Yea not good by the NBLPA, i most of the time sit on the side of the owners aswell, they havnt screwed anyone, everyone got there 2 weeks notice.

The owners dont need the NBL or the players they could all walk away and probably instantly increase there personal wealth as they are no longer pumping money into a NBL club. The league and players need to realise this. Its the players and Basketball in Australia that loses if the owners walk away more than the owner, especially financially.

Maybe if players took less to play and were not sucking clubs dry then this kind of thing wouldnt happen, clubs are losing 100s of thousands a year and players still want pay rises, etc each year and most dont seem to take less or do extra to help the club make money and hence increase there security, it doesnt sound to me as if the Crocs have done too much wrong, just decided they dont want to lose more than the 2 mil they already have, which is fair enough, how can you demand someone lose more money, when they have invested so much, go little return and basically kept these same players in a job, its a bit like biting the hand that feeds you to me.

think about it if every Crocs player took 10%-20% less, the club would save 100-200k a year, significantly reduce/eliminate the losses the players have shown commitment and the club might be more inclined to stay alive and the league would be in a stronger position imo, and that basically goes for all clubs, even if it means some of the end of bench guys become semi-pro. hard to side with the players on this one for me. The PA wont like it but i think the cap needs to reduce by atleast 20%, if players want a league and job security, they cant keep sucking clubs dry, cant have it both ways.

playing pro sports is a priviledge imo, many people would love these guys jobs and there are heaps playing SEABL/ABA who would love a crack and be happy to take the money these guys get less say 20%. There would be players also around the world who would play NBL for less than an Aussie whom they are better at, ie i bet Hurdle and Henry were bottom half earners at there clubs whilst being one of there better players, so Aussie players need to be careful with there salary demands, the NBL could simply open up another import spot or 2 and we could replace some of them with better imports for cheaper, again players cant have it both ways.

Sorry about the rant, greed just frustrates me and this seems a bit greedy and ungreatful on the players behalf.

The Crocs owners treated it as a business. They made money out of it as a business. Therefore they are bound by the rules and regulations of the industry they are involved in. Insinuating 'the players should be grateful' mantra is simply, (pardon the pun)- a 'Croc' of shit!
The players have mortgages, bills etc. like anybody else. Just because they play NBL does not mean they get any special privileges in this regard.
You can't take your bat and ball and go home simply because you don't currently like the state of play.
Fulfill your legal obligations and then disappear on to your tropical island with the money you made in the good years.

The Crocs franchise were once the model that everybody aspired to. They were rightfully proud of that and they themselves professed they were 'how it should be done' as they were one of the few teams that were profitable.
Quite common knowledge actually.

The players are employees.

They are entitled to their wages that they were contracted to receive just like the rest of us.

I don't feel the same sympathy for owners.

Anyone who buys a NBL franchise should have a pretty good idea that history dictates you will make a loss.

Most are wealthy enough from their non-bball earnings that they make the choice to buy a bball team and lose any losses for tax benefits.

If I made $10 million a year from non-bball earnings and was prepared to lose $1 million a year owning the Townsville Crocodiles then I understand both the legal and moral obligation to satisfy all contracts in full. It is true that my team is making a loss and is dependent on my 'loans' but that was always the case and always the commercial reality of the ownership.

Of course i have the right to call it quits but honouring the contracts in full for services performed is the legal obligation.

Isaac, normally i would support your "give them time approach". However, didn't Basketball Australia say they were rejecting Townsville's return of its licence until it can prove it is insolvent/bankrupt.

If so, maybe the player's have heard that Townsville's ownership is taking steps to be declared bankrupt and if they wait any longer they may lose any chance they might have to receive their outstanding pay?

Yes the players are not responsible for running the business, but the players salaries would be by far the largest expense and also in a way the easiest to reduce if required.

As far as NBL clubs being profitable, i doubt it for anyone, yes some seasons some may turn a profit, but i doubt overall if anyone has ever come close to a profit from there investment in a NBL club, if they have well done to them, they must have bought in around the boom time and got out not long after, even then i doubt anyone managed to do this.

The only people who do make decent money out of a NBL club are the players/coaches, etc.

Think about it how much has say any player made from the Crocs? Compare that to the owners 2 mil loss then see who made the money out of it, no matter what the player is paid he earns more than a 2 mil loss, these owners may be wealthy but also have families to feed, etc like the players, if the players/coaches want more security/money well as isaac said put more in to promotions, making the game product better, ie helping a club make more without costing it more, players earning less is also a easy way to reduce costs and make clubs more viable and in turn make the jobs more secure, players need to realise this and be willing to give a little not just take all the time, some may do, but all need to, especially the ones who complain.

Think about it like this if you were running a business of any kind and losing money, personally putting your own money from other sources in and doing countless amounts of overtime while drawing no extra out to keep the business alive and your staff of any kind came to you and said i need more money/greater job security how would you feel? Would you think the staff member is being ungrateful and a bit rich? Especially if that staff member isnt doing more than the minimum they have to do.

If owners were really making millions per year out of the NBL and players were not getting paid more than they are, i would be on there side, but not when every club is struggling, many going broke, or very close to each year, owners also have personal lives and expenses just like the players, the owners dont have to sacrifice anything for them, but i would guess many would, even if you are rich enough to not worry about the loss, you still have the choice to buy a Ferrari or invest in a NBL club, or simply keep the spare cash, they dont need the NBL or the players, there personal wealth would likely be better without them, so lets be greatful for every cent anyone poors into a NBL club.

Also out of the 2 mil in losses how much would have gone into players pockets? my guess is a fair chunk, so id say the players have got there share, yes contracts should be honoured, but doesnt 2 weeks payout do this? many contracts have a 2 week notice period, so not exactly sure what the Crocs have done wrong? Especially when they have NO money, its not like the owners are walking away with some cash ripping people off, they have already lost heaps, alot more than the players.

Exactly, if the players hadnt been paid for part of the season id be on there side, they have been paid for every game played, they are not exactly working at the moment in most cases, so nothing stopping them approaching other clubs for next season or getting another job of any kind, could play SEABL a European league if good enough, i was dirty on the Firepower kings owners back in the day when they owed players lots of money and didnt even pay them for the whole season, but the Crocs ownership have done fairly well and been quite fair imo.

The issue is the owners have violated the terms of the licence agreement. It's not hard, play by the rules and nobody gets hurt. That's why the rules are there. Of course they have the right to wind it up but they didn't do it by the book. Why? Ignorance? I doubt that.
They may claim they are bankrupt but until they can prove it, the NBL and players have every right to consider they are still active.
By reports they needed to give 9 months notice they were folding under the licensing agreement. They would have clearly known 9 months ago the ship was still taking on water and not going to get better. Why did they not declare then this was their last year?

It was fine for the owners to pocket the profits in the past but as soon as the players ark up about their contracts (that the owners signed them to) thats not okay.

Bullshit.

Isaac, seriously? Players run the club?

From the Townsville Bulletin:
'Over the past six years, Mr Colbran watched as he saw $1.5 million in profits turn into $2.5m of debt, and he decided he could no longer plug the gap with hundreds of thousands of dollars out of his own bank account'.

1.5 mil in profit! Nooooooo, there's no money to be made out of owning a bball team. The fact they have managed to screw it up since then is who's fault??

Guaranteed that if they have declared a $1.5million profit over those years they made far more than that.

^^ Agreed!

That was $1.5mill in profit over how many years? 15? That's hardly megabucks for what they were expending.

Isaac, you are normally very sensible with your comments and reasoning but surely you can see that idea as in the realms of fantasy for the NBL.
Nobody said it was easy, but if you choose to do it then do it properly by the governance of the rules. That's all the NBL and players Association are asking for.

Ummmm......Six years. They managed to turn a 1.5 mil profit into a 2.5 mil loss in a 6 year period. According to them of course, which is yet to be proven.....hence why the NBL are asking questions and won't accept the licence back.

1.5 mill in profit was built up over a lot of years, 2.5 accumulated over six, dont pretend they had a money tree.

For the uninformed, what's the structure of the NBLPA? There's a lot being thrown around about Holmes, but it surely isn't a one man association? And it's clearly too late for the Blaze guys, but maybe they learnt from that and are trying to be proactive since they let it slide a lot last time?
I'd have also thought that being so close to retiring, Holmes would be pretty keen to stay in Townsville and play since he may not get another gig? Not trying to be devils advocate either, but it seems like if you treat it like any other business, legal action is not the craziest threat (although totally agree that timing and tone are terrible).

Amen sixtiesrockstar, my thoughts exactly.

As i said even the lowest paid Crocs player has made more than the owners have, over the last few years, so have nothing to complain about, especially those earning the top dollars.

Then people bag owners for not being willing to lose more than 2 mil, wow, if only i had 2 mil to start with let alone be able to lose it. I know its shared between a group but still would be likely a few hundred thousand each, which yet again is more than i have let alone what i could lose on a basketball club, which is essentially a hobby not a necessity for the life of the owner.

Maybe if all of us fans and players did more to support the owners and were real with what the club can afford and do no club would be in this position, not just expect people to lose 100s of thousands of dollars just so we can enjoy a league when many fans dont even buy tickets for the game but criticize an owner who loses a thousand times more.

I personally think they should drop the salary cap to 750k, extend the season by 5 or 6 games, keep the ticket prices similar per game.

Then maybe with a saving of 250k on the salary cap and say 3 home games of say a 4000 crowd at an average cost of $20 making the club an extra 240k, sure there are other costs eg hire of stadium, game night staff, etc but even if they walked away with 50k of that as profit each club would be around 300k better off. Thats a significant reduction in losses, could make some clubs profitable even. This would also even the playing field a little as the Hawks and Taipans are already only spending around this, so would no longer be at an advantage.

Yes the players would have to earn less, yes we may lose a guy like Cedric Jackson, but i dont think we would lose too many Aussies, we may lose some to other jobs and careers, but i also dont think it would be that many. For example say Gibsons wage drops from 150k to 100k, sure he could go to Europe, but i reckon if the big bucks were available he would already be there like most of the other boomers, and what other job could he make significantly more than 100k doing? not saying he doesnt have other strings to his bow ie qualifications, etc, he may well have, but its not that easy to earn more than 100k in most careers. If a couple of guys like Gibson go to Europe, so be it, atleast we will still have a fairly strong league and it will be potentially a lot more stable and viable. If depth of talent becomes an issue because we do lose our top Aussies allow teams to have a 3rd import, has been shown you can sign decent imports who can have a pretty good impact on there team ie Henry in the 40-80k range, would the 36ers have been significantly worse if we replaced Gibson, Cadee, Christopherson, Crosswell with Henry, Hurdle, Massingale, Daly, i personally think it could have been an upgrade and been much cheaper, probably could have got the 4 of them for around the same or less as we are likely paying Gibson and Cadee. Even more reason players need to pull there head in a bit and be real with salary demands, especially if imports who are better are willing to play for less than our Aussies a massive chip on the side of the league that the players need to think about it, again they need the league/owners more than they need the players. There is still good money to be made for the top Aussie players in the NBL. Not saying we should replace Aussies with imports, if possible dont do this, but NBLPA shouldnt be threatening owners with anything, they could seriously shoot themselves in the foot. If this was another GC v Joyce scenario or firepower kings scenario then yes the owners were in the wrong, but generally the owners do good things for the league and we should all be soo great-full.

It may also mean 9th and 10th men become part timers, but again so be it.

You could structure the salaries like this

1. 120k
2. 100k
3. 95k
4. 85k
5. 80k
6. 75k
7. 70k
8. 65k
9. 35k
10. 25k

Total 750k

That would be pretty fair to me, all top 8 guys are on a good wage and 9th and 10th would be part time and have a reduced training load, give these spots to locals, ie in the 36ers case im sure Daly and Warbout or Pero would have been happy to fill them and wouldnt have negatively impacted the roster.

In all NBLPA pull your heads in, be greatfull for the owners and the combined millions of dollars they pay you, all at there own risk, for essentially is just a hobby/entertainment, they could entertain themselves for much less if they wanted to, so lets not bite the hand that feeds us.

I hope this Crocs scenario is a big wake up call to all involved in the NBL, they make some changes, reduce the cap, and make it so the worst team financially is viable and grow it from there. The players are still being paid very well for 6 months work.

In relatively simple terms, I have a Question?

You are offered a job to move interstate, on lets say....a 3 year contract. Your employer has sold you on the move, of course the hefty pay rise plays a huge role.

So off you go, wife, 2 kids, a dog or cat :), pack your bags and move. You decide to sign a lease for 3 years as you received a much discounted rate because of a longer term. (3 years of course is your contract length) (lets not also forgot some people would purchase a home)

After 1 year there is some turmoil in the company and things are on shaky ground. The business owner that hired you decides he wants out immediately without a relative fight. He shuts up shop and lets employees know he will not honor future contracts.

What do you do?

The way I see it, the NBLPA is not handling this with the delicacy of the situation, that I agree with.

But all the people on here saying its a privilege to play basketball/pro sport, give back to the club blah blah blah. Such an old school mentality which doesn't equate in todays age. The NBL is a business, just like your local builder, your local grocer, your local mechanic. If you have contacts you must honor them, OR, try to do anything in your power to come to a settlement.

NBL players have mortgages, a wife and kids, car payments and bills much like those of a builder, mechanic and pretty much every other other worker in the world. Why should they let this slide and be the scapegoat for the ''good'' of the league.

Last thing, clubs can fix their books easily. When they were making profit I would be close to certain they underquoted that profit, when they take loses, I'd be close to certain they magnify their loses, Business 101 gents.

My two cents.....

^^Amen!

So did you do your own due diligence into the viability of the company you are signing with and their financial returns over the last few years.

Did you ask any questions at interview regarding their long term future or plans to strengthen their position in the marketplace.

It is all an unfortunate situation for owners and players. Things could definitely have been handled better (as almost always when humans are involved) but the players are trying to get blood out of a stone on this one.

You really think if you ask an NBL team their long term vision, they would say hmmmm we are just hoping to get through this year then not honor contracts and walk away, just don't tell anyone.

So FYI. By your thinking no NBL player should purchase a home in their respective playing cities? Cool job.

Valid points Isaac, but you keep ignoring the fact the Crocs ownership went about it the wrong way. Notification was required as per the licensing conditions and they didn't do it. I'm sure if they gave 9 months notice, whilst the players would have been disappointed, it would have given them plenty of time to organise their lives. The owners knew back then they weren't going to continue if losses over the years were indeed the issue.

The 9 months is fairytale stuff. In the real world it can only apply to someone who wants to get out of the NBL while everything is still going reasonably well with the business.

When things are going badly owners who want to be in the NBL are looking for anything to keep afloat - new equity partners, new sponsorship, a best-case-scenario with crowd numbers putting money into the organisation to break even. It may just be plain old denial on the part of an owner who after losing money for 6 years straight thinks this is the year they will break even.

I agree they should probably dig into their pockets to honour contracts for 2012/13 year, but in my opinion they are entitled to pull the plug as insolvent after so many years of losses.

So why didn't they appeal for help to transition to a commumity model then? They have walked away at the last moment giving very little time for a community model to take shape. They obviously knew they were going to fold way before it was announced. If they really cared about their product and wanted to see it continue don't you think they would have raised the alarm...oooohhh....lets say, 9 months ago? Smacks of self interest and the attitude of 'if we're not running the show then no one will'.
Absolute bullshit, and then to top it off they have the audacity to put it back on the players for their poor result. There is no philanthropy in this, this was a business, it was run like a business, it's gone under as a business. Fine....but you still endure the rules of being involved in this industry. You didn't follow them, hence you will be penalised....as in any other business!

What shits me is all the apologists banging on about how the owners didn't know this, didn't know that etc then why were they signing guys to multi-year deals last offseason and only just re-signed Mitch Norton to a 3 year deal about a week before this happened?

There is a pretty bad smell about all this and the NBLPA are right to make sure their players get every cent they're entitled to.

The NBLPA are absolutely right to get all the players are entitled to (the admin and office staff are also right to get all they are entitled to). Announcing it all via a press release and media interview is another thing entirely and probably Hinders more than it helps (couldn't help myself, sorry).

So if both the Hawks and possibly the Crocs underspent how do both teams then lose money.
Surely there is no business sense it it at all. WE know the Hawks losses are susidised by a benefactor and cleary the Crocs have been as well.
So why bother resureccting the club if they will lose money? Just saying

Ok. So the numbers have dropped off. Rent will be cheaper and the ticket prices cheaper accordingly, so where is the revenue going to come from to put a successful side on the court without spending the cap.
NO success, no side.

Whateva that meant

^^ Great ideas Nathan. Very, very sensible.
Go back to 48 mins and you have easily implemented things to try.