Would need a new stadium for starters.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/-/basketball/15967225/regional-aust-ripe-for-nbl-expansion-gaze/

Small mention in this story.

They literally just put up the article on the site. Wasted a bit of my time.

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2013/01/29/358165_local_sports.html

Nice work KET :)

This just shows how commercially out of touch Gaze is, doesn't even understand the fundamentals of his own product.

Not so sure about that, Geelong would have far greater resource and poulation than either Cairns or Townsville.

Townsville is larger than Geelong but Geelong is larger than Cairns (by population).

Would be interesting, but need a new stadium. Nothing against the current one but it only holds, what, 2000?

Have to build a whole new stadium which would be difficuilt in this current environment considering neither of the governments are spending any $$$$.They would have to be looking at a 5-10 year window to get it happening.

Anon,

All the reasons why the NBl should or should not add regional teams were argued here....

http://www.hoops.com.au/forum/30456-will-an-nbl-team-fold-in-2013/#p397739

Thats why Gaze does not understand his product. He thinks of it as an isolated, strength of town/club proposition, not as the leaguewide proposition.

In summary, the NBL losing Gold Ccoast has had no negative impact. The A-league losing Townsville and Gold Coast has been positive.

The NBL needs to concentrate on the bigger markets. There are already too many small market teams in a comp that only has 8 teams.

However - I think Geelong is a somewhat important market. With the Geelong AFL club being extremely successful on and off the field in the last decade, Geelong has a large profile from a sporting point of view (as opposed to the Gold Coast which couldn't care less about sport). So with that in mind, and with the possibility of a strong rivalry with the Tigers, Geelong has a bit of merit.

Plus with the league starving of more teams, the league should welcome any interest they get as long as they can prove they can be financially viable.

Venue would be an issue though...

#401516

gets 10 / 10.

But isn't the whole point that Sydney and Brisbane teams have struggled financially historically? Their market is already flooded.

In an ideal world, sure, the NBL would have a massive following in all the capital cities that would prop up the league. In the real world, that simply isn't the case.

No one in Brisbane follows basketball. There are no Brisbane born players in the NBL. Compare that to NQ and you have a fair chunk of Cairns, Townsville and Mackay guys playing in the NBL as well as Nathan Jawai (Bamaga) and Aron Baynes (Cairns) overseas.

I welcome Geelong to join the league if the model is viable.

The league NEEDS every team they can get, and they need those teams to have supportive fanbases irrespective of the size of the city they happen to play in. They do not NEED the Bullets.

Why not have 10 Melbourne teams?

The NBL is not in a position to pick and choose where it wants teams unfortunately. They have tried, and still are trying, for a Brisbane team and they want a second Melbourne team - but every bid has failed so far, and who's to say it wont keep failing in the next few years.

There are only 4 'big' markets in Australia so regional teams is essential whether you like it or not!

Absolutely the NBL needs to focus on getting bigger market teams and to make its current big city teams - Tigers and Kings - a success. And then focus on regional teams. That would be ideal.

But if there is interest in bringing in a Geelong team in the meantime then why not welcome them in? They are a sports mad town and basketball is quite big there. Certainly more so than on the Gold Coast. The league needs to get a move on with expansion. 8 teams get a bit boring especially when its a 2 team race for the title.

Mick, didnt Rhys Martin, Chris Goulding, Tim Coenraad and Cam Tragardh all grow up in Brisbane?

Indeed they did, pretty sure Tragardh and Martin came out of the program at John Paul College, who won a couple of national school boys titles a few years back.

Like I said in the other post today about a new NBL team (that got deleted) I'd like to see at least 2 or 3 years of stability without the NBL losing any teams before a new team being added is even considered.

We have gone 3 years of stability and growth. Gold Coast was a dud market and all codes struggle there, so the NBL can be forgiven for losing them. The league needs to expand otherwise it very quickly becomes stale, and that wont help with its stability.

Besides, if we lose another franchise (say Townsville for example) we are down to 7 teams. The league hasn't got enough teams to lose!

Grow to 10 clubs, and keep it at 10. 8 isn't enough, otherwise the novelty of a small 'boutique' league (if there was one) will wear off soon.

yeah, hopefully we can get a team before we lose one, i really would hate to see a nbl team fold

The thing with geelong is that they are ridiculously patriotic with their sports teams..so if there is any national sporting team in the town the majority of people will support it, especially if the Geelong Addy gets on board.

The issue is the stadium. Sh*t place to watch basketball and way too small.

Mick and Wildcat fan, here is the equation.

More regional teams as a percentage of total teams = less league revenue (both TV and major corporate) which...

= less "common" wealth for all.

The league must be represented in key decision making markets. there are 5 of those in the NBL purview - Syd/Mel/Bris/Ade/Per. Geelong could have 750,000 people; it would still NOT be a decision making or influencing market. Maybe if it was that big and had its own TV stations.... (maybe).

This league already has too many regional teams (four from eight).

I agree the league needs 10 teams - but the ONLY priorities can be brisbane/melbourne.

Oberon74. Your sample size is 1. One team. the Geelong Cats. As i said in the other thread they are a team with 100 years of history in the most followed sporting league in the Southern Hemisphere.

Of course the other team that Geelong had in a national league was a team called the Geelong Supercats, who were on struggle street from day 1, and left the league. The issue is not the stadium. Shit or not, and I think its 6/10 for amenity, the fact is that even when the Supercats were in the NBL they did not always sell out. The stadium holds less than 2000 people.

And Mick, wasn't Aaron Baynes born in NZ?

Dont get me wrong HO, i think that it should be Brisbane then 2nd Melbourne then then looking at other options such as Geelong. But of all the regional teams, Geelong makes sense well down the road. I cant see it happening for a good 10 years...if it ever does...

2 divisions, 8 teams in each anyone?

I too would prefer a 2nd Melbourne team and a Brisbane team - its just that its not happening! Every bid to date has failed, and the league isn't growing.

Im definitely not suggesting the NBL becomes an all SEABL type league all of a sudden with a shit load of semi pro small town teams, but I do think there is a place for Geelong - Just need to ensure that we have a side out of Brisbane and a 2nd Melb team too but whether that happens before or after Geelong shouldn't be an issue.

I dont know much about the revenue side of things, but I was under the impression that each club looked after itself and got no revenue help from the league. So therefore each club must be self sufficient and live and die on its own fortune/misfortune.

Anyway, not arguing the point - I would just like to see the NBL grow like everyone else!

Mick, I think Larry Davidson is from Brisbane too.

The Sydney rivalry worked when the razorbacks played out of Liverpool (actually in western Sydney), not when they moved to homebush where the kings will be playing their home games all next season.

Sydney cannot have a 2nd team. It will never work, it's a stupid dream. Melb, Bris, 2nd NZ team, and then regional sides.

@Speed44 Why can't Sydney have 2nd team, but Melb can?

I'm not asking to be antagonistic, but honestly interested in why this might be the case?

It could be argued that the likelihood of a 2nd team working in Melbourne are just as small as for Sydney. There have just been, in the past, more businessman in Melbourne silly enough to back an, ultimately, futile expansion team.

Melbourne is a basketball & sports town, Sydney is not.

I think melbourne's sports teams being centrally accessible by a better public transport system is probably as good a reason as any why it is a bigger sporting town than Sydney. Regional teams work because there's nothing else to do and less sport to compete with.

The quicker we get 4 more teams in the comp, the quicker we'll have 4 less teams in the comp!

Imagine if we had;
Tigers
Bulleen Boomers (or whatever melb side)
Kings
W Sydney
Geelong
Tassie devils
36ers (& maybe another SA team).
Perth (Freo?)
T/ville
Cairns
Bullets
NT
Canberra
Gong
Newcastle

Wow that would be cool...

oh i forgot NZ.

They can stay also...

NEWCASTLE!!??

I'm with tropical Booz, that is a league I'd love to see and my Wildcats season membership would have so much variety.

As for Geelong Supercats, I'm all for it, if we could have some collaboration of the cats and Supercats building a facility big enough for them both to train and seating up to 5000 then they have my support and maybe their model should be community based.

I'd love to see Hobart, Geelong and Newcastle have successful bids before we consider a second NZ team, a second Sydney or Melbourne team.

Hopefully bullets are in next year

I think the reasoning behind aiming for an NBL licence is simple. The crowds they were pulling when they were hosting and winning the championships are gone. People want something new so they left. The days of pulling 1400 members, plus the overhaul of the revamped stadium killed off quite a few seats that were close to the action.

If memory serves me correct, the halycon days spoke of the 3 year plan which was when the former owner who i cant remember his name, but he owned a vineyard or two outside of Geelong said, we have 3 years to get back in. If we dont, then we never will.

The stadium itself is well positioned both near the highway and a railroad, but its a dump. I also fail to see where they will get corporate sponsorship from, given they couldnt get a MAJOR sponsor in the mid 90's which saw them get dumped.

Nice thought, but my former team I barracked for as a kid, wont get a new licence.

The NBL is at a major tipping point.....they only have 8 teams which midterm isn't viable....if Melb/Bris bids don't get ready and approve from 2013/2014 the competition will stagnate and die as it only takes 2 bads season in Townsville or Cairns and they might be in major financial trouble.

I'm all for reducing the salary cap and trying to work at getting Newcastle, Geelong, Hobart, Wellington etc into the league as the league really needs 10/14 teams to make it work long term.

I understand re the TV markets/corporate dollar but we also need teams to play and the NBL really can't be too choosy on the location of the teams in our present state. I think the saying is Beggars cant be choosers

Not that it really matters, but Larry Davidson is from NSW. Goulding is from Tassie. Rhys Martin is indeed from Brisbane and so are Trigger and Martin. 3 players out of a population of 2 million people isn't exactly blowing me away. Aron Baynes was born in NZ yes but grew up in Cairns, therefore he is from NQ as far as his basketball career is concerned.

My point is that NQ has by far the biggest representation in the NBL and Aussie basketball overseas in terms of succesful players per capita of total population. Many, many times the amount of pro players from South East QLD despite a tiny fraction of the overall population.

So tell me again that Townsville and Cairns don't NEED to be in the NBL.

Regional centres are just as important to the NBL as big East Coast cities because you will only get devoted fan bases in places that don't have a combination of NRL/AFL presence. Bris, Syd, Mel all have both.

So bring on Geelong.

West Sydney? Never again. Never. They had great/good/exciting teams and could not sell more than 1000 tickets.

Hobart? Would be cool, but what players want to go and live in Hobart? No offense Hobartians, Adelaide has the same problem ;-)

2nd Melbourne team? Would be huge if it was done right, appealing to all the supporters of the other clubs in Melbourne not named Tigers.

Newcastle? Would LOVE to see the Falcons back in.

Brisbane? Same as above.

Canberra? Again, cool, but just not feasible. Geelong in same boat.

NT? Forget it. Same with 2nd Adelaide team.

2nd NZ team? I don't know enough about NZ basketball, but surely a North Island/South Island rivalry could work positively for the league?

I think we should drop salary cap as well, as Tiger Watcher said.

Anon 662, suggesting Corio Bay will be in NBL is about the same as suggesting Eltham will be there...

I don't think dropping the cap any further is a good idea for quality-of-play reasons. That said, there are obviously teams who don't/can't/won't spend the full cap, which does reduce competiveness somewhat.

On the other end of the scale, I would be interested to know if there is a minimum roster value in place, a la the NBA?

Would help teams like Townsville this year (ie. saving them from themselves -- going cheap early and it costing them wins and bums on seats, and therefore the $$$ that go along with that)

So are we all in agreeance that Singapore Slingers shouldn't be looked at again or until we atleast have 15 thriving teams?

Port Morsby with 300,000 people will get a team in the NBL before the SLingers get another look in

Singapore Slingers should never be looked at again IMO, and by the looks of their website, they still aren't getting any crowds to their games.

I'd like to see 12 teams in 5 years time. Or at least 10 teams by then. Here's my list:

Melbourne Tigers (Big Market)
2nd Melb Team in the form of the SE Melb Magic (Big Market)
Brisbane Bullets (Big Market)
Perth Wildcats (Big Market)*
Sydney Kings (Big Market)

Adelaide 36ers (Mid-Size Market)
Auckland/NZ Breakers (Mid Size Market)
Wellington Team (Mid Size Market)

Cairns Taipans (Small Market)
Townsville Crocs (Small Market)
Geelong Supercats (Small Market)
Wollongong Hawks (Small Market)


12 teams. Thats a fairly even distribution of small to big market teams in cities that want basketball. (basing this on city population and likely TV market)

*Perth is growing and is closer to Brisbane than Adelaide in population so I have them as a big market, rather than a mid-size market.

Well, you are all critical of the management of the NBL now. If some of the suggestions here were accepted you could really go to town on the management because within three years there would be no top of town support at all.

Perth is a big market because of the mining industry thriving and our mega stadium.

If $8.50 pies and $12 hamburgers and $9 beers aren't scaring people off then I think we are a big market and its hard to ignore that we haven't had less than 10,000 to a game this year.

If you were the Supercats and you were trying to market the team to a new market, what demographic would you choose?

At Wildcats games we have grandparents, young men and plenty of young ladies (decked out in club gear) and plenty of families...

The Wildcats have every demographic covered so I know I'm ignorant but why can't the Supercats and every team for that matter get everyone coming to games?

Mining boom over? lol.

If we lower the Salary cap to $750 to $850 we would be more sustainable.....yes we might lose a number of better players but better to have a comp with 10 teams long term than no comp at all.

I think it is great that Geelong, Wellington etc are aiming to get into the NBL as it should be what all major clubs outside of the NBL aspire to. The likes of Newcaslte, Hobart, Darwin etc have the population base so it all comes back to facilities and corporate cash (TV, sponsors etc)

Just a couple of facts about the market or prospects for growth down Geelong way.

1. Manufacturing is slowly dying, but other industries are replacing this, such as education, tourism, various service based industries and major companies are relocating (example TAC).

2. Over the next 5 - 15 years it is expected that the Geelong region will explode by about 70,000 in population due the the Armstong Creek development situated between Geelong and Torquay.

Now whose in that small market place....? Not Geelong folks, check your facts and you will see Geelong is at least in the medium market category!

Fair enough Bear - I'd support that mid-market claim also on the basis that they are close to Melbourne, and not stuck in the remote outback!

Absolutely a key factor, when we look at where Geelong is situated geographically, only an hour from the Melbourne GPO and take into consideration the travel time is 45 minutes (it takes longer to get to Frankston than to Torquay from Melbourne), then the so called market must be seen to extend into Melbourne too.

The NBL should be looked at as a national league, sorry I thought that was what it was? Is this is true to its business plan then it is only the stadium and the revenue that is holding back the Supercats.

1. Stadium can be built with cooperation between the local council, the AFL, the NBL and the Supercats along with business partners.

2. Revenue needs to be backed by TV deals from the NBL, supported by local media, local businesses, the local council and the whole basketball community in the region.

Once the work is done to establish the foundations and all boxes are ticked, then the move towards the NBL and developing (plus importing) a competitive team is the fun bit!

Yup, and I would also like to reply to HO, brother if we are to rely on the past all the time, suggesting Geelong Supercats were on struggle street from day one, in the 1980's then what happened to allow a NZ team into the league and why are they so successful, I didn't see them in the NBL a couple of decades ago?

I will tell you what it is mate, it is exactly what we have down here in Geelong mate:

1. Community support and love of sport
2. Competent business structures and plans
3. Massive junior participation and development

I reckon if the Breakers can do it, Geelong can pretty much do it to, given the right circumstances and time to get it together...

Anon, you are correct about the Arena at Geelong, it would be suitable if it was extended and money spent to increase seating capacity.

The only draw back is that the stadium is now seen as a money making venue by the council and they use it for many other things outside of basketball.

While this is not a problem, it may be the reason they won't spend money on it, not sure...?

Can't wait to see Dane Suttle back in the league. Was a bit of a black hole but pushing 50 he probably passes more now.

Bear,

New Zealand can do it because their owner is mega rich and doesnt care if he loses $3M per year in the process.

Sorry guys, read the other thread, its not about whether the town produces basketballers, its not about whether they can fill a stadium, its not about whether they have a guy with enough cash to pay the bills for the next 20 years.

Its about the league. If the league regionalises, it in turn marginalises its capacity for corporate backing and for FTA TV coverage.

The AFL has two regional market teams. One of those is being built from the ground up by the AFL at the cost of gazzillions over 20 years. The other has a supporter base of something like 500,000 people Australia wide.

The ARL has three regional market teams, in their case in heartland territory. It has a team in Melbourne partly because you need to have a team in the biggest sporting market in Australia.

Basketball has no fixed heartland territory, despite its participant playing strength, because on the whole, the mass participant playing base in Eastern Melbourne will pay for footy games b4 basketball games. There is no where in Australia you could say "here, basketball is the #1 followed sport".

Therefore marketers and TV execs look at the reach of the league. In looking at the reach of the league they could not give a flying frig about 150,000 people in greater Cairns or 300,000 in greater Geelong. These are, by any definition, small markets.

For TV, its just not a big enough market to make a difference, because when you take the 300,000 people out of Geelong, and look at the .3% that might watch the product on TV, we are down to next to nothing.... as we say 3/5 of fuck all...

As I said to you last time Bear, its not anti Geelong. Its not a question of Geelong's competence. its a question of whether Geelong matters to national brand and TV decision makers and sorry, it doesn't...

Correct. Making it even more irrelevant in the Melbourne market for basketball.

V8 Supercars are massive but you wouldn't say that it is #1 sport anywhere but it has been marketed well and brings huge crowds everywhere.

Your #1 comment is still correct though but it's not the end of the road and we should be able to still make inroads but it won't happen with 8 teams!

http://www.resortnews.com.au/industry/154-news-in-brief/1907-v8-supercars-is-the-roi-worth-the-outlay

They have just rushed to sign a TV deal that the industry thinks is a sign they are in some trouble.

Dear HO,

if the Breakers had a team that went 50%, not as successful as they have been, who would give a damn about the National Brand of the NZ Breakers?

It's about success, pure and simple!

Regional, major city or over the dutch mate, makes no difference to the market place if your team is crap!

You have no idea mate, sorry......