This article certainly made my blood boil. I absolutely hate it when racism or sexism is blamed for decisions.

Just because it is expected to affect 100% blacks does not make it racist anymore than if I was to say that the NBA is racist against whites / asians because there are 76% of the players that are black!

I don't know what has motivated the age restriction, but the comment that 10yr vets are losing their positions to High School kids is probably closer to the mark. So in a way it is probably just politics...

Won't this be a hot topic around the NBA. I think the age limit is a good idea. Not all High Schoolers who declare are going to be drafted, and once they declare and aren't drafted the only option for them then is to play O/S. In doing that they are giving up an education, which is something they need later in life, and should, unfortunately, injury cut short their career. Im sure they all dream of the millions to be made in the NBA to help their family, but playing here for example, where there is little money to be made due to the ex rate and salary cap, wouldn't help their families much more than the college education and exposure at that level could generate for them later should they wish to play elsewhere.

I hope someone understands what I wrote, cause i'm not sure I do!

I think it's a great topic and I think Jermaine has some pretty valid points. What has brought this age restriction on?? What proof does Stern have that would make him even consider bringing in a age requirement? Maybe it's not race, but he should really have a reason for doing it, especially if he can't prove that brining in High Schoolers is detrimental to the game, anyone heard of Lebron James???
I think David Stern is going to have to come up with some pretty good answers or this will definitely go to court if he tries to implement it.

I think Jermaine's main point is that it's race-related rather than explicitly racist. He raises the point of an 18 year old playing elite-level soccer too.

Coach K, you're arguing FOR an age restriction based on whether or not a player might fail in the draft and have to go to Europe (I'd rather be in Europe than the US!), while these kids can join the US Army from the age of 17. Getting KIA vs accepting the lowly option of being paid to play basketball in Europe... gee, tough choice there!

If they can play the game and entertain the crowds, give them the opportunity to earn the money. Why begrudge them the chance to make it big and help their family and friends?

'Just because it is expected to affect 100% blacks does not make it racist...'

The age restriction would have a disparate impact on NBA players meaning - in Australia at least - it could constitute indirect descrimination.

There is a reasonableness limitation which applies as a defence to indirect discrimination, but I can see an opportunity for litigation (assuming the US legal system is at all similar to Australia's in this respect).

Pundits seem to be suggesting that they will go for an age limit of 20 for players entering the draft. It appears that the players' association is trading this for other beneficial agreements with the NBA. 5 of the 24 All*Stars this year came direct from high school (kobe, mcgrady, KG, amare, lebron).

I think i got what your saying coach k. Going to NBA straight away takes away the option of college, for those players that don't get picked up they have no option, but if they go to college they still have the option of playing NBA.

Basically I think that is where the problem lies... is nominating for the draft really a professional? If they are picked up then they can't play college, fair enough...

but if they aren't then they have not entered into any professional contract? should that mean they can still go to college? Tough to say they can't, and i think that is the problem, not that young players are bad for the game, clearly there are some that have made it straight from school, how many high school kids have nominated and not made it? you don't hear those stats, it's like game winners, everyone remembers the bucket you made on the buzzer, but how many did you miss on the buzzer to lose in previous games?

but if this was changed every1 would nominate every year just in case, and then play college if they didn't make it.

hope that makes sense.

the unfortunate situation in the US now is that although the NBA's proposed age restriction rules would affect approx 100% black kids, the actual rule itself is not discrimnatory on a race level, only on a age level, therefore panther, NBA would have no trouble if it went to court, intention aside. It is the intention that Stern is going to have the most trouble explaining to the public. There hasn't been any one convincing thread of evidence thus far.

(Isaac, that Freddy Adu kid is only 14-15 the article says. That's crazy.)

although there hasn't been a european enter the NBA under 20yrs could it be pre-emptive action against an influx of Euro's?

The rule does discriminate against race because it has a disparate impact on NBA players - it's just not direct discrimination.

I think that they should not introduce the age requirement. However cant the NBA setup its own University type program???? If they do this then the 18 yr olds that get drafted but go on to fail or get injured have something to fall back on. How many High School kids get drafted and dont go on to succeed in the NBA anyway???? I think most that get drafted out of HS go on to make a good career from their basketball.

Fact is some basketballers White, Black or any race are just not smart. Should they be penalised because they are great athletes but not able to go to college or talented enough to not need to.

This would be like saying to someone that is able to get a good job without going to Uni that they cant get the job JUST on the basis they are not old enough.

Could be good for Australian basketball though. Imagine Lebron James or Kobe Bryant opting to play a few yrs in the NBL for the australian lifestyle until the hit the 20 age mark hahaaha.

d - read carefully what i said,

"the actual rule itself is not discrimnatory on a race level, only on a age level"

yes, i agree it still is a form of indirect discrimination however the rule, should stern wish to implement it, couldn't be stopped on the basis of racial discrimination tho.

I suppose one benefit of the system would be it would stop some of these kids going through their last years of school not studying, hoping for an NBA contract.
We only hear about the success stories, like ITA said. Where are those kids now that applied for the draft out of school, and didn't get picked up? We dont hear about those players.

Why could it not be stopped on the basis of racial discrimination?

Indirect discrimination is prohibited under Australian law - and more likely than not US law as well.

d

again i think you need to read carefully as i think Dr Dunkenstein explained to you it is not a racial issue.

let's put it simply... to say "palyers under 20 can't play" is an age issue. whereas to say "black players under 20 can't play" is a racial issue.

secondly... you cannot assume anything. If you are going to refer to "Australian law" and then "US law" you really must cite the legislation you are referring to.

Because the restriction is age related. In the current status quo it is indirect discrimination, but who's to say next year juzovaqibekistan (small western european country) isn't goin to produce a 7"4', 280 pound, 18 year old with undenyable range.

I dont disagree that its race related, but i just dont think it could be stopped on those grounds.

It would be similar to trying to implement a rule in local ball saying you have to be under 70yrs of ae to play, and then arguing that it discriminates against ppl with Grey Hair. Although in effect it does, the rule makes no mention of hair color.

Dr D, probably am picking on a fairly petty point (Post # 29852) but there has been a number of Euro Players drafted before they turned 20.

Darko Milicic - Drafted 2003
DOB - 20/6/85 (still not 20)
Nenad Krstic - Drafted 2002
DOB - 25/7/83
N Tskitishvili - Drafted 2002
DOB - 14/4/83
Maciel Lampe - Drafted 2003
DOB 5/2/85
Pavel Podkolzin - Drafted 2004
DOB 15/1/85

I know these are only exceptions but have all still been drafted well before they turned 20.

I agree that Stern needs to explain better why he wants an Age Restriction. I too feel that it is more along the likes of why do we want 30 year olds with 8 or 9 years experience suddenly find themselves out of the league at the expense of a 17 or 18 year old. Clubs are basically committed to their 1st Round Choices for 3 years and if they don't get it (See Darko & Skeeter) they take up valuable bench space that a role player (who the Coach might actually use) can't get to.
I have always found it surprising that players who have never proved anything in the NBA can get a guaranteed 3 year contract, yet a number of experienced performers have to ply the trade in lower leagues or Oversease until injuries give them another chance (even then at a fraction of what a 1st round pick gets)

Shutup!! - good point. I will be more carefully in what i write.

Here is the section i was talking in reference to from the ESPN story

"How many European/foreign basketball players have entered the NBA draft out of high school without professional experience? None. Even if they're younger than 20, they can play professionally in Europe before entering the NBA, like Darko Milicic (who was 18 his rookie season)."

But that does support one theory, that stern may be using it as pre-emptive action preventing an abundance of young euro ballers.

Any word on a reply from Stern???

The difference is that you are legally allowed to discriminate on the basis of hair colour but you are not legally allowed to discriminate on the grounds of a person's race - either directly or indirectly.

Indirect discrimination occurs a policy or rule appears to be neutral or fair, but it in fact has an unequal effect on certain groups of people.

The NBA age restriction appears to be fair - and the NBA may have good intentions - however, if the rule has a disparate impact on players, then it can be a form of indirect discrimination.

Such discrimination in South Australia is prohibited under the Equal Opportunity Act of South Australia and there have been a number of Australian cases regarding indirect discrimination that have made it as far as the High Court of Australia.

This of course has no relevance to the NBA matter as it's a completely different jurisdiction. I am merely offering food for thought on the assumption that the US legal system would be similar to ours in this respect.

I'll leave it at that...

Racism, puh-lease. What a joke.
I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between the above mentioned bargaining with the Players Assoc, and the fact that as pay has gone up and age has come down, the NBA is quickly turning to sh*t. The kids that go straight from high school, white or black or whatever, are going to deal far better with being instant millionares if they have at least some sort of normal adult, 'real life' existence beforehand. Of course it's not going to solve all of the NBA's considerable problems, but it's something that can be done to help.

d

It would seem to me that section 85Q (division 6,part 5a) of the Equal Opportunity Act of South Australia (1984, reprint no7) renders your argument invalid for circumstances of sport related discrimination by age, given that it specifically indicates that "the exclusion of persons of particular age groups from participation in a competitive sporting activity" is not unlawful.

cheers.

ouch!

ITA, that is ruthless, netherless i'd better put my two cents in.

Dr D, i think Stern is more concerned with their local talent, he would welcome more Euro players, as it would increase NBA's global marketing.

Frank, you seem dead on, its more about how adjusted these kids are.

D, you have missed the point twice now, perhaps you need to play split line some more before you commit, otherwise you'll get burnt.

For Every Jermaine O'Neal or Lebron James there are a 1,000 hommies who think they can make it at NBA level cos mama says so or their boys think they're the real deal.

So Jermaine says don't go to school, just shoot jays and work on your handle.
What phhooey!

If they don't make it is Jermaine O'Neal going to pay their welfare payments because they missed out on geting a college degree. Is he going to place them into their local 7/11?

Jermaine need stop with the bucket bongs.

there is another good link here.

isaac, how do you create links and quotes with this forum? if this is the wrong formatting can you fix it for me?

The theory behind the proposed 20-year-old age limit is that Diop would have gone to college for at least two seasons and scouts would have been able to identify his slow feet and a lack of talent. Cleveland would have spent its money elsewhere.

And that is why the rule is being proposed. It isn't about LeBron, Kobe or keeping young black guys down. It's about protecting owners from Diop, Darko Milicic and Kwame Brown.

The flaw in the NBA's logic  besides being completely un-American and running contrary to a talent infusion that has re-energized the league  is that it ignores the fact that franchises made draft blunders when everybody went to college, too.

Four-year guy Michael Olowokandi was the No. 1 pick overall in 1998, remember. Sam Bowie was famously taken ahead of Michael Jordan. Anyone remember Joe Barry Carroll? Dennis Hopson?

But that's the draft. It's a crapshoot. Even four years of major college ball doesn't assure anything.

Some of the most confusing picks of the last few years haven't been high school seniors, but college ones. Trajan Langdon, Ed O'Bannon and Cherokee Parks all got lottery money. Tayshaun Prince and Josh Howard didn't.

NBA owners think the age limit will help them avoid drafting a high-priced, low-quality player.

That, in itself, isn't racist. But it isn't sound thinking either.

NBA

I think Whitlock's article is better argued then the first one:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/050414&num=1

I think the real issue is not the high school players. These players take time to develop, but more often than not have ended up being worth the wait for their pro teams.
Most of these turn into good pros, examples being:
- Al Harrington,
- Stephen Jackson (he never went to college, but wasn't drafted either)
or All-Stars:
- Kevin Garnett,
- Tracy McGrady,
- Kobe Bryant,
- Amare Stoudamire,
- Lebron James,
- Jermaine O'Neal
some have potential for greatness:
- Josh Smith,
- Shaun Livingston,
- Sebastian Telfair,
- J.R. Smith,
- Al Jefferson
and some haven't (or didn't) live up to the hype:
- Jonathon Bender,
- Darius Miles,
- Desagana Diop,
- Korleone Young

The real problem I see is the young Europeans (and other internationals) entering the NBA. DOn't get me wrong, I love the Euro players, and being of European background myself I like to see the NBA 'going global', but its becoming rediculous. A number of young Europeans have been drafted by NBA teams recently without having a scoring average in double figures or even getting starting roles on their teams in Europe. I know scoring isn't everything and that it's who finishes the game that really counts, but most of tehse guys are simply not ready for The League yet (if ever). They would be better suited to wait once drafted (a la Peja Stojakovic) before coming to the US until they mature, both physically and mentally. Some international players who I believe are (or were) not ready (or ever will be) for the NBA when they were drafted are:
- Nikoloz Tskitishvili
- Darko Milicic
- Pavel Podkolzin
- Slavko Vranes
- Maceij Lampe
- Bruno Sundov
- Desagana Diop
- Wang ZhiZhi

It could just be that these players require more of an oportunity to 'show their stuff' in games, but they seem like they haven't earned this opportunity by showing their skills in practice. Sure, nobody's a 'sure thing', yet the following internationals seem to me like they belong right now:
- Andrei Kirilenko
- Dirk Nowitzki
- Peja Stojakovic
- Tim Duncan (although considered to be an American by most)
- Tony Parker
- Manu Ginobili
- Zydrunas Ilgauskas
- Eduardo Najera
- Vladimir Radmanovic (despite his consistent inconsistency!)
- Yao Ming
- Nene`
- Samuel Dalembert
- Primoz Brezec
- Nenad Krstic
- Marko Jaric
and a few others.

Maybe the league should focus on not giving guys such as these international, high school, and college (such as):
- Kendrik Perkins
- Qyntel Woods
- Joe Forte
players false hope that they can be NBA stars rather than just imposing an age limit. It's not right to shatter young guys dreams, but some of these guys need to realise that they just might not be good enough for the NBA. The age limit might work, but I can't tell for sure..... What do others think?

I strongly believe that no one should have any right to restrict when or what age a player gets to enter the NBA. I believe if a person has the talent and potential they should be able to be drafted to the NBA no matter what age they are.

YES the NBA IS racist. VERY much so.
Look at the All-Star game.
NO European-American players at all!!!
Have an Asian-Yao
Have a European-Nowitzki
Have an African-Nash
but unless Kidd is melato the rest are black.
Peole whine about MLB having a few (according to them) blacks in baseball and THAT is racist but THIS isn't??????
Can you say DOUBLE STANDARD?

Thats because most of the best nba players are black dude. How is that racist...?

Part of it's based on votes, so blame the public?

The omissions (Deron, Baron, Jackson, GWallace, etc) are mostly black too. Big deal.

Which Europeans should've made it but didn't?

African - Nash????

Nash was born in Sth Africa.

Johannesburg to be exact.

Got a bit bored, but just to prove a point, that RD726 has no idea!

Ladies & Gentlemen, your 2009 NBA All-Star Game brought to you by Colgate Bright White,

West
Chris Kaman (LA Clippers) - C
Brad Miller (Sacramento Kings) - PF
Luke Walton (LA Lakers) - SF
Mike Miller (Memphis Grizzlies) - SG
Luke Ridnour (Seattle Sonics) - PG

Bench
Brent Barry (San Antonio Spurs) - SG/SF
Channing Frye (Portland Blazers) - PF/C
Matt Harpring (Utah Jazz) - SF/PF
Joel Przybilla (Portland Blazers) - C
Matt Bonner (San Antonio Spurs) - SF/PF
Dan Dickau (LA Clippers) - PG
Wally Szczerbiak (Seattle Sonics) - SG/SF

East
Jeff Foster (Indian Pacers) - C
David Lee (New York Knicks) - PF
Mike Dunleavy (Indiana Pacers) - SF
Matt Carroll (Charlotte Bobcats) - SG
Kirk Hinrich (Chicago Bulls) - PG

Bench
Scott Pollard (Boston Celtics) - C
Troy Murphy (Indiana Pacers) - PF
Jason Kapono (Toronto Raptors) - SF
Pat Garrity (Orlando Magic) - SG/SF
Brian Scalabrine (Boston Celtics) - SF/PF
Jason Williams (Miami Heat) - PG
Adam Morrison (Charlotte Bobcats) - SG/SF

Ummm - Channing Frye?

Okay cheers. Born in Africa, plays in the US, and nationalised for Canada..


Tony Greig's love child?

Which Europeans should've made it but didn't?