its just glorified domestic.

C'mon HO you love Big V :)

Discussing the Big V is too much I think, it is a big ask to focus on such a large competition with so many divisions. Maybe better to start threads on Big V Champs or D1, Youth League, men/women etc...

Just a thought!

Just wanted to get in first HD...

I would also be interested to know details of this alleged heavy recruitment.

6 athletes promoted from 18/20s to VBL Yth in Women's program under new Coach, and 1 import.

So no heavy recruiting but I'd be interested to hear you back up your statement.

Dorito is a Knox junior I have watched her play from u/8's.

Interesting how no one is on Casey to take it out, considering they had a full revamp.

Am Sticking to Peninsula to win it, Either Southern or Chelsea.

I just don't know if Casey will be a team, but hey who knows who will be a team? But hey!!! The Champs are still in the Division so Latrobe is definitely top 2.

Should Big V got to Promotion/Relegation system 1 up 1 down or 2 up 2 down.Let clubs find there level.Seems like clubs get to pick and choose where they want to play.

Think Geelong will be fine. They always put out a quality outfit.

I understand Latrobe may not have changed much, so I think they'll also be there at the pointy end.

Sedale Jnr ? That's a huge signing if true !!
Question though, does anyone who plays for Casey actually from Casey ??

Mildura will again bring out to gun imports and be competitive and Bobby will put another good team on the floor out west.

The Southern Pen "one hit wonders" have only gotten better from my understanding, and will also be there at the end.

How about the other new promotions Shep & Keilor ?
Haven't heard much from out that way...

And yes HD, have always been a big believer in proving yourself instead of choosing when you should go up.

511908 and 511860 both have Waverley to play off for VYCM.

Interesting, because their published roster is VERY different to the roster that won it last year.

If I recall correctly, nobody that featured on the court during the final is in this years squad?

Expect SP to be stronger in year 2 by maintaining there core group and the import returns with a better understanding of the league. Teams with multiple changes take time to gell so i expect them to come out of the gates hard.

Looks like the tail is wagging the dog....WOOF WOOF!!!

Billy Hoyle, rumour is Shepparton will be deep and the coach will have a tough time rotating the players.. That's the word from people here anyway. But realistically I think the Gators will have a decent side, win the games they need to win and finish just below the middle of the table if the roster stays healthy. Our import has returned as well so there shouldn't be too much of a bedding period with him and hopefully he has toughened up and matured like most guys do back home after their first campaign.

#511958

huh? what in this conversation leads you to that conclusion. It is exactly the same style of conversation you would expect about SEABL or other state league programs. And I got to declare "domestic" here first, stop muscling in on my theme.

It's not even domestic, lunchtime in the school yard I reckon.

Actually know it all's the clubs decided when the season would start due to it conflicting when players would have to go back to college.

#511975

So the criteria for a competition being elite is that it has promotion / relegation?

The league has a promotion / relegation system AFAIK.

No, as i said, AFAIK. I thought the league agreed a promotion / relegation system a number of years back.

OK. Happy to stand - as I said, I was not certain.

It doesn't change the point however. Having a "set" promotion / relegation system does not make you "elite" or "serious". As much as people might like it.

2008 Big V By-Laws, not sure if they have changed:

Appendix 9 Promotion and Relegation

Promotion and Relegation systems will be operated in all Big V Competitions (non-ABA Divisions) according to the following:
Promotion and Relegation

Where the league is played in more than one division the following promotion/relegation principles will be adopted:
• Teams should play in Divisions in which they are competitive both on and off court.
• Divisions are not governed by numbers - that is, there are no limits on the number of teams that should be in each division, rather, the size of each division is flexible to cope with those teams that have the capacity to compete in those Divisions.
• Where appropriate, the Executive will rule on a year to year basis the best means of operating the competition within a Division, including home and away games break-up, use of conferences and other variables.

Promotion of Teams
Promotion of teams will be on the basis of a formal application.
1. By the end of July each year the General Manager of the league will call for expressions of interest from those teams interested in competing in a higher division in the following season.
2. Clubs wishing to compete will then submit an expression of interest by the date set by the General Manager..
3. An executive sub-committee of three (including the General Manager) will review each applicant and seek input and provide feedback on the following areas:
– playing strength, current and proposed
– Game promotion
– Administration (club to office)
– Ability to meet financial commitments
4. After interview, each applicant will then be required to submit a proposal for promotion, based on feedback received.
5. The executive sub-committee will review each proposal and make a recommendation to the General Manager of the Big V.
6. The Executive Committee will be empowered to decide on which teams will be accepted for promotion – these will be informed prior to the annual general meeting of the league and an announcement of same made at the AGM.


Relegation

Relegation will be on the basis of formal application or on the recommendation of the Executive.
1. A team may apply for relegation based on its own assumptions about future playing strength, financial capacity or other reasons.
2. The Executive may decide to relegate a team based on failure to meet the league guidelines as set out in section 1.2 of these by-laws,
3. In all cases, an executive sub-committee of three (including the General Manager) will review all teams performance and, in consultation with the teams, make recommendations to the Executive Committee on teams that should be relegated.
4. The Executive Committee will be empowered to decide on which teams will be relegated – these will be informed prior to the annual general meeting of the league and an announcement of same made at the AGM.

Nope, just had a glance at the revised 2014 By-Laws and look the same.

Got a question though, with all the criticism of the Big V, can anyone give me a comparative league that is better than the Big V in this country, happy to be shown which state league is better than Victoria's...?

That By-Law isn't worth the piece of paper its written on.

Okay anon, here is your chance then, let us know why and how QABL is better, please?

The great thing about promotion/relegation is there is interest all season in both ends of the ladder.Nobody wants to be relegated so the last few rounds can be a fight for survival.Let clubs find there own level and earn there position.

Calvin Henry has resigned and women have signed new import Ivy Abiona.Deal for Mens 2nd import fell through so back to the drawing board as the Coyote would say....

From everything I have seen Bear, QBL is certainly a better standard competition (by a reasonable margin), and probably better administered.

Hard to gauge with QBL as there are some really good teams and very average ones as well.Best comparison would be Rocky, Mackay, Cairns with Ringwood, Corio Bay, Waverley.

I know little about other leagues, not in Vic, so thanks guys...

Is there a competition where they all play against one another, or is this potentially BA's master plan down the track now they have control of SEABL perhaps?

Thought I might do some surface research on the web in relation to the comparison between the QBL and the Big V.

Interestingly the QBL appears to be strong (13 teams including major cities and towns) while its secondary leagues SBL & SBL D2 men are obviously lower divisions (8 teams and 9 teams in more regional and smaller centres). The women's competition appears just as strong with 13 similar teams in the QBL but they combine 15 teams in the SBL.

Comparing this with the Big V in its structure at least, the Big V last season had 13 teams in SCM, 7 D1M, 11 in D2M, 10 in SCW, 11 n D1W and 10 in D2W.

I have not found a comparison for the Youth League, maybe QBL don't have something similar??

On the face of it the leagues are measurable in the amount of teams, although different in structure, however the QBL has teams in Brisbane, Gold Coast and locations where in Vic they would be in SEABL, so maybe in Vic the Big V is slightly lower in standard due to the volume of teams capable of playing a higher level that QBL!??

Thanks Anon^, do you think it would be nice to see the state champions of each Division (Championship and D1) enter a National tournament at the end of the season, so we could see them all play off for an Australian title?

I would love to see how the Big V teams would go in such an event, I'm sure other state teams would also love to know they won a National title at this level...

The old Nat champs was always top QBL or SEABL teams fighting it out

Dandenong played off twice for Nat champs while in the Big V

I am unconvinced that hard promotion/relegation is as good as everyone thinks it is.

Often at this level the bottom team is known long before the season ends, the hopes of a tightly fought out "bottom of the ladder" retaining interest just doesn't meet the reality.

And the factors are more inconsistent with basketball, the fact is that at D2 one single player has been shown to make a team competitive. Likewise losing one player can damn you.

Its not like football where the structure of your club long term plays a much bigger part.

I happen to think the by-law above is ok, if its well administered. I don't know how thorough the league is (i suspect its not) but if the league does a good job then its manageable.

If Casey have stocked up as everyone here seems to be saying, then hard promotion and relegation should be dispensed with and they should maybe be put straight to championship. Having said that, the league should rule against this sort of stocking up in the first place - it needs to reward talent development, not recruiting.

I'd be very interested to know if people actually think the league has recently made any real howlers in terms of promoting teams they shouldn't have, or not promoting teams that deserved to go up.

Anon^ I don't get your point? Why should this be the case for a team obviously good enough to win SCM?

Also, why should CB be made to go through lower Divisions with a team as good as it has when they have complied with all the By-laws and obviously their submission for SCM was endorsed?

In the end the decision to play them in SCM was validated, so you may just have to explain your opinion a little better or we are left to presume you may just have an axe to grind!

HO, I tend to agree, it is what it is and if it works, then the By-Laws are okay. If there is a glaring issue, I guess a submission to change them can always be made...

I notice Darren Best got cut from BBL....couldn't have seen that one coming!

Best got cut but them got picked up by a team in a lower division.

D1 Side of things, Southern Pen in the men and Geelong in the women's.

Ashke, where have you been?

Happy Days, just taking a break my friend but i am back in action now mate.

Champ Men- Ringwood to win. Eltham to be big improver and make finals.

Champ Women- I think it will be wide open, leaning towards Hume City though

D1M- Latrobe would have to be favourites. Geelong, Warnambool and Sothern Pen the big challengers. Smokey on Blackburn

D1W- Camberwell to win with a new look squad. Geelong and Latrobe to be there or there abouts.

D2M- Keysborough, Oakleigh to be alright

D2W- Chelsea, but I don't know that much about the competition.

VYCM- Nunawading/Knox

VYCW- Knox/Sandringham

Y1M- Geelong, Werribee, Bendigo

Y1W- Coburg

Y2M- No idea

Y2W- Camberwell

SCM - Ringwood/Waverley
SCW - Ringwood/Hume
D1M - SP/Sunbury
D1M - Whittlesea/Camberwell
D2M - Keysborough/WP
D2W - Coburg/Chelsea
VYCM - ??
VYCW - ??
YL1M - Werribee/Geelong(? They in this dig now)
YL1W - Coburg/warrandyte
YL2M - Coburg/Chelsea
YL2w - Camberwell/SP

Bear, at the time CB were admitted there was a heap of discussion about this.

My issue at the time was that the local content was basically one or two players - and this was substantiated throughout the season with only Osborn playing meaningful minutes. It goes to my point above about Casey, that really CB built a team to enter championship.

If the league had thoroughly reviewed CB's application, they would have had a fair indication that the team would be competitive only if they added a bunch of talent to a very thin local roster. it was thought at the time that if CB had been put in D2, a number of those players would not have played with CB. The CBL as the development ground argument is rubbish.

There is a vast difference to adding two players to a developing player list, and creating a list with only one or two developing players in order to be at a level.

No question, the league got the grading correct - they put that CB side in the right league.

But, does the end justify the means. Even today, entering their (fourth?) season, it will be interesting to see how many of their own developed players are logging serious minutes in the side.

This isn't pro ball, the emphasis (not complete emphasis but emphasis nonetheless) should be on player development, and the league should reward clubs that develop their own talent, rather than those who recruit from others.

If Casey are doing what they appear to be doing, it is a shame.

The CB champ men will hold their own again this year. Solid coaching staff, Hicks and Reardon are a handful for most teams, and they have had a fairly good run with imports.

The Youth league womens team are hungry to get back out there after losing to warrandyte, as long as they dont let Sam loughhead shoot so damn much. she is a ball stopper if i ever saw one.

The youth league Men should improve now that Mckee has gone back to being an assistant, great skills guy, terrible tactician. however the new coach is going to have a hard time earning the respect of his players at such a young age.

on a side note, I can handle teams "buying" talent at State champ level, or recruiting from outside the club. however at a youth league level its poor form by a club.

I know for a fact that there are locallly developed players in the CB YLM team that have been pushed out by the Coach bringing players/friends over from melbourne to play.

gahh annoying!

HO and Lo57 have nailed it. For the life of me I could never understand the likes of CB entering SCM when they have no real junior rep ball club to back it up. The same can be said for many clubs who overlook junior after junior to get a competitive team. The same can be said, perhaps to a lesser extent to Ringwood, Sherbrooke, McKinnon and Whittlesea.

I find it even more prolific in YL where local kids are excluded over people recruited in. Sometimes its not about winning, its about developing.

I know some people will shoot me down and thats fine, but like some posts earlier about Nunawading, playing a season of juniors does not make you a Nunawading junior in the real sense of the term. Good luck to Melbourne's Wynym and Brewster coming into Nunawading, but what real juniors were overlooked to bring them in.

Youth League should follow VJBL's footsteps with clearances and allowing no more than 2 players per team (Not entirely sure on the actual rule) it wont stop this overlooking of home grown juniors but it may stop the people who are doing it because they can

But lo 57, why should a club be buying a team to be competitive at Champ level? I think its stupid.

Its even a little silly at SEABL level.

What does winning that championship actually achieve?
Does it make you a better association?
Does it attract more juniors?
Does it attract more domestic players?
Does it generate more media coverage?

I reckon its largely done to satisfy ego.

If it was a true state championship, that if, it is was a contest of the best 10-12 association teams in Victoria, it would make a little more sense.

HO,

yes its stupid, but i can see some (not alot) avenues of justification for it.

Winning a championship helps you market your association to potential players,coaches etc..... at all age levels.

the negative side to that is though potential customers/members may a) push other members out or b) become disgruntled when they dont get the chance to be apart of it.

im sure there are other reasons aswell, and i may not be right, but im only trying to look at it logically with common sense

Anon, when you work out how your question correlates to what we are all talking about let us know will you?

In D1W Mildura and Geelong will be hard to go past. Geelong lost a lot of experience but have recruited extremely well in the off season. A rookie coach may be their biggest weakness, having said that, I believe with her playing experience and the professional program that Geelong runs, she will do a fantastic job.

Mildura have a new import to accompany what they already had. Losing Jasmine Simmons to the CoE will definitely hurt, however, Import (which is always an MVP candidate at Mildura) Power, Delcastegne and the supporting cast will lead the team to the finals again.

It will be interesting to see how Camberwell go with such heavy recruiting and a new coach. The pieces they have been recruited are absolutely legit! The true test will be seeing how they all come together during the season, if they click, they'll be hard to beat. It seems as though they may have the biggest budget in the league and hopefully results will follow.

Latrobe will be a massive drop off. With Dickson moving to SCW at Sth Pen and apparently no import, they will struggle. They still have a fantastic group of young players and IMO have one of the best regions for junior hoops in the state. I know this isn't junior basketball but the best junior hoopers in the state are definitely up to quality minutes in D1W. Look for D'Angelo to have a breakout season with more game time.

Whittlesea have supposedly had a clean out and brought in an import that appears to have had a fantastic career at NCAA powerhouse Baylor. They have kept last years crucial pieces and added some great players, my tip is they'll make the 4.

Sunbury have lost 1 of the O'Nial sisters and I believe Vogelzang aswell. If they actually field a team they will struggle to win a game.

Werribee have lost some experience so ive heard, as well as their best young player, however, their junior program is going very well and I expect with Lloyd involved again they will have some great success and IMO will just miss out on finals.

Western Port will win a few games but will not be successful by any strech of the imagination, the only thing that may stop them from finishing last is sunbury being worse. They had a good group of players that they have retained from the D2 championship, mind you, it hears as though they have only added players who would struggle to get a game at most other D1 clubs whilst they needed to add legit D1 level players.

Cragieburn will be another cellar dweller after losing Cann, McLean and the coach. They had some good size last year but the club was driven by a good coach and great players in Cann and McLean.

Hawthorn and Keilor had some great upset wins last year and if they can do the same this year, they may change the balance of the whole competition. I don't think either team has the talent or coaching to make finals, but having said that, every year has a surprise and 1 of these teams may supply it.

YL2M-Casey looking real solid. Will go the distance this season.

HO, I recall the posts that both criticised and commended CB when they entered SCM. On the surface you would be correct in presuming that local content was very low and during the season, yes the imports and former SEABL players had the bulk of the court time.

What is local content though?

This is a hard one to quantify, especially when kids in Geelong itself play at both Geelong and Corio Bay, have done so since under 10's and more than two or three in the original SCM CB team are in that group.

My point here is, where is it written that we may actually determine what qualifies as local content? Find this, or agree on what it should be and then we can make an intelligent assessment, otherwise it is speculation and opinion...

Further

Winning a State Championship in basketball is no different to winning one in cricket, football or other sports. Your club, or in this case Association, benefits from all the points made. It builds club culture, club history, makes juniors walk taller, makes everyone happy and keen to be involved.

Egos aside, and we know without ego you just fall by the way side, all your points HO are valid suggestions why winning SCM is a good thing. Maybe you don't get a big financial kick, but if it was not worth winning, why bother with sport as a contest at all?

If your point is specifically that SCM isn't worth winning, compared with other basketball leagues, then I feel you are off the mark here, IMHO...

Dandenong Rangers program does that, their bigv sides are full of dandenong juniors, the SEABL groups are predominantly former junior rangers. It's when it comes to wnbl, but even then compared to all the other wnbl teams they would still a e the most players who have been former dandenong juniors

You have missed the issue Bear.

My point was about BUYING a TEAM to be competitive at championship. Winning that championship is fine, but a team buying in up to six or seven players to do that - that is just out of whack for the level of competition that championship is.

And the whole team list was debated at the time for CB. Given how immature (and I don't mean that rudely, I mean it literally) CB's junior program was at the time it was pretty well shown that basically only one player had genuinely come through the CB development program.

Corio Bay recruited a very good team to player Championship and a year or so later won it. Good on em. They chose to do it.

But as some others have pointed out, they are still recruiting to fill the same team, because they never had the development infrastructure and quality of program to bring kids to that level.

Corio Bay Youth League Mens Side

Aiden Kennedy (Melbourne area)

Brad Armstrong (Bellarine Junior Rep Player)

Brandon Maplesdon (Melbourne Area)

Callum Walsh (shepparton Junior)

Chris Eichler (Local/Homegrown)

Drew Killender-Straughn (Melbourne Area)

Jaiden Carter (Bellarine Junior Rep Player)

Jake Barton (Bellarine Junior Rep Player)

James Headlam (Geelong Junior Rep Player)

Joseph Frese (Local/Homegrown)

Lachlan Edwards (Geelong area)

Leondis Spielsburg (Melbourne area)

Marcus Bertino (Melbourne Area)

Patrick Magee (Melbourne Area)

Tom Gall (Warrnambool Junior Rep player)

Zac Birrell (Local/Homegrown)



Jack Benjamin (Development Player) (Local)

Tyson Brasier (Development Player) (Local)

Curtis Watson (Development Player) (Local)


6/19 players in a youth league squad never pulled on a CB jersey as a junior. The Kids in under 18s and under 20s must be thinking they wont get a look in at their local association.

CB will Struggle immensely in a few years at SCM and YLM level

No, actually HO I didn't miss your point about buying a team at all, just avoided commenting on it because I don't think CB invented that process...

As for the CB program, it still has a fair way to go in building the junior domestic and representative skill level, it has come a long way in the last 10 years but still has work to do. It has come from a very low base and many changes.

Whether buying a SCM Championship is going to hurt them or not in the long run remains to be seen. Also, whether their current pathways are as successful as they hope they are will be tested in time.

They have obviously begun to spend money to entice some talent, also upgrading the stadium has been a big improvement and money spent on officials, infrastructure, management and coaching has shown positive results in many ways, not all of these results are commonly known or as overtly evident.

lo 57, thanks for listing the YL2 CB squad. You realise Bellarine has no youth league and players who wish to play this level and not travel an hour and a half to Melbourne choose to try out with CB?

Living on the Bellarine Peninsula may not qualify as local content in some books, but I consider those 3 also to be local content.

Your comment about the under 18 or 20 kids does not bare any analysis of the age or potential for the YL team, nor does it indicate how many current u18 or u20 kids are even capable of YL. Your opinion is just that, fair enough to have one, but it could be viewed very differently I feel...

Opportunity will be created and that is what the Association is attempting I believe.

Mornington V Casey tonight 7.30pm @ Mornington Should be interesting....

Watched first half Mton v Casey, Cavs doing it comfortably.Lester carrying about an extra 10-15kg.Hasnt played for 18 mths so will be better once he gets in game shape.Can still dunk just.Hobba was the standout, will do some damage in D1.Mton middle of the road in D2.Starting to play kids which is a good sign but would be surprised if they make playoffs.

#512635

This was not about Geelong vs Corio Bay - why make it that? My comments were oriented towards what CB and how Casey seem to be copying it.

And why do you view Geelong as a competitor? Do you view Bellarine the same way?

Blackburn YL by 2 over McKinnon. Shot well and well organised.

#512661

It was an Anon who made that comment, I don't think any of the regular posters here have repeated it.

I think CB's mistake is that they are at the wrong level to bring talent through to.

Their youth men play at YL2, and last year they finished 4-14 and second last. What is the chance of solid talent consistently coming from that group into a Championship side? A lot of YLCM players don't go on to Championship.

My major criticism when they joined BigV was that the league just went for instant gratification - they needed another team at that level and went for it, obviously because CB "named" a team capable of playing at that level.

For the foreseeable future, unless Geelong implodes, it would appear that they will continue to have to recruit players to be competitive at Championship level. And often, unfortunately, "recruiting" does means paying.

The league could have done the right thing at the time and said to CB... "why are you presenting us a team for Championship with so little home grown talent, why not slot into D2 and build your whole program over a 5 year plan?".

And my question is, is the same thing happening at Casey? If it is, what is the league, who must see this stuff happen year in and year out, saying to Casey?

I have no issue with the Bellarine kids playing, its understandable. I merely listed them to give an insight into the make up of the team, for analysis and discussion

I am not familiar with what Casey have done, nor do I know how much effort their Association has gone to in building their pathways etc...

What I do know is that at CB they have put a lot of work and dollars into many different facets of their program and pathways over the past few years.

These things take time and yes, without imports and non-local talent they would probably be in D2 or lower D1, but they chose to lift the top end to SCM and have to live with that decision.

Right or wrong, well this will be seen in about 5 years I reckon, but unless you guys know all the other factors behind the scenes that have taken place to improve the overall standard of the program and its pathways, maybe you would comment differently?

To develop those local kids takes time and lots of it, the Geelong program is ahead due to its long term domestic competition being so strong in many areas, this has developed over 30+ years, so CB being new kids on the block in this regard will need some time.

No problem with that idea at all anon^, at no time have I stated that what CB has done was the way they should have gone, I have merely stated that they did and I am pretty sure it has been done by other Associations before they did it.

Solid and firmly build foundations are great in theory, how many boards have you been on where this has been implemented as a smooth and seamless transition?

What I have said is that they now have to work on their plans best they can with what they have. If it falls over, well it is the board that has to accept their plan failed, but their entry into SCM was their decision and it was accepted by the Big V...

If they went in top heavy, without building the ground up first, it will be a hard slog for many years and quite costly to support, but if it is the incentive juniors need to hang around the place and they develop some decent players, good on them for having a go...

Anon, you have expressed your opinion and a basic plan for any Association to adopt, but you should also consider there are many more variables and behind the scenes work that needs to be done outside of just the top end team they wish to submit, cheers.

In what way has Eltham suffered?

How has Eltham suffered? Really??????

Anyhow, I think 2015 will be a fantastic comp for Champ men......from what i hear there are some great recruits coming to the league.

Spoke to one of the Oakleigh boys last night and rumour is they have signed an import who is better than Kaban and he will be landing in Melbourne next week.

They have also had some strong talent over the summer period join the club. Sounds promising for them in D2M.

Some practice games on the Peninsula this weekend, Southern Pen Vs:

Saturday 7th Feb - Youth Women V Mckinnon 1.30pm
Saturday 7th Feb - Men V Mckinnon 3.30pm
Sunday 8th Feb - Youth Women V Keysborough 11am
Sunday 8th Feb - Women V Dandenong YLW 1pm

What other practice games are on this weekend?

I'm glad they've got airconditioning at Southern Peninsula as it should be fun in 35 degree heat....

Corio Bay Mens are having a game vs a touring US side on the 13th of Feb was a cracker last year be interesting to see what happens this time around

Taking the blow up pool with me Happy Days, should keep me cool in the stands lol

Keysy playing a touring group from the USA as well Saturday night. Is that the same one as CB are playin?

#Cavsnation

Isn't Watene also unfit and undersized? Doesn't seem like a champ player

Southern Peninsula Men beat Mornington by 30.