Refs do need to work together to control the game. When a team knows one ref is not going to call things, the game goes south pretty quickly. Fouls are very rarely called on aggressive team at home.

Last round the foul count in my game was us 4, them 18. It should have been more. They slapped the ball carrier senseless, grabbed the rebounders, every penetration was fouled, and every fast break was a reach from behind. When the guard pelvic thrusts the ball carrier in a simulated sex attack without repercussion, that is bad umpiring. 18 fouls was a flattering foul count.

Some aggression is good, but unfortunately, poor umpiring rewards over aggressive teams who play the man and not the ball.

Over It

Below is the two person mechanics guide which shows areas of responsibility in 2 person mechanics. This will give you and insight into referees areas of responsibility. Starts page 17.

http://www.fiba.com/downloads/Rules/2010/TwoPersonOfficiating2010.pdf

748 good call, or over it to you want both referees watching the area of where the ball is and then have nobody watching the rest of play.

just because it says there is an area of responsibility for each ref, IF YOU SEE THE FOUL BLOW YOUR GOD DAM WHISTLE!!!!

Must be nbl refs!!!

751 agreed if you see it call it no problem. What i'm suggesting is if you understand where each ref is looking on any given play you will know which one you should query on the call. If you look at the break up of the court for referees there is no point abusing the trail official for a missed call in Area 4 because he isnt looking there. It would be like abusing the centre who is in the front court because the guard traveled in the back court.

If you see it call it is the right way to go but if I'm not looking there I cant call it can i.

callitanyway +1

Had nearly this exact same situation happen to me a few months back.

I knew the play the opposition was running, and had the trail official right in front me. I told him who was going to foul, and where they were going to foul (was a moving screen)

The result, was my player got whacked illegally. Stoppage of play. Ref turns around to me and says, I saw it, I know it's a foul, but you know I can't call it.

I'm ok with refs not looking in areas where they shouldn't be looking, and consequently not seeing things. But if you see it, and you 100% know it's a foul, I'd prefer the right call be made, regardless of areas and responsibility.

"At these levels, if a referee is seen calling out of their area, regardless of whether it is right (unless absolutley blantant), they will often be the one whom cops a spray after the game from the referee evaluators, as this demonstrates a lack of trust and team work."

So we are better off getting it WRONG for not trusting the other ref who has made a wrong decision(or non-decision)? No accountability for making mistakes, but blasted for trying to correct such mistakes?
WOW. No wonder that there is such low confidence in and respect for referees getting the job done correctly and not impacting on games if this is the gospel being spouted. Referee evaluators covering up accountability for wrong calls by giving a spray to the referee who got it right? In the real world, any business working to such an environment would not be in business for long!

I think you will find the "spray" only relates to 50/50 marginal calls not the big and bold obvious ones that everyone in the venue sees. Everyone I think agrees that the obvious fouls must be called whether they are in your primary area or not, I dont think any referee or referee coach would argue against this. It's more around the 50/50 call out of area or a call from a bad position out of area or a call out of the referees periphery that they thought they saw but didnt see the whole play etc

The other issue here is referees trotting out the old saying "not in my area". We all know its a cop out and usually, note the word usually, its trotted out by less experienced officials who dont have the courage to make a call.

If only they didn't guess when it is their area of responsibility and they don't see anything. Sometimes there actually isn't anything.

Call it as you see it eliminates potential for abuse from the side lines which as ugly as it is, is compounded by guessing and no calls.

Might earn some respect. Better to have respect than false confidence.

great,

that way it will never get better.

anon do you really believe refs get better because a coach yells at them? Or because of threads like this?

has anyone gotten better with no accountability.

At least there is a chance if something is done rathre than nothing.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

That is exactly what has been happening in referee education for decades.

Accountability is the only thing that will change it.

Ok then what I think is a fair question......What accountability do you want at the junior level? Most kids referee at the junior level for pocket money, how do you want to hold them accountable? Knowing that retention even now is extremely difficult for the simple example above of constant abuse.

Because coaches yell at them that doesn't equate to accountability.

And you're correct. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Another reason why coaches should stop.

Anon where has anyone said that coaches yelling at referees = accoutability. Nowhere - and typically you lose sight of the point made to "defend all refereeing". That is the problem, the blind blinkers to defend all at the expense of holding referees to any sort of standards. Accountability is non-existant, partially because of the problem mentioned of a lack of numbers. BUT there has to be repercussions - if a referee evaluator bakes the guy calling out of his zone the correct call instead of the guy who fluffed the call in his zone because it's "showing up" the other referee - then we have a real problem. Because you are penalising a RIGHT call over a WRONG (in this instance non-) call. And you wonder why there is so little faith put in referees in this state in particular - where standards are MILES behind those in Victoria.

Anon 878, where has it ever been said that the guy who calls the right call out of area is the only guy to get yelled at by a ref coach for want of a better term? I can assure you the ref who missed the call in their primary area gets a good talking to around why they didnt make the call. And there are times when the referee calling out of area doesnt get yelled at because they were the only one who could see the play eg the centre when the play comes towards them in the form of a hooking foul for instance. But generally unless the ref calling out of area can explain why they were looking there they will get marked down. As stated above ball watching causes greater issues such as missed of ball contact which can lead to bigger things.

"But generally unless the ref calling out of area can explain why they were looking there they will get marked down."

So again, the guy who makes the RIGHT call gets punished. And the fact you can't see this as a problem goes a long way to explaining why reffing is in it's current state.

"And there are times when the referee calling out of area doesnt get yelled at because they were the only one who could see the play eg the centre when the play comes towards them in the form of a hooking foul for instance."

But hold on, aren't they meant to be looking off-ball?? So how can it be alright in "some" situations?

I'd say punishing right calls over wrong calls over semantics causes greater issues.

892 893 if you had a clue about reffing it wouldnt be so difficult for you. If there is no one in the primary area of an official, in the case the example was the centre he/she would be looking directly into area 5. If the post moved into the middle of the key and hooked his opponent he would be coming directly at the centre. Have we not said call the OBVIOUS. This would be obvious to the centre who is waiting for the play or player to come into his primary. We are talking obvious calls not a 50/50 hand check on the other sideline! If your going to be a negative tool go away. If you have something to contribute that is positive and constructive then please add it.

If the centre is looking at the play on the very opposite sideline I dont care if he gets the call right. What is going on in his/her primary area? If all 3 or even 2 refs are watching the ball totally then there are going to more complaints than ever before.

Everyone is advocating if it's obvious and you see it call it. That isnt a hard concept to grasp for anyone. But we are generally talking about taking responsibility for your own areas. There will be times a referee gets caught out of position, its the nature of 10 players in a confined area who are generally bigger in size than the referee. These are the situations where referees must step in and help out for calls in the shared area or in the obvious cases out of area but if you were to map a game of basketball most calls occur inside the 3 point arc and in most of these cases it is in a shared area in 3 person officating.

Coaches tell because of the lack of accountability. A resultant.

If the Defs were held accountable, coaches wouldn't need to yell.

Oh sorry how silly of me because the coaches are never fuelled by emotion!!!! Next time in the an NBL game when two volatile coaches match up against each other, let's say Gleeson v Wright. I bet you the one that is bitching the most..........is the one thats losing! their doing everything they can ti gain an advantage, their working the refs to get a call etc At every level of the game the coach bitching the most is "generally" the coach who is losing.... that's a fact.

The only one getting emotional in this thread however appears to be you defending all things referees! Everyone else has done a great job in not naming and bagging referees but whether they generally are accountable for getting decisions CORRECT, which it appears they aren't, if they are marked down for getting calls right.

"I dont care if he gets the call right."

And that is the problem!

Yet you wonder why coaches/players may get fired up when a referee doesn't even care if the call is correct, as long as he supports his fellow ref and is standing in the right spot?

refs get paid don't hey on Friday's pretty sure coaches don't, not my call = cop out and don't want to take responsibility for my actions. Try doing that in the work place!

925 pity you couldnt take that comment in context of the ball being on the furthest side of the court. Thanks for playing.

anon #909,

Thats because the refs are picking and choosing ehich calls they make. All coaches work the refs in different ways because they know that the refs are trying to "manage the game" rather than call it even.

The original post was regarding a Firday night game where the probably senior/better refs just used a cop out rather than getting the game called fair and square as best it can be.

They are both problems. That need fixing.