 years time, we might see Kestleman say 'Well that wasnt so good, Im now 12 million in the hole.. what do I do now.. Keep going?'
And the issue is .. because its a Commercial endeavour to do this, we wont be able to see the fine print or read the contract because its commercially sensitive.
So be it.Get your finances in order. You are on notice now. The plan is good. Its this or no nbl next season.
Evwryone harps an about Marvin and Bendant. The dodo guys clearly are smart businessmen and passionate about basketball. They started as minor sponsors years ago with the Tigers and now are offering to save the nbl.
If these weak clubs cant get it right then again so be it. They all got too big and over spent for too long.
Very interesting reading, beware the anonymous poster!!
A. Bitoni Fan
Years ago
An excellent deal. Where do we sign? Hail hail Kestleman!
Zodiac
Years ago
How did the NBL know the Convention Centre was "unavailable" when there is no NBL schedule even out at this stage for any date clashes to be an issue?
How was it “unsuitable” when Queensland Firebirds play ANZ Championship games at the facility and the Brisbane Bullets previously played there for several years?
What was the alleged “expense” when there has been no negotiation re costs with the venue or its administration?
Was blaming the “lack of a suitable venue” an NBL strategy, considering its many public and repeated promises to the people of Brisbane they would have a team this season — even at the league's own cost? Or just a grave miscalculation based on misinformation?
These are the questions for which we’d all like answers.
Sadly, instead I received this email from the NBL chairman last Friday.
“Mr Nagy
“You called my phone twice this afternoon.
“If you have NBL questions please put them to me in writing and I can deal with them. My generously extensive and responsive phone briefings with you in the past have seemingly lost something in the translation and its (sic) best we don’t waste one another’s time despite mine doubtless being far less valuable than yours.
Graeme Wade
Chairman of the Board
National Basketball League”
I emailed the questions to him on Monday and to this point, there continues to be no response.
Good on Wade for putting Boti back in his place for continually and deliberately telling half a story.
Good idea if you read the article before gobbing off. The Brisbane ent made a mockery of all of the nbl bullshit lies for not having a nbl based in brisbane solely on suitable venue availability.
Wade yet another nbl incompetent nbl hiring has the audacity to chide Boti for trying to find out the truth. The sooner these nbl incompetent arelse clowns are no longer in charge the better.
""Sadly, instead I received this email from the NBL chairman last Friday.
"Mr Nagy
“You called my phone twice this afternoon.
“If you have NBL questions please put them to me in writing and I can deal with them. My generously extensive and responsive phone briefings with you in the past have seemingly lost something in the translation and its (sic) best we don't waste one another’s time despite mine doubtless being far less valuable than yours.
Graeme Wade
Chairman of the Board
National Basketball League"
I emailed the questions to him on Monday and to this point, there continues to be no response.""
Put it in writing. Ie I don't want to talk to you because your questions are too hard and my answers may be accountable.
The NBL would be justifiably pissed off about having their words cherry picked and taken out of context by a person under the guise of being a reporter but in reality having an agenda.
Whenever there's any discrepancy, the safest bet is always to have things in writing. It certainly rings true for me in the business world.
It slows things down but that's the price you need to pay once one or both parties have abused good faith.
" under the guise of being a reporter". What rock are you still living under? . Boti has been the respected and awarded basketball journo's around still. All of a sudden the nbl are even under seige more than ever and idiots suggests Boti's credentials. Go back under your rock.
It must be terrible for the idiots in charge of the once great nbl to gave to be accountable finally.
I guess you still use carrier pigeons and ink wells as well in your business. Maybe you have been dragged into the 20th century and use typewriters and carbon paper. I am surprised you know about a computer. Amazing.
Roy Ward is a journo. Boti is a blogger who seeks page hits above all else.
sorry, he isnt as well known because he doesnt make a habit of saying whatever people want to hear.
According to the below article, Kestleman's proposal is pretty much a done deal:
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/basketball/melbourne-united-boss-larry-kestelman-to-invest-millions-into-nbl-20150508-ggxlff.html
"There have been concerns raised some clubs may hold up the changes but Wade said all clubs had "universally co-operated" during negotiations."
So what's with all the talk about the Wildcats opposing the deal? Doesn't sound like it from the quote above.
Boti just talking out of his boti again?
POP
Years ago
Boti was a journo long before he became a 'blogger'. He still is.
I'm struggling to understand what is driving the near-constant stream of anti-Boti agro. If it's coming from a personal base, try looking at the issues instead of who's writing - focus on the message rather than the messenger.
As for the Wade email - if that is what he is putting in writing I'd suggest he stick to the phone - and quickly find someone who can give him good PR/communication advice.
For what it's worth ... the essential role of a journo is to distil and present the truth from the crap with which they are often presented. This means that those who 'have their own agendas' or simply want to confuse or keep people in the dark - think politicians, business leaders, chairmen of boards ... feel free to add to the list as you see fit - don't [and shouldn't] enjoy the professional attentions of good journalists.
As I said ... focus on the message, not the messenger, though sometimes the messenger is a good indication of the value of the message, and when it comes to basketball stories, I see Boti's by-line as a reason to sit up and take notice.
Really can't believe some of the utter tripe in this thread:
So many saying "this is great, it must happen," without having a clue what the actual proposal is.
SO many people who have bitched forever about Marvin being the interim chairman and his so-called "conflict of interest." You now have EXACTLY what you demanded, a completely independent chairman, and NOW you want to sell the whole league to the guy behind Melbourne!?!?
All season, half the threads on this board have criticised those running Melbourne. From their ridiculous re-branding, their crap recruitment, poor management, arrogance, the VJBA "sponsorship," etc, etc. NOW you think those clowns will be the saviour of the NBL?!?!
You want expansion??? You really think his first priority will be getting another team in Melbourne to compete with MU? FMD
The NBL doesn't need saving.
The struggling clubs need saving, so why doen't he put his money/mouth there???
And have any of you even bothered to LOOK at his so-called "proposal"???
Basically he is offering to buy out 51% of the NBL for $2M, which obviously goes to the existing owners.
Then, he is promising to inject a further $5M (not sure how, possibly a loan).
And for only $5M he claims he will achieve the following:
Bail out the two bust clubs.
Fund two new expansion teams.
Forgo any TV revenue so it can be passed straight to the clubs.
Fund a massive marketing campaign.
Pay for a shared marketing & membership department that would be free to the clubs.
IF ANYONE has any idea how to achieve even a fraction of that for $5M, please apply for the job of CEO because the NBL would love to hear your ideas.
The reason Bendat (or anyone else) hasn't put up a similar offer is because they would be laughed at.
Keep in mind that even Bendat's money, and Sengstock's expertise, were not enough to get the Bullets back up and running (at least not yet.)
Irrespective of what it might take to buy a controlling interest, to fund what Kestleman promises would take at least $20M over three years.
Also note that you can't fund operating costs with capital.
But even lets assume he can fund some of what he promises until he burns through the $5M. THEN what?
The NBL needs LONG-TERM viability, not a short-term injection of funds. Propping up ailing clubs for a couple of years is all well and good, but if they then fold when the money runs out then we're right back where we started.
Obviously I am a Cats fan, but 13,000 fans packed into the Arena to watch Wildcats-Red play Wildcats-Black, or worse the Bejing Pandas, doesn't float my boat. Nor does "making the finals for the 30th consecutive year" when there are only 4 teams in the league. I WANT to see the NBL thrive, and ideally expand. I would love to see the Bullets return, the Wellington Saints bid get up, and the Crocs & Hawks survive.
If Kestleman (or anybody else) wants to tip a $1M each into those clubs, and/or fund an expansion team, then I'm all for it.
BUT, risk the ENTIRE NBL on his "more holes than swiss cheese" proposal? No thanks.
Also, for those saying "aah the Wildcats will try to block it, they can fuck off to China." Consider this:
If there is even an ounce of legitimacy to his proposal, why would they try to block it? When he is offering them:
- A large slice of $2M cash.
- A guaranteed 10 team league. (The Cats may make profit, but they only make it if they have a league to play in.
- A share of TV revenue.
- No need for the Bendat family to fund Brisbane.
Plus if it all did go pear shaped, the Cats are best placed to ride out the storm.
So WHY would they try to block the proposal?
The ONLY reasons would be if they could see it was clearly not in the leagues best interests, and/or they could see it damaging the league's future so badly that even the Cats would struggle to survive.
Lets not forget that this is the 2nd proposal by the dodo guys after the first one was rejected.
We cant have the truth misrepresented by Boti again can we.
The NBL organisation itself is fine. The NBL competition itself is circling the drain
Wookiee
Years ago
How can anyone say that the NBL organisation itself is fine? They've at the very least misrepresented themselves with regards to getting a BrisVegas team up and running and I've seen absolutely no growth from them, they're a basket case organisation that all but leave the publicity and marketing and promotion of the league to the clubs... There's been no leadership, just empty promises, and if it wasn't for teams bringing in exciting players like Ennis, Childress, Jackson into the league, they'd have nothing to work with...
Truth be told, the Anon makes a good point that details need to be cleared up, but they're also making assumptions on the deal as well, because none of us actually KNOW the specifics of the deal unless it is made public...
This guy sounds like he's got some sort of plan which sounds a lot better than what the NBL has shown us they've got up their sleeves... One could forgive them for knocking him back last time it was offered, they'd only just taken over and couldn't be blamed for wanting to give it a go themselves, but I haven't seen anything recently that gives me any hope that the people in charge have any clue what they're doing...
Speed44
Years ago
Yep, I don't understand the "NBL organisation itself is fine" thing either. How, in any way, have they shown they are "fine"?
The organisation may as well have not existed the last few years, and the league probably would've run the same.
It's a joke, let's all be honest here. The media looks at it that way. The general public, if the majority of them even knew it existed, would look at it that way. Even a lot of basketball fans look at it that way.
I almost don't care what the details of this new deal are. What other option is there? Nahhhhh, you're right, let's just keep going the way the league, and it's "fine organisation" are heading.
I wrote that. I meant moneywise. They're a laughing stock but they won't go bankrupt any time soon.
Lets announce brisbane early. Lets apppint a gm and dack him because he couldn't get the brisbane venture financed. Lets appoint another muppet to be the nbl's yes man.
Lets reject a good offer to have someone takover the nbl. Lets then cancel the brisbane announcement after all the hype.
Lets the possibly accept an inferior offer after having knocked back a better one from the same people.
How do these guys succesful business in their own right?
What a joke the nbl management is now. The BA run nbl was flawed undoubtedly but makes these clowns look like amateurs.
You need to be a registered user to post from this location. Register here.
Advertise on Hoops to a very focused, local and sports-keen audience. Email for rates and options.
An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 3:13 am, Fri 22 Nov 2024 | Posts: 968,026 | Last 7 days: 754
