to answer the Q in the title... yes.

NBL teams avg 15 turnovers a game which means for each player 3 turnovers are committed

I never knew that only 5 players play in a game. There is subs so its more like a player gives up 2 turnovers on average. So the refs make more mistakes than the players.

you must be a ref to come up with that and one that has too much time on their hands at that. Its probably the way you ref as well - all about yourself

Yes, they really are.

The only way they'll get better is if they actually Ref more which includes being forced to Ref ABA over winter... Allot of the NBL refs are lucky to do 10-15 games in total A YEAR... Its not hard to see why you get some rustiness and erratic calls from time to time. Personally i don't think they're too bad but its difficult to expect them to be at their absolute best when they're not consistently practicing and using their skills week in week out. You certainly couldn't be at your best as a player if you only played 10 - 15 games a year.

Just to compare the elite players don't play in the ABA in the off-season. Generally the guys from 8-12 do. In most states the panel 3 refs do a full season, panel 2's ref a little less and panel 1's generally do their minimum required. Refs in a way are like players, you can't ref all year you get burnt out and stale!

If anything needs to occur is the leagues need to go back to the same season so that when they aren't rostered to NBL they can go back and ref quality men's games. Currently there is only WNBL to fall back in and not many NBL refs are on both panels.

The main problem is you have 33 refs in the panel and only 15 can work each round, this round only 12! So usually 18 are a round aren't reffing, that's the problem.

Yes the elite players only play 25-30 games a year over 6 months but they train on court 3-4 times a week too... That's about 110-140 on court sessions a season practicing/ utilizing and refining their skills V reffing once a week, fortnight/ or a month for some, them for some a 5 month break... I cant see how a ref could get burnt out reffing 1 game a week for 40 weeks. I agree though there needs to a a fall back league, like a mid week state based league like they used to have for under performing refs to keep reffing, maybe the lower performing NBL refs should go back onto the WNBL panel until they improve. In AFL for eg the umpires go back to their state league to keep umpiring and improve.

Hence the comment around realigning the competitions. 40 games a year, 1 game a week may not sound much but a few things A) the ref is on the court the full 40 mins, they don't get subbed out, they haves to be switched on all the time (we hope). B) most are not elite athletes in the slightest. Most didn't make it as players so took up the whistle. Again most have to train extremely hard to keep up physically with professional athletes!! (some admittingly don't) C) just about every referee in the NBL has a job and in most cases high level jobs. Juggling work commitments, family commitments, travel commitments including time of work is very draining and stressful. That is where the burn out comes from. The NBL referees don't have the same luxury as players who get to concentrate on basketball 100%. Players get massages, physios, recovery sessions etc. NBL refs aren't like AFL umpires who get trainers and masseurs pre-post game etc

I don't disagree with the effort and commitment side of things, the players have to deal with that too though.

There are some incredibly fit, dedicated, high quality officials out there, funnily enough generally speaking these are the ones who seem to be keen to ref all year round and seem to be the most consistent...

Unfortunately there is also an element of elitism amongst a few too who think its below them to ref ABA/WNBL regularly let alone see it as a way to keep their skills fresh and sharp.

2 weeks off is enough in my opinion to get a little bit rusty, longer just amplifies the problem.

ok by that comment i reckon the refs at marion have many many weeks off

Flipping has evolved like the game. Flopping wasn't tolerated but it also never really happened. It's now reaching epidemic proportions and the hardest thing for refs is a lot (unlike Mills/Wilson) there is some degree of contact. Referees must stop refereeing to the defenses reactions after contact and stick to the principle of making sure the offensive player actually breaks the defenders plane.

The current problem and it was mentioned above is 2 weeks without a game is enough to get rusty. Most level 2 and 3 referees are getting 1 NBL game every 6 weeks!!! This means it takes probably most of the 1st quarter to adjust and readapt to the speed of the game.

Their direction from above is better than ever, currently there just aren't enough games to go around to keep the panel consistently reffing hence the inconsistencies we are currently seeing.

So cut the numbers back? Simple.

We should only have as many referees as we need. I assume as number of teams/games has decreased number of NBL referees has remained the same.

Referees should at worst be refereeing every fortnight. There's also no reason a referee can't do a game in Melbourne on Friday and a game in Sydney on Sunday.

Cut the NBL panel in half, have those numbers filter down and watch the quality of refereeing increase at all levels.

2 issues, possible unfair dismissal ramifications, and 2 because referees have jobs and aren't professionals like players there are work commitments thus not all refs are available all times.

I have no idea about industrial relations but I've heard unfair dismissal is one of the hurdles with just "reducing" the panel.

what rubbish.

They're made redundant.

Just like the players of Brisbane, South Dragons, Canberra, Geeling, SE Melbourne Magic etc

The number of ref required has to align to the number of games played.

Players and coaches are full time employees and are dismissed all the time.

If you are not of x standard as a referee you don't get an NBL gig. Simple. How is that unfair when its based on the ability of the referee?

Yep so there you have it, not really the refs fault, there simply isn't the games going around to keep the refs in form and keep them refing consistantly, the problem with reducing panel numbers is you kill the motivation and opportunities for the officials at the level below.

No you raise the bar and make them work harder for a spot.

Just like right now in Victoria there would be 20 referees not refereeing NBL that are better then 3 of the 4 SA based NBL referes.

But that's a whole different arguement.

All I hear is excuses. Fact is we have too few games for too many refs. Drop the fat, limit gams to the elite, just like the players, and watch the standard rise.

By the way it's not a quality issue woth the officials, It's a lack of game issue. Is the state leagues were played over summer on a Wednesday night the std of officiating in the NBL would improve allot.

How do you determine the referees to make redundant when last season across the board 95% scored the same? If you do it by age that's discrimination, if you do it by sex same thing! It can only be performances based and as I said most scored the same within their range!

Totally different to a team folding and no jobs left within that organization.

Anon 081 what a load of rubbish. There is no way there are 20 referees in Melbourne who are better than 3 of the 4 currently in SA NBL. Other than the current 6 NBL and probably 3 of the VIC WNBL only panel no referee outside panel 1 for SEABL in VIC are better than the SA NBL group. That's utter rubbish.

You should probably name your 20 whom I guess you are suggesting are better than McDonald, Filmer and Durant! So go for it, this should be funny

It has become more possible Paul with games moving to predominantly Friday, Saturday and Sunday's. But games in new Zealand on Thursdays for instance kill the NBL as its a full days travel thus a full day off work and from my knowledge not all level 1's can take a full day off midweek.

There are a few ways to better appraise referees but a lot comes down to cost, availability of vision and removing geographical biased from the evaluating process. At present each game is evaluated in person by a local evaluator at the venue. This leads to inconsistencies in reporting because what 1 evaluators sees as a foul another evaluator in another state might night. Currently calling us split up into on and off ball, you could reduce this further to specific call types but would this serve any purpose? Who knows. What does need to occur is the evaluations be assessed and scored by one person so there is a consistent approach to the end of year order of merit. The next thing that needs to occur is more honest evaluating by both the referee and evaluator. Referees get to much benefit of the doubt re-calls. Personal opinion is evaluators aren't harsh enough when assessing performance.

here's a thought stop analyzing in detail and call it as you see it. What bothers me most they don't have a feel for the game as they have not played at that level themselves. Best refs I have seen use their feelings and intuition. This is lacking nowdays.

Just call it as you see it.

From my knowledge only Kevin Marsh has played in the NBL and then become a NBL referee so to say they don't have a feeling because they have never played at that level is a cop out because you have no examples to compare!!

Less refs and more games is the best option but at present it's not viable as NBL referees aren't 100% available. And in reference to "call it as you see it" I'd suggest 99% would say they do that but in the minds of the fan they are shit at that too

95% of refs scored the same because the old system of analysis wouldnt allow for refs to be marked out of their range for their level combined with the fact P.T completely destroying the levelness of the playing field and looked after his favorites and held back those who deserved a go.
By all acounts things are significantly better now.

Im convinced the Victorian Refs are the best by far but with only 1 local team its hard to give games without creating travel cost issues.
Its the sheer strength of the lower league; SEABL and before that Wed night Div system that's the main reason we have so many good Refs in Victoria.

Many on the WNBL panel are better than some on the NBL panel but geography and sheer numbers simply holds them back, or benefits weaker refs in other states.

There are only 2 on Victoria's WNBL panel that could get a gig at NBK in another state and they are Todd Spain and Jason Kelly. The next closest would be Chris Clarke. The rest not even close. Then the next two best up and comers are Jon Chapman and Daniel Battye, the rest don't have any feel for the game.

The vba championships on a Wednesday night finished approx in 1999, most of the current SEABL panel never refereed championship men so you can say it has any bearing now 12 or 13 years later. The seabl and a very string Friday night junior championship comp are however reasons why there is more depth in Victoria but they dOnt have as much talent as stated in the previous post

#anon153 you are on drugs, Kelly is too much of a hot head for NBL, Spain maybe, Andreola should have been there 5 years ago, clarke is barely ready for WNBL and the others arent even close.

Andreola shouldn't even be on SEABL! I think your the one on drugs and Kelly hasn't been a hot head for years. The post was in response to the comment that so many more Victorian refs should or could be in the NBL elsewhere which isn't true! But Andreola!!!!!! OMG! She is lucky to be in the top 10 outside of the NBL guys. That's funny

158, typical sexist bs comment, you have no idea what so ever, obviously you're a bitter ref who's been out ranked by a better ref who happens to be female.

Lol Kelly hasn't been a hot head in years, dude, that's hilarious. He was the most arrogant conceited seabl official last year by a mile and the powers know it.

If Kelly is a hot head and the powers that be no it how did he get the seabl championship game!!

Oh yeah I always get out ranked by Andreola, god dude it totally sucks.

Maybe you should go back and look at the rankings and note she finished top 10 and didn't get a men's final in either Big V or SEABL. Gee I wonder why that is?

lol ok Heidi, are you Chinese? China is the home of joke/corrupt referees

With the game over in OT with Melbourne up by 10pts China persisted to foul in unnecessary situations. Weird.

Are the Chinese refs doing a great job NO. But that's normal in China. Nothing to see here.