Judging by the nature of language of your post you would be the exact type of person this email was directed at.

MAybe just move on out of the game and take up MMA or something.

Basketball doesn't need tools like you.

Not a lot of expectation from this end when Alan Garaway is the head of the snake.

While coaches and players were shown the new interoretations for the year ahead those on the sidelines have not been. the result of this is going to be even more outbursts from fans at the refs.

The refs are in a tough situation and after speaking to a lot of them at the BIG V tourney they hate the way they are going to have to call it as well.

The fact that a majority of the game is now spent with inbound plays and fouls shots is not a great product to watch.

I find it funny that the rules change in order to aid the offensive player and make games more high scoring.

Go back through the history of not only our league but pro leagues as well and the scoring is actually dropping not increasing.

What basic skill stes do offensive players need to have now? Be able to shoot foul shots.... because if they attack the basket they will get to the line.

Speaking of technical fouls...hshaha I think every one should be reviewed.. I think they should be recorded and a report be filed and then it can be rebutted or accepted by the coach. then after a certain number of techs received a review process for discipline should be considered.

The reason for this is it would have more accountability for refs and not just coaches. I have received techs that I deserve and then there were some that I got talking to my own player and for my body language... I think a coach has a right to know what he received the technical for.. the fact that refs can blow one and just walk away and not give an explanation is where I think the disconnect between the two sides lie. I honestly believe that just simple conversation between the two sides during the game would produce better results.. Maybe there needs to be an emphasis on better relationships with coaches during the game rather than calling a foul on a natural reaction to protect your gut with one hand or two when a player is barreling towards you. Use one or two hands its a foul use your body to absorb the contact its a block.. this is not net ball..basketball should be a minimal contact sport but not to this extreme..

NBL and SEABL have a point of emphasis on player/coach to referee relations. Not sure why the Big V haven't followed suit?
I don't really see anything wrong with the email. You could walk into almost any Big V game any weekend and witness one or both the coaches over stepping the line. It's high time many of our coaches cleaned up their act and focused on their teams.
And before I get slammed, I'm a coach and I've been guilty of overstepping the line.

OP, you are a fool and central to the problem and probably a perfect example of the tools that need to give the game away and go support soccer.

There is NO EXCUSE for poor behavior, if you can't control your emotions go get medical help. Carrying on after the game towards officials is disgusting, show some sportsmanship and leave it on the court.

ALL Victorian officials (SEABL, BigV, VJBL) have been instructed to call the game tighter this year, 2 hands on is a foul, everyone was sent the video explaining it, if you haven't seen it go to the VBRA website, its there, Bill Mildenhall is the host.

If you're talking to the Ref during play you're distracting them from doing their job. If you want to debate a call you need to change your approach, if you ask a polite question at the appropriate moment you need to accept the reply and move on.

The refs are not there to debate and justify everything they do as some coaches seem to think.

As far as spectators go some of the feral rubbish you hear at venues beggars belief, if this is how you want the kids to see you and as an example of behavior an sportsmanship the sport is in trouble.

Overall the directions for the season will focus on the following 7 basic areas;

• 1. Protecting the Ball Carrier
• 2. Protecting the Shooter
• 3. Charge / Block
• 4. Off Ball Contact / Screening
• 5. Unsportsmanlike Fouls
• 6. Travels
• 7. Player / Coach Behaviour

The above paste is directly from that document, for those who don't wish to read it all, these are the points of emphasis for 2014 by the VBRA.

I for one am happy with them, however the document discusses two hands on a ball carrier as a fowl. This is of course correct, and then it goes into how a shooter must be protected also, this too is correct.

Unfortunately what I see very often is the situation where a player in the key is manhandled, pushed and shoved, sometimes out of the way by the defence and not protected at all, just because they are a post player.?

So, while the emphasis on all of these is a good thing, some consistency by officials wouldn't go astray either!

#464794 You are spot on. I too agree with all that has been highlighted.

The inconsistency comes through inexperience and not being strong enough to make the tough calls and keep calling them.

If teams don't adjust to how the game is being called they foul players out.

Smart coaches make their players adjust quickly.

Smart coaches did their home work on the new directives in the preseason and drilled their teams accordingly.

Dumb coaches ignore the information they got and just argue.

The new directives place more pressure on the officials to be vigilant. Easier for the better more experienced ones but id suggest those officials who don't like the new directives are probably the lazy ones who hate making tough calls....

So, why is two hands on a post player not called as a foul then?

"So, why is two hands on a post player not called as a foul then?"


Really? could you possibly make a more broad inaccurate generalization?

Generally speaking then, why is two hands on a post player allowed when two hands on a guard is not?

"Generally speaking then, why is two hands on a post player allowed when two hands on a guard is not?"

Still extremely vague, firstly does the post player have the ball????? If they do i see these fouls called all the time, you're allowed a un-extended armbar, nothing more.

Generally, this is what I see, the post player doesn't have the ball and is grabbed around the waist, pushed out of position by a defender using two hands on their hips and bumped or blocked when they cut into the key to make position.

Then when they actually grab the ball, it is a free for all with the seconary or third defenders coming in to slap at anything they can, without fear of a foul call, as a travel on the poor old big with the ball is more likely to ba called (or 3 seconds in the key).

See it all the time.

Full Points of emphasis here: http://www.vbra.basketball.net.au/uploads/media/Points_of_Emphasis_Document.pdf

All seems resonable to me. By the way OP please note that this is an instruction to all refs at all BV sanctioned competitions. That is it applies to Juniors as well as Seniors, and even down to domestic. If you are unhappy with that, maybe you too will end up explaining your attitude at a tribunal.

"Generally" is still a very loose broad term.

When you have 2 players jostling for the same piece of court you will have a bit of bump and push, this is where "advantage/disadvantage" comes into play, the offense often creates as much contact as the defense who is entitled to hold or maintain their position if they established it first.

This is a completely different scenario to the post player receiving the ball, "back to basket", from that point onwards he becomes the "ball handler" (see directives), 2 hands on is a foul regardless of the playing position, an armbar is allowed to hold position but it cannot be extended outside the cylinder of the defensive players space.

The ONLY Vic administered league that has 3 officials is SEABL Men, the rest have 2. When you have the extra official you have a far better chance and ability to watch and manage off ball contact.

The other point id make is a very large percentage of player/coach/spectator angst comes from simply NOT KNOWING THE RULES, or thinking the rule is different to how its being applied..

Maybe more education is needed at the player/coach/spectator level.....

^anon, agree it is good to educate everybody, also agree that two officials can't see everything going on, but it is very easy to see a defenders arm wrapped around the waist of another player isn't it?

One of the two officials should focus on the point of attack inside the key while the other tries to follow the ball around the perimeter.

Advantage/disadvantage is very subjective. With ball in hand you get all the protection you want under these rulings, but in the key with ball in hand the consistency of the points of emphasis appears lost at times.

No one complains when the defender uses his arm bar but why allow the defender to grab his opponent and pull them out of the way when they are posting up and have a good seal?

These are the actions I see quite often, that frustrate and ruin the game for those who want to play to the rules.

Anon, I'm not sure what level you're watching but at SEABL (and NBL) level we see this managed pretty well, i don't see the things you're describing often at all, yes they do happen but no where near to the level you're suggesting..

Grabbing the singlet is an automatic USF, but the Ref needs to be able to see it first to call it, in a flurry of play its hard for them to see everything.

The referee's have areas of responsibility, they cannot look all over the court, nor are they allowed to make calls in each others area unless its a clanger. Players and Coaches need to learn which official is responsible for their areas too, again 3 officials can see far more than 2.

VJBL VC U/16 and 18's mostly

Ok, while this is no excuse for failing to make obvious calls, which is what i think you're suggesting, the one thing VC coaches need to accept is they wont get SEABL/NBL/State Champ level officials on junior games, juniors make more mistakes and are less skilled than SEABL/SC level players, and so too are the officials at that level. We all need to accept this and work with it.

Yes the rules are rules but as you go down the levels so do you too with the officials.

Let me add.. I see Junior VC and SEABL every weekend, if they called VC as tightly and as cleanly as they call SEABL most VC teams would end games with only 3 or 4 players left, i agree more seems to be let go at VC level, but this is primarily a function of a few things.

From my experience with watching VC is it's far more scrappy and at times difficult to officiate than higher senior standards and the kids are VERY hands on and lazy with defense. This has to come back to associations and DOC's to clean up their programs to make better defenders and also do a far better job of informing everyone within the club of the VBRA directives.

^anon, agree it has become very scrappy ove the past few years in particular.

Some blame may lay with the coaching in the way players have been adapting to what has been very loose officiating over this time too?

My observations are that coaches want their players to score and play defense without fouling too often, but they do adjust and have had to lately as some tightening of the rules is happening.

Players and coaches have been adjusting to the officiating for years. So, that scrappy and lazy perception, while it does exist now, agreed. It may also be contributed to the previously lax and possibly lazy officiating which the points of emphasis are trying to remedy?

Not umpire bashing here just making a point. I like to see the rules enforced and if players are fouled out of games they will learn from it or go and play footy where some belong.

I agree, and the problem is multi faceted.
I see so many coaches who clearly don't understand the rules, are in denial of the new directives or their clubs simply didn't pass on the information.

They look stoned faced when told "tell your players to get their hands off the ball handler, its a foul"...

Why would you react to that instruction? its a fundamental rule of the game, always has been but as you've said in past seasons its been let go too far and rightly or wrongly coaches have become accepting of bad practices from their players.

I also agree there has in the past been too many junior officials who simply are not prepared or are too lazy to call games correctly or tightly, but part of that is the way players, coaches and spectators carry on.

Nobody likes being yelled at or abused, its human nature to shy away from attracting unwanted attention even if its your job.

We as coaches (and spectators) need to take a more proactive stance to ensure we set a behavioral example first and foremost and give these refs the breathing space and work place environment to start to get it right.

At Snr level there is a massive problem with Referee retention, there are less and less officials prepared to ref now than 2 years ago.

We all need to address the issues that are causing the exodus from this part of the game because it IS a major problem.

Referee retention is something that needs to be addressed. What is it that makes it attractive to be a referee? If we want to keep them, we need to look at the cause and not the symptoms perhaps?

Are they supported sufficiently by court supervisors?
Are they trained to deal with people as well as knowing the rules?
Are they paid well enough?
Why do they want to officiate, what attracts them?
How do Associations plan to keep them, do we know their incentive to stay on?
Has there been a review of why they leave to determine the cause?

This is also multi faceted and complex, but needed.

I see one problem being the us versus them syndrome. Officials in the BigV can get coaches to behave better if they work with them and not against them. Yes, tech the prick, but at least give the coach an opportunity to prove he is a prick first, don't just ignore the coach. Try to work with the coach as part of the team first, he/she will soon be revealed for what they are but don't label the coach at first glance, see how this goes and communicate.

^^ yep completely agree.

There is a working group at BV and BA urgently looking at the retention issue i believe, everyone is aware of it.

Part of the problem is behavioral issues which id suggest is a driver for the letter that went out to BigV clubs. The irony in this thread is the OP response is categorical proof that the problem actually does exist.

The problem seems more prolific in the lower divs.

Equally there is some culpability at management level for the way politics has impacted favoritism and advancement.

There has been alleged issues of Nepotism, Discrimination and bias unfortunately.

It crates a lot of dismay and resentment within the ranks.

I don't think there is much support in this thread for the OP's attitude, to be honest. He would not be the norm out there among coaches, more the exception.

QUOTE: "I see one problem being the us versus them syndrome. Officials in the BigV can get coaches to behave better if they work with them and not against them. Yes, tech the prick, but at least give the coach an opportunity to prove he is a prick first, don't just ignore the coach. Try to work with the coach as part of the team first, he/she will soon be revealed for what they are but don't label the coach at first glance, see how this goes and communicate."


While in theory this is good in practice its extremely difficult to give more than a few quick words to a coach and there really should be any debate, its simply ask a question, get the response and move on.

The main aim is to keep the game flowing, long breaks to address or at worst debate concerns kills momentum and looks bad.

I agree, there should be some acknowledgement that a coach has a question, i also agree ignoring genuine polite requests is arrogant and inflames situations, but a coach making a statement "that's a foul" really doesn't warrant any response from a Ref.

Maybe some coaches need to get smarter about how they address officials: don't yell, don't make open statements, ask reasonable questions when there's a dead ball or and official is in front of you.

Learn how to rapport with them. Equally if a coach asks a question which you can't answer at the moment, give them a thumbs up, and go talk to them quickly at the next reasonable opportunity.

Work together!!!

Build a relationship with the Refs and you will be fine. Most Refs can understand the emotion that goes on in a game from players and coaches. The ones that are a 100% closed book I am sure will be culled by ther evalators.

Try talking with them prior to the match about current issues and the new rule implementation. If they can see your asking a question rather then directly having a go at what they are doing it will go a long way to building a better relationship between both parties.

Just like coaches/players bitch and moan about particualr players, refs or other coaches so to will the refs it is human nature.

If you are the coach or player that is always having a whinge then you`re going to get a bname for yourself amoungst the refs.

Saw this the other day, went something like this:

Experienced well respected coach spent time well before the game discussing new directives with officials, pleasant productive dialogue, other coach was an inexperienced one, doesn't like refs, wont talk to them.

Refs go introduce themselves at 5 min mark, new coach is asked if he understood the new directives, brushed them off with a yeah.. end of discussion.

Game starts, its a mug fest, hands fouls called everywhere, new coach is bitching and moaning, experienced coach tells his guys to quickly adjust.

Game goes on, 1 team adjusts, the other doesn't, foul count blows out, 2 techs given, game over at the free throw line.

New coach berates refs after game... LOL.

The lat 2 seminars i went to were a shamozzle, it turned into an abusive slanging match with many coaches simply not understanding the purpose of it so Garraway said he'd never do it again.

To be honest if you watch the video and read the directives you should have all the info you need. If you need further clarification contact Billy or maybe you're over your head being a coach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn9LEWd9jBg&feature=youtu.be

Great contribution Dale.

Anon #465338 - Absolutely on the money!! Sensational post by a basketball person with some common sense.
The solution, as always, is communication. Communication between the coaches, players and referees.
With the current obvious instruction to avoid any communication with coaches and players, it is only a matter of time before many players find playing basketball just too frustrating.
I agree with the post that it is time to get serious. People in the refereeing circles need to start communicating, not giving ultimatums.

Big V is for the players not the spectator... These new points of emphasis in the ref bosses own words was for cosmetic reasons. More fun to watch better for tv...I don't like the way this new brand of basketball looks.. 60 free throws a game is not pleasing to the eye... this is a players league not the nbl let's remember that and let the players play.I don't remember any such changes to points of emphasis causing this much uproar. Let's see how TV worthy bigv becomes when everyone just decides to play zone for 40 minutes to avoid foul trouble. And because basically any contact between two player is a foul. This is not netball..basketball is a contact sport. Players will instinctively exstend hands to obsorb contact from another player. It's a natural defense mechanism in where there is no intent on controlling the offensive player. If it wasn't broke why fix it. Basketball is just now starting to get back to prominence in OZ.. don't waste a great opportunity by continuing to structure the game for TV ratings. I personally like watching good defense not two team giving up lay ups because everything they''ve been taught to do defensively now leads to fouls. How about we protect the defender also and not let the offensive player initiate any contact. And let's see what the game looks like then. Actually I watched that on 10 I think it's called ANZ

The BigV Ceo has no control over how the officials call the game. The Ref's are controlled by the VBRA, who also look after the VJBL and SEABL.

If they're calling 60 fouls per game it means people aren't adjusting to the calling of the game, you could argue about the intelligence of people continuing to do the same things and complaining about the outcome.

The lower Div's of Big V have always been a more hostile environment as you climb down the tree...

The league is expanding at a rate that cant be serviced adequately in numbers by the VBRA, which is also seeing a decline in available resource.

The bottom line is without more money to improve training and make the job more appealing the problem will get worse not better, ranting with online petitions and calling for blood will make the problem worse not better.

Adjusting to the game would be playing matador defense..

The new way it is being called is frustrating...however its the same for everyone so we have to adjust.

My main frustrsation is spending much of the pre-season drilling players on full court aggressive defense only to find out 14 days prior to round one that things were going to be different.

It is what it is though.

Could possibly be a good idea to make it more public knowledge as the abuse the officials are getting now has increased 10 fold. Largely in part to spectators complaining about what in their eyes should be non-calls when comparing to what they watched last season.

Refs are just doing there jobs I think they have bee put in a crapy situation, I know of a few who wwere dropped due to not calkling the game tight enough. Many of them don`t like the new rules themselves.

Zone defense is going to come into play in more instances going forward.

Reply #466157

Correct.

This is the single Biggest issue out of all of this, the complete break down of communication with the Teams and clubs about the changes.

Teams should have been notified in Jan before pre season started to give them time to drill correctly.

14 days before season start is simply too late.

This is the major failing here, not the change in application of the rules.

Big V teams are not stand alone entities, they are governed by their Associations, so the communication breakdown may not be the fault of the VBRA or the Big V, as they would have advised the Associations long ago.

It is the responsibility of the coordinators within each Association to make sure they pass on current information, I would think!

Teams and coaches would have been informed, it is folley to suggest this has been kept a secret, surely not?

Was not kept a secret but I can assure you it was only made public the week before the preseason tourney, making that 14 days prior to round 1.

I know of at least 1 BigV club who found out by pure accident due to a coach talking to a junior panel official in late feb.

Alarm bells rang and they made enquirers themselves and found out that in fact yes the new directives did exist but they were completely in the dark about them both at BigV and VJBL level.

Interesting, so can someone from the VBRA please confirm the date and format with which all Victorian Basketball Associations were advised of the points of emphasis for 2014, please?

Big V Coach, there are 2 clearly different positions coming out in here:

1) one group claiming rude arrogant refs.

2) the others claiming the rules are too strict now.

Id suggest the new directives have caused the interaction issues you're claiming.

The Ref's have been instructed (amongst other things) to clamp down on bad behavior, this is magnified by coaches being up in arms about the tighter calling of the game, they go hand in hand.

The Referee's from Big V, SEABL and VJBL were all informed of the new directives via email on 29th of January 2014.

^Anon, thanks for the information, do we presume that their respective Associations were also informed?

I think I can recall our team getting told about something during grading phase, but it was not a big agenda item in the scheme of things.

These fouls are clearly rule changes NOT points of emphasis.. In college basketball the coaches were the ones who signed off on it after being communicated with..and during the off season refs were brought in to help players and coaches adjust to the new rules... they didn't say here it is deal with it. who asked for these new interpretations anyway. I don't remember a survey or anyone crying about excessive hand checking. Maybe holding and fouls away from the ball was an issue. I can even agree with the two hands on that's an easy one to fix. But getting called for a fist and forearm just gives the offensive player too much of an advantage as they can use it to protect and manipulate the defender. To eliminate any on ball contact offense must be addressed also. Its not only going to take a long time but it may not serve the purpose it intended.. scores will be higher but only because of free throws.. may the best zone win.

We now need to ask when each of those 3 leagues were informed of the new directives and when those Leagues informed their respective member associations.

Then we need to look at how long each of those clubs took to inform their coaches and teams.

It would appear in the case of BigV that there was up to a month time lapse between the directives being made public to the officials and Clubs being informed of them.

If this is the case it's completely unacceptable and goes a long way to explain why people are so uninformed and ill prepared and probably why there is so much (unnecessary) conflict.

Caught in the middle of all of this are the poor Ref's who have been placed in a very unfortunate position i believe.

#466235 The new directives ARE NOT rule changes at all, they are simply bringing calling of the game back in line with the actual definition of the rules because they have slipped over the past few seasons.

You have NEVER been allowed to place 2 hands on the ball handler ever nor steer or impede them physically unless you've established correct legal defensive position FIRST.

Kevin Bartlett has taken over the management of the Big V referee's by the sounds of it.

^ April 1st joke??