Go ahead and discuss then. What protocols are you calling by?

Here is some homework for you all: in this weekend's games, pick a stat, do a thorough count, and compare it to the box score...

You will be surprised.

Looks like we've found a satistician...

I think they do a very good job.

Mick, I would like to see you try. You wouldn't have the attention span to even get you through the first 2 minutes of quarter 1.

I reckon there is something wrong with people when they start questioning how well a statistician does his/her job. What are we going to evaluate next..Whether the water boys are doing an adequate job.

I understand the notion of a forum is to create banter and generate opinion, but this is just trivial.

I think many fans (myself included) don't always know the technical details that qualify a particular stat.

if these people are getting paid to do this job then i expect complete accuracy at all times!

how hard can it be?? there is only one ball and one referee call being made at any time!!

Of course Birdman, they are getting their $25.00 per game and should be technical experts at that rate of pay. Now the player who is getting 135k, I expect him to be completely accurate at ALL times. He should lose pay every time he misses a shot.

Did someone mention pay? What pay? Stats people do it for the love of the game as do most of the officials you see - and if you dont think it can be a difficult job then I suggest you give it a try, and after that, your opinion may then count for something!

in all honesty. our statisticians are pretty awful. yes they only get what $20/hr but perhaps that also reveals the professionalism of the league itself?

if nbl is to be a highly regarded, professional basketball league then they might wanna consider reviewing and bettering their stats recording system. just like the players has to train 15-20hrs a week and even more during pre-season, perhaps the support staff (stats, refs etc.) are not up to par with the level of our competition. and yes i understand they are barely getting paid but it only indicates that changes are needed.

it is a hard and very involved job and imo better training are necessary only for the betterment of the league.

I understand there are many people involved with the game that do it for the love as many NBL positions are unpaid, and hats off to every last one of them.

That's not what this is about.

I just meant to generate a discussion, as sometimes as a fan it's frustrating seeing "your guy" have a mammoth night across the board that isn't always reflected on the stat sheet.

While I didn't watch Cairns v Crocs last week, I noted that a one journo pointed out that Eddie Gill didn't get any assists on the box score, despite (albeit) anecdotal evidence suggesting otherwise, and it just got me thinking.

Over a beer with my brother recently we were discussing why NBL players average so few assists, I was pointing to the fact that many teams run more sets and therefore there is less opportunity for the "two man game", while he pointed towards the stats not what was actually happening on the court. Interesting.

1Ball, 1 umpire, 476 calls made for Perth alone in lazy weeks nbl not counting subs in/out. Have a look at the play by play list to see how hard it can be.

Calm down guys.

I understand the difference between an NBA assist and a FIBA assist.

But "Let's see you do it... you're not perfect either!" is the dumbest excuse I've ever heard.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm merely saying how often it is wrong.

I understand the limited resources the NBL has at its disposal but it doesn't change the fact that this is a professional league.

Mick, you cannot just pick one game and say its wrong because of that. Cairns may be the easiest club in the league to pick on according to what I've heard.

Provide some evidence of how "wrong" it is.

I've defended the stats guys here before, mainly on the basis that like some other said, the guys in the comfy seats often do not know what the statisticians are being asked to call.

I've been told in the past that our stats guys are pretty much world class, with one or two exceptions.

You saying the amount of major stats missed is "remarkable" requires evidence, not opinion. Is missing 2 rebounds out of 90 "remarkable"? is missing 3 assists out of 40 "remarkable"? Or are you suggesting that its more like 10-15 rebounds out of 90? Do you have any numbers?

If you go through the livestats play by play and there are missed shots without rebounds, and that happens 20 times, then that is remarkable. But, i really doubt you will find that and even then, you do not know how many went out of bounds ....

You should probably provide your interpretation of what constitutes awarding each of these stats too, just so we know that YOU are not the one who is getting it wrong

Boys. Boys.

I'm not criticising you or the people on your panel, I understand that they are understaffed and the unrelenting attention span that the role requires. I'm criticising the processes in place from the top that result in you "always having vacancies on your bench for new stats people". The NRL employs people with advanced mathematics degrees as part of their stats teams: it is important, it's not trivial (obv. the NRL has more cash to throw at these things...but it shows that it matters).

In the NBL, where the uphill battle against other professional sports is a slippery one every day, demanding anything less than perfection in all aspects of the game presentation is just doubling the height of the summit.

(By the way I also clearly stated above that the evidence I supplied was purely anecdotal, and from a sports journo. It's incredibility was implied and was just a talking point)

The NBL's motto should be "It's harder than it looks, let's see you do it better!" because that's pretty much every league-related person's bitterly ad nauseum stance on everything.

Specifically, IN MY STATISTICALLY UNPROFFESIONAL OPINION, would say the number 1 category missed is blocked shots, and there is less margin for error than the other stats, because there are so few of them the ommissions are more obvious.

those water boys are disgraceful last weeks game at two shots warren was asking for a drink and the water boy took almost 12secs to get it to him
that is disgraceful with the amount of money the get paid and the level in which the are at they should be alot more proffesional and take it alot more seriously rather then talking to their friends in the stands

Actually Mick, between your first post and your most recent one you have completely changed what you are criticizing.

In the first one you say the number of ommissions in lots of different stats categories are remarkable, ie, worth talking about. Um...err.... that is criticism of the stats being taken and the quality of work being done.

In your most recent post your criticize the NBL for the processes from the top.....

So validate your original statements.... cause then the debate can be interesting.

And BTW, the call of "see if you can do it better" is just silly - I agree with you on that one.

i did not say the stats people were awful i said the stats that are recorded were. it can be better, i think there's no denying that. i think there's a difference between hiring highly specialize personnel (like footy, rugby etc) and a volunteer...

that's my respect to the task of the job and expert bodies (eg. champion data) should be hired to maximize the accuracy and professionalism of the league.

Ok, now you are being an idiot.

Talk to the clubs who all keep their own stats in the AFL about how hit and miss Champion data's stuff is.

The difference between AFL, ARL and Basketball is that Statisticians in basketball are trained and accredited, none of the football codes have that level of scrutiny and review.

Being paid does not make you good. Being paid does not make you professional. Champion data are a function of media requirements in the AFL, not excellence on behalf of the league.

And you keep saying the stats are awful, but you cannot validate it. Go and validate your statements about the stats being poor. I do deny your premise.

ok, now you are been a dickhead. what up with the jab at people?

you are basically disrespecting experts who might do this for a living implying there's no difference or in fact it may be superior to hire a weekend volunteer (or slightly paid) over professional organizations?

yes I said the stats are awful, maybe that's a too strong of word used but telling me to validate it? why don't you validate that the stats system are good? as this is a pro sport, you do realize how important stats are as often it can determine how much a player is getting paid.

just like the nbl recently hired pros doing marketing for memberships, the same should be looked at for the refereeing program and stats program.

Mick Cedar: backboard pin block on Jeff Dowdell layup not recorded on stat sheet, third quarter, Crocs V Taipans.

MK/Mick,

Let's follow the logic of the thread.

a) You start the thread making enormous statements about how poor the stats are in the NBL
b) You follow that up with a number of statements saying that the stats are not up to scratch, that no one can deny that the stats are awful etc
c) You change tack on your criticism, saying its not the fault of the statisticians that the stats are bad (your premise again, but not yet established as FACT) but of the NBL for not scrutinizing them, or for not employing a dedicated company for keeping the statistics
d) When challenged to back up your original premise, you respond by saying no, the onus is on the people to prove you are wrong!!!!
e) When provided with facts that in one sport the stats people are both trained and accredited but in others they are not you discount that on the basis that the untrained and unaccredited people are "experts", because they work for an organisation that is paid to collect stats for media.

My friend, you are way out of your depth on this discussion.

I know exactly how Champion recruit their game day staff and some of them are very good, and some very poor. The vast majority of them, btw, are "weekend" statisticians - that is, its the only role they have with Champion - not so dissimilar to your so named "weekend volunteers".

Just because you work for Champion Data (or Sports Data for NRL Media, or NRL stats in Sydney, the company partly owned by the NRL) does not make you good at your job just because you are paid at the weekend to keep stats! Do you understand that?

That's one of the reasons ALL AFL clubs and NRL clubs separately keep their own stats.

So back to your point, and yes the onus is on you to prove/validate your original statements, tell us how bad the stats are, with facts, not opinion.

first of all I actually worked with Champion data people and know them pretty well. secondly instead of asking us to prove us right which I am pretty sure we can find missing stats, why don't YOU go and find out how many stats are missed then we'll come back and continue the discussion.

I don't know what up with the rest of the world's stats, maybe it's bad? don't know all I know is NCAA seems accurate and so does the NBA.

oh yeah not to mention both organization spends 100 of thousands of dollars every year in bettering the accuracy of their stats system. oh btw according to you, just by spending that money doesn't make it good...

Mick,

You are a douchebag!

Don't compare NRL and NBL stats. Not only are they totally different sports, basketball has much more in-depth statistical categories.

Advanced Mathematic Degrees? For what, to understand the language of dipshit football players (admit it, they aren't the smartest tools in the shed)?

Just give it up. Don't critise unless you can do better.....douche!

MK, you are floundering in a sea of stupified hypothesis.

It's just lovely that you work with some people from Champion, really lovely. But you haven't responded to the FACT that the vast majority of the people who keep stats for them are "weekend" statisticians, paid to go to game to keep stats - not unlike the people who do basketball.

(oh and you have not commented on champions at game software, which is just rubbish, but you know that cause you work for them....)

Confronted with the fact that basketball trains and accredits its people while other codes do not, you have no response, that would be zero, zilch, nada.

You start a thread, which becomes a call for change (the NBL needs to use champion data, who you now reveal you have a conflicting relationship with), and you still cannot PROVE there is a problem to justify the change. Compelling eh?

And now you reckon that because I said being paid does not make you good (there are a few crap teachers in education systems and they are all paid) that I have claimed that investing money is not good. No, you cannot draw that conclusion from that premise. No one with any capacity for reasoning or logic would draw that conclusion.

And having studiously watched the reptile rumble #2, you find one stat you THINK is missed. One, out of 500 or so. AND, it may not be missed, its just your opinion. AND there is a block against Dowdell, but its awarded to Greg V, so you might just be WRONG, which would be consistent with how you've been right through this thread.

Again idiot. If you start a thread with a statement of FACT, as you tried to, you need to establish the fact, not us.

Two years ago the SA Statisticians Panel produced a training video consisting of a WNBL game with the stats call in real time. That training video has been reviewed by the(W)NBL and used many times as a training aid and no one has ever found an error in the call.

There are several areas that can cause errors -
The stats bench is rarely in the optimal position which can cause the occasional error because of paralax problems;
Uniforms that do not have high contrast numbers (the West Coast Waves were just about impossible to read);
Congestion around the ball and under the basket.

As mentioned in previous posts the stats personel have extremly tight definitions of what constitutes an assist, steal, block etc. If you are interested then your Club Chief Statisitian has one.


Mike/MK - before shooting your mouth of do some homework and you won't look like an idiot.

sixers should sign tucker