Vjbl is not elite! Revenue making machine only..

I suppose the question is where do you draw the line?

Some random thoughts on this. I see both sides, some kids should not be playing Rep Ball and are not even close to a decent level, but then again I'd rather see them playing Ball on Friday night than going out drinking etc. Also with better coaching than at a domestic level you can find some kids grow into very good Ballers which would have not happened at just the domestic level....then again it was way harder to make a team and play rep when I was a kid (I was cut 2 years in a row before making a squad, and rightfully so) 2 cents anyway...

It's kids sport, it should be encouraged no matter what the level of kids want to play, better they do that than roam the streets. Of course not all levels will be equal, but it also allows all abilities to have a go.

No doubt some rep teams are rubbish and are very beneficial from a financial stand point to the associations etc .. Sometimes ponder why kids in the 4th team in their age group bother with the commitment and cost.

I guess if they're enjoying it then there is no problem at all with the VJBL providing a greater amount of players a chance to regularly play vs other associations.

@Happy Days I have seen it first hand at all levels possible and with both a strong powerhouse Association and a new up and coming one.

My view is that while the VJBL can be improved (like most things), it is an excellent vehicle offered to our kids and when an Association gets it right it can lead to elite pathways.

The VJBL itself, I would not consider an elite competition outside that of the VC or VC reserve level, however as I said if an Association gets it right many kids can benefit greatly from it.

Unfortunately there are times when too many teams from one Association are allowed to enter. Yes, many times this results in poor quality basketball, but the bigger issue here is court space and time. We already have games scheduled after 9.30pm, for school kids and that is sadly not good enough!

If the VJBL was an elite competition, our best 18 year olds would stay in it, they go to Youth league however, because that is classed as elite at Championship Division, compared with VJBL under 20's.

Interested that Bulleen wasn't included in the top 10 clubs. Won 2 VC titles and not far off the third equalling Dandenong. Based on this seasons results and awarding 10 points for VC win and 1 point for finishing 10th in VC, club rankings at the elite level are:
Melbourne 59
Dandenong 54
Knox 46
Bulleen 43
Hawthorn 30
Nunawading 30
Diamond Valley 28
Sandringham 19
Eltham 18
Keilor 15

Re this debate, particularly in the younger age groups, you don't know how kids will develop. We have kids in the 5's bottom age that may make the 1's so if you limit teams to 3 you may miss these kids. At 18 girls we have 56 at tryouts. Much prefer that these girls continue to play rather than the alternative. We do rank 2 in VC and metro 1 in this age group.

Clubs surely would realise that they are not creating elite pathways for the most part because their resources are so stretched. But how do they go back to having less teams and losing the $$ that comes with having 30+ junior teams?
I think that they have backed themselves into a corner and the standard of the game is suffering because of it.

Anon @#498376 I don't see your point because years ago it was percieved as a Melbourne centric competition with draconian and outdated policy supporting those Melbourne power clubs and essentially the VJBL was seen as a Metro Melbourne bias competition.

Thankfully it has expanded and embraced Association participation outside that scope. But, along with this we all had to accept that the introduction of outer suburban and country Associations would bring along with it some additional issues.

Travel time and logistics aside, the new look VJBL is inclusive and as such allows the smaller Associations to at least develop their program to a point where if they are good enough they can make VC and play against the big power clubs at an elite level.

If not, then they make up the numbers in lower divisions and of course can still play against the top Associations in those divisions, however to split the VJBL and create another competition based on elitism suggests going backwards and doesn't address the real issues, it would just creates more problems IMO.

@Happy Days

'In local football theres one rep team per league per age group which makes it an honor to make that team. I had 4 rep kids on my domestic team and they were no better than the rest.'

On this statement^, comparing football representative teams to VJBL basketball rep' teams is not exactly fair. Football rep' teams at league level are more like basketball rep' teams at State level. The number of kids in one football team is also four times that of one basketball team, not quite the same IMO.

Also, your example of 4 rep' players in one team, no better than the others is very subjective, it doesn't really support your arguement. Any number of coaches in the VJBL can give examples to counter this or support it based on their personal opinion I believe.

Correction, the amount of players in a football team is closer to double+ that of basketball, not four, obviously!

Can a few of you add some information to what is a good topic?

The "cash cow" comment is interesting. It is only of any use as a cash if the money generated as a surplus is being used for other purposes.

The VJBL as I understand it runs somewhat separately to BV. I think even separate bank accounts - not sure if I am right. so...

a) does the VJBL play a license fee to BV? or is other cash in some way paid to BV from the VJBL?
b) What do teams pay the VJBL to be in the league? (not game by game costs, not venue costs - the actual entry and ongoing fees to the league?)

thanks...

Good luck with that one HO, it is such a broad reaching enterpirse these days with so many elements to its financhial system that will make analysing these points, valid as they are, very difficult.

I am unsure of team costs into the VJBL these days, however they were substantial enough years ago and I have never seen the VJBL clearly state how it uses any surplus; But as an incorporated body I suggest they should be displaying their financials with their AGM minutes somewhere...

The VJBL is an " elite" competition. VC and high metro divisions very strong. The lower regional sections are also usually stronger than every comparable domestic comp, due to coaching, training etc.
One suggestion above suggested a 10 team comp featuring the strongest clubs. Great idea, the same clubs can "steal" every strong player from all the other associations as they attempt to do currently, only then it would be worse. How are the smaller association supposed to develop their players and therefore aim for higher honours?
The VJBL is an awesome competition. It gives approx 10 000 kids a 40 min, 4 quarter game, generally better umpiring, training and coaching. Yes, the standard is diluted as the grades get lower, but it serves as a fantastic vehicle to get kids into structured Badketball.
My son isn't a VC player, but has played rep since the under 12's and is currently working towards a bottom age 18's team. He will be devestated if he doesn't make it, or if the VJBL changed the comp to make it smaller or more elite. The grading system does this perfectly.
My club spends a huge amount of money and time on the many kids in our area who we encourage to play ball, keeping them off the streets and giving them a partway. Our Rep program helps us to be able to do this.

Thanks anon-#421 for the reply, I agree with one thing in your post, that is the concept of allowing 8 teams in a 10 team competition to play finals. Too many, it removed incentive and competitiveness while rewarding mediocrity.

However, I don't agree with the rest of your post, the current VC structure allows 20 teams to play for 9 rounds and split into a top 10 elite core who play competative hoops and a secondary 10 who are also usually close in their match ups.

The old system had two VC divisions and if you were lucky (or unlucky) your team would be stuck with 9 other teams with no change for a whole season.

Anon #425, the standard of VC changes every year depending on that particular generation and last time I looked Victoria was still doing very well at Nationals. Maybe you have not given enough credit to other states for their improvement and development?

My 2cents worth. Having served on the committee of an association - the VJBL Friday night competition is definitely a significant financial revenue stream that Associations rely on.

To think otherwise would be naive. The Associations run BB all year round, effectively, including Friday night rep because it generates revenue and if they weren't using the council or school owned facilities, then other user groups would step in. i.e Netball, Futsal, Badminton, etc.

The Associations are a Business and should be run like one.

Too many people forget the good that Rep Basketball provides. As others have said it keeps kids involved in sport, which is excellent for an ever increasing obesity problem, it occupies their Friday night, they are probably too tired to go out Saturday night as they know they have training on Sunday, etc, etc. I could go on.

Having said that - back to topic.

No - Outside VC Championship (and not VC Reserve) the VJBL Friday night Rep is not elite. Their may be the odd elite player in VC Reserve or Metro 1, but, in general, the competition at these levels or below is not elite, nor are the athletes elite.

I have boys that have played at the VC level, throughout their whole junior basketball playing days.

The VC Champ level is elite, at least the top 5 or 6 teams, but not every player in these teams is elite.

However, let's be honest about it being elite - how many kids running around on any given Friday night are going to play BIG V Championship Men, let alone SEABL, NBL or beyond? Not many!

There are, on average, 10-15 Aussie Males that US Div 1 Colleges consider to be elite enough to offer them a scholarship. Then how many of those Div 1 College Basketballers actually make a living out of playing basketball?

So let's not lose focus here. Please see it for what it is. The great thing about the VJBL is that kids are participating in a team sport.

As they say, Basketball - everyone's game.

Well said ^^

Well said, nice to see some honesty.

#498418

It is interesting, and i know it varies association by association, and widely, but specifically what I didn't want to know... I am interested in the cash cow charge as its been leveled at the VJBL. What are they charging associations?

i will help you out there HO, from the VJBL web site on this link here are the team entry fees for 2015/16:
http://www.vjbl.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/images/PDFs/New_VJBL_Association.pdf

VC
Spring Season $30 per team
Grading Season $190 per team
Championship Season $430 per team

Junior League 1-4
Spring Season $30 per team
Grading Season $190 per team
Championship Season $310 per team

Regionals
Spring Season $30 per team
Grading Season $190 per team
Championship Season $310 per team

Bear do those fees include refs or just basic adminstrative costs.

Not sure of the breakdown @Happy Days, they is listed as team entry fees so they could be inclusive, but the finacials of such an organisation are not so easily comprehended.

Having a bit of a troll around I found some stats on the annual report for BV 2013.

It appears that in that year the VJBL had 77 u/20 teams, 359 VJBL league teams, 416 Regional teams and another 121 listed under VJBL Mini.

I have no idea what mini teams are, but if we add this total it gives us 973 teams in that season.

Let's round that off to 1,000 VJBL teams, potentially.

Team costs are on average about $550 per team, give or take.

That will provide the VJBL about just over half a million dollars revenue per season to run the competition at their end going on those basic sums, if I am right here...

Now we just need to know what they spend it on to determine if it is a cash cow or not, true??

True, administration and office management sounds like a simple job, but I know for sure the people at VJBL head office are very busy indeed, they also do a pretty fine job.

All I would like to see is that school age kids don't start games after 8.30pm, and I would be even more impressed...

Anon#594, you are correct that officials game costs are covered by team fees on the night, also Associations get another kicker in door fees up to $3.00 per person, including players.

The VJBL appears to use the money from team entry fees from Associations for Referee Development and other Development Programs, so no the same...

^
Point 1 - Agree. Elite for me are the players who make State teams. But even then, some of these athletes are not elite & will not go far. Troll for past state teams members and see how far they got and/or where are they now.

From first hand knowledge a lot of the U16 State team members are gone by U18 or U20. A lot that make U18 will not make U20 and so on.

Point 2 - Agree & neither is BA.
Point 3 - ???
Point 4 - Agree, many associations use the Junior Rep Program & their Domestic comps to bankroll the Seniors, & a lot of this is ego driven by committe members and senior coaches. But they are providing a pathway and a service. Let's be honst Basketball is not a cheap sport to particiapte in when compared to Football, Cricket or even Soccer.

Personally I'm not sure why we need to have imports at the Big V or SEABL level. This should be a breeding ground for local talent!

Point 5 - Are you speaking from first hand knowledge? Not exactly sure that you'd classify some associations that have a turnover of $3+ million as small business. Maybe the turnove is not massive, but there is a huge number of resources that need to be managed. If they make mistakes it could go horribly wrong very quickly.

Point 6 - Again are you speking from personal knowledge? I know of only one CEO that has moved from a Rep Association to an NBL franchise and I can't comment on that association's financials.

#498689 & others...

So what should an Association CEO be paid?

have a go at some of these for me.

Dandenong:
(WNBL/SEABL/15 court stadium to manage)

Nunawading:
(SEABL/5 Court stadium to manage)

Hawthorn:
(BigV/no stadium)

Craigieburn:
(BigV/no stadium)

I don't know what a CEO is paid HO, but if an Associations gets the right one it will make the world of difference, that is for certain.

The other thing for certain is exactly your point^ suggesting CEO's of one Association have a much bigger responsibility than another. Essentially a similar role, but a much broader set of KP's...

To be honest none of it should be a secret either. If the Associations are incorporated bodies as the majority would be, all financials should be listed according to their constitution and model rules.

Hawthorn are now something like the seventh biggest association in Australia and you think the CEO roles is part time and worth 20K?

BTW, I reckon most basketball organisations would be considered micro-businesses.

Kilsyth was $80k with a review after 12mths.Dandenong would be around 100-120k.Reasonable size Big V club was offering around $60k.

@498832

So running a competition for 600+ teams (ensuring growth all the time), running a rep program (senior and junior), working on sponsorship, overseeing referees supervisors and door staff - all of that doesn't add up to a fulltime job?

No, I listed one huge full time role depending on the model.

Any association with 400+ teams would expect at least to have a competition manager running that, with a GM over the top of that position.

And I didn't include finance and board reporting etc.

With your thinking any organisation in the nation, basketball association or BHP, could run without a CEO! Just get lots of part time roles to do all the bits!

Many basketball associations supply their own door staff/court coordinators when they don't control the venue.