der komissar
Years ago
well, pointy end of the season - who can enforce the "no zone" by law / rule ?
umpire ?
referee?
stadium manager ?
junior committee member ?
have seen some blatant running back into the keyway with no offence within sight lately....
der komissar
Years ago
player or players running back into the keyway and not matching up is not allowed in u10/12/14 in sa
no offensive player within the front 3rd of their court
der komissar
Years ago
getting a huge u12 to run back like a soccer "goalie" and stand under the basket with the ball not even being in that half of the court.
alexkrad
Years ago
Just scream at the refs from the sidelines.
If you dont get ejected you're not yelling loud enough and your kid wont be proud.
We have had this before and we just went to the stadium manager. He watched the next few offenses and then he went to the coach to get them to play man on man
Anon
Years ago
That isn't a zone. A defender is allowed to run back and wait in the key for their opponent. It is what they do once the ball and their opponent arrive that is important. If the ball is down the other end the defender is a spectator, not a zone defender.
Have a look at the "Zone Buster" manual under "By-Laws" on Sporting Pulse. It explains what a zone is and isn't.
PlaymakerMo
Years ago
Not sure why I'm bothering with this...
Whether or not the ball is over the half is irrelevant. Half-court defenses e.g. traps are allowed, but must revert to man defense once broken (I believe).
But back to your rhetorical question: zones are used to great effect (two clubs in particular) in U12/14s given that they aren't easily exposed to junior referees.
Court supervisors generally CBF interfering for any justifiable issue, in my experience at least.
I agree that a player can run straight back in defense and alot of teams do this as they run a full court trap. It's when the player in the key doesn't pick up a player once the ball has gotten over the half way line and all they are doing is blocking the key. It's pretty obvious when teams are doing it and it does happen.
What Anon said. Definitely not what der komissar said!
what a joke this is going to be. How can you pass a rule and THEN ask how to enforce it at the same time as tryiing to definbe the rule.
Out of interest do people consider a half court trap (in their defensive half) a zone? I understand that a full court trap isn't a zone as they fall back to man on man.
elementary watson
Years ago
i understand it is what goes on within the 3 point line / keyway - so half court trap is fine
Thanks. To me when a team sets up a 1-2-2 trap in their own defensive half it looks alot like a zone as the back 2 are in their own keyway.
Whaleoilbeefhooked
Years ago
The by laws explain this (See Anon's comment #963)
If anyone is unsure whther the defence is playing man or zone, watch what the defender does when someone cuts. If the D floows the cutter then the D is playing man. If the D doesn't follow, then it is a zone.
The coach of the offensive team can expose the Zone very quickly by playing basic pass & cut for a few minutes.
The problem is when the court supervisor doesn't react immediately and allows the zone to happen for most of a quarter. This can decide a final and should not be allowed to happen. Especially when a team stands a couple of monsters in the key defensively in Under 10's or 12's where they have very little chance of being hurt from the perimeter
FM
Years ago
Are they playing zone or is that big kid too tired to play proper defence.
Too many times people scream zone when clearly the 12 year old big kid just doesn't have any puff to function properly any more.
Then he should be subbed off. If he zones, Tech 'em!
whaleoilbeefhooked
Years ago
Fair point FM but I bet that same exhausted kid manages to find the energy to sprint into offense at the first sniff of an easy basket. so I agree with Anonymous - tech 'em, I bet the issue is then fixed in a hurry
Its the coach who wears the Tech foul.
If your going to comment then at least know what you are on about.
anon
Years ago
Steps for detecting a zone should include:
seeing if a cutter is followed through a key (sometimes ill tell my players to switch on cutters as i want to keep my big guys near the key as often as possible)
Does the Defence rotate on ball reversals? (Zones will tend to get lazy on reversals and stay put after a few passes)
Is there a too much help on a drive? (man to man theres one maybe two help defenders depending on the offensive set, zones will collapse with 3 sometimes 4 help defenders)
Whats the offence doing? (If the offence isnt moving then the defence wont move, many a times ive heard coaches getting angry because it looks like im playing a zone when in reality, their offence is a 4 out 1 in with no off ball movement)
If i coach against what i think is a zone, ill get a court supervisor across and run a give and go on one side, before reversing the ball to the cutter and letting him/her drive to the bucket. In a loose motion offence set-up this is usually effective to expose a zone.
good luck finding competant people to act as zone busters at EVERY u12 game. This was a poorly thought out knew jerk reaction to something which isnt a problem.
can we have a Vic sub topic on the forum?
This conversation is going all over the place because the Vics are complaining about a new rule, which has been in place in SA for a long time.
SO if its been a rule in SA for a long time show us the proof that it is benificial to player development.
You would assume that the U14 Nationals would be a good guide so.......
Boys Nat winners.
2002 - Nunawading Vic
2003 - Dandenong Vic
2004 - Sandringham Vic
2005 - Sturt SA
2006 - Norths NSW
2007 - Knox Raiders Vic
2008 - Werribee Vic
2009 - Knox Raiders Vic
2010 - Melbourne Vic
2011 - Hills Hornets NSW
Girls Nat winners.
2002 - Dandenong (VIC)
2003 - Dandenong (VIC)
2004 - Nunawading (VIC)
2005 - Melbourne (VIC)
2006 - Willetton (WA)
2007 - Bulleen (VIC)
2008 - Bulleen (VIC)
2009 - Dandenong (VIC)
2010 - Melbourne (VIC)
2011 - Bulleen (VIC)
2012 - Melbourne (VIC)
Yep sure did help SA develop players.
haha listen to the out-of-their-depth zoning coaches whinge and whine now that they will be exposed!
Which anon is "hughj"?
So how do you explain the lack of Victorian players in National teams?
SA has more players in the Womens National Squad.
NSW has more players in the Mens National Squad.
If you think banning zones equates to players in the national teams then your barking up the wrong tree. Lets look at the u18 Nationals shall we....OH YEAH SA have not won a u18 title in the last 10 yrs !
Clearly banning zones in SA has worked wonders for them.
Typical shortsighted response from a coach trying to deflect and change the conversation.
We get that a lot here in SA from one or two clubs.
State teams need a number of things for success. Good basic fundamentals is just one of those factors.
Talent, Size, exceptional athletes are equally as important.
Trying to connect success at 18 Nationals solely to a rule about Zones in Under 12s is desperation and simply proving to everyone else involved that you are way out of your depth in this conversation.
i didnt try to make any connection, I simply asked for the proof that banning zones helps player development as this is the sole argument put forward by the individual who started this. I didnt put SA under the spot light. #434151 did. The fact is that if SA has had the rule in place for so long it deosnt seem to have made much impact on that states ability to produce juniors who can win at a national level.
And who's to say they wouldn't have performed worse without the no Zone rule?
I thought the thread was started asking who can enforce the No Zone rule, not about whether we should allow zones or not.
whaleoilbeefhooked
Years ago
So because SA haven't won national championships at Under 18's level then forcing teams to play man to man doesn't work.....
I'd argue that one of the pre-requisites for success at Nationals is population size.
Obviously Vic Metro and NSW Metro will win a greater share simply due to the population competing in the Vic Junior Champs. This also goes to explain why Vic Country do well because the Bendigo, Ballarat & Geelong kids (plus Sunbury, Bacchus Marsh, & other towns close enough for kids to commute)
Great argument, you should go into politics with that level of intelligence
#4204 At Spectres, how long does it take to teach a group of bottom (and in some cases double bottom) aged kids a zone offense? I don't mean a to get 1 or 2 cuts right, I mean to actually run the offense without your guidance and execute it properly? 4 or 5 training's? maybe more? Don't you think that time should be better spent teaching fundamentals and skills? Conversely don't you think you're kids deserve better than to stand in the key for 40 minutes every Friday night? Challenge them with things that will promote them as players, not just win them games!
I think you need to calm down. This is only U12s. Had this rule been brought in over all ages groups, then I would have had a problem. But it wasn't. It is only U12s.
#4180 that is a good point. Surely the desired outcome is more Opals/Boomers selections.
huhg....err I mean anonymous has shown to only care about cheap wins in U/12s, and obviously doesn't care about the long term development of his players. Nor does anyone else who zones in U/12s. The fact that this cheap ploy has been banned and thier hysterical overreaction to it has just exposed the weaknesses these coaches have at developing our youngest players. Thankfully most clubs do the right thing.
As for trying to justify it with U/18 Nationals results, well as someone else said:
"is desperation and simply proving to everyone else involved that you are way out of your depth in this conversation"
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