Since there aren't many juniors in reffing at the moment it would be a good idea to increase the pay - and extra incentive I suppose.

Junior refs probably earn a lot of the time what they should. Some of the juniors I have dealt with as a senior umpire(local basketball, not district) probably should just umpire for the experience and not get paid until they can show that they can take control and umpire according to the rules. In my experience it does make it a little difficult for some of these kids having a go because of peer pressure (umpiring mates from school etc) but with experience they will learn to separate the two. If a junior ref shows that they are there for the right reasons then sure, pay them well, but until they show responsibility and they're not just there for the money I think what they are paid is plenty. As they climb further up the umpiring ladder then they will be paid accordingly.......I think we need to remember when we first started in a paid job....now it seems like a pittence but back then I know I was rapt to be earning my own money. But then again, maybe we are dealing with a different generation where more and more kids get everything they could want and don't appreciate what it is they are paid for what they do.
PS I have broad shoulders and can take the flack I'm probably going to get for writing this.....but we are all entitled to an opinion.

Just to add another piece to what I have just written............I am a senior umpire, umpiring local basketball so that the juniors can learn. I certainly don't do it for the $5 per game I get paid but do it because I enjoy giving back to the sport I loved to play and can't anymore because of age and injury. I enjoy seeing the kids reffing and playing make it to where they want to go, be it umpiring district games or playing at a higher level.

Chain Of Events:

- Junior ref gets paid new rate of $14 for Under 14 Boys 1 ..... Senior ref gets paid $12.70 for 14 boys 1.... senior ref goes 'F**K THAT, WHY DOES A JUNIOR GET PAID MORE THAN ME, IM NOT REFFIN HERE ANYMORE'....

- Senior refs leave, and we have 12 year old kids doing abl reserves......

oh wait thats the state of refereeing at the moment. (except for the pay)

Parents should imagine what it would be like if someone started shouting att heir kids whilst playing sutff like "Crap Move" and stuff, but a lot are really stupid and can't see past their own noses

Any increase in umpires pay (ability aside) would need to be re-couped through an increase in game fees. I already pay around $8 a game, and that's plenty for me.

Perhaps if we all learned a little tolerance, we would have umpires improving at a faster rate. If they only had to focus on the game, instead of worrying about the coaches, players an spectators im sure they'd improve faster.

Exactly Doctor!

Anon #30196

"Anon #30194 that is one of the stupidest comment's I've ever read on this forum and believe me I've read a few."

You were quick to comment on this post. Lets take the Junior Ref and the Junior Burger cook.

Many Junior Ref's I see are just walking the court. They are slow behind the play, many don't make good position to make the good call, many are lazy and are watching what's going on over on other courts and in the stands. When watching your next junior ref, when the ball is in the keyway where is the ref that is near the ½ way line (the trail referee) standing? My bet is on the ½ way line not near the foul line were they should be because its too hard (too much effort) to get there and then get back to the base line at the other end. Most junior ref's don't know the rules and I wouldn't think they carry a rulebook in their bags to check rules and mechanics between games to improve their skills. Ask a junior ref to explain the carry rule to you and what rule does it come under in the rulebook and that will tell you if they have read the book.

Now if a burger cook was slow at cooking his burgers, watching the customers instead of cooking the burgers, don't know the difference between a steak sandwich and a hamburger or how to use the equipment because they didn't read the manual how long would they have their job?

I agree with more pay for ref's but they have to work for it by improving their game, being in the game when refereeing and learning the rules.

Players train to get better do Referees?

Kingman,

You asked a good timely question.

"Players train to get better do Referees?"

The answer is yes.

At the end of last year the position of SA Referees Director was replaced with SA Referees Development Coordinator.

His role is to provide education to all of our referees and this has begun.

Give it some time, it's only been going for two months.

You will see results, but not straight away. These training sessions both involve theory and practical and will last most of the year.

These are held monthly and are aimed at different levels.

For example, first Monday of the month is Level 0, second Monday Level 1, third Monday Level 2... You get the idea.

... third THURSDAY level 3, but I suspect that junior refs would not be in attendence (given how many years it takes to get to level 2).

But these courses are for the next level, are all ref's doing them? Players train twice a week to improve thier skills. Getting to the next level in refereeing is fine but ref's should be proficient at the level they are at first and for some much more training at that level is required

Bruce ur a knob and u couldn't ref to safe ur life. The fact that ur doing ABL is a joke to basketball in S.A. We have guys like Alex jordan, Michelle Whitehead, Daniel Troy doing ABL games. Now that is a joke. But at the same time how do we expect these young ref's get better if U get guys like Tristan and John and Paul Welbourne that don't wanna ref anything but ABL to get better. It has only been this yaer that the ref courses have started to begin. Rod Ridley was the worse thing that could have happened to umpiring in S.A. (Apart from Howard Nixon)
ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT THE REFFERING IN S.A. HAS NOT HIT ROCK BOTTOM YET.

Old School,

Don't worry about facts. They just get in the way. Tristan and Paul are two of the most helpful refs around. Both continually ref at Junior level and Paul even has been out on Saturday mornings to help junior refs. Tristan along with another Senior Panel referee have this year moved to Country areas due to work commitments and therefore aren't able to ref at any level.

The three young refs you mentioned have all worked very hard over the past year and deserve the opportunities they are getting. If they aren't up to it they won't get anymore games until they are ready, thats the advantage of having trained evaluators deciding careers as opposed to bitter old school refs out for a cheap shot.

nice comeback Daniel!!!
Old school seems to have some kind of a problem with welby although its not quite clear what this is???

How do you expect referees to get better without giving them challenging games.... you keep a referee on the same level game all the time and they will not improve. Your the joke mate.

Let me guess, your an old referee who was too crap to make it to any decent level, yet you think your gods gift to it and deserve better.........simply a CHUMP

Why aren;t you reffing Daniel. Fed up with all the criticism from all the faceless people here and the real abuse when you get on the court?

Get back to the topic

Sounds like sour grapes.

ABL isn't juniors - this topic was about junior ref's pay.

The answer is simple, referees in Adelaide are under paid from District Juniors up to Seniors' Reserves.

ABL pay rates are more standard across the land. But there are only a handful of people who referee at that level, so what's the good in only having them get paid appropriately?

Good point Nathan!

"But at the same time how do we expect these young ref's get better if U get guys like Tristan and John and Paul Welbourne that don't wanna ref anything but ABL to get better"

To Old School Ref, come out to Pasadena on a Friday night and watch Paul Welbourn reffing with the up-and-coming refs! Not only is he happy to ref with anybody, but he is also willing to go out (when he's got a break) and talk to the refs during time-outs!

Before anybody shoots their mouth off, make sure you have your facts in order.

Back to the TOPIC please!

This question/commnet is directed at swish:

Do u not think that any labour, unless voluntary, is deemed worthy enough to be paid for?

These junior refs, yes some may be slack, some there for other unknown agendas, etc, that you seem to think do not deserve pay until they can control a game or fully understand the rules- Do you not think that is unfair considering they are giving up their time, instead of possibly doing homework, and if young, their parents time to get them there? And not receive any reimbursement for it?

This comment/question is directed at kingman:

I worked at a pizza shop, and never got a manual on how to make pizzas and im pretty sure big chains like McD's and HJ's do not supply manuals on how to make their food. I do know one thing though, I learnt ON THE JOB, the same as others in the food retail industry do.

So the fact that you compare the two shows your ignorance, and singling out junior refs as not knowing rules, each and every one and their reference bears no significance to your argument, because there are many senior referees out there that probably do not know the exact point of the carry rule.
Knowing the rules is needed, but how much respect or good communication is built between a ref and player when you spit out some crap bout section and point instead of explaining the rule in a manner that they understand. I find as a player, referee and coach, the latter is much more efficient.

Player, referee and coach hey Quiet One.......my question to you is since when does a an apprentice earn what the master does? As a matter of fact it has nothing to do with age in my opionion.....you could be 40 years old and want to start umpiring BUT you still need to do the hours to get the experience which therefore = what you are worth. I'm yet to find an employer that will pay an employee for work that is not satisfactory. I was talking a probation period for SOME of these junior refs, not for them to do it for nothing. They show improvement they are rewarded....some of them just don't show that improvement. Like I said, I'm not reffing for the $5/game I am paid as a senior ref, I'm there so that these juniors can learn the trade.......unfortunately some of them are immune to constructive critism and apparently know all there is to know. But on the other hand I am proud to know that a handful of juniors I have had start with me are now umpiring at district level.... :)

ive got to agree, refs should get more pay, when the true juniors are still at school and umpiring its great to have extra money no matter the physical cost. when i was doing miniball/social i would umpire monday, tuesday, wed, 3-10 thursday 6-10 sat 8-1 (sometimes 2) i was putting alot in. yes it was for the money because at the time the game wasnt great we would get alot of flack when on the court.

but as you grow older you leave school go onto tertiary study get a job etc. i am almost finished my diploma of IT and i am also an IT lecturer @ mt barker TAFE. i get paid $44.45 an HOUR!!! now to get that kind of money umpiring i would have to umpire atleast 3 night solid. thats equilivant to 1 hours pay. now i know my rate of pay for my job is not the norm but its an example.

senior refs in essence are the older group of refs that are getting jobs. so lets put this into perspective.

umpire basketball, get a shitload f abuse yelled @ you, yes even when doing a good game. the other week i did a game at morphett vale had lawson brown from south adelaide congratulate me on my performance and in the past he has pulled no punches commenting on my standard. but then to have a south spectator think he is gods gift to basketball and tell me that it was a shit game. sorry to digress but just an example of how everyone is entitled to their opinion and refs get it no matter how they ref. but to get back to my train of thought. get minimal pay (about $30 for a friday night and im a level2 senior ref)

or

i could goto work for 1 hour teach IT and come home with an extra $15 in comparision.

youll say u gotta do it for the love of the game. would you love your job if the boss was constantly yelling abuse at you? if you had to work amazing long hours for 3rd world pay rates? i think you would find another job. and sorry to all the ABL/NBA refs, but the cost would not have to come solely from payers rates, what about advertising? promotions? level and equal pay rates accross the board (i was shocked to find out how much an ABL game is worth compared to div2/div3)

basa wonders why theres no junior/young aged senior refs or hardly giving their time....

its all about time management. Study 8-4 work 4-9 now u gonna spend 5 hours umpiring for a minimal pay rate while getting abused or are you gonna get a job, at a slightly better pay rate and not have to concerntrate/be abused.

as for the love of the game. i am studying, tell me how its finacially viable to travel from morphett vale to any further than marion, umpire 2 or 3 games (say $25) pay for petrol, dinner depending on the time, wear and tear on my equipment including my car and shoes. it suddenly is not viable. yet last year i was told if i want to ref after coming bck fro an injury i would have to travel the sort of distance of mvale -> dome. i umpire for the love of the game but it has to be finiaclly viable and fit into my time management regeim that is all.

umpires can umpire college bball $20-30 PER GAME

they can goto the country i went and umpired 2 games @ the other side of the pennisula i took home $180. hell i can goto strath and get $25 a game, and have no abuse.

why would i want to umpire for BASA you may ask. because of time management i dont have the time to be tripping all over the country, i have a job, study, and a child. im surprised i fit it in actually.

sorry for the long post but many items have been bought up here but the links between havent been made until now.

and in reply to swishes latest post:

they are put on probation @ the miniball level. its a form of probation called shadowing.

I agree they shold get paid what theyre worth, but isnt that grading system??


if your really a senior ref doing it for $5 a game your not even umpiring miniball. cause for a level2 @ miniball i believe the rate is $6 or $7 a game. and at that level they are still learning. yes but are still trying to find their way thru the mist. i would suggest social/saturdy morning (low level games). this way the umpire can see whats its like to be there, you can work intesively with the umpire.

infact what i would like to see is an 'umpires coach' no they dont yell at players when they dont agree with the play they are playing but intensively work with the umpire. i know many seniors are doing this now. but it HAS to be paid for. like an evaluator. infact thats how the evaluators shold be utilised. in my time i have been evaluated only a few times
1) level 0 course
2) level 1 course
3) level 2 course

as for these training sessions mentioned prior... sure if u want to pay the money, they are not training sessions but yet courses to obtain your next grading. there should be umpires coaches that do not cost the umpire any money... lets face it, thats what this thread is about the pay rate. why should the umpire have to have upwards of $40 for a course they may not be ready for yet???

when you start a job you dont pay for your induction rather your getting paid to do it. seems a bit stupid to be ass about face.

I think that the miniball pay rate should not change, it is where the juniors learn. It is also where u start to see the ones who are in it for the love of the game and who are in it for the money. Let those who only care about the money go and work at a fast food joint, and develop the ones who love the game, they will be eager to learn and are more likely to go all the way to the top.
Adult social pay rates should go up as the juniors are dealing with has beens with egos (possibly old school ref) who can't believe that a kid half their age is umpiring. It is the perfect breeding ground for building up a thick skin to deal with District, first the parents who are living through their children in the junior league and then some more has beens in the Senior league.
Lastly the District pay rate should go up by at least $5 per level achieved and Division playing, $10 if you are unlucky enough to be rostered onto ANY Southern Tigers male team. I say any as I was witness to an U10B1 game the other week where I saw the coach have a go at both officials on the game and the UIC.
I know this is long but I would like to finish by saying that it is only a select few I mean when I mention has beens in seniors, mostly they can be ok.

i think u guys shouldn't get paid more from shalinie