Beattie and Townsend only did 2 games each in the WNBL last season so it's not like they worked every round and are now lost to the WNBL.

NBL games are signifcantly harder to referee so your best officials do these game - case and point!

If WNBL was a better standard then you would get the best referees!

Ok a few things here...

The WNBL dont have the money to pay the same amount as the NBL. For a guesstimate your looking at $150 top $$$ in the WNBL compared to $600 in the NBL. NBL have a travel budget the WNBL welllll dont!

ANON12:
Let's also be honest with the fact that some senior officials do not want to referee WNBL games due to the game payments and the perceived lack of standard of the WNBL

This is slightly a load of crap. All the Top referees (top 10) Referee in their state leagues in the off-season for less than what they would get for a WNBL game. Game payments have nothing to do with it, it's around the rostering. That is all.

I think I could safely say that the top 10 NBL officials havent refereed WNBL for at least 10 years, some even longer.

The problem around giving the top NBL guys games is A) they are generally rostered on NBL and B) they are taking games away from developing referees. Its a bit of chicken and egg. How do you show development pathways if you only let the same people referee both leagues???

Not Happy Jan:

Your comment around 9 officials is valid and I totally agree. The issue is availability. Its not just about how much is paid but it revolves around things such as family life, work life balance and the days of people only working monday to friday are gone. Some referees fulltime employment includes weekend work etc and if it comes to a full-time wage or a WNBL payment well only 1 is going to pay the mortgage and the other is beer money.

I say good on you Karen for having the guts to say anything in a league where refs get even! They have favourites and think its OK to even up games.

Just call the fouls and get on with it! I don't go to watch them!

I think Karen's issues relate mainly to the NSW Refs and maybe SA refs, the Vic and QLD panel officials are allot better, in my honest opinion i think the std of reffing has been pretty good this year, especially in Victoria but there are issues with NSW no doubt.

Also i dont think Karen has done herself any Favours carrying on like that in public. The Refs remember... Also ive watched the things she complains about and i think she has a poor read on the game at times.

anon 014, clearly your from Victoria and those rose coloured glasses your wearing are a bit smudged this season. The standard is the same across all states more or less.

@ Not Happy, if youre going to name people atleast get a clue about what youre saying, Kelly and Andreola are 2 of the most experienced competent officials on the WNBL panel, both rate very well in game assesments too. So maybe you have a grudge or something but those 2 would amongst the last dropped, there are allot worse going around than those 2.

@ Not happy, you are most definately entitled to an opinion but the fact you use TV coverage to rate officials is flawed to begin with as you get a totally different view from high up the stands to what the Refs see for starters. Banik shouldnt be doing NBL using your logic because he's no better than Andreola or Kelly, you can argue all you like but they all rank roughly the same.
Bottom line is id take any of the victorian NBL/WNBL panel barring the 3 new comers on one of my games over 80% of the rest of the countrys panel.

Anon055, i gather your anon051 as well. I agree Kelly is competent and deserved to go to WNBL panel 1 this year. But I cannot agree with your love for Andreola. If she was so experienced and in your words one of the last dropped why after approx 15+ years is she still on the lowest panel???? If she was as "good" as you proclaim after all this Time why is she STILL on panel 3???

I think the fact that the person who held a grudge against her and held her back deliberay got sacked probably answers that question.

You might want to get your facts straight first. Said person was informed they were no longer required at the NBL level and thus quit the WNBL role taking his bat and ball with him! You might want to keep up with the things that actually occurred.

Interesting that the same referee is still panel 3 under new management and beyond mid-season review point, plus ranked 9th in the VBRA rankings but couldn't get a men's final in either Big V or SEABL.

Seems to be a pattern there.

Yet got the women's GF?????!!!! Lol which GF did banik get? Oh that's right none. Looked like a nervous kid on the conf final. Everyone knows she's been held back, funnily enough under the new fairer system she's suddenly getting the same marks as panel 1's.. Wow what a surprise. Won't be long till things are corrected.

Your "version" of events about pt's demise are spin at best.

Go ask anyone in NSW, NBL panel, Lorraine Landon if you will!!! I'm not the one in fantasy land! Wow SEABL womens Final. Awesome, with a newly promoted panel 2 in Chapman. Might tell you where it sits in the scheme of things as the last 3 were, Andreola, CHapman and Battye a panel 3!!!! If you knew anything about the system once your in the men's pool you don't drop back to the women's section once your out of selection! Please keep up will you .

Clearly you don't have a copy of the email the ex-commissioner sent to both Panels dated 29/8/11 outlining how in the interest of consistent referee development he had no option but to tender his resignation.

Don't you have that?? But your so well informed!!!

LOL yes ive read that email, it read like a bitchy face saving swipe at BA.
Either way to say she isnt good or experienced enough to ref WNBL well is a huge load of POO.

Every league that hasn't advanced her can't be wrong!

Clearly you haven't seen the WNBL T & D where she features often.

Your crush is cute though.

Crush.. grow up, how do you advance past panel 1 on the state panel? FIBA license??

This is sounding more like a personal gripe and jealousy than anything accurate.

Lets leave the personal BS to one side and stick to the topic.

Earle is not a snr official, its his first year, along with Clarke.
There are 4 current panel officials who are either injured, over weight and unfit or wont make themselves avaliable regularly. Earle, Dyson and Clarke got a look in because of this.

Its hardly personal. Neither SEABL or Big V used her on Men says something. The fact SEABL used someone who didn't pass the fitness test ahead of her might also say something.

The fact Big V appointed Chris Clarke and Troy Earle to their championship mens game ranked 11 & 12 also says plenty. Sorry.

Im not dissagreeing that Banik, Reid and Kirsten (Tim Mils too) should be reffing WNBL, Banik still predominantly does.
I just find it rediculous that some think Andreola isnt good enough to ref WNBL even with those guys on the panel. She is clearly in my and many others opininons a very good ref who is also 1 of only about 20 good enough to be FIBA official. That's all im saying.

Have a look at the entire Australian FIBA panel. There are plenty there who shouldn't be and there are plenty there who have never had an appointment O/S and never will.

Ok, talk about FIBA and International appoitments? Amongst many trips she was the No1 ranked womans official at the Asian Games judged by Lubo no less, amongst officials with Olympic Games experience too 2 years ago, Got the Womens Gold medal game as Referee. Cant be too bad a ref if the head of Fiba approved.

Earle, Clarke & O'Shea came on from Victoria whilst Boyd and Manhire are inactive.

Banik, Kelly and Knight are Panel 1's, Spain and Manhire are the panel 2's and the rest are panel 3. Andreola or Dyson would be the the 2 longest serving on WNBL and both are panel 3.

Kirsten and Mills have not refereed WNBL for approx 2 and 4 years respectively. Reid was removed from the panel this year after moving to panel 2 on the NBL. That leaves Hunt and Aylen and a search of WNBL games records shows Hunt has refereed 41 WNBL games compared to 900+ NBL and Aylen 22 compared to 300+ NBL.

Interesting that these stats are from the end of 2010 and Reid who had a relatively short time on WNBL had 67 games compared to Andreola's 80.

Just some stats to enlighten debate.

Well considering the Asian games are run 4 yearly and the last one was in 2010 you might want to check your facts.

The Gold Medal game for Women was played between Korea and China. The Referees for that were:

Chernova - Russia
Yodsint - Thailand
Durairaju - India

In 2006 the 15th Asian games they still used 2 person officiating and the final was refereed by:

Julien - France
Townsend - Canada

Also comparing FIBA's from non-powerhouse countries is fraught with danger as we all remember Gen's from India who came highly regarded from India (did the Commonwealth games) and we all know how well he did in the big V

East Asian Games 2009..... Go check again.

In any event now youre clutching at straws...

Just going by what you typed

You dont believe me? What about Semi final at U23 Worlds?

And since? Senior worlds? Junior Worlds???????? Just wondering because she made such a good impression on Mr Lubo that she got another gig where?

Was on standby just recently for another worlds gig pending someone passing or failing a fitness test. You mentioned not doing mens finals, WRONG again, did BigV mens last year but got injured in the semi. From memory on Seabl site Did Mens GF with Arnold in 2006 or 7. Missed finals in 08 and 09 due to FIBA commitments at the same time as Seabl, again from memory ranked 2 and 3 for a few years in Vic only a few years ago, anyone who ranks in top 10 in Vic is a damn good ref.

Please don't live in the past. We are talking 2011! She got outranked by Boyd, Oshea and Ron Clarke!

Im just don't understand why if she impressed so much why she wouldn't have been selected rather than a convenient standby? As standby's aren't ever announced its an interesting card to throw.

You might want to pick which worlds your talking about a bit better also

This rhetoric is great to but she will be gone in 2 years. From all levels except maybe "ABA Women". You can count on it

Plotting get demise are you? Lol, you sound bitter. While she keeps getting excellent assessments the league need as many officials with her experience as they can get.

Agree Really, sad thing is the knockers here are most likely panel officials who referee with these people, quite sad and pathetic how they backstab their co workers.

Hasn't had an excellent assignment for a while and won't again. Wont do do WNBL finals, as stated will get few if any Big V SEABL men's games (similar to the second half of the 2011 season) and knowing the powers that be won't get nominated out of Victoria in 2012. Wont go to a senior worlds and i doubt will go O/S ever again and will as stated be gone from elite within 2. Nothing to do with me, you can just see from the last 2 years the move is away. Im nobody so i have no say. Its an opinion, just like everyone i have my own.

Bitter. That's funny. Never refereed a game in my life, but my housemates live the shit. I couldn't care less if she was the queen of england. I just love how 1 or 2 people run to her defence in every online thread and the stats, rankings etc don't lie! The facts and only the facts are 2 referees who ranked below her referee a Mens ABA final ahead of her! Clearly not as highly thought of by management as you!

Really - they only call what they feel like, players get bashed and injured. I don't come to watch them! The same clowns have been critiquing them forever and they don't get any better i think they are worse and as for Kelly puuuullllllease?

The point being made in the know was not Men umpiring Women at the world champs etc it was stating the reverse happens in Netball. The best umpires umpire the womens competition which is the elite. The next best umpires work in the the Mens netball comp as it is the second tier. That was the point the poster was making.

Lets put it in a basketball sense, If you had one basketball referee and you offered them do you want to referee the Men's Worlds or the Women's Worlds which do you think they would take?....... Men's every day of the week.

If you had the same situation in the Netball the Umpire would take the Women's every day of the week.

Their was no suggestion the Men's netball Worlds wasnt elite, it's just a tier below the Women's competition if your looking at it from a structure point of view!

No different if you scale it back to national competition formats like the NBL/WNBL or the ANZ Championship / Men's Easter National Championship. Your best basketball referees are going to want to do NBL before WNBL and your best netball umpires are going to want to do the ANZ over the Men's national tournament.

imonawinner i totally agree, its quite sad to read some of the rubbish being said about a very good person on here who works very hard and give back so much at grass roots level for free and are also a very successful ref in their own right.

Someone here clearly has a spiteful grudge and its sad and pathetic of them to air it here anonymously and every time she is mentioned on forums, although it isn't hard to work out what and whos behind it..

I think if anything should come out of Dalton's outburst it should probably be a working party to look at the make up of the National Panel as a whole and how both leagues are rostered. It could be possible seeing both leagues are managed by the one person that once the NBL games are appointed, the remaining referees are then available for WNBL appointments. If you write into policy that there still has to be room for development of officials especially at the lower end of the WNBL its possible you could kill 2 ducks with one brick.

Reduce the size of the entire national panel and make it more workable with an emphasis on getting up and coming referees opportunities to ref with more experienced people and greater frequency of appointments for all. Currently as previously stated there are anywhere between 10-17 referees idle from the NBL any given round (accounting for unavailablity etc) Drop a large portion of them back to WNBL, mix them with a senior WNBL referee (Panel 1) and a less experienced WNBL referee and you might be able to increase the standard of the refereeing on games plus help deliver development and experience to a referee who has the potential to have a future. Hopefully it will also increase the frequency of games referees are appointed to which again as previously discussed can on help consistency. Just my 5 bob worth

Multiple personalities ariel?

Maybe Karen needs to go to Marion and then she may realize how great she's got it
Better umpires and court superviser can be found in an Indonesian table tennis ball show

Yeah right, where did you hear that?