Wellington Saints Owner was on the 6pm news here in NZ on TV3 putting his hand up for inclusion.
He also said he would need the Breakers blessing and he in no way wanted to impact their brand support and that he thinks two franchises could happily co-exist in NZ and benefit the NBL.
With their NZNBL side already well established he pointed out that it could serve as a pathway along with an academy much like the Breakers.
Also had current Saints Coach Pero Cameron and Saints PG and NZ Breaker Cory Webster making comments in favour with Cory pointing out that even though he plays for the Saints that he's a Breaker through and through.

The Saints had over 4,000 at their NZNBL season opener at home.

If nick mills has the money, why not?
Whispers the team won't be under the saints banner if they do make it into the NBL!
Breakers havnt given any support towards it but doubt it won't hurt the league. More chances for kiwi talent , maybe a Breakers & Wellington GF lol

Boti's hinted that the Dragons could be a chance to return. I think the league would want the 10th to be a team in/near Brisbane before Wellington.

But that said, I do think having two teams in NZ would share the Tall Blacks around and make that long road trip a bit more economical with clubs facing both teams across a weekend.

A burst of incoming teams could really spread talent thin. Maybe give new teams three imports in the first year to compensate while the points cap is adjusted, etc.

Barriers to entry to the NBL are pretty low now without BA.

Good for Wellington's cause as they dont need the $1M guarantee (even though this wasn't a problem)

Also, Wellington will be seriously considered now, as the NBL doesn't have to worry about another NZ team entering 'their comp' like BA did.

It's critical for a new TV deal for Brisbane to re-enter the league. From what I know, that is their #1 priority at the moment. Followed by a 2nd Melbourne team, 2nd NZ team hasn't really been talked about in any length apart from Nick talking to the media about it.

2nd NZ would be nice, but with 2m metro viewers in Brisbane unrepresented, the first effort has to go there.

The Saints have been working towards the NBL for a number of years.
They are the most stable and successful NZNBL franchise by quite a bit.

They have a well established fanbase in Wellington,the owner has said he would consider moving to Christchurch if it helped their case but I think that's stupid. Christchurch has struggled to keep their NZNBL teams well supported and afloat let alone an NBL club that will struggle have it's work cut out for them on court in a much tougher league where as die hard Saints Fans will prob be a little more understanding.

Teams could play the Breakers Thursday night in Auckland and play Saturday night in Wellington and the local derby games would draw decent crowds.

Most of the current Tall Blacks were Breakers Academy players and unless they were cut by the Breakers would remain loyal to them.

There are a few Kiwi's currently without NBL positions and a couple in Australian Clubs like Bartlett and Truman.

Lindsay Tait, Nick Horvath, Casey Frank, BJ Anthony, Leon Henry, Dion Prewster, Marcell Jones, Mark Dickel all don't have contracts and others will be squeezed out of the Breakers over the next few years . Wellington will also give young players another Academy Pathway choice into pro basketball as opposed to the Breakers current talent monopoly.

I'm all for Wellington over any poorly supported Brisbane team.

This has been my stance from day one.

What good is a big market if no one in that market gives a shit?

What makes you presume no one in Brisbane cares? You're right in that it will probably be a struggle in some senses but if it's marketed correctly there's no reason a Bullets revival can't succeed. The matter of an appropriate venue that won't cost a mint to lease is a bigger issue.

Herald-Sun Page 77, Dragons Ready to be Courted. With the de-merger Cowan will seriously look at bringing South Dragons back.

Isaac - you clearly think the player points' system will continue. If I was an owner, it would be one of the things I might want to change. e.g., if I was Perth's owner, I'd be pretty conscious of it. Salary cap level may also be up for discussion, given it hasn't moved for several years (? I think) and only one member of the group working on the shape of the new NBL would be disadvantaged by such a change (and even they are one of the few clubs who made a profit last year and so may have room to spend more).

I'm really curious about what this next incarnation of the NBL is going to look like before I'd speculate on how many teams there'll be etc. e.g., raise the salary cap and do you create the opportunity to lure back (from overseas) or retain higher quality locals as coaches and players, thereby deepening the talent pool to something like it was 10-15 years ago?

No one cared when they had that monster team full of legends that waltzed their way to a title. Why would it be any different as an expansion team?

The only change should be length of game
With all the caps, teams need to spend and recruit upto the caps. Otherwise don't bother complaining about not winning. I'm sure there's sponsors in each area with nothing better to do then support local basketball
Need a solid tv deal then go from there.

Don't need a higher salary cap and especially not if there are more teams.

If you have a salary cap why do they need apoints system?

Also id bet the points system would fail any challenge in the Equal Opportunity commission because it allows discrimination.

Don't count on the extra length! More minutes= more cost. Can't push up the salary cap, the length of the game, take on your own promotion and marketting, establishing admin and office etc all at the same time. And before the trolls flame this comment, the veues will charge per hour not per minute so go into the next hour, and there is venue, security, car park attendants, other venue staff and so on. There was very good reason to go back to a 40 min game other than satndardisation with FIBA.

Thats a great troll yourself FTV! What nonsense!

HO. Apart from the bad typing...yes I must proofread...what is nonsense about my comment? There are real costs day to day that have to be covered. Each decision that BA, or a New-NBL, makes about game presentation, structure of the comp etc. has a monetary impact. All am I trying to do is hose down the expectation and then the howls of protest later, when a 48 min game doesn't eventuate. And yes...I have got experience in putting on events...and yes I do understand the costings.

Having said all of that would I like to see a 48 min game...absolutely.

I dont think the NBL is really in a position to be too choosey about which teams they will add and when. I mean, they cant just say "brisbane first" when theres already a perfect NZ team ready right now, yet nothing going for Brisbane. If Wellington can prove there up to the task, absolutely they should join the league. South Dragons would be great, I felt like they were really on top of things when they were here... why in hell they would leave the league is anyones guess...

I agree if a Wellington team is ready now why not let them in im sure we will see a 2nd melb team or Brisbane team soon enough. There is enough talent to create a new side 2imports 4 or 5 kiwis and a few Aussies would make a decent team.

Tickets aren't cheap
So nobody wants to go
Packed stadium pays for the extended time
Not like stadiums got concerts and stuff everynight

No need for the salary cap to be raised, especially with more teams. 8 teams with near $8m for players, moves up to near $10m with 10 teams. If clubs are smart, they won't just use that extra $2m injected into the competition salary pie for giving everyone raises (expansion with diluted talent would otherwise just require salaries for some end of the bench players). It might be enough to actually lure some Euro players back.

I'm a fan of the 40 minute game. Moving to 48 minutes might further expose the diluted talent from expansion.

Agree completely with the several posters above.

Wellington are ready to come in so let the bastards in. It has nothing to do with a Brisbane bid. They aren't mutually exclusive options.

When Brisbane gets their shit together, of course, let them in, but Wellington looks to be a sure-fire thing and a very stable organisation to boot.

Another regional city that gets behind their team and packs out the stadium every week and generates all that good PR for the league can't be a bad thing. I don't see why Wellington coming in has anything to do with Brisbane...

I'm all for slow, stable, sustainable expansion. And Wellington is stable. Brisane is not.

FTV, do you believe the illum!nati as well? 40 versus 48 minute game decision had nothing to do with how long you hire a stadium for.

I am happy to acknowledge that there are fixed and variable costs in hiring a venue for a game, but variables in large venues generally have more to do with crowd size than time in venue. And fixed costs dwarf all of those anyway.

Pikachu. Here's a quick update on stadium availability and economics for you.

The NBL is not an attractive proposition to most indoor stadiums.

a) unlike a concert, they do not generate great merch sales which in turn generate commissions for stadiums
b) the ticket prices are way below a concert, meaning any percentage deal struck on tickets is at base
c) they are regular customers, and thus more likely to have less indulgent habits at the game - like they eat before getting to games and don't spend at concessions etc.

As for availability. There are only two big challenges in the NBL fixture process. First, travel - it gets managed. Second, stadium availability - it is a major issue in some venues - particularly Sydney and the convention centres.

nobody likes going to watch a game with empty seats in abundance.
Fans=Support/Money/Culture
Empty Seats=Twitter rants/Lazy Players/No money

Unlike concerts , you can't cancel a game if ticket sales are low. Now without BA getting a slice of the pie, teams should be upselling club memberships.

It amazes me how so many people throw expensive, uncosted ideas around as if they will just happen, and it will all be a huge success. Even with the split, the reality is that there is simply no money in professional basketball - it is a negative sum game. Some decent and prudent management has happened to this point to make sure the league survives. I just hope a sustainable plan is put in place for the future, not an Eddy Groves model, because rich bastards losing money on a hobby isn't sustainable.

On the topic of this thread, it would be great to see additional teams such as the South Dragons, Brisbane and another team from Nu Zulland...

Obviously it needs to be financially viable and I would expect due dilligence to be conducted by the new powers to be on that.

Money is difficult to generate in the NBL as it currently stands, not withstanding a couple of teams that are successful and manage themselves well enough to make a profit.

Unless we can present an entertaining and well marketed product and also generate some interest in the general media, we will remain unfinancial and stale, uninteresting to the public and media.

So, while we can sit back and find many reasons why the NBL should not expand and we can be negative overall about our long term viability, what else can we do but try to get the ball rolling and see if we can't spark some genuine interest back into the NBL?

If we can get the millionaires to come together and bring in more teams and more money, to start something, you just never know!!

We don't need to bring up excuses like the talent pool will be too thin or garbage like that because if we can show we are serious about our league and we get the exposure in the media we will potentially see more talented players want to come over here...

Who wouldn't want to come and play in Australia if there was a decent league with some cash to go around, better places in the world to live and play sport in are few and far between IMO.

Pikachu, no one has actually established that BA are getting a "slice of the pie", and I have never heard anyone say BA takes a piece of season memberships or ticket sales.

BA take a piece of finals, but all sports leagues do that.

BA certainly take an equalisation payment for airfares, but if they did not manage it this way then some clubs would not be in the league.

The only issues Ive heard along 'taking slice' argument was staff paid for by NBL deals changing their focus away from just NBL work to cover other BA areas as well. I imagine clubs werent happy with that, especially as things like website, live stats, highlights, social media all went down the drain.

BA's pie included a 100k participation fee from each franchise each season did it not?

I find that view incredibly insular (not yours Paul). The NBL clubs are not the be all and end all of sport development in this country. In the AFL there is a significant dividend to the sport (as a whole) from the various rights deals the league generates. So the TV money does not just support the league, it supports the whole sport. Ditto, the NRL clubs used to pay a fee directly to the Rugby league development arm to support grassroots sport.

It has been well proved that the health of the NBL has nothing to do with grassroots basketball and its strength in this country. IE, grassroots basketball can do without the NBL largely, but the reverse certainly cannot be said.

The NBL generates very little wealth. In not generating returns for the whole sport perhaps those clubs should suck up the fact that some staff work on issues that are non-NBL. If in turn those staff are not doing their NBL related work well (websie. livestats etc.) then remove them.

If the de-merger happens, it will certainly be interesting to see the attitude of larger grassroots organisations the minute something does not go there way.

I dont necessarily agree. I can understand clubs being unhappy with being charged a participation fee to run the competition (on top of their own losses they cover to keep the club/league alive) while having some of the money generated by league contracts spent on other BA activities with the running of the league subsequently sub-par.

If BA were continuing to achieve league growth and things like NBL TV, website, online marketing etc were being done well then that's when some NBL revenue could be used for other purposes.

I can understand too, but do the clubs know their place?

I made the point about competence. The person who made the decision to change web and livestats mid-season needs a rocket, or removal.

But at the other end, NBL clubs (certainly in Australia) are spending nothing on the development of the game, and on the players they ultimately recruit. In any model someone at the top has to invest in that, be that providing NITP type structures or running national champs or whatever.

I keep hearing about this participation fee btw, but have not actually seen or heard its amount other than the rumoured 100k above - which i doubt.

Incidentally, the states, who control 60% of the vote of BA, pay a participation fee in the form of their annual fees. If the NBL clubs want to control 40% of the vote, which they do, then the principle is similar.

It is around that mark. It is higher than the WNBL clubs' contribution. Fairfax NZ reports $100K:

"There should be some immediate relief in the dropping of a $100,000-a-year participation fee"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/basketball/8625217/NZ-Breakers-hail-positives-of-ANBL-de-merger

So Paul, do we know what the participation fee includes?

It doesnt include travel, which is roughly the same again from what Ive heard.

So will there be any tension between BA wanting NBL players available for Boomers camps & games, and the NBL owners trying to protect their players?

I anticipate issues around finding suitable dates, making players available, injuries which are serious enough to keep them out of Boomers camps & games but mild enough to allow them to play NBL, insurance, etc.

Would BA actually look after players better than the selfish NBL owners? (Not looking at Essendon or anything, but ...)

There werent issues before BA was involved so I dont see any reason why there would be now. It's in the interest of both NBL and BA to cooperate on a range of issues.

I just hope the owners have learned lessons from the past and realise being in the community is just as important as the more high profile issues.

think if the NBA is alllowing their players in the world stage the NBL owners should just shut the heck up

So what do we think. Are the Dragons a chance of re-entering the league for the upcoming season or is it more of a wait and see approach?



Its all gone very quiet all of a sudden

Who knows what is really going on behind closed doors and between these millionaire owners??

I would love to see them back, but in reality it is a wait and see isn't it.....

Whichever way it goes, Melbourne, or Victoria for that matter, needs a second team in the NBL or IMO it is a big joke and the rivalry / interest down south will suffer big time!

Hoopie,
it's a simple case of they can't afford to look after players. NBL owners protect their own interests but I don't know if you would call it "looking after players" either.