Where does the 1-2 million dollars per year come from to pay people full time?

Only Bendigo has 80k population

Bendigo has a population closer to 110,000. And you will find that Bendigo gets a lot of support from other surrounding rural hubs like Castlemaine, Echuca, Shepparton etc.

I was blown away when I moved to Victoria & drove up for a game in Bendigo.. it was better than many of the NBL games I've been to & their team & coaching staff all had good bball pedigrees.

I have posted before that I believe, of all the potential future NBL locations, Bendigo will be one in about 5 years.

That is just my opinion, but is based on some facts which support the possibility.

The issue I see for the NBL's expansion is also the cost (initial and ongoing)!

For the NBL to grow, I believe it either needs to change its model slightly, to accomodate teams under a more workable budget by reducing costs, at the same time introducing a top fed fincnial structure similar to that of the AFL and other major leagues.

Conversely, keep pushing the barrow and only allow the teams with huge financial security, big sponsors and an already solid business model to enter the NBL.

The problem is that the second option is not really working, is it.....?

Doesn't make any sense to have a team in Bendigo......

TV, Crowds/Venue, Corporate Support etc

The league needs to focus on the major TV markets to expand as it is the only way forward for the sport otherwise new revenue streams will be hard to attain and current revenue will struggle to increase to the league as a whole.

We need to take a look at AFL and take the wow look at the crowd support and look more at the $$$ when making decisions....(please note community support is important but deep pockets & $$$ are alot more important!)

While we are throwing around ideas, what about this one then...

What about a Victoria country NBL team, linked to both Geelong and Bendigo, playing home games at both venues and called the Southern Bushrangers or something like that?

Expand the NBL with another Melbourne team, sure, but accomodate the rest of the state with an NBL team supported by the two major country hubs, feb by their SEABL programs!

Like I said, just an idea....But maybe worth considering?

$700K would be quite a bit more than double the total SEABL program cost I expect.

need more than 6 players to compete in nbl

Seriously guys? Name a single Australian Supercat or Brave (uncontracted, not a guy like Garlepp that plays somewhere already) that would be anything other than a 9-11 player now on an NBL bench. Maybe Herbert, if his heart was in it.

Forget the imports, if they were good enough they'd be in the NBL now.

So now start your team.

Two imports, Herbert.... yep, now you are off recruiting seven other players.

And with that, you lose a lot of attractiveness of the SEABL, which is the the ability for your local talent to play at that level.

Disagree HO, if this was a 5 year plan, that would give you plenty of time to develop a list. Maybe right now, with the players available the concept would seem a little short on talent, but where would the players for a new Melbourne franchise come from?

Or, the new Brisbane team, or a new team from N.Z...?

You may be trying to fit the current environment into a longer term play here mate, also the SEABL season and NBL season are conducted during different time frames, so I could see such a concept gaining favour.

Just needs to be seen in a positive light; Go the South (Country Victorian) Dragons!

^Anons you will have to understand how far back the name goes, it was the only recognised basketball Association in Geelong way back in the day, before others came onto the scene and got their house in order.

I suspect you may be trolling...

Right now the region is thriving with more local kids able to play at various levels, I don't see anything but positive things coming from the three Associations in the Greater Geelong area, little brother in Surf Coast still has a long way to go perhaps.

Please do your research and you may be surprised as to what you will find... :]

I know this has been discussed before, but does the NBL need to have division system?

For example, the "premier League" consists of the current NBL teams, plus say 4 "associate" teams like Bendigo, Ballarat, Mt Gambier etc. An Associate team would be a team that has been in the premier league for 3 seasons or less in the last 5, or could be an current NBL team with a win rate less than say 20%.

The next division is the "reserves" for want of a better name consisting of 12 or so teams (a merging of the SEABL/CABL/QBL/WL/WASL etc)

At the end of the season, the bottom 2 premier league teams play the bottom 2 reserve league teams for a chance to go pro/rel. If the bottom teams have won over say 20%, then perhaps they have a chance to stay in the premier league unless the lower ranked team clean sweeps them in a best of 3.

You could then have a premier league team linked to one or two reserve league teams and feed players between them (with some guidelines so they don't get stacked etc)

Thoughts?

Bear, you might disagree, but you were obviously not reading what the anons above my post were saying.

#462066 - forgive me if this is completely wrong, but haven't the Supercats and the Geelong Association always been aligned? I though the original Supercats came from the Geelong association.

It takes more than the 2 imports to bring the Bendigo Braves back to Championships every year. They have a quality program over there with some developing local talent that has come through the huge grassroots system that Bendigo has.

Also there is not a vast difference between the quality in SEABL to NBL. The best SEABL teams can compete with the worst NBL teams.

Half the work has been done for the NBL in a team for Bendigo or you can start from scratch somewhere else..

JW, we had a discussion here some time ago where we talked about large versus small associations etc. Bendigo do not have a "huge" grassroots network.

And the best SEABL teams cannot compete with NBL teams, especially when the NBL content in those SEABL teams go back to their NBL clubs.

There is a significant(and I have said before widening) gap between SEABL and NBL.

And my response is you also have no measure to establish that. I'll try and find the thread where it has been discussed before and give you a link... rather than rehash it all.

Subjective arguements and opinions aside, @Jack Toft I have posted similar ideas also, probably more in line with divisions as well as conferences, to keep costs down and create rivalries.

Not something we will likely see in the near future, but worth discussion, that's what forums are about no....?

Thanks @HO, actually I did read them, hence my point that you and the anon may be trying to fit the current environment into what would no doubt be a longer term proposition.

I get that some of the conversation is about the here and now, mine was not entirely though, cheers...

Ok, so I don't need to find it. Cool. You read every one of them? There have been a few.

I don't think our NBL has been "significantly" weakened either. It might be more accurate to say that it is not as strong as it has the potential to be given home grown players not playing here.

You talk about a significantly weakened league, that is offset in my view by the reduction in Australia teams to seven. The best of the rest I argue have certainly maintained the standard.

#462094

With accurate data.

- The largest two basketball associations, and neither of them are called Bendigo, have something like 1000 teams, 1500 is nonsense. The next biggest to those two have around 800
- these associations are generally recognised to have around 10,000 players
- Bendigo registered less than 3000 in 2012, which if divided by 6 players per team, might give them 300 teams. Even allowing for the growth you claim, they would now have just over 3000 players.

That is not huge, by Melbourne standards that is a small to medium association. They do not have a huge grassroots network.

I am not being disrespectful to Bendigo. My view is that they are an excellent organisation and clearly the biggest in Country Victoria.

@anon, I believe that Bendigo Basketball is about to get more new courts built, not sure of the details but another 3-4 courts alone would bring then up to level with some of the biggest Associations in Melbourne.

HO, how accurate do you think the official figures quoted are? I wouldn't rely on official basketball records alone, certainly there are quite a few variables to consider.

Bendigo as an Association, for example, would have vastly more potential for growth than say Dandenong.

I qualify this in the belief that population growth, court expansion and competition from nearby Associations alone would seem to indicate this probability.

How accurate? Dunno. Probably every association cheats on its numbers so they don't have to pay fees to their state body, but it ain't going to move Bendigo from 500 teams to 1500!

Of course Bendigo has more potential - massive fish in a little pond. Dandenong has basketball competitors on all sides, including the Southern Hemisphere's most up and coming association in Pakenham.

Bendigo may have a good local base and a large budget but what happens when that runs out? Everything goes in cycles. Perhaps a Bendigo / Ballarat Team would be a better option. Gives two large regional bases with a some money and a passionate fan base. They could then represent the country vic area. Close proximity and near other places like Shepparton etc. where a lot of support comes from. I do know there is a fierce rivalry between the two BUT if it was to work the potentially there could be something very special.

I just think we are being a little narrow minded about one town. Melbourne as a city historically can't sustain two teams for a bevy of reasons - what hope does a 110K town have? so why not look for a country based team. Get the players to travel into schools and get it a community team. Get people involved and make it big.

Then the issue comes in where do they play? The 1000 seat Minerdome or the 2000+ portable second hand run down additional stand Bendigo Stadium? No, there needs to be a long thought out process before any decisions get made. The NBL is on a cliff. If we can build then it will prosper but if new teams fail then I'm afraid we will stay as a small and insignificant league.

In my humble opinion the NBL should look to Brisbane, Tasmania and other large regional areas first. Build it to ten teams and then take a gamble on something like this. Because admit it - a 110K town with a stadium miles behind the NBL and a history of financially struggling pro teams is a huge gamble. I'm all for a regional team but lets make sure that it's done right... Around 30 NBL franchises or teams are now non-existent. Lets not have that embarrassing number rise!

City, not regional. My bad

@Bear, I do remember those discussions. I think the NBL being privately owned now might make a difference.

When you look at the successful leagues in any sport around the world, there are always clubs banging on the door trying to get into that league.

With the NBL, where are those expansion clubs going to come from? Option A is a new club. Built from the ground up like say a GWS. They need to garnish support from a population, knock on doors for sponsorship etc. Option B is a club taking the next step. Like a Port Adelaide moving from SANFL to AFL. There's an existing supporter base, sponsor base, volunteer base etc. They dominate their current league and might struggle for a bit in the new league. Option C is an amalgamation model. There are existing clubs (or an association) that creates a new team from the feeder clubs (e.g. The Crows)

Is 8 teams enough? What would be the ideal number? How many NZ teams do we need to keep it a true Australasian League?

There was an article a year or two ago that said they wanted back in, but they'd need a better stadium first.

Given the new direction the NBL's gone with expansion, the stadium may no longer be an issue.

8 teams are not enough.
Wellington and Hobart in 2015? Hearing it a lot around Melbourne and Sydney sports people....not so for Brisbane's return next year.

Actually I meant 2014-15 season with Brisbane maybe the next year.

Thanks for the common sense and non conflicting post @Jack Toft, yes we can probably learn quite something from other successful leagues, even if from different sports.

The league needs expansion to give it a better chance at making their current teams viable. It needs more product to sell and more areas to sell it in.

That is a current theory Paul. Have they produced anything to support that?

And I would argue that the SEABL is weaker than it was 15 years ago, if only because, players from four of the NBL teams, Cairns, Townsville, Perth and NZ, rarely play "down" it it now.

This was the debate in the other thread, which others struggled to understand, which was the SEABL does not really serve the purpose that it is meant to, and therefore probably needs a radical rethink.

For a start, there were more NBL teams, two in Melbourne, two in Sydney.

And again, there is no demonstrable anything about the dilution of the NBL talent pool. I think we get a bit romantic about the depth of the NBL back then. It had superstars, some loaded teams, and good role players. I think its deeper now, and the game has changed, as we have seen. Some of those players would struggle with the way the game is played now.

Sure, we can substantiate that there are more Aussies overseas, but you can't substantiate that the NBL is worse as a result, just that it is not as good as it could be if all those were playing here.

No.

Saying something is not as good as it could be does not in any way imply that it is worse that what it previously was. It just means that its potential is better than what it currently is.

In other words, I could argue that the 2013/14 league is as good as the 1998/99 league.

However, I could further argue the 2013/14 would be better than 1998/99 if those net 10-12 players playing overseas were here in our league instead of there.

Of course, I could also argue that the talent playing OS now, particularly in the NBA, is better than anything we had playing in 1998/99 here, and that therefore there is no net negative impact on the league of talent dilution. (I wouldn't argue it, because I don't quite believe it, but it would be an interesting case to mount, particularly for the NBA guys).

I would argue that we have probably not seen the level of talent in our junior ranks than what we are currently seeing.

The amount of players coming out of junior ranks to play overseas in the U.S. college system, or elsewhere around the world is perceived to be at its highest level for quite some time.

Banter or political discussion about which league is better or how the gaps are changing seem to be less important to me than forging an elite Australian competition to accommodate what I see as loads of potential talent coming through.

I realise there are many challenges in doing this, also that the new structure of the NBL and BA have changed our landscape somewhat; however the bigger picture is clearly in line with identifying the increase in the number of our elite or potential elite players and how do we accommodate them into playing here!

Anon, I will acknowledge the NBL standard debate is unprovable, but my argument is not shaky at all. My explanation to you was solid logic when you suggested I contradicted myself.

You are saying the NBL is weaker than it was.

You can't prove the NBL is weaker than it was simply by saying that we have more talent overseas than we used to - although it is a good premise.

I can't prove the NBL is as strong as it was because there are less teams now spread across two countries - although that is also a good premise.

I don't accept the NBL is weaker. I think the league has changed significantly. The game style is different etc. I think the NBL remains a very good basketball league, played in a very different way.

I will say this. 15 years ago we didn't have four players in the NBA. We had Longley, with a couple of short term contributions here and there from Anstey, Heal and Gaze. I could argue that our best is better now than then. It would have a reasonable rationale and lots of numbers if I could be bothered doing the work.

I don't think the SEABL is closing the gap on NBL, I think it is widening. There are very few SEABL players now who make the NBL grade (I can only think of Herbert and Petrie who genuinely stepped out of SEABL into NBL in the last 5-7 years other than old AIS players but that is what they were in the AIS for). And I think cases like Ben Allen genuinely show the gap.

The only top-line players I can think of who have gone to college in the past few years and then not played NBL are Aleks Maric, Ryan Broekhoff, Matthew Dellavedova, Daniel Kickert, Aron Baynes and Brock Motum.

Patty Mills should also belongs in that list given his was a lock-out inpired stint, and I might have missed one or two but it's not many.

From memory the NBL averages somewhere around four new players from college each year, one goes to a major overseas league and the rest scrounge in lower competitions or leave the sport.

That's why we desperately need more NBL teams.

Read my post again. I'm talking about guys who went to college and then went to another top-line league.

Sorry. That list is simply full of holes. I have to go to work now so don't have the time to point them out.

So to start with, take the imports out. If the SEABL is a development ground for imports to make the NBL then we have our priorities all wrong.

A bunch of those guys played in other leagues before making NBL...

Using the SEABL to improve for NBL...? rose coloured glasses.

#462207

Agreed. And it is a shame we are not seeing more of those guys come back into a league like SEABL. It would ensure the SEABL was always improving.

The world has opened up. A kid that once went through the junior system and played SEABL here can now go to College and head back to SEABL or comparable league, or head to Europe if they have the right passport and play 3rd division in Sweden.

Thanks. You need to read the other threads.

I am not down on the SEABL, I just think it is nostalgically overrated. It has been a very good league, but, and I am not the only one to voice this view on here, it is not as close to the standard of the NBL as it used to be, and that is a concern. The gap between the SEABL and NBL is too large now. This is not the AFL, where you have 800 players in the top tier and can therefore afford to carry numbers of developing players on your roster at the top level. Basketball needs a genuine second tier development league, fit for purpose.

I don't look at it through rose coloured glasses. I look at what it should be achieving as a development league and ask if it is doing that.

The whole move toward an under-pinning league was around ensuring that that was fixed up - shame in some respects that it did not progress.

I agree with anon's point that the arguement about the gap between SEABL and the NBL is quite subjective and difficult to substantiate with statistics or other meaningful methods.

I also agree that in many regards it appears both are doing a good job in providing an improving basketball environment for the players and us as spectaters.

But I see HO's point also, it would be nice to have a second tier basketball competition truly aligned with the NBL as a feeder to support the main competition by providing a recognised competence level which can satisfy the desires of our best coaches.

That's why forums are a good discussion point, we can agree to disagree but ideas do come forward that make for interesting reading...

Anon two above hits the nail on the head. It's not about the individuals in the NBL or SEABL as much as it is about the system.

NBL guys spend every week in a pro environment that only has room for 60 Aussies making it pretty cutthroat. Every day they get to develop their game at a high level.

SEABL guys train 2-3 times a week after work in a comp with 120 mostly second-tier Aussies further diluted by the fact a significant of quality players compete in other state leagues.

There are plenty of players in the SEABL and other second tier comps who could contribute in an expanded NBL if given the chance to work on their game full time, as guys like Jervis, Vanderjagt, Walker, Dillon, Herbert, White, Hire etc have shown in recent years.

#462361

Fair Call.

I acknowledged in this discussion, particularly around the NBL, that there are strong premises to support a view that the NBL is as good as it used to be and strong premises to say it is weaker than it used to be. I also acknowledged it is subjective.

I have a view, and have expressed it as a view, more so in other threads, that the gap between NBL and SEABL is larger than it used to be.

I have a different view (and it is a different discussion), which I think I can support very logically, that the SEABL is not setup to act
as the best possible development league it could be, and so is not fulfilling its purpose.

What shits me most, is the apologist mindset that says that because I express these views I am down on the SEABL or just negative. That is just irrational.

Its a well run, well orchestrated league. I have said that on numerous occasions. Just because someone criticizes or questions something, does not imply that the persons mindset is that it is crap.