And 1 point to boot in tonight's game ... whatever the Blaze are paying this prick, they should halve it, then halve it, then halve it again ...

The guy had talent despite being earthbound and slow. Was once a hard nosed guy who chased rebounds and defended, and could hit the open shot.

Ever since joining the Blaze he has been mailing it in. Pretty much everything you said above.

But this Blaze team as a whole is pretty fucking hateable. Outside of Hoare and Petrie, there isn't a likeable bloke among them.

Agreed, and lol at everyone drinking up the Blaze cool aid in recent weeks ... They're not getting anywhere near a championship ... They're the tin men of the NBL - no heart

lol these two must be sitting next to each other giggling while they post together on a basketball forum...

Now we're laughing at you ...

Aaron Grabau's little brother chimes in with his two cents again...

Regardless of above posts, he is still top 5 Aussie talent in the NBL.

Funny thing is,he burst onto the sceen out of college,getting 20pts 1st game,playing well in sydney then at olympics played some good ball,his roll as the mini vlahov and neilsen was good,rebounds screens hitting jumpers,dlaying good D,

But like someone else saif since tigers he sucks,honestly can't dominate a game with his square up jumper he used t out muscle people and get to hoop now settles for a crap jumper that is a miss,

He come in every season out of shape,don't either do cardio ,conditioning and weights, and joey wright is like he just needs some weeks,nah reason is he is unprofessional that's it,

he did his work in college and early in kings and dragons,now he dose not care, he gets paid per month,he has 2 kids and a partner he is a family man now,he loves goldy weather,he is chilling the good life on goldy.retired waiting for pension day on thurday.

Needs to get off the refs - quit bitching bitch!!

I am a Accountant why?? sorry i am a bad speller haha

Hey.. If he wanted to sign with my favorite NBL team, i'd still welcome him with open arms. I'm sure 99% of you would as well.

Crocs City: Just wondering if you have had bad days at work where you could do no right. I wouldn't say he doesn't care. Basketball is his Job, not life. Family is much more important, esp his kids.

Anon: Name 5 Aussie players better than Worthington

Regardless he has an NBL ring, is an olympian, and D2 college player of the year.

Regardless of what you think of him he is still an All star in the NBL.

Lol @ thinking wagstaff, Crawford and knight have had better whole seasons. I guess you forgot to factor in when those players had form slumps or are you only remembering worthos bad games? Hypocrisy.

Are you kidding? Crawford's season has been career best and much better than Wortho's...

I would rather Knight on my team also at this point.

Every player has had ups and downs this year. Teams seem to have done a very good job of scouting guys who are playing well.

Wortho's downs have been pretty down the past three years though, certainly not one of the best players in the league in that period. Glad to seem him playing hard and finding form recently.

I hate the Blaze. Something about them just rubs me up the wrong way!

Hmmm Lets see.

Mark Worthington. 15ppg, 6.4rpg, 1.6apg 1spg and just under 1bpg.

Gibson: 12.2ppg 4.3rpg 4.6apg 1.2spg

Martin: 7.2ppg 6.0rpg 3.7apg 2.3spg and just under 1bpg

Knight: 10.5ppg 5.5rpg 1.4apg with not much else defensively

Crawford: 14.3ppg 3.4rpg 1.6apg 1.2spg

Holmes: 11.3ppg 9.3rpg 2.2apg with not much else defensively. (one of his best years in the NBL)

Wagstaff: 11.6ppg 3.6rpg 1.3apg with not much defensively

Redhage:13.5ppg 4.3rpg 2.8apg with not much else

Khazzouh: 16.3ppg 11.0rpg 1.7apg 2.1bpg (best player on this list, and in the NBL)

Johnson:16.6 7.8rpg 1.6apg 1.1bpg (notorious stat patter on a horrendous team)

Bruce: 13.9ppg 2.6rpg 4.4apg with not much else defensively

Tragardth: 17.0ppg 5.5rpg 1.5apg (one of the WORST defenders in the league)

Fellas, there are the facts. Can't see 5 players on this list better than Wortho, and the STATS back up what I'm saying. He does a little bit of everything. The only player I would take before him without thinking would be Khazzouh.

Lets not all forget the Blaze are a winning team and in the playoff hunt, that would be why I would discount Johnsons stats. On a winning team no way he averages those numbers. I would agree Knights numbers take a hit being on such a deep team, along with possibly a couple of other Wildcats. Debatable.


Numbers don't lie gents. Wortho is a top 5 AUSSIE talent in the NBL. Regardless of him being a wanker or not. (or regardless of his comments about Adelaide, which I'm sure has a lot of you up in arms)

I notice you didnt mention Wortho's shooting percentage in the first two months of the year, where he cost his team night after night by taking bad shots and way too many shots.

Putting out per game scoring stats etc is a pretty weak argument. I would say Wortho would have struggled to be top 10 Aussies the first half of the year but has been top three in the second half. Not sure whether that puts him top five overall - he'd be around the mark.

Khazzouh is the exact opposite, great first half poor second half, and at this very moment isnt in the top 10 players in the NBL.

I love your comment that Knight doesnt have much else defensively! I am sure his opponents would disagree with that!

Mentioning those 'not much else' was strictly referring to stats. BPG AND SPG. Obviously he a great big defender in the NBL and pretty smart with taking charges. I am however sure most oppenents would also put Wortho in their top 5 Aussie players in the NBL.

Well luckily an NBL season is not two months long. My argument is stats. FACTS to have put in front of your nose. Where are your facts? A bad month, or week, thats all you have?

Ask Most coaches in the NBL as ask them who their first pick would be if they had a choice out of all current NBL players. KHAZZOUH would win unanimously.They wouldn't say, well hang on he had a bad month, or back in september in preseason he had 4 games in a row which were not great!

It comes down to what I argued initially, he is a top 5 Aussie in the NBL.
Lets agree to disagree even though your facts are flawed.

I would love to see Worthington in a Breakers jersey.

Anyone who has been involved in basketball at a high level can tell you that stats, although helpful, are not the be all and end all. There are things players do that are integral to the success of the team that aren't recorded by stats.

Wortho has always annoyed me and he is frankly a bit of a sniper. But I think we're all missing the real issue which is it's concerning for basketball in Australia that his stats are in the top 10.

Atleast we've got one guy in Average OKKA who actually watches basketball and doesn't just form their opinions on how much they like a guy.

The stats you are referring to are archaic simple Per Game numbers, that in no way reflect how effective a player he is on the floor.

The guys you are saying are rubbish defenders play on the best defensive team in the league, so you have no credibility there.

I'll give you some FACTS.

Worthington was once one of the best players in this country.

He is out of shape and slow as shit.

He can no longer shoot at an elite level.

He takes bad shots. Which leads me to my next point:

He is taking fewer shots in the paint than he ever has (ie. effective, efficient shots).

He is not rebounding the ball well enough for a guy of his size and style of game.

He is easily rattled and has a weak mind, where once he was a "tough" guy who would get under OPPONENT's skins.

I'd like him on my team, but not for the price that the Blaze is paying him. Top 5? Not any more. Top ten? Maybe.

Also, during the second half of the Townsville game, if you were WATCHING it, Ingles13, Worthington was in a blind rage and completely out of it psychologically. He actually looked like he was going to start crying during points of the game, absolutely insane.

Not the kind of effort you'd expect from a top 5 player.

Who s the best player in the League Mick, and may I ask who your fav team is?

Might I add, our league is in big trouble. You just sold me Worthington as one of the worst players in the League, or at least the worst starter in the NBL. You then say he is maybe top 10. Well my boy, the NBL must have completely gone to shit by your logic.

You have troubles with reading comprehension so I'll make it clearer for you: Worthington is in the upper echelon of NBL players, but at present, is not in the top 5, due to his complacency, attitude, general laziness especially on D, and career lows across the board.

My favourite team has nothing to do with this discussion, however if I were going to start an NBL franchise tomorrow I would love to have Worthington in my starting five, but not as the "franchise player".

At this point I'd definitely take Abercrombie ahead of him as a local 3/4.

For your other question: the best player in the league right now is Cedric Jackson and it would be very difficult for anyone to argue otherwise. And alluding to your earlier point, I would certainly not start my franchise with Kazzouh if Luke Neville were available. I value defense and subsequently wins above all else.

Last time I checked Abercrombie wasn't an Aussie. I guess you should try that reading comprehension you preach.

You taking Neville over Khazzouh says something. Neville has had consistency problems throughout his WHOLE career, including College. Motivation problems when with the Tigers, stemming all the way back to College also. At time goes missing out there (7 foot 1 and goes missing in the NBL)

7 1 with that skill set and can't start in the NBL doesn't send alarm bells?
If it wasn't for Bevo being the great coach and no nonsense persona that he is, it would be very very interesting. He keeps Neville in check.

Before this turns into a insult at one another thread, your opinion wins (in your mind) and my opinion wins in my mind.

Still wouldn't mind your list of current top 5 Aussie talent in the NBL though, albeit for a little chuckle.

Well, Wortho averaged 14p at 38% across the first 11 games, but took over 12 shots per game, around 20% of the Blaze's total at such a poor percentage. He had 16 assists and 17 turnovers.

Offensively he was a real liability in a number of games. In fact, he has had 11 games where he has shot below 40%, but taken 11-12 shots in those games. Not surprisingly, the Blaze are 5-6 in those and 10-4 in others.

When he plays his role as part of the team he is a super player, when he mistakes himself for an offensive force he often detracts from his team, and that has been shown plenty of times over the past three seasons.

Since new year's, with the exception of a couple of games he has been excellent, scoring at a high percentage within the offence. It's no surprise that when he and Deleon started playing their roles the Blaze started winning, nor that when they reverted to old habits in the second half on Saturday the team imploded.

So I stand by my assessment that the first half of the year he was not a top five Aussie, and since then he clearly is and possibly number one.

I dont think looking at reputations of guys like Khazzouh and Worthington is the best way to assess their play. Of course coaches would sign them because of what they can do, but that doesnt mean they have been doing it consistently.

Over the season I would say Gibson, Tragardh and probably Martin have made bigger contributions to their team, Crawford, Khazzouh, Holmes and maybe Wagstaff would be similar.

Abercrombie is a local player by the NBL's definition.

Pretty much agree with Paul's assessment above.

All of Wortho's faults this season have been in his head (ie. bad shot selection, getting rattled by trash talk, trash-talking too much himself, arguing with refs, arguing with teammates) and effort areas (not chasing down as many rebounds as he should, not rotating quick enough on D).

Dude needs to see a sports psychologist before the Olympics because we really need him to be an enforcer out there due to most of our guys being a little, ahem, soft...

"7 1 with that skill set and can't start in the NBL doesn't send alarm bells?"

Schenscher didn't start for Perth also if I remember correctly or at least played similar minutes to Nevill. It's not that they don't have the ability to start but rather that Perth prefers to run with a smaller line up.

Never said Abercrombie wasn't, just reinforced that my first post here said AUSSIE players. Hopefully you can figure out the rest.


So Paul, overall for the Season, he would be top 5 correct? If you have him at possibly number 1 now, but a 7,8,9 or 10 earlier, the law of averages would imply he is OVERALL a TOP 5 player?

This is all I have implied, and to be honest I'm not a huge Wortho fan. But when you get people saying he is a wanker and so on and that he sucks, I had to chime in. By Mick and Pauls standards he is having his worst NBL year of his career, yet he still one of the top Aussie performers in the NBL. Period.

Mick, waiting for your reply to Neville vs Khazzouh? I want to have a giggle before I leave work for the arvo.

And FWIW Okka, the top handful of Aussie guys in the NBL, as I see it are below. I think the talent spread across these guys is way too close to produce a top 5 in order. However to me, Wortho sits just outsdide the top 5, simply because of wherever the hell his head is at.

Brad Robbins
Matt Knight
Anthony Petrie
Adam Gibson
Cameron Tragardh
Damien Martin
Peter Crawford
Julian Khazzouh
Jacob Holmes
Jesse Wagstaff
Mark Worthington
Luke Schenscher
Luke Neville
Ian Crosswhite (some people may baulk at this but he has been the anchor of the Cairns defense that has seen back-to-back playoff appearances with severely limited rosters "on paper", assuming Cairns make it again this year. I value him.)

What about Thomas Abercrombie???? :) How could you miss him?

I didn't say Neville was a better player than Khazzouh, I said I'd take him first if I were to build an NBL team, and he's a better defender/lane clogger.

The league is too quick these days for you to build an offense around a traditional centre the way Sydney are doing. Best bet is to grab a big fella that is a good passer, defender, and rebounder and save the $$$, or do what Townsville do and run the offense through the centre, but without him being the scoring focus.

As I mentioned before it's all about cost vs. actual production, and I don't think having Khazzouh lead your team to 6th place on a max salary is justified.

Brad Robbins, along with Martin, is the best on ball defender in the league.

Have you seen opposing PGs try to deal with Perth? The dude scares the shit out of them.

Yes and Dillon Boucher is the best charge taker in the league, surely he should be in your top 15?

You clearly don't value defense, so your and my idea of the league's best players are going to be diametrically opposed.

Obviously saying Bowen is, or ever was, better than Kobe is stupid.

Making the case for Robbins being in the top 15 or so of NBL players is obvious to me. I'm not saying he's better than Wortho, and he's obviously on the lower end of this loose list, but he makes any team instantly a ladder rung better.

Micks Dream NBL Team

Robbins
Martin
Crosswhite/Neville
Boucher
Knight

They would hold you to 50ppg.
But only score 40 themselves.

Exciting BBALL!!!!!

If you can make for a better set of players than what I listed, go for it, I'm willing to listen.

You win. That team would be a dynasty!

Schenscher was the starting centre on the Wildcats 2010 championship team.

Okay fair enough but my point still stands as Perth prefer to run small with Nevill having similar numbers to Schenscher so to me whether he starts or not does not indicate his true value in this league.

Schenscher 2010 23mpg, 10ppg, 6rpg
Nevill 2012 19mpg, 9ppg, 5rpg

The problem with people like you is you are incapable of discussion, only interrogative argument.

Every player included above is for a different, unique reason. Trigger cannot defend but makes the cut because of his offensive arsenal.

Guys like Crosswhite and Robbins make my list because they are key components of the league's two best defenses.

The same way you could make the case for Joakim Noah or Andrew Bogut being in the discussion of the top players at their position in the NBA, despite not having much of an offensive game.

He clearly is, and a direct quote from Mick to back up Robbo argument.

"Have you seen opposing PGs try to deal with Perth? "

I particular like this part:

"The dude scares the shit out of them"

Brad Robbins: Leading the league in scares the shit of them PPG.

Interrogative argument you say?

Hmm you have said I have no credibility because I stated players who simply had no defensive stats (never said they were bad defenders)
You have also claimed I can't comprehend what Im reading.
Yes, and I'm the interrogative one. Well done.

Over it Mick, you win well done. Got me through a day work with some massive laughs! Thanks.

If you don't think intimidation factor / forced turnovers are arguments for a players' defensive capablities than you're dumber than I thought.

Name three better PGs or combo guards in this league that should be above him?

Wonder if this is vintage Joey shifting blame to his players or a coy "Phil Jackson-esque" ploy to get him motivated?

I suppose we'll see.

While the bad offensive output is one thing, and may have been outside of his control (ie. just an off night), it was a pretty big brain-fart on that play to gift the game and the season series to the one team that you will be most likely tied with at the end of the season. Not something you'd likely see any other top tier player do.

Cedric Jackson
Jamar Wilson
Damian Martin
Aaron Bruce
Eddie Gill
Adam Gibson
Adris Deleon

Should I keep going?

ahaha anon you beat me to it, I just didn't have all day to list every guard in the league, well, pretty much.

@ Mick

There are a lot more than 3 PG's / Combo Guards in the league better than Robbins.

Import
Jackson
Wilson
Lisch
Gill
Deleon
Ubaka
C. Warren
Allen

Aussies
D. Martin
Gibson
Bruton
Corletto
Dillon
Bruce
Madgen
R. Martin
Crosswell

Hey average who do you follow?
On what basis do you say that Johnson pads his stats?
I haven't missed a home game this year and I would swear that DJ gets most of his points in the first half of games. Hardly a scenario of a stat padder.

As for Worthington, he is at his most productive when he is allowed to get away with little hits and illegal actions. Hence his propensity to spit the dummy when everything is not going his way.

I don't think you can quote stats when it comes to Robbins.
Offensively he is obviously very limited. Defensively he is probably only behind Martin in the league.
Is he top 15 in the league overall? No chance, but like Darren Ng, he's extremely good at what he's paid to do.
Worthington shits all over him as an overall basketballer though which is the argument.

Wow this thread got 70 hits - Wortho must be a tool!!

Hold up hold up hold up...

We're calling Nevill a good defender?

:O

Offensively he is obviously very limited. Defensively he is probably only behind Martin in the league.

Cedric Jackson>those guys

"By Mick and Pauls standards he is having his worst NBL year of his career"

Average OKKA, show me where I said that? Ive been pretty clear, very poor first half, excellent second half = borderline top five this year.

As for Brad Robbins, he is a very valuable player unless youre somoene who watches only the offensive end.

Let's have a look when he matched up on Patty Mills:

Robbins 13p on 5/12, 8r, 5a, 2s, 4to in 23mins
Mills 6p on 2/7, 3r, 6a, 1s, 1to in 33mins

Mills is clearly a world class player, yet Robbins clearly took the points in their match-up. Week after week he throws other teams out of their offence and keeps the Cats in theirs.

His per 40minute stats this season are 15p at 44%, 6r, 5a, 3s and 3to. That aint no scrub.

Having said all that, I wouldnt put him in the top bracket of Aussies, sorry Mick.

Good to see Mark "the cancer" Worthington doing his best to screw his own team again today ... Seriously the Blaze should cut his sorry ass right now ..