An answer may possibly be relegation, not necessarily promotion.

The problem is not that, its unsustainable performance in this instance.

A proper Promotion/Relegation system. Not the mickey mouse one they have now.Creates interest at both ends of the ladder.

Happy Days, promotion does not fix this in my view. The best team at the next level may not be able to step up.

This to me is about the single issue of long term non-performing teams.

522975 suggest Sherbrooke were put straight in Champ Women - is that right?

It looks to me like the voluntary (application based) promotion has worked really well in the Champ Women this year - SP seem competitive.

Great topic! Love seeing this sort of discussion

I agree that a strong promotion/relegation policy needs to be in place, don't think there is any other way to do it however, I think the promotion side of things needs to be application based.

That being said, the hardest part IMO will be getting teams to move up, I am under the impression that SP were the only team wanting to come up to SCW this year? So it is hard to relegate two teams when only one wants to come up.

The focus of a team that gets promoted is in year 1 to avoid relegation and then build from there.Let clubs find there own space.All AFL metro and country leagues are moving into that structure that havent already.It works very effectively and is clear cut.Clubs have far too much say in Big V and they need to move to an independant board.

How long have the AFL leagues been running P&R HD?

(i think you are solving a different problem BTW).

#523007

Thanks. If they put a team straight into Championship like that and it performed that poorly then that is a pretty big WOW moment for the league management.

#523016

You say it is their first year in YLW as well - 0-4 so far!

Promotion/Relegation varies depending on which league as there are so many in Melbourne metro.Lets face it, most teams know at the halfway mark whether they will make playoffs and the rest go through the motions.If you know you could possibly be relegated its a totally different ball game. I know of one team that got promoted to the top division and got to the last game needing to win to stay up. Ending up winning the game, biggest crowd for the season and partied like they won a grand final it meant that much to them.Two years later played in a Grand Final.

Sure, but getting a big crowd doesn't solve the problem.

The problem in the BigV SCW might be solved by relegation, in that it would leave the competition a little smaller and perhaps talent could be redistributed. Perhaps the problem is he league is too big. Perhaps the problem is the league has just made poor decisions in the past as it sought to grow this competition.

I doubt strict promotion would solve it, as the step up to Championship i think needs to be planned and managed over a few seasons, and therefore should be a negotiated thing - which it seems apparent SP have done.

But there are two parts to my questions. One is about how the league can help...

- should it announce now it is reducing SCW to 8 teams in 2016
- should it announce now that it is setting new criteria valid from 2017 forward about participation in SCW (things like standard of performance of junior teams, coaching affiliation expectations etc)
- should it have taken Sherbrooke aside at the end of 2014 and said you only have a place in 2015 if you can assure the league you are having two imports....

The other is about what the club can do...

- reset its own expectations?
- seek to drop down a level (or 2)
- make a commitment to new talent
- make a commitment to clean out old talent (I have no idea who plays for them)
- Bring in a well respected and capable Head Coach and give them a three year brief for women's basketball?

etc.

523034

Everyone just says promotion/relegation. Tell us how you think that would fix the problems - might be good for you to give us your thoughts on what the problems are in the first place.

#523041

Soon, promise. Got a day off as well so really shitty that I couldn't sleep!

I think there are many areas of improvement the Big V can embark on, and yes the system of team acceptance or competition itself is one of those.

Not so sure though that they are not already taking the steps necessary to make it a better competition. What do we actually want, do we want it to be more even or do we want the Big V to be more popular, have a better reputation or more prestige?

It can improve, no doubt, but how broken is it really?

Yes, that is a double negative, hope it doesn't throw anyone...

Well I wasn't sure if I should jump in and shouldn't say too much but as I'm on these boards every day or so and as my girls were mentioned I'll throw a few things to consider into the ring. As coach of the u18 1 Girls at Sherbrooke I can say the main reason for both u18 teams in Regional this season was basically the product of not picking teams until the 2nd grading stage then splitting the 2 teams evenly in talent and age (Please don't start guys I know I know, not my decision but not going to get into it here) Before the split they were on their way to VJBL 2 if not higher.
Now when it comes to the Youth league Girls, as a first year in I know it was the idea to begin to give girls a much needed pathway to keep them at the club, as most of you from smaller clubs will know this is the main problem being a feeder club. Having lost a few stronger girls to other clubs at the start of the year the hope will be to hang onto a few in the future. I think you will find the YL girls will improve quite a bit over the next couple of seasons.
This of course leads to the SCW who are as usual playing without imports and up against the wall nearly every week, but having been to all of the games this season I can say that the main problem would be Depth, once this is settled I suspect they will be much more competitive. Also to add is that new Coach Brian Vaughn has been very good from what I have seen, seems like he has quite a good basketball IQ and looks like a big step in the right direction for the program. This topic may well be an interesting one to look back on in a couple of seasons.
I realize I was slightly off topic here but to circle back around should we have a relegation system of some sort? Well that's not my place to answer but it may be something worth looking at in the future to make sure teams are always pushed to be as competitive as possible.

Baller6 glad you didn't say too much. I got bored and feel asleep half way thru your post.

Baller6 good insight into the club's thinking, but the problem is even if you did make met 2 or so, none of them are likely to be good enough to play State Champ Women. Sorry but that's just a reality. I know SCW is not the best standard in the country (and way from the worst either) but a bunch of young met players will never make you competitive at SCW level.. Good on you for having the dream but I wonder if dropping down might be a better pathway or unfortunately the club will have a life time of the results they have had in the last 4 years.

Yes all good points above, and I guess if you can at least aspire as a club to at least field senior teams with a few kids that are home grown shouldn't that be the goal (but there we go again getting into the paid talent vs home grown argument). And once again real question is how does BIGV decide who plays SCW/D1/D2 etc and should clubs get a say in the matter or should it be solved by relegation or some other form of selection?

Should Sherbrooke drop down to D1 and have 1 import for each of the mens and womens programs and focus on development?

What is the real problem here?

Can players improve playing in the League?
Lack of talent from the VJBL coming through?
Getting one or two imports? Or none?
Or trying to grow a club that the local community is committed too and juniors want to aspire too?

People like to have a look at the smaller clubs, but look at the stronger SCM's teams too. The Sherbrooke VJBL teams were listed. What about Corio and Ringwood. Where are their teams in VJBL world.

Can more money buy wins and premierships? What is the long term planning of BigV clubs and their VJBL junior teams. Are they really interested in developing their own talent?

If you have relegation in the BigV you are more than likely going to lose your better players who just want to play in SCM and SCW. Just like you have when better players leave smaller VJBL Clubs to play VC and bigger clubs.

Younger VJBL players need to see a pathway for them to be able to play senior ball at their club, so do the coaches!!

Talent needs to be nurtured.

#523102

Man did I sleep well.

Bear, here is how broken it is.

You have a team that has 14 wins in four seasons and might end up with 14 in five, or generously, 18 in five - all of this in the top league (it might be forgivable in D2). And this while they (the league) have grown the competition they play in?

And now it seems (as revealed here) that the team was never promoted, just 'placed' into this division - calling into question the leagues decision making and actions over a five year period.

And there seems to have been no intervention, positively or negatively.

I think the VJBL issue is, somewhat, irrelevant as you only need 3-4 players a year to keep your depth - would people agree?

Also the power VJBL clubs produce more good juniors than they have spots for in their Big V or SEABL teams. This excess does filter to other clubs. So you could, as a number of clubs have this year, pick up players who are looking to play seniors plus there are always people wanting to move.

Yes I agree with promotion and relegation but I'd also like to see only two levels. Championship and Divisional.

Put 16 teams (2 conferences) in Championship and 16 or more in conferences into Divisional. Have promotion & relegation each year, say 2 up 2 down, and then build your competition. New teams come into Divisional via MMBL or YL depending on how you do it but they must prove themselves.

Yes, there will be some blowouts but we should see players improving, juniors looking to join Champ teams and Champ Bench players moving down to play Divisional.

Just an idea.

Legislating player content won't work. It's like the NCAA saying you need a certain team grade point average. They teams have 8 players and 4 who never play to ensure they make the GPA.

Imports cost money and not every club can afford it. Some Div 2 teams have imports but it doesn't mean they'd compete in Champ?

Not sure short term fixes are necessarily the answer, there needs to be some longer term development.

So, much harder question, and perhaps the very brave Baller6 could answer... how many of Sherbrooke's current crop of SCW girls would meet a local content requirement of having played at least 2 seasons previously with the club?

HO that's not something I could answer accurately atm and at a guess I'd say maybe only a couple would fit that criteria. I do know that a few of the girls coach and are quite active in the club which is great. I guess the main thing is that they are now actively trying to prevent the loss of young talented girls to other clubs, which should over time help to make sure that there is a decent presence of home grown talent at the higher levels. Look like any club out there it has its share of problems but I can tell you that on the woman's side they are at least taking real steps to try and move the club in the right direction. In no way could I confirm but I would not be surprised to see an Import or 2 by next season for the senior girls as well.

Big V By-Laws
Appendix 9 Promotion and Relegation
Promotion and Relegation systems will be operated in all Big V Competitions (non-ABA Divisions) according to the following:

Promotion and Relegation

Where the league is played in more than one division the following promotion/relegation principles will be adopted:

• Teams should play in Divisions in which they are competitive both on and off court.

• Divisions are not governed by numbers - that is, there are no limits on the number of teams that should be in each division, rather, the size of each division is flexible to cope with those teams that have the capacity to compete in those Divisions.

• Where appropriate, the Executive will rule on a year to year basis the best means of operating the competition within a Division, including home and away games break-up, use of conferences and other variables.

Promotion of Teams

Promotion of teams will be on the basis of a formal application.

1. By the end of July each year the General Manager of the league will call for expressions of interest from those teams interested in competing in a higher division in the following season.

2. Clubs wishing to compete will then submit an expression of interest by the date set by the General Manager..

3. An executive sub-committee of three (including the General Manager) will review each applicant and seek input and provide feedback on the following areas:
– playing strength, current and proposed
– Game promotion
– Administration (club to office)
– Ability to meet financial commitments

4. After interview, each applicant will then be required to submit a proposal for promotion, based on feedback received.
5. The executive sub-committee will review each proposal and make a recommendation to the General Manager of the Big V.

6. The Executive Committee will be empowered to decide on which teams will be accepted for promotion – these will be informed prior to the annual general meeting of the league and an announcement of same made at the AGM.


Relegation

Relegation will be on the basis of formal application or on the recommendation of the Executive.

1. A team may apply for relegation based on its own assumptions about future playing strength, financial capacity or other reasons.

2. The Executive may decide to relegate a team based on failure to meet the league guidelines as set out in section 1.2 of these by-laws,

3. In all cases, an executive sub-committee of three (including the General Manager) will review all teams performance and, in consultation with the teams, make recommendations to the Executive Committee on teams that should be relegated.

4. The Executive Committee will be empowered to decide on which teams will be relegated – these will be informed prior to the annual general meeting of the league and an announcement of same made at the AGM.

HO, at high risk of inducing further sleep issues I have posted the Big V By-Laws above^.

Your point about a team that is likely not in the correct Division is clear, however the league appears to have enough ammunition to fix this issue if it desires.

Perhaps they just need to toughen up and make some decisions according to their own rules and not be persuaded by an Association's smoke and mirrors when they make their application to enter Champs?

Regardless of the fact that mistakes are made, it seems less likely that the system is broken, it could be that the more likely scenario is that the Big V is not applying its own rules accordingly.

Anon^ you are correct in everything you say. I won't disagree with you, however this post is asking questions about the Big V competition and why teams that have a losing record are still in the highest Division.

What I am saying (repeating if you like) is that although the By-Laws may be interpreted any way you like, they do exist and they do explain the system and process that results in the situation commented upon.

Rightly or wrongly, if the By-Laws are ineffective you are welcome to post what you believe they should read, so the problem of losing records by teams not good enough to play in Champs is avoided...

I, for one, don't see what the fuss is about! If the Big V wants a more even competition they just have to do what HO suggests, shrink the amount of teams to about 8 and introduce strict guidelines with a performance based promotion and relegation system. Problem is that someone has to lose, you are not going to prevent that, no matter what you do...

#523368

I suppose that depends on your point of view. Those by-laws give the club and executive room to move - that is not always a bad thing.

Promotion and relegation in the BigV is a really questionable concept, as I have indicated here, relegation is more useful than promotion.

P&R is only an issue if you are locked into numbers in competitions (SCM MUST have ## teams for example) and for the BigV to be locked into numbers would be stupid.

The problem with these by-laws is not how they are written, it seems to be the governance and application of them. In the Sherbrooke case its seems like they have not been applied at all. There is not way after four years of those results you could make a judgement that a team deserved a fifth season.

Hence one of my questions - what else is at play here - why are the BigV so locked into keeping Sherbrooke in SCW?

BTW, one of the success stories of SCW early in the season appears to be Southern Pen (article on other thread). They did not contest the D1 Grand final last year so in promoting them, which would not have happened under strict P&R, the league and club appear to have made a very GOOD decision.

Previously to the scw coach there was 1 jnr girl's team so it started from scratch. ..
Imports club wouldnt hear of it!!!

Previously to the scw coach there was 1 jnr girl's team so it started from scratch. ..
Imports club wouldnt hear of it!!!

The previous SCW coach rated himself so highly, never had success at any level with anything he has coached, that after the last game of the previous season he told the players there would be no women's program at Sherbrooke because he was leaving.

Suffice to say the previous SCW coach probably set the program back a few years as his views on playing/developing juniors was non-existent at best.

Yelling and screaming at players on the training court probably doesn't inspire players to want to stay on, let alone give any juniors the view that this is a good path to follow.

I would have thought that possibly dropping to Div 1 would have been the best option, not sure if this was even discussed at Club or BIG V Board level.

Note that the promotion and relegation by-laws posted above are not as per the current by-laws that have recently been updated and approved by Clubs at the SGM in early March. The current by-laws re-introduced hard promotion/relegation as the Clubs had previously approved, but had not be documented, as well as other means.

1.3.2 Promotion and relegation
Promotion and relegation systems will be operated in all Big V competitions, except State Championship, according to the following:
(a) Promotion of Teams
Promotion of teams will be on the basis of a team winning the grand final of their division or formal application.
The process for formal application is:
1. By the end of August each year the CEO will call for expressions of interest from those Associations interested in having any of their teams competing in a higher division in the following season;
2. Associations wishing to compete will submit an expression of
interest by the date set by the CEO;
3. A Board sub-committee of three (including the CEO) will review each applicant, seek input and provide feedback on the following areas:
i. Playing strength, current and proposed;
ii. Game promotion;
iii. Administration (Association to office);
iv. Ability to meet financial commitments.
4. After interview, each applicant will then be required to submit a proposal for promotion, based on feedback received;
5. The Board sub-committee will review each proposal and make a recommendation to the Board;
6. The Board is empowered to decide on which teams will be accepted for promotion. These will be informed prior to the AGM of the League and an announcement of same made at the AGM.
(b) Relegation of Teams
Relegation will be on the basis of a team finishing on the bottom of their division ladder, formal application or on the recommendation of the
Board.
The process for formal application is:
1. An Association may apply for relegation of any of its teams based on its own assumptions about future playing strength, financial capacity or other reasons;
2. The Board may decide to relegate a team based on failure to meet the League guidelines as set out in 2.3.1 of these By-laws;
3. In all cases, a Board sub-committee of three (including the CEO) will review all team's performance, and in consultation with the
teams, make recommendations to the Board on teams that should be relegated;
4. The Board is empowered to decide on which teams will be relegated, teams will be informed prior to the AGM of the League and with a formal announcement made at the same AGM.
(c) Considerations in divisional restructures
In cases where circumstances are such that the Board determines that a restructure of divisions shall occur between seasons, the relative position
of teams that would otherwise have been promoted or relegated as a result of their on court performance shall be taken into account.

Thanks Anon,

Obviously none of us had seen this so its useful.

But of course State Championship is excepted!

Youth League Champ is different. Teams can ask to go down from VYC (struggling with numbers or quality) and clubs request for their teams to go up into VYC if they believe they will have a good group for a number of years.
The youth league is juniors so the group of players is changing regularly from season to season. Small changes or sometimes large changes.

Thanks anon for the update, I certainly was not aware of it. I wonder if it is an improvement though, seems like it covers more angles but the omission from SC is IMHO potentially a mistake.

Unless of course there is a whole section dedicated to SCM and SCW we are all unaware of...?

I have another important question.

If Frankston youth teams continue to forfeit every game, while winning most games, will they be demoted?

sorry, i was being a but facetious.

They should be demoted, simple

The Big V Board need to give the clowns that run Frankston a date to pay the fine, or remove the teams from the comp.